Nov 15th, 2009 at 10:28 am
The Surreal World
I’m in a bit of a hungover haze at the moment, but as I understand it the two big new attacks on the President are that he (a) bows at formal meetings with Japanese people and (b) wants to see terrorists tried for their crimes. Is that right? Really? Strange times.
46 Responses to “The Surreal World”
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November 15th, 2009 at 10:36 am
(b) isn’t really new. One of the two main parties is now proudly pro-torture, anti-habeas corpus. The right to torture people in secret has become one of the most cherished values of conservatives, so it is not surprising to see them freak out today.
November 15th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Hey, at least a secret Muslim is well mannered enough not to puke all over a major Japanese figure at a banquet.
November 15th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Real man Presidents greet foreign leaders with roundhouse kicks to the head, as would President Chuck Norris.
November 15th, 2009 at 11:15 am
> Hey, at least a secret Muslim is well mannered
> enough not to puke all over a major Japanese figure
> at a banquet.
Getting sick, particularly when traveling/eating in a foreign country, is not a matter of “manners” and IMHO it is quite rude to make that implication.
Unless you prefer George the Second’s practice of staying, eating, and sleeping on Air Force One as much as possible and flying out of countries he visited as soon as he could (and far too soon for politeness much less diplomacy)?
Cranky
November 15th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Obama really should’ve just kissed Akhito’s ass. It would’ve sent the same message, but at least he would’ve done so in an American fashion
November 15th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Republicans are afraid, Matt. Big bad terrorists scare them. Have you ever met a tough Republican? I haven’t.
Glenn Greenwald hasn’t either.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/11/14/terrorism/index.html
November 15th, 2009 at 11:38 am
On bowing, the President (not this one, any) has traditionally not bowed to royalty, period. I find it fascinating that Obama bowed to the Saudi King, but still tries to deny having done so. This indicates that at some level, the White House recognizes that they have breached tradition.
On terrorists, it’s simple: those captured on US soil, under police procedure, should get civilian trials. Those taken in intelligence ops or military ops on foreign soil should get military tribunals.
Why? Simple: rules of evidence issues. Neither of these are hard, no matter how much hand waving you use to attempt to rule them out of the conversation.
November 15th, 2009 at 11:44 am
James, bowing in Japan is the equivalent of a handshake here. A failure to bow would be the equivalent of kicking someone in the nuts. You’re just a paranoid little man looking for conspiracy theories to make yourself feel better.
November 15th, 2009 at 11:48 am
James,
Rules of evidence issues? Care to elaborate? Are you suggesting that the evidence presented in a civilian trial will be insufficient to find KSM guilty as charged? Or simply that it would be humiliating for the US to have to argue, while attempting to enter evidence into the record, that it doesn’t matter if some of the evidence was obtained by patently illegal means, no matter which standard you go by.
November 15th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Bowing deeply at the waist while your counterpart doesn’t bow at all is the Japanese equivalent of kissing an ass here. Obama was signaling his deference and respect for a superior, whether he meant to or not.
November 15th, 2009 at 11:53 am
‘Getting sick, particularly when traveling/eating in a foreign country, is not a matter of “manners” and IMHO it is quite rude to make that implication.’
Fair enough – but bowing is a matter of manners, and our president, unlike far too many of his critics, seems to understand that.
Of course, by using the phrase ’secret Muslim,’ I thought my remarks were prima facie for amusement only – after all, the contrast between throwing up on someone as a contrast to bowing does seem like a comparison rife for humor, not serious disclaimers that illness should be treated with sympathy.
November 15th, 2009 at 11:57 am
‘I find it fascinating that Obama bowed to the Saudi King, but still tries to deny having done so.’
Personally, I prefer the tender hand holding of a president with royalty, myself. Though those kommie kissers (commie cissers?) still manage to make the idea of the brotherhood of man seem fairly dirty.
November 15th, 2009 at 11:58 am
On bowing – past Presidents simply didn’t bow to royalty, period. It was a “we are a Republic” thing, which I guess most of you here have forgotten.
#9 – when you are arrested by the police, there are procedures that are not followed on a battlefield – Miranda rights being the most obvious. Any evidence we have against people captured by intelligence ops and/or military ops is simply not “clean” from the perspective of a civilian trial – which is why we have military tribunals.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Well, KSM wasn’t arrested on a battlefield, but in an apartment, correct? People who are actually arrested in a battlefield shouldn’t be tried in civilian courts, but that doesn’t appear to be the case for most of the people we’re about to try. If it really is a “War On Terror” we’re fighting, these people could be detained as prisoners of war for the rest of the conflict without any trial, military or civilian. But of course one isn’t allowed to torture prisoners of war, which is why the Bush Administration created the “enemy combatant” designation out of whole legal cloth, I presume.
Our civilian courts have generally been quite effective at securing convictions for terrorists. That includes terrorists who were investigated and detained not by ordinary police, but by intelligence agencies. The Federal Rules of Evidence don’t draw any distinction between people investigated by the police or by intelligence agencies, so Mr. Robertson’s argument there is utterly without a legal basis or rationale.
As for Japan, everybody bows to everybody there and to imply Obama is destroying republican virtue by bowing to Hotoyama, the emperor, or anyone else is absurd. You’ve got a better argument with the Saudis, although I’d have a hard enough time shaking hands with their king personally.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
James Robertson says:
On bowing, the President (not this one, any) has traditionally not bowed to royalty, period. I find it fascinating that Obama bowed to the Saudi King, but still tries to deny having done so.
And, far as I know, of all the presidents, only George Bush was photographed kissing a foreign leader (a Saudi Royal) on the lips, or, for that matter, walking with the same fellow while holding his hand. (I think Dubsy was also the first President to attempt giving a German Chancellor a public backrub, speaking of potentially inappropriate behavior).
American Presidents have, traditionally, assumed superiority over every leader everywhere. That’s bullshit, always has been. No American anywhere is automatically ’superior’ to anyone of different nationality, period, no matter how much contrary drivel the average American has had stuffed down his throat (or up his exit portal) during his formative years.
The protocol of mutual respect is far more important than is the protocol of artificially inflated ego. Kudos to Obama, the first president in a long, long time (if not the first pres. ever) to recognize that.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
I don’t know James, does the Pope count as royalty? If so, President Eisenhower apparently didn’t get your magisterial pronouncement – when he bowed.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2009/11/dwight-d-eisenhower-bowing-hour.html
This whole “no POTUS has ever bowed” also seems to be factually wrong…not that that deters conservatives.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Yeah, but Obama bowed lower.
And it wasn’t the Pope, who is at least kinda sorta a Christian, but a pagan emperor.
So, um . . . .
November 15th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
As Invigilator observes, the conservative argument is more subtle than Matt’s made out: It’s not that Obama bowed, it’s the number of degrees from the vertical that’s the important thing.
It’s weird how wrapped up conservatives are in appearances. They seem to have completely abandoned Teddy Roosevelt’s advice in favor of Yosemite Sam: “I speak LOUDLY, and I carry a BIGGER stick!”
November 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
I find it fascinating that Obama bowed to the Saudi King, but still tries to deny having done so.
That’s because he DIDN’T, you nincompoop. He leaned in to say something to Abdullah, who is shorter than he is.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
past Presidents simply didn’t bow to royalty, period. It was a “we are a Republic” thing, which I guess most of you here have forgotten.
Apart from the point that the bowing claim is factually wrong, what’s more antithetical to the “we are a Republic thing”: Obama bowing as a sign of respect, because that’s what you do in Japan, or Bush claiming the authority on his unreviewable say-so alone to designate someone an enemy combatant and disappear them, with no habeas corpus rights, because that’s what unaccountable tyrants do?
It’s one more example of the right-wing’s putting issues of superficial appearance over actual substance. Taking that to its logical conclusion, the right gets exactly what it deserves: Sarah Palin.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
how does Obama the meekly-bowing square with the idea of Obama the arrogant ?
November 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Obama didn’t bow to the Emperor of Japan you ninnies!
He just assumed his usual position in foreign policy, preparing himself to get butt fucked by whomever.
I wonder if Putin is the jealous sort?
November 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Might Obama also understand that it is a sign of respect to an elder to bow deeper?
Time to stop the hissy fits, people.
November 15th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
And arr @ 21:
Bush’s claims of Presidential authority were based on a reading of our Constitution which really has nothing to do with our being a democratic republic.
As I’m sure even you know the US fought for our freedom from a King and our political traditions are innately anti-monarchical. Always have been.
That is the reason American Presidents have traditionally not bowed to Kings and Emperors.
And if we wish to accept the inane argument that Obama was simply being “polite” then we must also accept the Japanese etiquette which dictates that two equals bow equally deeply and only an inferior bows more deeply than his superior.
I prefer my theory that he’s just getting ready to drop trou.
November 15th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
James, your life would be lived with a lot more dignity if you did not spend it mindlessly parroting the talking points of the right wing “outrage of the day.”
We know you do not actually have an opinion about foreign protocol or legal issues related to counterterrorism. All you have is a set of talking points you feel socially obligated to repeat.
November 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Re: It was a “we are a Republic” thing, which I guess most of you here have forgotten
No, it was more of a “We are the BIG DOG on the block, so kiss my @$$” thing, and I’m happy that Obama, whatever my political disagreements with him, is smart and decent enough to stop it.
As for the Pope, I’m pretty sure that technically the thing to do is kiss his ring, but there might be some seperation of church/state issues there.
November 15th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
re ChooChoo at 25:
I gave a specific example of an anti-democratic, indeed tyrannical, policy implemented by a president, and your response is simply to robotically spout that “our political traditions are innately anti-monarchical. Always have been.” As I’m sure even you know, that fails to address the point.
And what is “inane” isn’t “the argument that Obama was simply being polite.” What’s inane is the focus on this as an issue of any substance at all. What’s inane is the notion that Obama was actively signaling submissiveness or inferiority, or that anyone interpreted his action that way.
November 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Wait, who gives a fuck?
If the emperor wants to talk shit, it’s going to be “Hey, remember that time your dad unconditionally surrendered the whole nation to us? And then formally renounced his divinity? And where’s this empire you claim to be the emperor of? Oh, we took it from you and kicked your ass? I forgot!”
November 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Okay: bowing is the polite thing to do when you meet a prime minister, taxi-cab driver dressed in a snappy uniform with white gloves, biochemistry professor, surreal TV game-show hostess, farmer, or whatever. If the point here is that Obama bowed, and Akihito didn’t, then that’s Akihito being rude, not Obama being obsequious. Obama cannot control Akihito’s muscles.
Maybe we should make allowances for a 75-year old man’s flexibility; I don’t know how the emperor’s health is (for all I know he’s as fit and flexible as a finch, but I just don’t know). Or maybe it’s traditional that the emperor doesn’t bow back. Or maybe Akihito is just jerk who is conceited about his position as emperor.
The point is, if the emperor didn’t bow back, that his business, not Obama’s.
November 15th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
The irony is that I never would hear about this shit at all if I just read the news like a normal person instead of reading blogs. Thanks a lot, Matt, for keeping me informed about the stupid wastes of time and anger coming from the other side.
November 15th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
So let’s see arr @ 28… just what does Bush’s bushit have to do with Obamasan’s kowtowing like an over eager plebe?
You might as well say Lincoln illegally closed newspapers so don’t bother what Obama does.
Seriously, do you think one has anything to do with another?
You Obabots’ standard response to any criticism of their god is to say “But Bush was worse!”.
Even if that were true in each and every case it is irrelevant.
Cheese and crackers you rubes… Obama is a lying fuck up and it doesn’t make him less of one because Bush was one too.
Because Bush was a war criminal then Obama gets a pass on his crimes?
Have you lost all sense of decency?
November 15th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
choo choo:
Because Bush was a war criminal then Obama gets a pass on his crimes? Have you lost all sense of decency?
We’re all familiar with Bush’s crimes. Obama crimes? Can you name one?
November 15th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
We’re all familiar with Bush’s crimes. Obama crimes? Can you name one?
Dude, don’t you see? He bowed to the head of state of an ally. There is no greater crime.
November 15th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
what’s really hilarious of course is that if Obama didn’t bow the same idiots would be going on about what an arrogant jerk he is, does he think he is a king or something…
November 15th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
southpaw:
We’re all familiar with Bush’s crimes. Obama crimes? Can you name one?
“Dude, don’t you see? He bowed to the head of state of an ally. There is no greater crime.”
Shit. How the hell did I miss that one? Damn, must have been one of those fog days. Not enough coffee, maybe. Or maybe it’s because I flunked out of that Republican Madrassa all those years ago. Gotta be one of the above when the obvious slides right past, unnoticed.
November 15th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
What the heck are you talking about ChooChoo child?
I’d take Obama’s BOW with some vision on how to set this messed up ship straight over the incompetence and farce that 8 years of Bush-Cheney gave us. That’s when we took a thriving US economy and forced it to BOW. That’ when we took our constitution and forced it to BOW.
Some people think that if they just shriek loud enough we will all forget the cataclysm that was Bush’s gift to the next President. Well, some of us don’t. Maybe you can make enough noise that the majority forgets and you get another chance to play train. The next time I’m sure you guys won’t be BOWing, you’ll have America GROVELLING on its knees between the only solutions you know for every thing that ails us: tax cuts and wars.
November 15th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
my ipod batteries died when driving the other day, so instead of a bookmp3 i listend to talk radio.
teh wingnut said obama was moving the trials to NYC soas to have ‘kangaroo courts’. and that it would make the US a target for terrorists worldwide.
Also, that no muslims should be in the military.
November 15th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
President Reagan bowed to the Queen Elizabeth back in the 80s. His wife Nancy even took lessons in how to curtsey properly. Conservatives had no problem with that.
November 15th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Seriously, this (’bowgate’) is a talking point of the US opposition party? I don’t know whether to laugh or be scared. Actually, both are appropriate responses: ‘laugh’ because it’s so pathetic and stupid (some fringe parties would be embarrassed to try to pawn off crap like this, but not the modern GOP, which, evidently is incapable of being embarrassed by anything); ‘be scared’ because this is the (supposedly) loyal opposition, and as such will get back into power one of these days.
November 15th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Seriously, this (’bowgate’) is a talking point of the US opposition party?
There is a need from, as mentioned above, the “Republican madrassas” to keep their followers in a constant state of anger and outrage. This requires a daily litany of “sins” to be created regarding the supposed usurper in the oval office to be broadcast to the faithful to feel the recurring Two Minutes of Hate. It’s about creating a unified, obedient culture which says the same things, gets outraged at the same time, and uses its own language. This is particularly important to help them through this period while they’re out of power.
November 15th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
I agree with Tyro, this is just about perpetual Republican apoplexy. Americans (all citizens of any republic, actually) aren’t and probably shouldn’t be comfortable bowing before royalty. But it’s a sign of respect that can certainly be afforded to the constitutional monarchs of our allies. Wasn’t so hot about Obama doing the same to King Abdullah, but yes, previous American presidents have been at least as bad.
This whole flap reminds me of the scene in John Adams where he seems to do a little grimace before every bow he has to make when he meets King George III for the first time. But still he bowed! Guess John Adams hated America too.
November 15th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
The Emperor is not bowing to the President, because the President is not bowing to him. The President is leaning forward to shake the hand of a man very much shorter than him. If the President had bowed to the Emperor (that is, bent forward from the waist with both hands at his sides) the Emperor would have bowed back to him. I have a picture of my calligraphy teacher meeting the Emperor — she bows very low, and he bows very slightly, but he still bows. I can’t believe the Emperor would bow to my sensei and not to the President of the United States.
November 15th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Here’s the video. I don’t see any point in denying that the elements of a bow are there. But I’ll ask again, who gives a flying fuck? Having 15 bajillion nuclear weapons and spending 15x more on defense than any other nation in the world means not having to lie awake worrying that the emperor of Japan might start acting like you’re his bitch.
November 15th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Working link.
November 15th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
This type of thing just underscores how much blind rage has become the GOP’s fetish mode. They’re resentful about the world changing a lot since WWII in general and they haven’t been happy about it. They absolutely need to get their followers to be angry over nothing all the time because otherwise they would need to think of responsible and workable policies.