Living Conditions in Gaza
It’s probably just the well-known anti-Israeli bias of the Condé Nast corporation at work, but I certainly found Lawrence Wright’s description of living conditions in the Gaza Strip to be pretty affecting. It seems to me that a lot of the huffing and puffing you hear about this person’s bias or that person’s moral equivalence is about trying to distract people from looking clearly at what’s going on:
Israeli patrols tightly enforce a three-mile limit in the Mediterranean and fire on boats that approach the line. [...]
The Israeli blockade includes a ban on toys, so the only playthings available have been smuggled, at a premium, through tunnels from Egypt [...]
Many of Gaza’s sports facilities have been destroyed by Israeli bombings, including the headquarters for the Palestinian Olympic team. [...]
Israeli authorities maintain a list of about three dozen items that they permit into Gaza, but the list is closely kept and subject to change. Almost no construction materials—such as cement, glass, steel, or plastic pipe—have been allowed in, on the ground that such items could be used for building rockets or bunkers. [...]
According to Haaretz, the I.D.F. has calculated that a hundred and six truckloads of humanitarian relief are needed every day to sustain life for a million and a half people. But the number of trucks coming into Gaza has fallen as low as thirty-seven. [...]
Until Operation Cast Lead, there were several concrete plants, a flour mill, and an ice-cream factory, but they have all been bombed or bulldozed, and the mixing trucks for the concrete have been knocked over. Houses and mosques and shops lie in rubble; entire neighborhoods have been demolished. [...]
Most economic activity came to a halt in 2007, with the Israeli blockade of Gaza. Now, according to the U.N., about seventy per cent of Gazans live on less than a dollar a day, and seventy-five per cent rely on international food assistance. [...]
[T]he tanks that line the border do lob shells into the territory, causing many random casualties. While I was there, a teen-age girl was killed, and her young brother injured, in such an incident. The Israelis maintain a buffer zone along the border about half a mile deep, which places at least thirty per cent of the Strip’s arable land off limits. [...]
The Deputy Defense Minister, Matan Vilnai, warned that Gazans were “bringing upon themselves a greater Shoah, because we will use all our strength in every way we deem appropriate.” [...]
That’s completely without getting into what happened during the attack and who was killed and why and how. This is a prison in which over 1.5 million people, the majority of whom are under the age of 18, are serving time.
87 Responses to “Living Conditions in Gaza”
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November 3rd, 2009 at 8:39 am
Hmmmm. Sounds like that whole “armed resistance” angle isn’t working very well. I know! Let’s vote for the group (Hamas) that supports more armed resistance!
November 3rd, 2009 at 8:58 am
Danceswithgoats, if you were in that situation, you’d vote for more armed resistance too, out of anger and frustration and patriotism.
Imagine whatever city/town/village you live in is surrounded by the Russian/Chinese/Venezuelan military. You and all your friends are scraping by, half-starved, on less than a dollar a day, there are no jobs to be had, and the whole place has been generally ruined. And, what, you’d vote for talking with the occupiers?
I know I wouldn’t.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:01 am
Man! I didn’t realize how biased an article could be until I read Matt’s selection of quotes and then the base article. Here is my selection of quotes:
“The fundamental platform of Hamas was its refusal to accept Israel’s right to exist, yet polls showed that Palestinians overwhelmingly supported the concept of two states.”
“From the Israeli perspective, at least, the Gaza problem was supposed to have been solved in August, 2005, when Ariel Sharon, then the Prime Minister, closed down the Jewish settlements on the Strip and withdrew Israeli forces. The international community and the Israeli left wing applauded the move.”
“We dismantled the settlements, and then we sat back and said, ‘Let’s have a new beginning.’ What we got was rockets and Gilad Shalit.”
“Such potential solutions have been poisoned by the frustration that both Israelis and West Bankers feel toward Gaza. The political distance between the two Palestinian entities has caused many Israelis to start talking of a three-state solution, rather than two.” (Even other Palestinians can’t stand Gazans – my comment)
“Shavit and other Israeli intellectuals have proposed that the Egyptians deed a portion of the Sinai to Gaza, to make the Strip more viable—“a semi-Dubai,” as Shavit terms it. The Egyptians have expressed no interest. “Egypt’s strategy for Gaza is to make sure it’s Israel’s problem,” Alpher said.” (Geesh! Even other Arabs can’t stand them – my comment)
“Although the new Prime Minister of Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, emphasized that Hamas had no intention of making Gaza an Islamic state, it took over the judiciary, appointing Islamist judges who impose Sharia on the court system.” (Beware women, Christians and homosexuals – my comment)
“On 15 May, 1948, I was twenty-two years old,” he said. Israel had formally declared itself an independent nation the day before, triggering the invasion by five Arab armies bent on destroying the Zionists.” (Wait a minute, didn’t the UN support the creation of an Israeli state? – my comment)
“The Gazans went home and the Egyptians sealed up the wall again. (Since then, Egypt has usually opened the border for a couple of days each month.)” (Wait another minute, the Egyptians are blockading the Palestinians? – my comment)
etc, ect, ad nauseam
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:02 am
Yes, armed resistance against colonial overlords and tyrants is beyond the pale.
Incidently please find eclosed back taxes from 1776 till 2009 on tea and stamps to be payed before the end of FY 2010.
There is a false moral equivilance in the american debate about israel, but it is the opposite of what is often claimed.
What the americans hawks seem to hate in the palestinians is not that they bomb innocent people (seems that Israel likes that too) but that they are losers.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:03 am
Tom,
I would vote for what would work. Sounds like the Gazans need some “Change” in a major way. Good luck with that.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:05 am
Yet they refuse to even meet with Israel to discuss a peace accord unless Israel makes promises to them in advance (like ending the settlement expansions).
Are they really in a position to be dictating terms of negotiations to Israel?
You are right that their suffering is awful. But they could negotiate with Israel at any point, and they choose not to without telling Israel what to do.
Did Germany dictate terms to the U.S. after WWII? Did Japan?
They’ve lost. They’re suffering. They need to work out a real peace agreement with Israel, agree to cooperate in shutting down terrorism, and the blockade will be lifted.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:05 am
What would happen if we properly described Gaza as a concentration camp?
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:06 am
Tomas, while you’re whining about false equivalencies, any plans to return your house to the Native American tribe that used to own it?
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:06 am
Re dancingwithgoats
In addition, the Hams terrorists are itching to bring more tsuris on the Gaza Strip by importing longer range rockets from Iran, the nation that Mr. Yglesias says the US should cozy up to. The Fakesinians are just asking for the application of Hama Rules.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1256799077483&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:07 am
Now is this a Godwin’s law violation, or does this instead exempt any further discussion from being subject to Godwin’s law?
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:07 am
@ Jimbo, I’d ask you to tell me about the campaign by German Jews to set off hundreds of suicide bombs with nails dipped in rat poison on the streets, buses and schools of Berlin, slaughtering hundreds of German civilians.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:08 am
“It seems to me that a lot of the huffing and puffing you hear about this person’s bias or that person’s moral equivalence is about trying to distract people from looking clearly at what’s going on.”
Well, yes. Of course.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:15 am
Just as I thoght. A sprirted defense of collective punishment.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:16 am
@3, there’s no contradiction here, the article’s implication seems to be that the mistreatment quoted by Matt is what radicalizes Gazans and leads to the bad behavior quoted by you.
As to why both Israelis and Palestinians are voting for radicals and finding themselves in a lose-lose situation, one could attribute that to a number of things. The easiest is human psychology, but there’s also the tendency for anyone on either side who talks about peace to get shot by someone from the same side. Or it might be a belief on both sides that they can win the “long” game: by obstructing a two-state solution they might achieve total victory at a later date.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:22 am
Now is this a Godwin’s law violation, or does this instead exempt any further discussion from being subject to Godwin’s law?
nitpick & pet peeve: Godwin’s law is descriptive, not prescriptive in nature. a ‘violation of Godwin’s law’ would be a thread of sufficient length that did *not* contain a Nazi analogy.
Thank you.
Now, back to the show.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:22 am
@ Jimbo, all war is collective punishment. How many civilians died when we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki? How many Germans died when we razed Dresden?
I’m not saying it’s good. It’s awful. There are 750,000 children suffering every day.
I’m saying that when nations are threatened, they respond. This is true throughout history. Israel is no different.
The article Matt links to cites the moment in 2005 when Israel pulled out of Gaza and what could have been. Sadly, the Gazans seem to keep choosing self destruction. The opportunities have been there, and they continue to vote for terrorism and rage.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:23 am
Re “What the americans hawks seem to hate in the palestinians is not that they bomb innocent people (seems that Israel likes that too) but that they are losers.”
———–
Actually, if a Gazan dumped $15 Million into US politics like Israeli billionaire Haim Saban then the US Congress would develop a sudden interest in human rights violations in Gaza.
The pack of contempible whores known as the US COngress sent 4500 American soldiers to their deaths in exchange for a few million in donations from Big Oil and the Israel Lobby. Why do you all think that same pack of amoral whores would give a shit about what is happening to the Gazans?
The reason why the US Congress voted to put a Museum on the National Mall devoted to the Holocaust in Germany –while studiously avoiding any look at the Genocide visited upon the Indians here in America — is left as an exercise for the reader.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:25 am
Are they really in a position to be dictating terms of negotiations to Israel?
“dictating terms”? The question is whether Israel should be building on undisputed Palestinian land. The question is not whether Israel should build in Tel Aviv.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:25 am
A spirited defense of collective punishment.
I don’t think I’ve ever read six words before that summarized and described the entire I/P debate so concisely.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:27 am
I’m saying that when nations are threatened, they respond. This is true throughout history. Israel is no different.
Nothing the Palestinians have ever done, or could do, poses any kind of material threat to the state of Israel. Nothing.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:29 am
Re: How many civilians died when we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki? How many Germans died when we razed Dresden?
Most of us consider those to be war crimes and atrocities, so the “Hiroshima defence” won’t fly.
Re: The Deputy Defense Minister, Matan Vilnai, warned that Gazans were “bringing upon themselves a greater Shoah
What the F*ck? Shoah = Holocaust, for any of those who were wondering. Is this fellow really saying that Israel should impose Shoah Rules on Gaza? That is very, very, very disturbing.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:31 am
Yet they refuse to even meet with Israel to discuss a peace accord unless Israel makes promises to them in advance (like ending the settlement expansions).
You can’t negotiate with someone if they’ve actively taking even more from you while you’re negotiating. That’s just surrender.
The present looks awfully grim for Palestine, but the demographics and regional politics don’t look so great for Israel. Instead of asking why Palestinians vote for Hamas, we should ask why Israel keeps doing things that drive people to vote for Hamas.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:31 am
Isn’t this what usually happens when you have subjects that you deny citizenship to?
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:33 am
Re Don Williams
Ah, Mr. Williams, the blogs resident paranoid Bolshevik once again misses the forest for the trees. Why would the US Congress want to memorialize the crimes committed by European settlers like Mr. Williams in the Western Hemisphere against Native Americans? After all, the US is the good guy while the Germans were the bad guys. By the way, has Mr. Williams been out looking for the rightful owners of the land on which his dwelling sits so that he can return it to them?
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:36 am
Thank you Matt for your courage and persistence.
At some point I hope people will understand the point that Israel is part of problem. Violence begets violence. The Arab/Israeli conflict is a horribly entangled chicken-egg-chicken knot of increasing violence. Violence just makes the knot get bigger and worse. Only real efforts at peace can untangle this horrible knot.
We tell out children that two wrongs do not make a right. The criminal justice system has never accepted the defense that my crime is justified by the earlier crime of my victim. It just doesn’t wash. And as a matter of reality, it doesn’t work either. Crimes by one will not stop crimes of the other.
Peace is still possible but it will not come easily, or as a result of violence, or from ignoring basic human dignities.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:37 am
Jimbo and James Gary – If you vote for a political party that calls for the destruction of your neighbor, you have bought your ticket and you take your chances. What is going on in Gaza is not collective punishment. The Gazans chose this course of action.
James Gary @ 20- from a famous American politician that was quoted in the original article “Barack Obama visited there as a candidate, in July, 2008. ‘No country would accept missiles landing on the heads of its citizens,” he said. “If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that.’”
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:39 am
@WinSmith:You seem to have a very elastic moral sense. What could the IDF do that you would consider out of bounds?
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:41 am
Wait, what war are you talking about?
Which is exactly what Osama bin Laden said to justify the murder of American civilians.
So, Israel = al Qaeda, now? Good work, dude.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:41 am
I dunno, I think they are doing alright: they kicked Zionists out of Gaza, which is an amazing achievement, considering the asymmetry. And now they have better, more powerful rockets. If I were one of them I would’ve felt cautiously optimistic now.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:43 am
I’m not really sure which bias we’re supposed to believe – or if the comment about bias itself was supposed to be sarcastic – but when the second excerpt from the article starts going on about the lack of toys for children, I know someone’s trying to manipulate me. no need to read any further
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:43 am
The only important difference between the approaches the Palestinians and the Israelis take is that the Israelis have greater means. Period. If they can pretend to higher moral standards, it’s just because, with their infinitely powerful military, they have the leisure to do so. Could they pretend to moral superiority without those means? Do my co-religionists really want to argue that we’re just better people than the Palestinians? Really?
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:44 am
after the absolute silence at the J Street conference about gaza, and the moral cowardice shown by the J Streeters during the War last December, it is refreshing to see MY take a renewed interest in the war crimes and atrocities committed against the people of Gaza by the Israeli government.
good on you, Matt
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:44 am
Glad to see that you think that all citizens of a country are valid targets of those who are opposed to that government’s policies.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:45 am
Re JM
According to Mr. abb1, Israel = Nazi Germany and Bibi = Hitler so Mr. JMs’ comment is pretty small beer.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:47 am
“Shavit and other Israeli intellectuals have proposed that the Egyptians deed a portion of the Sinai to Gaza, to make the Strip more viable—“a semi-Dubai,” as Shavit terms it. The Egyptians have expressed no interest. “Egypt’s strategy for Gaza is to make sure it’s Israel’s problem,” Alpher said.”
Is this serious? Who on earth thought Egypt would go for this? If Hugo Chavez proposed that the US help solve Mexico’s problems by deeding them a portion of Texas, would anyone respond anything other than “Fuck you”?
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:48 am
Can we put it in the comments, too? Would that work for ya?
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:51 am
The only important difference between the approaches the Palestinians and the Israelis take is that the Israelis have greater means.
So…might makes right, then. Got it. Do it to them before they do it to us.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:55 am
In a Nov 2001 Interview with Pakistan’s DAWN, Bin Laden justified the Sept 11, 2001 attack as follows:
“The American people should remember that they pay taxes to their government, they elect their president, their government manufactures arms and gives them to Israel and Israel uses them to massacre Palestinians. The American Congress endorses all government measures and this proves that the entire America is responsible for the atrocities perpetrated against Muslims. The entire America, because they elect the Congress.”
http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/10/top1.htm
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:58 am
Since the last Israeli election I no longer feel the need to jump to Israel’s defence on a daily or even monthly basis and am actually quite keen on America (and FWIW the EU) exerting some genuine pressure on Israel.
However no account of the Gazan’s appalling situation can leave out the question of how far these conditions are the creation of themselves and the people they more or less freely chose to lead them.
It should also recognise the fact that Gaza is not surrounded completely by Israeli territory – that Egypt is only marginally less assiduous in its blockade and that by granting the Gazans the right to leave and settle elsewhere they could reduce the size of the humanitarian problem hugely.
Apparently the article Matt so selectively quoted from did provide this context – so we are hardly rabid Likudnik neocons for pointing this out.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:00 am
“From the Israeli perspective, at least, the Gaza problem was supposed to have been solved in August, 2005, when Ariel Sharon, then the Prime Minister, closed down the Jewish settlements on the Strip and withdrew Israeli forces. The international community and the Israeli left wing applauded the move.”
Whee ‘withdrew Israeli forces’ means surrounding the area with Israeli forces, maintaining the area as a open-air prison, blockading food and medical supplies, and periodically attacking it.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:04 am
Exactly. Palestinians need to surrender and recognize the principle of religious freedom. Doing otherwise is not only authoritarian, it’s a conscious decision to sacrifice themselves and their children to religious intolerance.
Who here is in favor of that?
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:05 am
JM – ? Whether you like it or not, Israel is a sovereign nation with a military that acts under democratically elected civilian control. One of the very few in the region I will note. There is a major legal/moral/ethical difference from the actions of Israel and those of Hamas or OBL. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:10 am
In order to track down and destroy the Al Qaeda leadership, we need informants in the Islamic world who will tell us where they are. Rewards may partially help, but we need to win the political war.
In order to isolate Al Qaeda from the Islamic World, we need to address the grievances they use to recruit and gain support in that world. The excuses they gave for the Sept 11, 2001 attack , for example.
I know– we could enlist a group of distinguished politicans and form a blue ribbon Commission to look at the 911 attack and WHY it occurred.
Oh, wait…
“For one thing, the report skirts the question of whether American policies and actions fed the anger that manifested itself on September 11. I think myself that the report is right in saying that Al Qaeda attacked the United States because of what the nation was rather than because of what it did. Still, the report is weak in laying out evidence for the alternative argument that the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the Capitol might not have been targeted absent America’s identification with Israel, support for regimes such as those in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan, and insensitivity to Muslims’ feelings about their holy places. The commissioners believed that American foreign policy was too controversial to be discussed except in recommendations written in the future tense. Here we compromised our commitment to set forth the full story. ”
–Harvard Professor Ernest May re the 911 Commission Report
at http://hnn.us/articles/11972.html
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:11 am
Since you’re being so generous with other people’s stuff, you of course agree that the United States, England, France, etc. are also part of the problem since they won’t let Palestinians enter and settle freely.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:16 am
Ernest May Translation: We could tell America the Truth re Why the 911 Attack occurred because it would be too embarrassing to explain how the US Congress sucks the cocks of billionaires in Big Oil, Big Defense, and the Israel Lobby.
Note how the US Congress responded when its whoring caused the deaths of 3000 Americans: The two-faced hypocrites stood on the steps of the Capital and sang “God Bless America”.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:17 am
I see. So if the Palestinians vote “for a political party that calls for the destruction of [their] neighbor,” so they’re fair game. But “Israel is a sovereign nation with a military that acts under democratically elected civilian control,” so that’s different? ObL was talking about his targets. You changed the subject to ObL because you can’t explain how your statement justifies the murder of Israeli citizens, too.
Even if there is some mysterious “major legal/moral/ethical difference” between their actions, you’ve defined both of them as perfectly legal kills.
So kind of you to bring your own petard with you.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:19 am
Correction to 45: The 911 Commission “could NOT tell America the Truth re Why the 911 Attack occurred “
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:22 am
Assume that the Palestinians “surrender.” What then? What is the end state Israel wants? If Palestinians surrender, will they become Israeli citizens, with a right to vote? Or will they be escorted into an even smaller enclave, with rights negotiated under the point of a gun? How is that different from what they have now?
For those advocating for capitulation, tell us what awaits a Palestinian surrender? Maybe the future after surrender is just like what they have now, only with even more suffering. Is that a deal you would take?
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:26 am
Hey Danceswithgoats,
You’re surely aware that many governments whose actions are clearly not moral are democratically elected. We Jews often like to point out one glaring example, but I won’t bother. Instead, I’ll just remind you that Hamas was democratically elected. Indeed, if the region were truly democratic (i.e. Egypt and Saudi Arabia bowed to public opinion etc.), there would probably be no Israel today.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:26 am
Re Don Williams
Mr. Williams likes to quote Osama bin Laden as if he were the most truthful man in the world. On the other hand, I contend that actions speak louder then words. Al Qaeda has launched attacks in Spain, Great Britain, Saudi Arabia, and the US. Despite Mr. bin Ladens’ fulminations against Israel, Al Qaeda has yet to launch any kind a terrorist attack in that country. In fact, its operatives in the Gaza strip launch attacks against the Hamas Government there who launch attacks against Israel. It is rather surprising that, given his proclivities, Mr. Williams has not concluded that Mr. bin Laden is really a Mossad agent and his organization is really a Mossad front that operates for the purpose of discrediting Muslims.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:29 am
JM – @ 28 you mentioned al Qaeda. I did not change the subject.
Do you seriously believe that elected Israeli politicians direct their military to attack purely civilian targets and deliberately kill civilians? Compare that to Hamas that randomly launches missiles into Israeli cities. Any Israeli military action is going to kill civilians but that is not the intent. The fact that a military action may kill civilians does not legally force it to not be conducted. The Israelis have shown amazing restraint with pamphlet drops before attacks etc. Their restraint resulted in Israeli deaths during “Cast Lead” because they severely limited the amount of indirect fire they used in support of operations.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:29 am
Can we put it in the comments, too? Would that work for ya?
Sure JM – knock yourself out
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:31 am
Yes. Yes, I believe that was his point exactly.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:31 am
@WinSmith
There were, in fact, groups of Eastern European Jews plotting to enact just such terrorist attacks against the German citizens after World War II. The vehement debates over Zionism and Israel ended up fragmenting their efforts and energy; their only successful attack was, iirc, poisoning some SS prisoners awaiting trial.
Nonetheless, their intent was to cause suffering commensurate to the Holocaust on the German populace.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:32 am
#26: I find that this quote captures the sheer absurdity of the Likudnik position as well as any I’ve ever seen.
“What is going on in Gaza is not collective punishment. The Gazans chose this course of action.”
“What we’ve got here is a failure to communicate. Some men you just can’t reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it… well, he gets it. I don’t like it any more than you men.”
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:34 am
Andy has promised not to read below this line:
__________________________________________________
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:36 am
DanceswithGoats:
You missed the most interest quote (as did Yglesias, but it does more to undercut your position).
“In 1994, the poverty rate in Gaza was sixteen per cent. (In the U.S., it was 14.5.) But by 1996 the Israelis had virtually shut out Palestinian labor. And the second intifada, four years later, ended tourism in Gaza; before then, Shaban said, more than ten thousand people a month had visited the territory, many of them Israelis who enjoyed the beaches and the seafood. Most economic activity came to a halt in 2007, with the Israeli blockade of Gaza. Now, according to the U.N., about seventy per cent of Gazans live on less than a dollar a day, and seventy-five per cent rely on international food assistance. In 1994, Shaban said, one wage earner supported six people in Gaza; the dependency rate is now one earner for every eighteen people.”
Note the economy in Gaza began to collapse in 1994. That was not a response to anythign Hamas did. It was a result of the Oslo agreement.
Everything else represents further collapse from a desperate situation. It is not surprising that the Gazans do not see the peace plan as the great economic savior that you are suggesting.
Isreal got a great economic boom from the peace plan, the Gazans did not.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:44 am
Re SLC at 50: “Mr. Williams likes to quote Osama bin Laden as if he were the most truthful man in the world. ”
————
Okay , SLC –why don’t you enlighten me. Where was Bin Laden lying in the quote that I excerpted in post 38? Here it is:
““The American people should remember that they pay taxes to their government, they elect their president, their government manufactures arms and gives them to Israel and Israel uses them to massacre Palestinians. The American Congress endorses all government measures and this proves that the entire America is responsible for the atrocities perpetrated against Muslims. The entire America, because they elect the Congress.””
Where is the lie, SLC?
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:47 am
People are talking about what Gaza has gotten under Hamas.
But what has the West Bank gotten under Abbas’s attempts to make peace with Bibi?
Other than several thousand more Israeli neighbors, dozens of IDF checkpoints, and creeping land seizures via high prison walls, that is.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:52 am
Lon – I don’t know, perhaps the First Intifada had something to do with the Israelis closing the borders? I don’t believe the Israelis arbitrarily closed the borders to spite the Palestinians as it must have hurt them financially to suddenly lose a large labor pool.
The “peace plan” in its current form, whatever that might be, is bankrupt.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:53 am
god I feel so manipulated
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 am
The Egyptians controlled Gaza from 1948 until 1967. They also decided that they didn’t want it back in 1979 when they signed the peace treaty with Israel. So lets not pretend that Egypt doesn’t have at least some responsibility here.
But this is fairly typical of the way the Arab world treat the Palestinians. They’re all up in arms about how the Israelis mistreat and abuse the Palestinians, but they pretty much take a pass on doing anything significant to help them out. In fact, in most Arab countries, Palestinians are third class citizens and treated like shit.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:57 am
I have to wonder why Gazans, on average (with plenty of individual variation of course), have so many kids. I’m trying to imagine a Gazan couple talking about this: “Well, honey, we have four kids already, we’re sharing a studio apartment with your sister’s family, neither of us have jobs, and we only eat on two out of three days or so on average. Shall we try for a fifth?” “That sounds wonderful, darling!”
Now, I understand why rural peasant couples often want big families, in spite of poverty: kids can help with agrarian labor from a pretty young age, they can support parents in old age, etc. However, given that Gaza is essentially a big urban agglomeration with very few job opportunities, that logic doesn’t seem applicable. The circumstance seem like a far more extreme version of the Warsaw Pact economies that produce fertility rates in the range of 1.5 and the like: highly urbanized societies, housing shortages, etc. Yet Gazans still seem to go for big families.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:59 am
I had no idea toys were on the banned list.
Very cruel
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:02 am
@38 – brilliant quote
“The American people should remember that they pay taxes to their government, they elect their president, their government manufactures arms and gives them to Israel and Israel uses them to massacre Palestinians. The American Congress endorses all government measures and this proves that the entire America is responsible for the atrocities perpetrated against Muslims. The entire America, because they elect the Congress.” – Bin Laden
The scary thing is how strong the internal logic is. It is one that has rationalized the inhumanity of war for centuries.
And it is the exact argument made by those who rationalize the treatment of Palestinians – even though the majority of whom are under 18.
There may be practical reasons for rationalizing “collateral damage”. But there aren’t moral reasons.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
“Well, honey, we have four kids already, we’re sharing a studio apartment with your sister’s family, neither of us have jobs, and we only eat on two out of three days or so on average. Shall we try for a fifth?” “That sounds wonderful, darling!”
Julian, I know! And their decisions regarding their 401(k)s—appalling! Could you parade your Western bourgeois privilege a little more, please?
Wouldn’t you think that contraception is fairly hard to get ahold of in Gaza? Not to mention that it’s a fairly traditional society without much access to education. It’s 100% predictable that large families would be the result of that; wall off another city with similar circumstances and you’d find the same results.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
63: You ever think that maybe they don’t have access to contraceptives? Did that thought even bother to cross your mind? If they can’t get freakin’ toys, you think they can get condoms and the pill?
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:09 am
[...] the Gaza thread you hear sentiments like “Sadly, the Gazans seem to keep choosing self destruction” or, [...]
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:11 am
The article says that 70% of the population of Gaza are victims of the 1948 Zionist ethnic cleansing. Well, until they return to their homes in Jaffa (and whatever other places they were expelled from) and fully compensated, I don’t see any “peace” on the horizon. Had it happened to me, I certainly wouldn’t have agreed to any “peace”.
Justice first – then peace.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:15 am
What’s hilarious is that many of the Julian Elsons of this thread are Good Progressives who are outraged when Steve Sailer or whomever comes along and says something like, “Why should we be upset or surprised that black people haven’t achieved equality with whites? It’s their fault for the bad decisions they’ve made! When black people stop committing so many crimes and having so many kids, then we can talk about equality.” Such progressives respond, rightly, that insofar as stereotypes like that are accurate at all, they are an expected consequence of centuries of oppression and discrimination that continue, in various forms, today, and that you can’t hold an entire population responsible if discrimination and economic inequality drives some of its members to act unwisely or without an eye towards long-term goals.
But of course it’s totally different in Palestine, where everyone is responsible for being a 100% rational actor and thus deserves whatever they get if they make a poor decision.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:30 am
Is there really so much moral space between an act that deliberately kills 10 people and an act that is not intended to kill people, yet that you know if you commit it will kill 500?
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:31 am
Obviously, my stipulated Gazan couple conversation is absurd, and I assumed it would be immediately perceived as having been intended as such. Its whole point is to say “this obviously isn’t how things happen — so how do things actually happen?”
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:32 am
WinSmith,
Actually I am pretty confident that no native american of any sort has ever owned or occupied the soil under my dwelling in any way shape or form.
Furthermore even if this was the case, I would not be keeping 5 starving 17 years old native americans locked up in a shed on my neighbors lot while a few times a day firing a high-caliber rifle through the planks just to show then who is boss.
The rethoric of the Israeli goverment is getting genocidal to the point of making the Iranian president look moderate.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:47 am
Julian, I gathered that you were being hyperbolic, but it was also clear that you didn’t have a point besides, “I just can’t wrap my head around a crazy decision like that!” A little more genuine curiosity and a little less snotty snark would have done wonders.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:49 am
Re Tomas
If Mr. Tomas lives anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, he is living on land stolen from natives of that Hemisphere. Stolen by European settlers.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:53 am
I know Danceswithgoats (not literally, but I’ve argued the I/P debate with enough people to know where he’s coming from based on his real shitty arguments)
He’s just another dumb Jewish liberal. (cf with MY, a smart Jewish liberal). And when I say dumb, I mean, he’s too dumb to explore why is it that he disagrees with Dick Cheney on every issue, except for Israel.
This line here was the most telling:
What’s sad, is that, Danceswithgoats, isn’t just repeating Israeli Propaganda, but, he’s repeating self-serving Isreali propaganda that’s just so obvious and he completely ignores what actually transpired and continues to transpire to this very day.
We had an Israeli Diplomat speak at my Law School around March 2009 to “place into context,” Operation Cast Lead. The diplomat made the same generalizations: (i) amazing restraint; (ii) we value life; (iii) essentially: they made us bomb them.
I asked one question,”How can you say, a key difference between ‘us’ and ‘them’ is that ‘we value life’ when there are numerous front page stories about how Israel has bombed numerous schools and the UN complex in Gaza, resulting in countless civilian deaths, wouldn’t ‘we value life,” mean that we don’t bomb, and rather arrest the terrorists?”
To which the Diplomat, whose purpose for speaking at our school, was to inform us of what happened during “Cast Lead,” replied that he simply had not heard of those incidents. This is my firsthand account of speaking with an Israeli diplomat, who makes the same “restraint,” arguments that are repeated ad nauseum and are completly undermined by the hundreds of civilain deaths. Wouldn’t a country that was so concerned about civilian deaths, at least spend sometime explaining how come so many civilians died? And don’t throw the HAMAS stores weapons in schools and uses civilians as human shields claim either, because (i)it’s not true; and (ii) it’s belies reason (GAZA has tons of tunnels which are much better for hiding weapons and soldiers then frickin schools and hospitals, which will be filled with people and are likely IDF places of interest)
To Danceswithgoats,
Do you realize you’re being played? You argued that Israel used awesome restraint? How the fuck would you know that? Or you just feel it, or just know it, or just wish it so, you have a friend in Israel who told you so? Have you read any 1st hand accounts from Gaza? Have you read any independent investigations of what took place in Gaza? Or do you just blindly take the word of the IDF and the Israeli government, because, well, it hurts to think that your ancesteral homeland might actually be the bad guy?
I used to be like you, vigourously defending Israel in blog posts and conversations, always asserting that, “yah, the whole situation is a shame, but, what do you expect Israel to do . . . [fill in numerous justifications - which danceswithgoats has been doing all morning - to allow yourself to ignore the depth of Palestinean suffering and in part, unknowingly deny their humanity]. I used to think that, even though I’ve always been “pro-peace,” I could still “finesse it” and be “pro-Israel.” I now consider myself “pro-humanity,” and I’m better for it.
I don’t write to defend HAMAS or Abbas or Fatah. I write to point out that Danceswithgoats is a tremendous tool and to return the discussion to the countless civilians, on both sides, who are suffering, and are not being served by their “democratically” elected leaders. Like, over half of Gaza is 18 or under, and people on this blog are like, “well you voted for HAMAS, so you’re all fair game.”
November 3rd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
SLC,
Stop and listen to yourself.
You’re defending an Israeli Government that talked airily about bringing a “greater Shoah” on Gaza.
Do you really want to go there?
November 3rd, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Re: I have to wonder why Gazans, on average (with plenty of individual variation of course), have so many kids. I’m trying to imagine a Gazan couple talking about this: “Well, honey, we have four kids already, we’re sharing a studio apartment with your sister’s family, neither of us have jobs, and we only eat on two out of three days or so on average. Shall we try for a fifth?” “That sounds wonderful, darling!”
Probably because the power of demographics is the only weapon the Gazans have left to them, in the struggle against their hated overlords. You can hardly blame them for wanting to use it.
Moreover, birth rates are high throughout most of the Middle East (except in Turkey, Iran, and Lebanon, which not coincidentally also have high levels of women’s education).
November 3rd, 2009 at 12:38 pm
RE: SLC
Ah, Mr. SLC, given this, how might it be that I am so reasonably certain of the lack of native american former occupancy of my dwelling?
Want to use a lifeline?
November 3rd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
NattyB – I am not Jewish but will consider your assumption a compliment.
Little red meat here – I agree with Cheney on the Patriot Act.
Hamas has and does use protected sites for launching attacks and storing weapons.
I think it is the responsibility of Hamas to consider the reaction to their attacks on their populace, not the responsibility of the Israelis. Again, the Israelis have shown amazing restraint as Hamas has cynically used the deaths of their civilians to score points and fuel moral equivalency arguments from the likes of you.
November 3rd, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Vermin is vermin. The “Fakestinians” as SLC so eloquently puts it are not even real vermin! Show me where it says where plastic cockroaches were granted human dignity.
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Oh, and going way back to this:
“I’d ask you to tell me about the campaign by German Jews to set off hundreds of suicide bombs with nails dipped in rat poison on the streets, buses and schools of Berlin, slaughtering hundreds of German civilians.”
If this had happened, would the Holocaust have been justified? How far do you want to take this premise?
November 3rd, 2009 at 2:07 pm
“Hamas has and does use protected sites for launching attacks and storing weapons.”
In turn, Israel (i) has military bases scattered throughout the entirety of Israel; and, (ii) requires mandatory military service for all citizens over age 18, and that all men be subject to service in the Military Reserves until age 43-45.
Thus Israel could be fairly be viewed as a large military force being “shielded” by civilians.
November 3rd, 2009 at 2:48 pm
It is rather surprising that, given his proclivities, Mr. Williams has not concluded that Mr. bin Laden is really a Mossad agent and his organization is really a Mossad front that operates for the purpose of discrediting Muslims.
Hmm. Not quite as loony as it sounds, you know.
November 3rd, 2009 at 5:01 pm
[...] Leave it to the New Yorker to provide such a haunting portraits of Gaza. One aspect of the article that I think is excellent is the fact that because its filled with so much ugly detail about Israeli and Hamas’ actions, it seems to jar deeply and offend every ideologue that reads it, as evidenced by the extensive online discussions. [...]
November 3rd, 2009 at 7:35 pm
[...] Via MattY, a description of the living conditions in : Israeli patrols tightly enforce a three-mile limit in [...]
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Looking back, my tone came off as judgmental more than inquisitive. I’m sorry. I do think it’s interesting that, for instance, Macau has 0.9 children per woman while Niger has 7.2 children per woman, but my question was phrased in a sneering manner. My apologies.