Water Rights in Israel-Palestine
I get a little tired sometimes of a the navel-gazing intra-Jewish controversies about Israel. Here’s a first-order issue:
Israel is denying Palestinians access to even the basic minimum of clean, safe water, Amnesty International says. In a report, the human rights group says Israeli water restrictions discriminate against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank. [...]
In the 112-page report, Amnesty says that on average Palestinian daily water consumption reaches 70 litres a day, compared with 300 litres for the Israelis.
Israel is, of course, a democracy. And politicians in democracies are responsive to the interests of the electorate. Jewish settlers in the West Bank get to vote. Palestinians in the West Bank don’t get to vote. So it shouldn’t surprise anyone that infrastructure decisions are systematically made in ways that favor the interests of the settlers over the interests of the stateless Palestinians. These are the wages of occupation.
47 Responses to “Water Rights in Israel-Palestine”
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October 27th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Ah water politics in a desert has nothing to do with occupation and everything to do power politics. If the Palestinians had a state they would still not get a “fair” share of water because they would still not have a vote in Israel.
October 27th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
It should be pointed out that there has been a proposal on the books for several years to use a large natural gas deposit off the coast of the Gaza Strip to operate desalination plants, the water from which would be shared by the Palestinians and the Israelis. Unfortunately, the Hamas terrorists running the Gaza Strip have put the kibosh on this proposal because Israel would benefit from it. Just another example of how Hamas treats every proposal as a zero sum game; if Israel receives any benefit, no matter how minute, the Palestinians lose.
October 27th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
North Korea is also a democracy. Kim Jong Il gets to vote. Nobody else gets to vote.
October 27th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
One of the ongoing issues is the degradation of the water infrastructure for Palestinians, largely due to restrictions on building materials that “could be used by terrorists” — presumably things like pipes and conduit.
In the meantime, the West Bank settlements get swimming pools and sprinkler systems while Palestinian farmers see their land dry up. Like I said in an earlier thread, that kind of milkshake-drinking over the aquifers makes even the basic “side by side” bit of the 2-state formulation problematic.
Still, it’s nice to see überflack Mark Regev bullshitting once again for the cause.
October 27th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
It doesn’t get said enough, but we goyim also tire of the intra-Jewish contoversies over Israel, too, Matt, not to mention U.S. taxpayer support of a country that carries no real emotional resonance for us, with the exception of the hard-core evangelicals.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Wait a minute. Amnesty wants to kill all Jews by putting them through food processors. We know this because they have written some reports criticizing Israel for various bad things. You sniffed out the great Human Rights Watch Holocaust-in-the-making, why are you falling for this?
October 27th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
So a Gaza natural resource would be used to benefit both Gaza and Israel proper? That’s all kinds of generous. I’ll bet the Israelis were all set to pay market rate to the current government of Gaza for those resources too.
And the Amnesty report is about the West Bank, not Gaza.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Israel is, of course, no more a democracy than a whites-only country-club that elects its president.
In order to become a democracy (or at least something close to it), it has to stop violently preventing 4 million people (whose only crime is their ethnicity) from returning to their homes.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
It seems like Matt is actually explaining why Israel is not, in fact, a Democracy.
I’m sure it makes Matt feel better to believe that water rights are peripheral, anyone with half a brain and the slightest bit of honesty knows otherwise.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
I’m not so sure. Having enough water around to wash off the stink and avoid dehydrating to death might be important to us, but I think there’s plenty of people on both sides who consider water a minor issue compared to who gets what land. Once the land issue gets hashed out, I think we can look forward to a round of agua related violence.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
See the problem is that Israel isn’t really a democracy, for the key reason Matt points out (and also completely ignores.) Settlers in the West Bank get to vote, Palestinians don’t. Still looking for an explanation of how that isn’t apartheid.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
“Still looking for an explanation of how that isn’t apartheid.”
The explanation always boils down to some variant of “Palestinian Arabs are bad people, unlike black South Africans, and Israeli Jews are nice people, unlike white South Africans.”
No, it’s not a compelling explanation. But it seems to soothe the consciences of a great many people.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
where I come from this is referred to as theft.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
“Israel is, of course, a democracy.”
Matt makes a funny!
October 27th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
I think Matt said some time or another that calling the thing apartheid pissed off your median zionist Jew. That was it. It’s bad business.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Wait one second. Palestinians DO get to vote. I guess you’ll just blindly ignore that fact though and all the possible implications that come with.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Re DaveNYC
Mr. DaveNYC is obviously a retard who never learned how to read. The proposal was that the water produced by proposed desalinization plants be shared between Israel and the Palestinians in Gaza. The fact is that something of this nature will have to be implemented in the future as the water resources available are not adequate to support the combined population of Israel and Gaza, not to mention the West Bank.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
They don’t get to vote for the government that sets policy for them across a whole spectrum of issues and interests.
Your argument is like saying that New Englanders during the American Revolution couldn’t legitimately make the ‘no taxation without representation’ argument, because they had Town Meetings.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
This doesn’t begin to address his argument, which seems to have eluded you.
By what right does Israel get to “share” resources outside its borders?
October 27th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Oh, wait, I know the answer:
Israel is good.
Arabs are bad.
You’re an anti-semite.
Ergo, Israel gets to “share” Palestinian resources.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Re Joe from Lowell
It appears that Joe from Lowell is also a retard who never learned how to read. The proposal is to share the water, which would be extracted from the Mediterranean, produced by the desalinization plants. If asshole Joe would look at a map, he would see that both the Gaza Strip and Israel border on the Mediterranean so the notion that Israel is going to steal seawater from the Palestinians is absurd. The cost of the plants themselves would be borne by Israel, the US, and the EU. The Palestinians would not contribute so much as a dime to their construction.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Great topic, Matt! I haven’t visited the site in a long while (at least 9 months) but there was a guy on longbets.org who was pushing his waterbag invention — ship fresh water around the globe by towing it behind a boat or something like that — and places like Israel are among those I think would benefit most immediately from something along those lines. Similarly, as someone who grew up when SimCity was popular, I think Israel could benefit from heavy vertical development along the arcology model; sharing land is easier when you can support more people on less of it.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Mrs SLC is obviously a retard who never learned how to read.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Does SLC’s attempt to make this all about Gaza and desalination mean that he concedes the point that Israel is appropriating West Bank aquifers to fill settlers’ swimming pools while the IDF shoots out rainwater cisterns and turns Palestinian farmland back to desert?
Because it sounds like it.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Why would they give water to Gaza (or West Bank for that matter), when they blockade them from getting food and medicine? They are trying to remove people of undesirable ethnicity, aren’t they? And if they do offer them water, I would certainly advise against drinking it.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Israel is, of course, a democracy. And politicians in democracies are responsive to the interests of the electorate.
There it is. Progressive Democratic Socialism. Your property and person are never safe from the demands of the biggest mob.
Just like 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what’s for dinner. But this obvious truism is beyond the mental grasp of the typical “progressive”.
Hell, let’s put everything economic up for a vote. Like who “owns” all the women (of the losing side).
October 27th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Re CSL
1. It’s Dr. SLC and I’m male.
2. Mr. CSL is a piece of filth.
Re abb1
Mr. abb1 is apparently also a retard who doesn’t know how to read. Israel is not proposing to “give” the Gaza Strip anything. It is proposing to construct natural gas powered desalination plants and trade desalinated water for natural gas. Sounds like a win win proposition to me.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
“Just like 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what’s for dinner.”
Unlike laissez-faire capitalism, in which the wolves pay the sheep $3.50 an hour to serve mutton stew for dinner.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
re: SLC
1. It’s Herr Professor Doktor von CLS.
2. Mrs SLC is my bitch.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
So the illegal control of all access to Palestinian territory by Israel isn’t the reason Palestinians are dying of thirst, its Israeli democracy?
If 8 of us are in a life boat, and 6 of us vote that you and your friend will get none of the food, is that moral?
Is Matt trying to be sarcastic about realpolitik or is this just an inane post?
If the point above is that democracies like our’s and Israel’s can have effects that are as evil as a tyranny’s pogroms, then obviously yes, Israel’s democracy is voting its neighbors/prisoners out of the lifeboat.
As for the efficacy of the Palestinian state versus the Israeli state, if all of Israel’s police stations and most of their government buildings were destroyed by helicopter attacks and rocket fire,then maybe basic civil services would suck in Israel too, regardless of which armed camp had a choke hold on supply.
October 27th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
These are not the wages of occupation, these are the wages of Zionism, an ideology of choice, an ideology that chooses discrimination against Palestinians as a desireable outcome.
October 27th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Whose natural gas again?
Addional issues:
1. What is the split on the water going to Israel vs Gaza.
2. Where will the desalination plants be located? Who would have control over them? Would Israel have a legal obligation to continue to send water to Gaza regardless of the current political situation.
3. The gas wells; who would drill, would Palestinians be involved in the work? Where would the pipelines come ashore? Who would have de facto control over the supply?
4. Would an increase in the supply of fresh water actually allow Israel to increase the rate of expansion in the West Bank?
5. Oversight issues. What would be done to make sure that whatever agreement they come to is being followed?
Other than that though, it’s obviously the Palestinians that were just being jerks about the whole thing.
October 27th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
No one built anything in the waters outside the Gaza strip, because Israel would have blown it up. The way they blew up every other damn thing that made life livable inside the Gaza strip, see the power plant, the airport, and everything else somewhat 20th century inside Gaza.
No one needs the Israeli’s charity, that’s why they beg off us.
October 27th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
To expand upon the report:
In ‘Area C’ — which includes all Israeli settlements and is under IDF military rule — the majority of Palestinians have no running water, while settlers are plugged into the grid; conduits are built through Palestinian villages but the residents are prevented from accessing them. Instead, they rely upon rainwater cisterns, which are routinely polluted by settlers with dead animals and used diapers, and construction and repair work on those cisterns is subject to restrictions on materials and stop-work orders by the IDF.
In the meantime, SLC can bullshit on about Gaza all he likes.
October 27th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Re CSL
Mr. CSL is a goat fucking shithead who would fuck his mother if he knew who she was.
Re daveNYC
Mr. daveNYC asks some pertinent questions for a change.
1. This is to be negotiated if the Hamas terrorists would ever agree to negotiate it.
2. The desalination plants would be located in Israel.
3. The gas wells would be entirely controlled by the Government of the Gaza Strip or the PA authority if the two entities ever settle their differences.
4. That is also to be negotiated. Presumably, the Palestinian side would insist on no transfer of Israels’ share of the water to the settlements, in addition to which the plants will be hard put to keep up with the demand in Gaza and neighboring parts of Israel, at least at first.
5. Both sides have a hammer to ensure that any agreement is adhered to. If Israel starts to keep more then their agreed share of the water, the Gazans can cut of the gas supply. If the Gazans stop supplying gas, the Israelis can cut of the supply of water. therefore, it is in the interest of both parties that the agreement be strictly adhered to.
Re Ed Marshall
The Israelis’ have no incentive to blow up the gas wells adjacent to the Gaza Strip because thats where the fuel to power the desalinization plants is coming from. That would be equivalent to shooting oneself in the foot.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
So let me get this straight. The Palestinians are sitting on top of the natural gas resource that makes this whole scheme possible in the first place, and SLC is pissed off that they are reluctant to give the Israelis a “hammer” with which to dictate that the proceeds of the resource go 50% to Israel?
Yeah, I too really hate it when people don’t just give me shit that doesn’t belong to me when I ask them for it.
And that goes for those fuckers in Bolivia and Nigeria and Iraq, etc., who are also trying to horn in on our resources that they just happen to live on top of…
October 27th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
North Korea is also a democracy. Kim Jong Il gets to vote. Nobody else gets to vote.
I can’t help but laugh uproariously at this.
Because I’d say that leaders of North Korea, namely, Kim Jong Il, have a harder time pleasing the electorate of North Korea, by a quirk of fate *also* Kim Jong Il, than the leaders of any other democracy on the planet.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:22 am
Matt left out a few relevant details, such as the fact Amnesty’s report drastically understated the actual amount of water the Palestinians receive, or that Israel is sending an extensively larger amount of water than the PA negotiated and demanded under Oslo. Or any of the other several relevant facts that “hotly disputed” and refuted Amnesty’s report at http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1256557968809&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
October 28th, 2009 at 12:29 am
I mean yeah, it would be bad if the Palestinians only received 70 liters a day when the World Health Organization recommends they receive at least 100 liters per day. So it’s probably a good thing the West Bank Palestinians are actually receiving 200 liters a day.
But by all means, don’t let the truth distract all of you from demonizing the “Zionists”
October 28th, 2009 at 7:47 am
Re Monteith
1. I would be interested in knowing where Mr. Monteith came up with the 50/50 split of desalinated water figure. AFAIK, the split would be the subject of negotiations. However, I would point out that 50% of something is better then 100% of nothing.
2. What would Mr. Monteith consider to be a fair split? I suspect I know the answer to that one but I’ll let Mr. Monteith respond.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:48 am
“Israel is, of course, a democracy… Jewish settlers in the West Bank get to vote. Palestinians in the West Bank don’t get to vote.”
Doesn’t this count as a category error?
October 28th, 2009 at 9:14 am
by all means, don’t let the truth distract all of you from demonizing the “Zionists”
Your commitment to serve as CAMERA’s flying monkey on this topic is touching.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:55 am
What would Mr. Monteith consider to be a fair split?
If I have some natural gas that I’d like to use to desalinate water, and it turns out that you want to have some of the gas to desalinate water too, I would consider a a split of 100% of the gas for me, 0% of the gas for you to be fair, because, y’know, the gas is mine. I could probably be persuaded to give you considerably more than 0% in exchange for money, but the chances of this transaction proceeding lessen considerably when you threaten to hit me with a hammer that you will obtain as soon as we make the deal. In that case, I’m inclined to just part way with you and start desalinating the water I want with the gas that I have. That’s probably because I’m some kind of racist terrorist or something, but there you have it.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Re Monteith
The problem with Mr. Monteiths’ argument is that the folks in Gaza have neither the financial resources to build such desalination plants nor the technical capability to run them. The chances of their obtaining either with the current government in charge there are slim and none with slim already on the bus headed out of town. The fact is that the US, the EU and the oil producing Arab states have shown no inclination to deal with these folks.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Could y’all look up the Gaza natural gas deal? Cause the facts of it don’t match the “debate” going on here.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Ahem.
Your own quote dumbfuck.
Now, I’m going to ask you again: by what right does Israel get to “share” a resource – the natural gas, you dumbfuck – that belongs to the Palestinians?
October 30th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
This Machine Kills Fascists:
If doing actual FACT CHECKS on Amnesty’s report makes me CAMERA’s flying monkey (when in fact all I did was source the JPost), then so be it. If that’s what you consider a thorough job of refuting me, you’re not going to get far in any debate (outside of maybe this page, of course)