Race in America and Europe
Pat Buchanan says, of white people, “America was once their country. They sense they are losing it. And they are right.” I affiliate myself with what Adam Serwer has to say about this, but it also seems like a good jumping-off point for something I’ve been meaning to write about since I came home from Europe.
There’s often a kind of conventional idea on the left that the United States is an unusually racist society. And I think there’s also often a kind of image of Europe as a place where more of the progressive agenda has been achieved than in the USA. But I think that you’ll find if you look at Europe through the eyes of the liberal agenda that while the German left has certainly been more successful than the American left at securing universal health care, it’s been much less successful at promoting a tolerant, integrated, multicultural society. And allowing for the errors implicit in making any kind of sweeping generalization, I’d say that’s pretty generally the case across Europe. This Swiss People’s Party campaign poster would, I think, make Jesse Helms blush. And I’m not even sure which of the Northern League posters from Italy is the most egregious.
In the US, in other words, racial problems have been more salient for a long time since we’ve been a racially diverse society for a long time. But by the same token, for all the problems we have with us today, we’ve made enormous progress over the years. Racial and ethnic tensions are a common problem in the world, and the United States manages diversity pretty well in comparison with other places (not just in Europe) even if we fall short in some absolute terms. Just look at Barack Obama. I think we’ll be waiting a while yet before someone of non-European ancestry is elected head of government in a European country. Denmark has some great public policy ideas, but it’s also kind of made itself into the gated community of nations in a way I don’t find particularly appealing.
At any rate, in some sense it’s probably true that white America has “lost” “its” country, but that’s a good thing. It’s everyone’s country!
256 Responses to “Race in America and Europe”
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October 20th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001110-the-white-city
From New Geography:
October 20th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Please, please tell me you’re not citing far-right fringe European political parties as evidence of a comparative lack of European success in building a mult-cultural society.
And allowing for the errors implicit in making any kind of sweeping generalization…
Indeed, you should have left this one well alone, I think. I know you visit Europe more often than the average American grunt, but visiting a place isn’t even close to living in a place.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
I always find these types of things from Buchanon amusing, because back when the US really was the White Man’s Country (complete with suppression of the black population), they simply lived in xenophobic fear of . . . other whites. Look up some of the nativist rhetoric about the “mongrels” and “inferiors” from southern and eastern Europe.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Shorter Sailer: If you don’t include those livable, progressive cities that have lots of black people, then the only livable, progressive cities left are those that don’t have a lot of black people.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
But look closely at these exemplars and a curious fact emerges. If you take away the dominant Tier One cities like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles you will find that the “progressive” cities aren’t red or blue, but another color entirely: white.
“If you take away every good city with black people, you’re left with just cities with white people!” Shocking. Oh, and they’re all blue as well. And Austin is 34% Hispanic.
Anyway, based on my experience in Atlanta, one of the main reasons we don’t have a good mass transit system is because the white suburbanites are terrified that “those types” might be able to get into their bedroom communities, so we’re left with two lines and some of the worst commutes in the country.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Please, please tell me you’re not citing far-right fringe European political parties as evidence of a comparative lack of European success in building a mult-cultural society.
I’d have to say the average German is more racist than the average American. Again, I say median. You may have spent a semester at a German university and everyone was all liberal and multi cultural. Yes, that may very well be true. But, your average Johan Weissbier the BMW mechanic from Hamburg is going to be more racist than the average Joe Sixpack in the US.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
All you have to do is watch a La Liga match to realize that in some respects, Europe is far behind america when it comes to racial tolerance. In other respects its ahead, and it varies from country to country.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Compareing those midd siced (SVP) to small ( lega nord) parties in a proportional system radicalness with that off a 50% party in a two party system is pretty pointless.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
More from New Geography:
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001110-the-white-city
October 20th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Also, if steve sailer would look beyond his own borders, he’d realize that a city that is 46.9% visible minorities is regularly voted the most livable city in the world. But I guess that wouldn’t support your thesis would it?
October 20th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Then again, I bet if we had a party-list proportional election system with a 5% minimum, you would probably see a really crazy far right party that made decent of headway in the South with some awesome posters…
October 20th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Yep, what Aqua Regia said.
You may have spent a semester at a German university and everyone was all liberal and multi cultural.
You could hardly be more wrong about where and how long I’ve spent time, but thanks for playing.
But, your average Johan Weissbier the BMW mechanic from Hamburg is going to be more racist than the average Joe Sixpack in the US.
Not in my experience, but whatever.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
I think MY makes a great point, one that I often make to liberal friends who criticize race relations and policy in the US. I would go further and say the US has made more progress towards a color-blind society, given its demographics than any country on Earth.
As for Pat Buchanan’s comments, I think its foolish to discount him as an old racist crank. Buchanan’s has a lot of views I strongly disagree with but he’s a very smart and perceptive observer of American politics. And for the record, I believe a person can be a little bit racist and still be a good and decent person. You should always judge someone by their actions and not their political views.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Just look at Barack Obama. I think we’ll be waiting a while yet before someone of non-European ancestry is elected head of government in a European country.
True but “African” Americans have been in the US in large numbers for… a while. See Michele Obama’s family tree; many (most?) white Americans don’t have as many American ancestors.
So let’s hope some European countries elect a Muslim president without waiting 200 years. And hopefully soon, to make wingnuts heads explode.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Yes, and it’s a damned good thing. The brutality of ethnic supremacy, especially in some of America’s independent tribal regions, has been nothing but a stupid waste of human capital and a rich vein of paranoia for antidemocratic politicians to mine.
Die.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Good grief, more from New Geography:
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001110-the-white-city
October 20th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
I agree with JH, you have a majority system where only mainstream parties are allowed representation.
Therefore, in America you don’t see the kind of racist party propaganda that you see in Europe, you cannot infere with it that you are a more racially integrated society, only because minority racist politics don’t have a chance of being part of your parlament.
In the other hand, it’s true that despite the social safety net achieved in european politics, racial integration of immigrants and their offspring it’s far away of being acomplished.
There are lots of ghettos even in the more advanced countries(think of Rosengard in Sweden, and the more typical banlieus in France or the mythical Kreuzberg in Berlin).
But I think of it more in the lines of classism that racism. In my country (Spain), we still don’t have the racial segregation of France or Germany. Partly because we have a much shorter history of immigration, but mostly because we still have a big local low class(because we are poorer and more unequeal society), and immigrants just blend with local population in the working class suburbs, like Vallecas in Madrid or Hospitalet in Barcelona, or my hometown Mostoles in southern Madrid.
In rich european countries the urban and economical policies enforcing a separation between classes leads to racial segregation, because a majority of poor people are immigrants and non-whites (or eastern european whites).
October 20th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Aqua Regia, what city are you referring to? (I’m sincerely curious.) By the use of your phrase “visible minorities” I might guess you are referring to a Canadian city — Toronto, Vancouver, or Montreal, I suppose.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
He’s Popeye the racist man
He shits in a garbage can
He’s white as a blizzard,
A trainee Grand Wizard,
He’s Popeye the racist man (toot toot!)
October 20th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Yes, but you already left those out. Remember? Are you an amnesiac as well as a moron?
And why the fixation on African Americans as the only non-whites?
Oh, right.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
(Follow up to my comment #18): If it’s Toronto, I don’t know what’s so “livable” about it. The weather sucks in winter and the public transit system is total crap.
I live in Chicago, which I find extremely livable.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
46.9% is the number for Toronto. It has a higher percentage of minorities than Vancouver and Montreal. Montreal actually suffers from the same problems of ghettoizing its minority immigrants as some European cities do, so its not the best example.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
I would pay $10,000 for web cam footage from Steve Sailer’s house on election night.
Schaden-whatta?
October 20th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Shorter Steve Sailer:
If urban areas where politics have been dominated by a white-flight backlash against integration are less friendly to progressive interests, this proves that progressives are racist.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Then imagine a number of other large corporations with a workforce whose African American percentage far exceeded its industry peers. Then forget about those and go back to bitching about the cherry-picked sample. That’s a lot more fun.
… in the trailer park.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
I don’t like Toronto’s transit system either, its not bad but the subways and buses are nowhere near as good as Montreal’s, in my opinion. Its commuter rail system is great though. (GO trains).
As for the weather… Toronto’s pretty tropical compared to some parts of canada!
October 20th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Obvious counterexamples:
Boston: 24% black, 16% Latino.
Pittsburgh: 27% black.
Characterizing Austin as an especially white (or un-black — the article elides the distinction) city is false. It’s 31% Latino and 10% black. Same goes with Minneapolis, relative to U.S. population generally: Minneapolis is 17% black; the U.S. as a whole is 12% black.
Oregon is 2% black; Minnesota is 4% black; Colorado is 5% black. Is it any surprise, then, that Portland, Minneapolis, and Denver aren’t very black?
Sioux Falls, well known for its progressivism, is 3% black; South Dakota as a whole is 1% black. I could go on and on, but basically, the article doesn’t tell us anything, other than that its authors are trying to drive a wedge between white urban progressives and black people and don’t mind printing both false and misleading information to do so.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Whatever you think of Sailer, he has pointed out an interesting pattern. Except he doesn’t account for Asians. It would seem that Asian minorities are no disadvantage as far as city “hipness” goes. In fact, as somebody pointed out, cities like Vancouver and Toronto are considered fairly hip, and they have lots of Asians (but relatively few blacks and Hispanics).
October 20th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
No, LaFollette, the shorter steveracist came from steveracist himself:
It’s the way racists usually make their “arguments”: by tampering with the sample.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
No, he’s copied and pasted something that leaves out everyone but hypocritical whites and scary negroes.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Shorter shorter Steve Sailer:
Portland.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
[...] Matt Yglesias makes an observation that many colored people I have known have made (including family members): There’s often a kind of conventional idea on the left that the United States is an unusually racist society. And I think there’s also often a kind of image of Europe as a place where more of the progressive agenda has been achieved than in the USA. But I think that you’ll find if you look at Europe through the eyes of the liberal agenda that while the German left has certainly been more successful than the American left at securing universal health care, it’s been much less successful at promoting a tolerant, integrated, multicultural society. And allowing for the errors implicit in making any kind of sweeping generalization, I’d say that’s pretty generally the case across Europe. This Swiss People’s Party campaign poster would, I think, make Jesse Helms blush. And I’m not even sure which of the Northern League posters from Italy is the most egregious. [...]
October 20th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
I do think it’s good to remember that race-related things now are very different (in a good way, mostly) than they were just a few decades ago. I am old enough to remember the early days of court-ordered busing to desegregate the schools in my midwestern hometown (I was in 4th grade). I know that schools are to a large extent resegregated today (and, truth be told, I can’t help but wonder when I see [some of] my friends sending their kids to private schools while parsing the statements of various public figures for racist undertones . . . ).
But anyway, very real progress has been made since I was in 4th grade. And, even though I’m appalled by the way most people conveniently forget how bad things were just a few decades ago (indeed, they started “forgetting” in 1967 or thereabouts), I agree with Matt that it’s not a good idea for (white) liberals to brush this progress aside.
Also, I think it’s interesting to try and understand how race “works” anywhere and everywhere, but it’s tricky to make comparisons between the US and Europe in this area — esp., as JH pointed out, if you don’t live over there. After all, slavery (and its after effects) is absolutely central to the cultural, economic, and political history of the US. Not to mention immigration. You just don’t have that in Europe (you do, or did, have colonialism/imperialism).
October 20th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
I’ve never been to Germany, so I can’t make any serious claims there. But I did spend several months in Italy, and from the outside, the Roma experience there seems not at all unlike the black experience here. Except there’s rather a lot more middle and professional class blacks than Roma, and even most American racists think there’s something wrong, or at least embarassing, about admitting to strangers how much they look down on black folk. That’s been largely absent in European treatment of the Roma, so far as I have seen.
The same thing appears to be happening with the Continent’s Muslim population, although I don’t have as much experience there. I do have one anecdote — in Zurich of all places, I had the kind of “he’s white so he must hate arabs like I do” conversations with a complete stranger that was pretty much word for word like the sort of conversation you get in the American South about black people (but not in the North). And of course the Paris suburb riots are a manifestation of this.
Europeans I have met are often flabbergasted with America’s failures to deal with its racism problems (rightly so). But those same folks often have a completely blind eye with respect to their own.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Ole’ Pat said: “America was once their country. They sense they are losing it. And they are right.”
If I’m being deported, and my personal property expropriated, I must have missed the memo.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
I don’t know why you said “Zurich, of all places”. Switzerland has some of the most institutionalized racism in the whole world. They are far worse than the united states.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Also, almost no one would think they could make ape noises and throw bananas at black athletes in the US, but that’s not that unusual for African-origin soccer players in Europe. It’s great there in many ways, but also pretty grossly racist.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
From the New York Times:
http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/the-great-gay-hope/
Portland has the whitest core city of any sizable city in the country at 74%, with much of the rest made up of Asians, compared to #2 Seattle at 68%.
Portland, Oregon is, of course, near the top of any list of Stuff White People Like. It has it all: environmental restrictions on suburban development, trams, liberal social attitudes, bicycle trails, awareness, an upscale population, microbreweries, sterility, and so much more. Not surprisingly, white people like Portland. In fact, it was the only city in the country where reporter Jonathan Tilove found, while researching his book The View from Martin Luther King Drive, that white gentrifiers were driving blacks away from the local MLK Drive. Similarly, it’s one of the few cities in the country with a growing population of Reform/Conservative Jews.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
“Except he doesn’t account for Asians. It would seem that Asian minorities are no disadvantage as far as city “hipness” goes. In fact, as somebody pointed out, cities like Vancouver and Toronto are considered fairly hip, and they have lots of Asians (but relatively few blacks and Hispanics).”
Vancouver has very few blacks. But Toronto, what the hell are you talking about? It has a very large black community.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Whatever you think of Sailer, he has pointed out an interesting pattern.
What interesting pattern? That cities in areas with not many black people themselves don’t have lots of black people, except when they do (Minneapolis, Boston)? That the South isn’t very progressive, and its cities aren’t very progressive either?
The only pattern I discern is that because Sailer is willing to hold up Denver and Austin, with large proportions of Latinos, as well-run, progressive cities, it must mean that while he’s not too keen on having to listen to people speak Spanish or smell their pungent food, he’s willing to give them honorary white status in exchange for progressives adopting racist or racialist attitudes and sundering their coalition.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
jmo, any evidence whatsoever for your assertion? I’m with JH and think you’re way off.
We need to include in the dossier of American racism the assumptions embedded in our foreign policy behavior. Racism toward Arabs and Persians has a large degree of mainstream respectability and acceptance in this country. Their lives are seen as expendable and not worth as much as ours. How many Iraqi civilians were obliterated in just the initial onslaught of our invasion? And Afghan civilians blown to bits by our bombs & unmanned drones are chalked up to the inevitable ‘collateral damage’ of the conflict. Such a smug disregard for human life when it comes to these other nations, peoples rests on a deep bedrock of racism, in my opinion.
Yglesias conveniently leaves out this important calculus (international conduct) in his evaluation of American vs. European racism. Sadly typical.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Vancouver has very few blacks. But Toronto, what the hell are you talking about? It has a very large black community.
Its comparable to the american cities Sailer was talking about. Much smaller than the average american city, but the same as portland. I’d like to know if Sailer considers that especially relevant…
October 20th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
A 2005 New York Times article focusing on Portland was aptly entitled: “Vibrant Cities Find One Thing Missing: Children.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/national/24childless.html?ex=1269320400&en=cbfa254535a51a5f&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland
The basic strategy of the liberal whites of Portland is to use environmental restrictions and the like to keep the supply of housing down and the price of housing up so high that undesirables stay away.
It’s works great for single people and childless couples who can enjoy a very pleasant urban lifestyle in Portland free of the hassles of urban living in most American cities. The problem is that the cost of living in Portland is so high that all but the most wealthy families have to move out of the core city by the time they have their second child.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
There certainly seems to be evidence that Europe tends to have more problems with racism and discrimination than the United States. Casual racism is more accepted in sporting events and elsewhere in the public sphere, even in the 21st century. Openly racist politicians like Le Pen and the late Pim Fortuyn, and parties like the British National Party, are able to swing far more support than their equivalents in the states (at least on a national level). Immigration policies in Britain, France, and Germany are much harsher than in the US, as is the backlash, believe it or not. The riots in the banlieues certainly seem to be evidence of strong racial tensions. Anecdotally, during my time at Oxford there was much more acceptance of racially insensitive behavior (wearing blackface to a party, for instance) than you would see in the states. All of these phenomena are certainly present in the US, and of course things fluctuate from year to year and from country to country, but it honestly seems uncontroversial to me to say that the US has a more tolerant multi-racial society than most parts of Europe, on the whole.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
I’m getting the impression Steve Sailer was raped while on vacation in Portland as a child.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Aqua Regia #26: As for the weather… Toronto’s pretty tropical compared to some parts of canada!
Yeah, I know the cities of the prairie provinces are unbelievably frigid, but that doesn’t make toronto any more comfortable.
I also think Toronto needs to put a little more thought into how to integrate immigrant communities. There are too many neighborhoods where the whole city block has store signs in nothing but chinese / arabic (i.e. persian — same alphabet) / tamil script, and people not of that cultural group feel very out of place if they wander inside a restaurant. Sure, this phenomenon is present in all cities, but it’s especially so in T.O.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
I think it is EXTREMELY DISHONEST and DECEITFUL for Matthew and the Left to state that what Pat Buchanan is saying is that white people don’t like losing their country to blacks and Hispanics. That distortion is the functional equivalent of a Lie and is the same type of shit that Glenn Beck and Fox does.
If you actually read the fucking Buchanan article linked to,
What Pat Buchanan is arguing is that the middle class of this country is being repeatedly stabbed in the back back by infuriating betrayals by our elites –both Republican and Democratic.
The Democratic Caucus in Congress is showing that it is just as eager as the Republicans to suck the cocks of Superrich donors — to betray the Common citizens for Money. Bill Clinton , Larry Summers and Robert Rubin were just as big of whores for the Financial Industry as were Phil Gramm and the Republicans. Who pushed NAFTA? Who worked for the destruction of manufacturing in the country — for the layoffs of millions of AMericans and diversion of our capital to overseas investment — in China and elsewhere.
The Democratic Caucus is happy to stab tens of millions of unemployed Americans in the back in order to whore for the Hispanic Caucus. ANYONE who favors bringing in 1 MILLION immigrants a year, 12 million illegals and a million or so H1B visa holders is a fucking traitor to the people of this country. And they are betraying unemployed Blacks , Asian and Hispanic just as badly as whilte rural Americans.
The Republicans sent 4500+ Americans to their deaths because they thought it would be Good for Big Oil. The Democrats did so because they thought it would be Good for Israel.
Both our Democratic and Republican elites believe that they have the right to demand that every American citizen sacrifice his or her life in defense of this country — yet they also believe that the billionaires don’t own the People of this country a single fucking thing.
Clinton raised the payroll taxes on blue collar workers who break their backs every day and barely get by — and told them they were paying into their future retirement and medical care. ANd the the DEMOCRATS remained totally silent while Bush stole $3 Trillion of that money and gave it to the Superrich as a tax cut. A number of Democratic Senators even VOTED IN FAVOR of that action –without penalty.
ANd now Obama and Max Baucus are proposing to steal yet another $500 Billion out of Medicare.
One could make a moral, hypothetical argument that the People of this country would be justified in rising up and exterminating every politican in Washington DC. And every politican , senior advisor or political pundit who has been in Washington over the past 30 years.
Because those politicans are deliberately murdering Americans every day. How many Americans are going to die because Max Baucus took $3 Million from Big Insurance?
October 20th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Denmark has some great public policy ideas, but it’s also kind of made itself into the gated community of nations in a way I don’t find particularly appealing.
There are risks and rewards of liberal immigration policies. The risks are much higher in places like Denmark than they are in places like the United States, where you live. If you actually had to live in a tiny country where all the risk was concentrated in three or four cities, and where those risks made a political difference every day, then maybe this comment would bear more weight.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Urban growth boundaries and other mechanisms raise land prices and render housing less affordable
No mention of how the Urban Growth Boundary in Portland was coupled with a loosening of the zoning laws in the city. I.e., more housing was allowed to be built in the city, letting supply grow in the city and not just restricting it outside the city.
San Francisco could learn from that.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
One could make a moral, hypothetical argument that the People of this country would be justified in rising up and exterminating every politican in Washington DC.
Hoo boy I love statements like this. “One could…” One certainly could. Go on then!
October 20th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
In January, The Portland Oregonian ran a lengthy article by Betsy Hammond lamenting, “In a Changing World, Portland Remains Overwhelmingly White.” On the printed version, the subheadline read, “The metro area is less diverse than most — even Salt Lake City.” As we all know these days, Mormons are the source of all evil.
(In reality, Mormons invite in to Utah Latin and Pacific Islander converts.)
But what’s really distinctive about Portland is not that it has white suburbs, but that the core city is so white — 74%, compared to runner-up Seattle’s 68%. In contrast, Detroit is last at 8% (presumably, mostly grizzled Clint Eastwoods yelling at the damn punks to get off his lawn).
Los Angeles, which everyone in Portland despises, has the least white suburbs: only 34% white, making it the least white metropolitan area in the country.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
So I’m confused, does Sailer really hate portland, or does he really, really love it because it totally reinforces everything he believes about the world? Also, how is he still just blabbing about portland, rather than answering any of the questions put to him? I’m sure he’ll fill us in later.
Also, i don’t really understand what his point is. Most of those cities he points to, are actually more black than the states they are situated in. With the exception of austin, which is kind of a unique case. Maybe the conclusion that is drawn from this is that having progressive policies leads to more integration and less white flight? Somehow I don’t think thats Steve’s point.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
There certainly seems to be evidence that Europe tends to have more problems with racism and discrimination than the United States.
Well then, let’s review it, shall we?
Casual racism is more accepted in sporting events and elsewhere in the public sphere, even in the 21st century.
True, these kind of things happen, but saying it’s accepted is a bit of a stretch, I think. The guys doing that stuff are considered the dregs of society, and that kind of behaviour is widely condemned in the press and elsewhere.
Openly racist politicians like Le Pen and the late Pim Fortuyn, and parties like the British National Party, are able to swing far more support than their equivalents in the states (at least on a national level).
See hector@madrid’s comments above. This is a largely a function of how European and American political systems are organised more than anything else.
Immigration policies in Britain, France, and Germany are much harsher than in the US…
What the FUCK?
as is the backlash, believe it or not.
Were you paying the slightest attention to US politics around 2005/6? Also, have you heard the phrase, “tea party”?
The riots in the banlieues certainly seem to be evidence of strong racial tensions.
Ahem…Los Angeles?
Anecdotally, during my time at Oxford there was much more acceptance of racially insensitive behavior than you would see in the states.
Not during my time at Oxford, but maybe you were there in the 70s or kept disreputable company, or something. The environment when I was there was just as politically correct as any elite university in the US.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
I think it is EXTREMELY DISHONEST and DECEITFUL for Matthew and the Left to state that what Pat Buchanan is saying is that white people don’t like losing their country to blacks and Hispanics.
I don’t know whether he said it in this particular instance or not, but he’s certainly said it before, and it’s absolutely what he thinks. He gave the “culture war” speech, for god’s sake. The man is the living embodiment of white resentment over a country that’s getting less white.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Anecdotally, during my time at Oxford there was much more acceptance of racially insensitive behavior (wearing blackface to a party, for instance) than you would see in the states.
So it seems Europe has much more tolerance for racism. In fact it would be a paradise for people like Pat Buchanan and Steve Sailer, were it not for all those communists and muslims.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
I love it, once people pointed out that Portland is the outlier among Steve’s list of supposedly lily-white cities, he shifted gears to talk only about Portland and drop the rest of the list.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
So I’m confused, does Sailer really hate portland, or does he really, really love it because it totally reinforces everything he believes about the world? Also, how is he still just blabbing about portland, rather than answering any of the questions put to him? I’m sure he’ll fill us in later.
He hates Portland because it has a lot of liberals, and enacts liberal policies. But more than that, he really, really hates minorities. Thus, when talking to liberals, he’s going to talk about how minorities are bad in a way that’s framed to the audience. Namely, that the city we like best doesn’t have many of them, which apparently should convince us to join him in hating minorities.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Aqua Regia is confused:
Portland is a nice place. No question about it.
The question is: why is it a nice place?
October 20th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
I take it that Matthew and Adam Serwer have to mischaracterize Pat Buchanan’s statements and paint him as a racist because they want to DUCK addressing his actual points:
“Yet, we had seen these folks before. They were Perotistas in 1992, opposed NAFTA in 1993 and blocked the Bush-Kennedy McCain amnesty in 2007.
In their lifetimes, they have seen their Christian faith purged from schools their taxes paid for, and mocked in movies and on TV.
They have seen their factories shuttered in the thousands and their jobs outsourced in the millions to Mexico and China.
They have seen trillions of tax dollars go for Great Society programs, but have seen no Great Society, only rising crime, illegitimacy, drug use and dropout rates.
They watch on cable TV as illegal aliens walk into their country, are rewarded with free educations and health care and take jobs at lower pay than American families can live on – then carry Mexican flags in American cities and demand U.S. citizenship.
They see Wall Street banks bailed out as they sweat their next paycheck, then read that bank profits are soaring, and the big bonuses for the brilliant bankers are back. Neither they nor their kids ever benefited from affirmative action, unlike Barack and Michelle Obama.
They see a government in Washington that cannot balance its books, win our wars or protect our borders. The government shovels out trillions to Fortune 500 corporations and banks to rescue the country from a crisis created by the government and Fortune 500 corporations and banks.
America was once their country. They sense they are losing it. And they are right. “
October 20th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
You must have heard this before but just in case I’ve heard it claimed that a major reason Europe is more liberal with social welfare is because of the relative homogeneity of different states.
When everyone in the country looks like you, you are perhaps more inclined to sympathize with those who are not as well off as you, to consider this a consequence of misfortune as opposed to some intrinsic flaw.
In this country, with strong correlations between poverty and race, it is perhaps more difficult to sympathize with the poor, or to imagine you could find yourself in their position.
Indeed, I’ve heard that many liberals in Europe fear open immigration policies, which ideologically they would otherwise favor, because they fear more diverse populations will lead to such divisions as occur in the US and thus threaten the popularity of the welfare state.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
Shorter Steve Sailer:
The legacy of slavery/Jim Crow/Racism means black Americans tend to suffer disproportionately from poverty, and therefore also tend to be disproportionately less able to afford to live in desirable neighborhoods with transit and Starbucks. So that means white liberals are as racist as I am.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
While I generally agree with Sailer on things, I do have to agree with those who say that that his statement about whiter cities being considered more attractive to liberals seems to be somewhat lacking.
Portland is a good example of a mostly-white city that a lot of liberals like, but I don’t see how you can arbitrarily discount “tier one” cities with a lot of blacks and Latinos if you are trying to show a trend. Of course, if you want to argue that New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, or Pittsburgh are considered non-ideal cities by progressives, then the correlation might fit better.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
He hates Portland because it has a lot of liberals, and enacts liberal policies. But more than that, he really, really hates minorities. Thus, when talking to liberals, he’s going to talk about how minorities are bad in a way that’s framed to the audience. Namely, that the city we like best doesn’t have many of them, which apparently should convince us to join him in hating minorities.
Perfect summary. I would add: liberals also hate minorities, and are willing to devise in secret ingenious schemes to keep them out of Portland, even if it hurts the children.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Certainly, Los Angeles, which competed with San Francisco for the title of most fashionable city in America in the 1960s, is vastly less fashionable today, now that it is made up of such a huge proportion of illegal aliens and their descendants.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Mike at #60:
Of course, it isn’t just about how well the net taxpayers can identify with the net tax receivers.
There is also the fact that in a country with strong correlations between poverty and race, it is easier for those receiving government money to convince themselves that the wealthier population owes them, and to try to take advantage of the system.
Homogeneity doesn’t just make the welathy more likely to sympathize with the poor, it also makes those on welfare programs more likely to feel a connection to those providing the money and to feel grateful that they are being helped.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Judging from this poll of 60,000 Americans conducted by Travel & Leisure of visitors’ and residents’ attitudes toward 25 American cities to find “America’s Favorite City,” Los Angeles has to be America’s Least Favorite City.
Consider the subsets of the “People” category. Seattle came in first in “Most Intelligent People,” while Los Angeles came in dead last, worse than Las Vegas, Miami, or San Antonio (perhaps 100-year-old Jacques Barzun raises San Antonio single-handedly?)
Charleston was first in “Most Friendly,” while LA was last again.
LA — surly and stupid, like the cast of “Idiocracy.”
LA scored near the top only in “Luxury boutiques,” “Shoe-shopping,” and “Jewelry-shopping.” LA is so hated it only came in sixth in “Weather,” behind (besides San Diego and Honolulu) Miami and Charleston (ever hear of this thing called “Summer”?) and 7,000 foot Santa Fe (ever hear of this thing called “not Summer”?).
The only consolation Angelenos can take is that year by year, the rest of the country becomes more like LA (but with lousier weather):
We’re the future, your future.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Portland is a nice place. No question about it.
The question is: why is it a nice place?
Like I said. So indeed, why is it? Two possible answers are because it enacts lots of liberal policies, or because there aren’t very many minorities.
So Steve comes up with a list of other nice cities, all of which enact liberal policies. Then he arbitrarily eliminates the ones who have lots of minorities, to try to support his hypothesis. He lists Austin as a city that’s white, then when told it’s 34% Hispanic immediately stops talking about it.
Of course, even if there were a strong correlation between lack of minorities and the livability of a city (which, of course, there isn’t), one could then conclude that this is because minorities are much more likely to be poor, and that the solution is then not to simply banish minorities but to help them be less poor, by doing things like putting more money into inner-city revitalization and stronger anti-poverty measures.
Or you could just send them back to Africa and Mexico, like Steve wants to do.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
JM Says:
October 20th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Pat Buchanan says, of white people, “America was once their country. They sense they are losing it. And they are right.”
Yes, and it’s a damned good thing. The brutality of ethnic supremacy, especially in some of America’s independent tribal regions, has been nothing but a stupid waste of human capital and a rich vein of paranoia for antidemocratic politicians to mine.
Die.
Uh- who are you telling to die, JM?
October 20th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
And New York City, which has always been full of disgusting immigrants and their descendants, blah blah blah.
Did Steve Sailer know his biological parents? I think investigating the root causes of his obsessions would be more fun than finding holes in Swiss cheese. It’s clearly not just the money.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Charleston was first in “Most Friendly”
Seeing as I actually live in Charleston, I’ll let you in on a little secret, Steve. Charleston is 31% black! I assure you you’d find yourself quite uncomfortable there around all of “those types”, which is a real shame as the soul food is quite excellent. You might try Columbia instead, where the largest barbecue chain proudly flies the confederate flag at its stores (as does the state capitol), and you can find pamphlets inside about how slavery wasn’t really that bad for the negroes. Your type of place. Great food too.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Now, let’s circle back to Matt’s point:
But, of course, the reason Denmark has had immigration restrictionists in power since 2001 is precisely because Danes want to be able to preserve and extend those “great public policy ideas,” just as the nice white liberals of Portland have made their city something of a gated community to keep it from turning into another Los Angeles.
So, this post of Matt’s turns into #462 of his continuing series: “Reasons to Crack Down on Illegal Immigration that I Will Leave Only Implicit.”
October 20th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
I think the tendency of posters here to associate poverty with blacks shows an interesting mindset in itself.
The majority of the poor in America are white — less visible perhaps because they are dispersed across the rural countryside instead of being concentrated in city ghettos near elites.
But anyone who has visited Appalachia will see the same ills — high unemployment, narcotic addictions, alcoholism, homicidal violence, depression, high rates of illegitimate births — that plague urban poor blacks as well.
I’m sure that Oprah would extend the same welcome to white trash invading her neighborhood that some of the white elites would extend to poor blacks invading theirs.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Maybe what Matt’s anecdotal evidence indicates (if anything as other posters have argued) is that there is a tradeoff between racial diversity, multiculturalism, liberal immigration etc. and the social solidarity required for a strong welfare state.
Why does the u.s. refuse to implement stronger public services? Other semi-similar anglo settler nations have relatively strong welfare states. Is it structural, related to the u.s. political system or is it cultural in that there has been a consented trade off made by the american public.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Certainly, Los Angeles, which competed with San Francisco for the title of most fashionable city in America in the 1960s, is vastly less fashionable today, now that it is made up of such a huge proportion of illegal aliens and their descendants.
There may be a lot of L.A.-haters out there, but to use Hector’s favorite word, there are still plenty of hipsters here.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Let’s now turn to those winner cities, such as Matt’s own Washington D.C.
D.C. has enjoyed a remarkable growth in its white population in this decade, up from whites making up 23% of the population in 2000 to 28% in 2007% — of course, whites are wholly concentrated into a limited fraction of D.C. And the African American population has been falling even faster because American-born blacks are being pushed out by African immigrants, whom whites prefer for service jobs, seeing them as less surly.
New York has been net losing American-born blacks ever since 1979, according to Jonathan Tilove.
Chicago has been tearing down its notorious public housing projects and foisting their former tenants on smaller Midwestern cities like Champagne and Madison, where their Section 8 rental vouchers will go farther.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
JH:
[in response to European soccer racism:] “True, these kind of things happen, but saying it’s accepted is a bit of a stretch, I think. ”
And my point is that those kind of things don’t happen in the States. I agree that they are condemned by the press, but the fact that UEFA has to run a “No racism” campaign at all is an indictment.
[in response to points about politicians like Le Pen and Fortuyn]: “This is a largely a function of how European and American political systems are organised more than anything else.”
Hardly a response, because these aren’t fringe candidates. Le Pen won more votes than the center-left candidate in 2002, forcing a runoff. Fortuyn was a huge figure and his party was the second-biggest in the Dutch parliament. You just can’t dismiss these guys as fringe loonies, because they achieved way more than any American racists. Pat Buchanan, for instance, couldn’t even win a single Republican primary—in 1992, 10 years before Le Pen and Fortuyn’s successes.
[in response to my claim that European immigration policies are often harsher than American:] “What the FUCK?”
Would you like to respond with an argument? In fact, what I said is true. Dirty Pretty Things isn’t journalism, nor is it a great movie, but it’s a good introduction to the topic if you’re interested.
[in response to my claim that anti-immigration backlash is stronger in Europe]: “Were you paying the slightest attention to US politics around 2005/6? Also, have you heard the phrase, “tea party”?”
I was careful to say that all of these forms of racism are also present in the US, just to a lesser degree. Certainly at their worst our racism can equal their racism. Even so, the consequences of our backlash were generally limited to cable media. The consequences of their backlash included, among other things, the shock electoral success of Le Pen (see above).
[in response to my point about the banlieues:] “Ahem…Los Angeles?”
Almost twenty years ago, yes. The banlieues riots were four years ago, and much more long-lasting and devastating.
[in response to my anecdote about racism at Oxford:] “Not during my time at Oxford, but maybe you were there in the 70s or kept disreputable company, or something.”
2001-2002, buddy. And the “disreputable company” consisted of officially sanctioned parties at St. Catherine’s, Wadham, and other colleges.
So, in conclusion: I stand by my claims, though I recognize that all of this is extremely subjective territory.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Re bbk “Why does the u.s. refuse to implement stronger public services? Other semi-similar anglo settler nations have relatively strong welfare states.”
Because the top 2 percent of the income brackets –of whatever race — bribe Members of Congress –of whatever race — to fuck the other 98 percent of us — of whatever race.
Race, ethnicity, and 90 percent of the other issues are just a means to keep the rabble diverted from how they are being screwed.
There is not a single fucking member of either the Republican or Democratic Caucus that will tell our billionaires that they should pay higher taxes or accept lower returns on their investments in order to give fair treatment to the people who fight our country’s wars and who sweat to keep our life support systems running.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
America is more politically correct than Europe (although Germany is arguably a top pc contender, as well), but that’s not the same as being less racist.
We live in a very multi-cultural society and, due to this, I’d argue people tend to cloak their prejudices better. But again, considering the way the U.S. media demonizes whole portions of the world, and the people within, I’d say this lovely conversation about Steve Sailer and Portland is happening in a bit of a vacuum.
Also, it’s important to note that the U.S. is fundamentally an immigrant society, with people retaining various levels of identification to the place(s) their ancestors came from, or not. European countries are not immigrant societies in this fundamental way, like America. So, it would be natural for there to be different attitudes and frames of reference toward the question of immigration.
This difference is relevant to the comparison of American and European racism(s), the template is different.
But when you take into account the big picture of America attitudes and behavior, both domestic AND foreign, and compare this with Europe, there’s a strong case that America is quite a bit more racist, or at least lethally racist, than Europe.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
The majority of the poor in America are white — less visible perhaps because they are dispersed across the rural countryside instead of being concentrated in city ghettos near elites.
The “majority”? That’s a tendentious way to put it. There are what, six times more whites than blacks? What’s the poverty rate for each race?
But yes, obviously when you have hundreds of thousands of poor people concentrated in an inner city, it’s going to be a lot more visible than Appalachian counties with 10k people and dirt roads. The problems are very much similar though.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
@72 poor white people are ignorant, fat, lazy and live in trailer parks so they can go fuck themselves
October 20th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
I’d have to say the average German is more racist than the average American. Again, I say median. You may have spent a semester at a German university and everyone was all liberal and multi cultural. Yes, that may very well be true. But, your average Johan Weissbier the BMW mechanic from Hamburg is going to be more racist than the average Joe Sixpack in the US.
I agree with Matt on this and this comment above. I lived in Germany for 5 years and was always bemused by American liberals who hadn’t been in Germany as long as I had, when they learned that Germans, who had great things like trains and universal healthcare, were often pretty rascist. Germans often have a hard time talking about Jews because they do not know how and when they do, for example, will make dumb assumptions about them being Israeli even if they are American or German! Note also, for example, the recent Steve Sailoresque comments by Thilo Sarrazin of the Bundesbank about Turks and Arabs in Berlin and the defense of said comments by major mainstream right-leaning papers. For the most part Americans really are more comfortable around people who are different than them.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
I think the tendency of posters here to associate poverty with blacks shows an interesting mindset in itself.
No. All it shows is we have a passing familiarity with income and wealth statistics.
The majority of the poor in America are white
Right. As are the majority of the rich. And the majority of, er, people, period.
An unwillingness to confront the correlation between race and economic power (or lack thereof) in America doesn’t make one enlightened or progressive. It makes one ignorant, and it makes one’s arguments ineffective.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
I should add that despite what I just said there is a special sort of racism against African Americans that is not present in Europe.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
“Certainly, Los Angeles, which competed with San Francisco for the title of most fashionable city in America in the 1960s, is vastly less fashionable today, now that it is made up of such a huge proportion of illegal aliens and their descendants.”
Um……..first, San Francisco also has a “huge” proportion of illegal aliens (well, “huge” by racist Sailer standards). Second, you’re arguing that LA is less fashionable than SF because SF is more white?!?! (I don’t think San Francisco actually IS more white than LA). Third, and I say this as a native of the Bay, there’s someone who believes that SF is more fashionable that LA? Since when? More freaky, yes, we’re more freaky. More fashionable? No way.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
There may be a lot of L.A.-haters out there
Maybe. But I’d bet nearly all of them “hate” LA because they want to engage in Hollywood-bashing, not because they share Steve Sailer’s apocalyptic views on Hispanic immigration.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
What about Austin?
Austin is in a tricky situation in that it’s a liberal city in a laissez-faire state, which means it will have a harder time passing raise-the-drawbridges regulations than Portland did in environmentalist Oregon.
There are two relatively successful responses to the vast influx of low income Hispanics over the recent decades: the first is the liberal one, exemplified by Portland, of using environmentalism, preservationism, etc. to make it too expensive for all but the more productive Latinos to move in (which also encourages blacks to move out, so, in the minds of white Portlanders, it’s all good).
The second so-far successful method is the conservative one, exemplified by Texas, where newcomers are accommodated by having almost no restrictions on homebuilding (which prevented a housing bubble), few restrictions on businesses, low taxes, low welfare, low government spending, hard-nosed public school policies, and so forth.
In contrast, the response that absolutely doesn’t work is California’s: liberalism combined with a huge influx of low-wage Hispanics. Environmental delays on development combined with a seemingly unending immigration from abroad led to a catastrophic Housing Bubble that took the rest of the economy down with it when the markets finally figured out that all those roofers in Riverside will never ever make enough to pay off their $400k mortgages, and that there’s not an unending supply of Greater Fools who want to pay $400k to live in a neighborhood of roofers.
So, California ends up with a very expensive set of liberal policies and a low wage set of residents who can’t pay for them.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Judging from this poll of 60,000 Americans conducted by Travel & Leisure of visitors’ and residents’ attitudes toward 25 American cities to find “America’s Favorite City,” Los Angeles has to be America’s Least Favorite City.
Well, if the respondents to a Travel & Leisure poll say it, it must be true!
Meanwhile, where are the movie, TV, and music industries still based? Does American Idol tell the ecstatic youngsters who pass through the initial judges’ screening that they’re going to Hollywood or to Portland? Where is American Apparel based? Where are most reality shows set that follow glamorous celebrities who appeal to young people across the country and the world? Who gets more tourists, L.A. or Austin? Who has the hotshot buildings by Frank Gehry and Thom Mayne?
In other words, despite any stupid travel magazine poll, where do more people still go?
October 20th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Back to Austin:
I don’t know enough about the precise regulatory details, but I worry that Texas’s state laws are so pro-development that it will be hard for Austin’s liberals to raise the drawbridges and preserve its cute college town character under the demographic tides that threaten to inundate it.
Portland had the Oregon environmentalist wind at its back, but Austin is fighting the Texas laissez-faire headwind.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
What Matt’s saying is that we don’t go out and lynch niggers or burn down their homes these days just ‘cuz we take a dislike to them. Instead, we get paid writing about how we pity them for being genetically backward savages while pointing out that they’re blessed with great athletic talents and monster schlongs.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
If you want to see a perceptive Austinite’s views of the future, check out Mike Judge’s “Idiocracy.”
October 20th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
“We live in a very multi-cultural society and, due to this, I’d argue people tend to cloak their prejudices better.”
Matt’s very point was that the US is more of a “tolerant, integrated, multicultural society” than Europe. You seem to be granting that. As for “cloaking their prejudices,” well, what would it look like if people were genuinely less racist, rather than still racist but covering it up better?
“But again, considering the way the U.S. media demonizes whole portions of the world, and the people within”
First, this is sort of perpendicular to the point, since we’re talking about the societies themselves, not their foreign policies. Second, do you think this demonization does not go on in Europe? Of course it does. Look at the debates over Turkey joining the EU. Look at the resistance to building a mosque in Cologne. Look, yet again, at Pim Fortuyn. There is a huge problem with anti-Muslim and anti-Arab attitudes in Europe (and also a huge problem with anti-Semitism, incidentally).
“Also, it’s important to note that the U.S. is fundamentally an immigrant society, with people retaining various levels of identification to the place(s) their ancestors came from, or not. European countries are not immigrant societies in this fundamental way, like America. So, it would be natural for there to be different attitudes and frames of reference toward the question of immigration.”
Isn’t this, again, the very point that Matt and people like me are making? As people immigrate to countries that haven’t previously gotten much immigration, in Scandinavia for instance, those countries have duly been experiencing racist backlash.
I share your disdain for the racist assumptions underlying American foreign policy, but it’s a mistake to think that those assumptions aren’t shared by other countries, or to use that as the sole basis for determining the extent of racism in the US.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
If you want to see a perceptive Austinite’s views of the future, check out Mike Judge’s “Idiocracy.”
Without reference to the merits of the film, let me recommend this comic strip for anyone who is thinking about taking Idiocracy seriously as a prediction for the future.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
@tomemos
I think you may want to look that up. I remembered that the French riots were less violent than US standards would lead you to expect: despite very serious racial tensions the deadly violence was much less in France than in LA. The death toll in LA was 53, in france, after the two deaths that set off the riots, two. But yes, lots of areas were affected, less contained than in LA. So this may just say more about violence in the US.
In Germany, the country I know best, there is a good amount of de facto exclusion of minorities, meaning Muslims for the most part, with active exclusion from I’d say about 20% of the population. Obviously the people who exclude Muslims argue that these Muslims deserve shunning for failing to conform to basic German values, such as not wearing head scarfs or being amused when insulted. Obviously these people will argue that they are not being racists. At some level it doesn’t matter: excluding people is going to lead to more problems than necessary and ought to be discouraged, whatever the motivations. So I’d focus more on how people are excluded, not if the motivation is racist or not. Lots of education exclusion in Germany.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
The bottom line is that progressives make extremely race-conscious decisions in their own private affairs, such as when picking where to live or where to send their kids to school. On the other hand, they try to demonize anybody who articulates in public their own private logic, which is one reason why public discourse in America tends to be dominated by kitsch and hypocrisy.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Don Williams, I get what you’re saying, and I’m largely sympathetic to your broader point about the Dems being active participants of the dismantling of the worker and middle classes, but going back and reading Buchanan it’s clear to see that he couches his arguments in racist, fear mongering polemic rather than class analysis. When he says “they” he is quite clearly referring to whites only.
Within the snippet of the commentary you posted…crime went down over the past what is it now, at least 10 years, and teenage pregnancy has been declining for some time now as well. I’m also tired of this “If they want to be American they should throw out their Mexican flags” string of reasoning from people who often cling to their Irish heritage four generations removed or drive around with the flag of deposed traitors smacked on the back window of their pickup truck. And unless either of them admitted it and I missed it, I’ve seen no evidence either of the adult Obamas benefited from affirmative action. For goodness sake, his grandmother was a bank VP and she graduated salutatorian of her high school class.
I also agree that the race construct was invented to keep the lower classes agitated and from finding a common enemy in the rich, but that doesn’t negate the fact that it is a critical part of our cultural fabric now, and still needs to be unwound. It also intersect frequently and directly with class issues, and at this point I think you can’t address the latter without dealing with the impact of the former.
I can’t remember now who said it, but I largely agree with something I once read: Democrats get traction by playing to the social needs of disenfranchised minorities while Republicans get traction by playing to the cultural values of disenfranchised whites while neither address the economic disparity and one-sided class war at work in America.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
I love it, once people pointed out that Portland is the outlier among Steve’s list of supposedly lily-white cities, he shifted gears to talk only about Portland and drop the rest of the list.
It’s not even an outlier. Portland is 7% black; Oregon is 2% black: a threefold enrichment of blacks in the city. This is the roughly the proportion you get for Wichita (16%) relative to Kansas (7%), or Minneapolis (17%) relative to Minnesota (4%), or Pittsburg (27%) relative to Pennsylvania (10%). If you really want to tease out a pattern for non-top-tier, non-Southern cities, it seems based on these four data points that black enrichment is actually correlated with the city being a happenin’ progressive place.
It’s really quite simple. The Pacific Northwest, the upper Mountain West, and the upper Frontier Strip are simply very white parts of the country. The two states in these areas with largish progressive cities are the two states that have largish cities at all, and these cities, like the rest of their states, are very white. Coeur d’Alene Idaho is as conservative as hell, is not a place I’d like to live at all, and is very white. If it got as large as Portland, it would still be all of the above.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
tomemos, you make good points.
My point about immigrant societies is that the conversation (and Matt’s post) seems to take place in a cultural/historical vacuum; these different frames of reference are indeed relevant to whether a position on immigration can be reasonably deemed ‘racist’, that’s all. One isn’t comparing apples and apples.
Also, you too easily dismiss the question of foreign policy and conduct from the overall evaluation of whether a society is racist. It is wholly pertinent to the discussion. But I understand how those who want to downplay American racism would want to exclude that factor.
David, I would suggest German’s ‘hard time’ talking about Jews probably has (something) to do with Germans’ sense of war guilt and the oppressive weight of history. But you’re obviously free to read whatever you want to into such communicative difficulties. My experience with Germans is clearly very different than yours, (as a generalization) I’ve found them to be some of the most open to the other people I’ve ever met.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
No seriously, did Steve Sailer ever meet his biological parents?
October 20th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
This may be true, but it would be enlightening to compare the behavior following the recent devastating tornado in Iowa to behavior following Hurricane Katrina.
Also, even with all those idiot whites in the Midwest, they seem to do pretty well on standardized tests:
http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_2007/m0005.asp?subtab_id=Tab_1&tab_id=tab1#chart
Overlap the above chart with this and the results become pretty easy to explain:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HD_unfqGw5I/Sk92cG3iOzI/AAAAAAAAAB8/5lV6o9xTrEg/s1600-h/black.jpg
So when are all you anti-racist liberals moving to Martin Luther King Boulevard (or what will probably be named Barack Obama Street in 5 years)?
I mean, diversity is such a great thing right?
October 20th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Also, Appalachia whites might have similar social pathologies as inner city blacks, but compare the percentages of these groups with respect to their entire racial cohorts. For example, let’s say we define a dysfunctional situation as having a child out of wedlock (not the best metric but it surely correlates well with bad life choices).
Well, 28% of white births are out of wedlock as compared to 70% of black births. That’s pretty staggering.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
[...] sweeping generalization, I’d say that’s pretty generally the case across Europe.” — Matthew Yglesias Share and Enjoy: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and [...]
October 20th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
If you want to blow Sailer, STD, get a room.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Steve, I don’t understand how you can make the explicit argument that minorities ruin cities and then say you’re not a racist. Or have you abandoned that lie and embraced what all of us have known about you for a while?
Also, you are fucking lying about Portland. You state that Portland has somehow “raised the drawbridge”. Someone upthread corrected you on this, noting that Portland has loosened a lot of it’s zoning restrictions, especially around transit stations, yet you persist in this lie. Are you being willfully dishonest, or are you so dumb you can’t see that building more densely creates housing stock in the same way as building a new subdivision? The whole freaking point of Portland’s growth policies has been to increase density and population in the city proper, so you’re idea that they’re no-growth is frankly ridiculous.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Re Average American at 95: Your point is, of course, correct. A number of the right wing elites who claim to speak for the interests of working class whites obviously despise those same workers and insult their intelligence.
That is why Bill O Reilly is tens of $Millions richer than he was in 2002 — whereas 4500 families have buried fathers/sons/husbands –and thousand more are trying to figure out how to nurse paraplegics for the next 40 years.
But you will notice that Democratic leaders don’t CONFRONT and INDICT Republicans in the public forum — they enable them.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
OK one more comment:
Yes there are very nice cities (e.g. Boston) with a large black population. But have you ever noticed the demographic mapping of such cities? The cities are almost entirely segregated and every single white person knows to never venture into a black dominated area, especially at night.
Yes the city overall is a good place to live, but that doesn’t include every single region of it. Unless you’re going to argue that all those SWPL New York City urbanites spend lots of time in Harlem and Marcy Projects.
“So let’s hope some European countries elect a Muslim president without waiting 200 years. And hopefully soon, to make wingnuts heads explode.”
Gosh I can’t imagine why an increasing Muslim population share and commensurate power would be a bad thing.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Warren,
I’d argue that any time America (or any nation) is engaged in a war the people in charge immediately produce propaganda to demonize the enemy. It was no different during WW II when Warner Bros. put out cartoons making fun of stereotypically German and Italian features, mannerisms, etc. And while American foreign policy does tend to singly out brown nations to go kick the shit out of for no reasons, I lay the blame for this solely at the feet of the chickenhawks that stir up our troubles. They want a war to prove the US is a badass, which means they want a war they can win, which means they aren’t going to go to war with an advanced, industrialized nation. That’s why we’re not gonna just roll back into Germany even though the Hamburg cell was based there. It’s why we did roll into VietNam even though our “real” concern was the USSR. And it’s why we rained hellfire back down on Iraq only after a decade of sanctioning the country into poverty.
Now, I will admit that once the “war effort” starts the tacit racism it elicits is nasty shit and we should be collectively ashamed. But it’s worth pondering if the difference is just that the United States is more apt to start wars and produce enemies to demonize than European nations. I’d say yes, and that’s because those countries have rightly decided it’s a better course of action to spend large portions of their GDPs on social welfare versus dumping it into a hole so they can run roughshod over the globe pissing off as many people as possible. Of course, a large part of the reason American politicians don’t decide to pursue a social welfare agenda is because they think the wrong groups of people would benefit, which is a byproduct of strong amounts of racism and greed. But then European nations bypassed this problem by having fairly tight immigration laws, so horse and carriage…
October 20th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
If it’s that obvious, you’d have the data to back it up. Since you don’t, and since your own attempts collapsed in self-parody, you’re left with what? A desperate need to blame your racism on the people you hate and with whom you cannot argue?
Yeah, I once had a dog that seemed to think he would grow up to be a human being.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
“Steve, I don’t understand how you can make the explicit argument that minorities ruin cities and then say you’re not a racist.”
Notice a pattern: http://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=69
How about this: http://guywhite.wordpress.com/race-crime-statistical-profile/
It’s not racist to use data and understand it’s obvious implications. And the statement “minorities ruin cities” is incorrect. Plenty of minorities don’t ruin cities: Chinese, Korean, right-wing Jews, Japanese, Indians (dot, not feather), etc.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Shit, that’s the best news I’ve heard all day.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Why, Pat’s America, of course.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
No, but it’s hilarious when the analysis is as stupid as your punctuation.
#3 was especially fun.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
If it’s that obvious, you’d have the data to back it up.
I hate to defend Steve about anything, but progressives, like everyone else, like to send their kids to good schools. As an example, the high school in the rich Charleston suburb I live in is 91% white. It’s one of the best in the state. The high school next to where I work is 94% black, and it’s a shithole. Your average upper middle class progressive might not be as likely as your upper middle class conservative to live in the suburb and have their kids go to the great school instead of the ghetto and the horrible one, but you can’t deny it can be a factor when making such decisions. At least here in the south, where most cities and schools are pretty heavily segregated, with huge differences in quality.
We don’t have to deny that those facts are true. The difference between us and Steve is that we think that situation is due to generations of entrenched poverty and a lack of education, rather than because blacks are stupid people. We think that’s a horrible situation that we should do what we can to fix, and we vote for candidates who try to make the situation better. Steve’s solution is just to acknowledge the problem, decide whites are better, and send his kids to the good schools while voting for whoever promises to keep the darkies away from his nice suburb.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
JM hates the trailer park and other repositories of poor whites. It stems from a childhood spent at Shady Acres listening to his mother and a host of “uncles” in the throws of passion. There is no place to escape to in a double wide.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Sailer @94: The bottom line is that
progressivesI make extremely race-conscious decisions intheirmy own private affairs, such as when picking where to live or where to sendtheirmy kids to school, and I project my racialism onto people generally, but especially onto progressive in hopes that it will irk them or make them doubt themselves.There, fixed that for ya.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Funny that Mr. Sailer left out the SF Bay area in his “white cities” analysis.
But oh, it fails to support the thesis. It’s out!
October 20th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
STDV is spot on. I had to deliver a giant stuffed bear to my girlfriend at Harlem around three in the morning last weekend.
And do know that not ONE person between the 135th street station and her place offered to help carry it?
It was just awful, boorish behavior.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
I know that in sailors twisted mind everyone is as racist as he is so this would never occur to him, but uh just maybe the reason progressive cities have a higher percentage of white populations is because there is no white flight? It isn’t that we keep minorities out is that we don’t leave. In most non progressive cities the reason the minority population is such a high percentage is because the whites all move out.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
It’s not racist to use data and understand it’s [sic] obvious implications.
If only Nathan Bedford Forrest had graphs to wave around.
Funny how Sailer’s little suck-up doesn’t spell out those “obvious implications” he sees. C’mon, kid, speak up. What’s your data implicatin’?
October 20th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Shouldn’t the points MY makes here be more… surprising? So in the US, which has a huge percentage of minorities who are poor, without health insurance, etc., we have… better race relations.
I guess these things might just be random data points. But it would be interesting to see someone study them in detail. Perhaps rich, white people in the US would be a bit more circumspect regarding poor minorities and poor immigrants… if we had to pay for them to do stuff.
Pretty easy to be nice to the help when you pay them $4.00 an hour under the table, and you are not on the hook for their healthcare.
It’s equally easy to ignore the violent minority ghettoes when all you have to do is not go near them. On the other hand, if 50 perent of your income is getting sacked to the guys from the hood get patched up proper, people might get irked.
A rather cruel calculus, but perhaps worth considering.
October 20th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
progressive, I sure hope you’re joking, especially considering the very deep, distressing economic suffering currently going on around the country (and yes, this does include a substantial chunk of white people). Maybe go down and hang out at your local food pantry/soup kitchen some evening, or hang out with families who can’t adequately support or provide for their kid(s) and themselves. Only people who have not experienced economic insecurity joke about poverty. We see from ‘progressive’ the serious, persistent issue of class-ism in our nation (and no, prejudice is not okay just because the target is poor white people—should I even need to explain this?).
And JM, on a somewhat corollary disturbing point, what do you mean by ‘Pat (Buchanan)’s America’ should die? I fail to see how one form of prejudice, or is it even genocidalism in this case?, is particularly better than another. But I love how you guys smugly rationalize your own prejudices and bigotry, let me guess, you’re both neo-liberals (ah, that would explain it).
October 20th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
[...] like Yglesias‘ take on the ridiculous article. At any rate, in some sense it’s probably true that white [...]
October 20th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
I’d have to say the average German is more racist than the average American. Again, I say median. You may have spent a semester at a German university and everyone was all liberal and multi cultural. Yes, that may very well be true. But, your average Johan Weissbier the BMW mechanic from Hamburg is going to be more racist than the average Joe Sixpack in the US.
That was my observation as well, living in France/Switzerland/Germany for 5+ years. In general the racism is more overt as you go farther south. A black friend of mine, who grew up in Texas, said she’d never encountered racism in the South of the US like what she found in the South of France or anywhere in Italy.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
David, I would suggest German’s ‘hard time’ talking about Jews probably has (something) to do with Germans’ sense of war guilt and the oppressive weight of history. But you’re obviously free to read whatever you want to into such communicative difficulties. My experience with Germans is clearly very different than yours, (as a generalization) I’ve found them to be some of the most open to the other people I’ve ever met.
Er, Warrren, who were you hanging out with? Germans are hardly open, as a rule. Sure I knew a lot of young educated Germans who had spent time abroad, and I’d say they were pretty open. But no more so than Americans or Brits or French people with the same background. But my experience is that Germans tend to be pretty rigid and have an almost Platonic view of correct behavior. And I say that as someone who likes Germany. As to the Jewish thing, that is merely an example, obviously Germans are particularly sensitive and awkward around Jews because of the Holocaust, but you’d think that would be a reason to know basic things such as if a Jew is a German, he is actually a German and not an Israeli. For example. But the question is broader than that.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Average American, you make some good points, but I don’t think the divergence in American and European foreign policy can be fully explained away by how the respective societies spend their money and allocate their resources, and this in supposed response to the particular make-up of their own domestic populations, as you say. It’s true that European social democracy probably is somewhat related to the relative homogeneity of European societies and cultures, but this doesn’t account for the EU’s (relative) beneficence toward the rest of the world vs. our murderous foreign policies and ‘wars’ of aggression & military occupations.
The missing ingredient here is ethics and morality. Money not spent on the general social welfare does not intrinsically have to go toward slaughtering brown-skinned people in foreign lands, as America is currently wont to do. We’re not even at war with Iran, yet our establishment media has reduced that nation to a bunch of blubbering, sub-human, genocidal freaks. I just don’t see how one can get around our penchant for destroying human life (preferably brown-skinned and Middle Eastern) and our discussion here of racism. Europeans have been consistently opposed to our recent wars of aggression, there apparently isn’t the same contemporary American desire to decimate the Other over across the pond.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Sailer’s Great Display of Logic:
Certainly, Los Angeles, which competed with San Francisco for the title of most fashionable city in America in the 1960s, is vastly less fashionable today, now that it is made up of such a huge proportion of illegal aliens and their descendants.
Yes, that must be the sole reason why Los Angles has become unpopular. Long commutes, uncontroled sprawl, and the loss of manufacturing jobs that were built up in the suburbs during WWII have nothing to do with that, it must be that the Latinos moved in.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Warren read this to get a better idea of what I mean: http://www.zeit.de/2003/24/Essay_Korn
It’s in German, but I assume you must speak it.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
If you want to attack Sailer’s thesis , saying Boston is a “black” city is not going to help you. Boston is one of the most segregated cities in the Northeast – you could spend years in the hipper bars, music clubs and restaurants without ever seeing an African-American.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
I think we’ll be waiting a while yet before someone of non-European ancestry is elected head of government in a European country.
So what? Is that a desirable thing in and of itself? France just elected a President of partial Jewish descent, and Germany is led by a woman. Those are both steps the US has yet to make. And your comment is pretty condescending toward Obama if you think about it – he’s half European and half African – you’re trying to say he’s of non-American ancestry? A European/African mix is about as American as you can get, going right back to this country’s founding, not really that radical. If the son of a Mexican immigrant or a practicing black Muslim gets elected President in the US that would be the true equivalent of Germany electing a person of Turkish ancestry, or Italy electing an African.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
David, I’ve spent some time in Germany, and as I said, I’ve clearly had some different experiences, impressions than you’ve had.
While they’re generally more formal (from my experience), they could also be quite goofy and unassuming. In general I found them to be more philosophical and critical thinking than most Americans, and this would seem to exist in some tension with your point about ‘correctness’.
Listen we all have our own anecdotal experiences to draw from. And all stereotypes of all peoples don’t just arise out of a vacuum, obviously I recognize the whole formal, stiff thing you’re talking about. I also remember how creative and original Germans could be, which I guess isn’t surprising given it’s the land of Gutenberg, Kant, Goethe and Beethoven. The other thing about German stereotypes is there are a lot of them and they tend to jostle up against and contradict one another.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
I’ve actually lived across the street from Marcy Projects for 4 years, have never had a single incident to report, and am much happier here with my 1500 square foot loft than I’d be in “whiter” Williamsburg further north with 1/4 the space for the same price.
Thrilled to death to see it get a shout-out from the racist troll gallery on this thread. Jay-Z would be proud.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Kroptkin,
Not to mention that LA is so unpopular that despite its traffic, sprawl, smog and so on it is still the 2nd largest city in America and people still pay what $800K for a 1,200 square foot 1950’s ranch house there?
October 20th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
Warren, Dave’s not talking about “formality”, nor is he talking about stereotypes or, really, anecdotal evidence. Read the article he linked to in Die Zeit. There was also an article in Profil on young Jews in Austria in which Michel Friedmann, a prominent German Jew, talked about some truly frightening poll results regarding the scale and spread of racism.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
And then there’s Vermont: probably the most progressive state in the country, and the whitest, too.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Warren,
I would argue that our country’s racism makes it easier to justify wars to the masses, but I would still disagree that it drives our decisions which countries whose destruction we engineer. The hatred for Mexicans in this country is visceral most places, and certainly the people in American border cities that are apparently (I say apparently because I have no firsthand knowledge so the whole thing could be bunk) getting hurt as a result of the Mexican drug cartels activities spilling over count as acts of aggression against this country, but none of our mainstream politicians (yet) suggest we go to war with Mexico, mostly because it would be a fight too close to home that might give us a black eye. Likewise, the case was to be made to invade Saudi Arabia given how many of the 9/11 hijackers came from there, and given that the resource payoff was much higher, but they’re a much wealthier and capable nation that Iraq was in 2003. Convenience and perceived ease drives the decisions, but racism helps make the sale.
You’re right that ethics and morals drive these choices, and I think as each industrialized nation has risen in prominence since WW II it’s had to decide the best investment of its capital. Most of the western European nations and Japan chose peaceful cultivation of their own societies. The US and USSR decided to wage wars by proxy against one another. After the US won due to Russia’s financial fatigue it opted not to re-prioritize and just went stomping around the globe looking for puppies to kick. We decided our ethics and morals were greed and international fireworks. The debate was couched in terms of Commies, welfare queens, crack babies, midnight basketball, and mandatory minimums; here racism played a huge part in maintaining the wrong priorities.
I appreciate the thoughtful discussion, thank you.
October 20th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
The Osmonds: white and wholesome.
The Jacksons: black and fucked up.
QED
October 20th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
“And then there’s Vermont: probably the most progressive state in the country, and the whitest, too.”
What the fuck point does Sailer even think he’s making? Has there been a rash of white flight to Vermont? Or black people driven out? What?
October 20th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
To address Matt’s point about the difference I have to own up to the fact that I’ve not only never been to Europe, but have no desire to go (I know what white people look like, don’t need to pay to see a quarter-continent full of them).
I mainly agree, that because white colonization of another people took place within America’s borders and not off in some distant land when the shit hit the fan we had to deal with it in a very intimate way. I think there’s a huge difference between India fighting for its independence from Britain and black Americans fighting for their independence from white Americans. Proximity alone means that sympathetic eyes within the country saw what was happening and decided to do something about it, and it also meant that after that freedom was achieved laws were written to address it (of course in good old American fashion, we made a progressive step forward with Reconstruction before slipping right on back in the Guilded Age; see also the New Deal and Reaganomics).
That said, is America’s picking a black president after the most despicable bastard in at least the last 100 years a real sign of progress? I guess, but quite frankly there were enough pissed off people that as long as the Dems didn’t dig up Huey Newton and run him they were going to win.
I think American racism is more repressed and less casual than European racism, but it’s at least just as systemic and institutional.
Funny though, how we’ve traded. Europeans seem more accepting of black Americans than America while we seem more accepting of European Jews than Europe. My ex is a 6′4″ black woman, and when she traveled Europe got the side eye when people assumed she was Ethiopian, but once they found out she was American it was mostly good. Likewise, American eyes aren’t too discerning and if you’re Jewish and darker than Albert Einstein you’ll likely be considered of terrorist descent.
October 20th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
You’ve won me over Cleve. Let’s just run some more freeways through black neighborhoods and call it a day, at least we’ll ease congestion.
October 20th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
“That said, is America’s picking a black president after the most despicable bastard in at least the last 100 years a real sign of progress? I guess, but quite frankly there were enough pissed off people that as long as the Dems didn’t dig up Huey Newton and run him they were going to win.”
Well, a Democrat was guaranteed to win in 1976 too, but a black man would have had no chance of being nominated. Nor would a woman, most likely. So, yes, I think it’s a sign of progress—even if the general election was a gimme, Obama would never have been in position to win in a previous era.
October 20th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
Fair enough tomemos.
October 21st, 2009 at 12:17 am
“Denmark has some great public policy ideas, but it’s also kind of made itself into the gated community of nations in a way I don’t find particularly appealing.”
But the people there are happy, and they have a low crime rate!
“In a new study aimed at charting each country’s levels of happiness, Denmark has scored top marks, followed closely by Switzerland, Austria and Iceland. Britain came 41st, 18 places behind the United States.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-is-the-worlds-happiest-country–official-410075.html
October 21st, 2009 at 12:19 am
I have been saying this for years. Look, we have race issues and the Euros have race issues but at least we actually make an attempt to properly DEAL with them. We are not awesome at dealing with them, but the Euros are much much worse at it than we are.
October 21st, 2009 at 12:19 am
“So I’m confused, does Sailer really hate portland, or does he really, really love it?”
Portland is a nice place. No question about it.
The question is: why is it a nice place?
Why doesn’t Sailer just say “I hate niggers”? Why all the smirking and dancing. You’re not Socrates, pal.
October 21st, 2009 at 12:21 am
[...] programs, their enthusiasm wanes. Matthew Yglesias, having just returned from Europe, today writes: And I think there’s also often a kind of image of Europe as a place where more of the [...]
October 21st, 2009 at 12:32 am
Half Sigma on the difference between Europe & the US:
“Please read this post, because it explains everything that until now has been a mystery to liberal and conservative economists alike.
I recently pointed out that the primary reason why it sucks to be poor is that you have to live near other poor people. And the reason you don
October 21st, 2009 at 12:33 am
The bottom line is that progressives make extremely race-conscious decisions in their own private affairs, such as when picking where to live or where to send their kids to school.
This is so weird. This statement is 1) true 2) does not at all contradict progressive theory (to conclude that the way I conduct my private affairs can be harmful to the public is, indeed, the ultimate vindication of progressivism) and 3) isn’t really related to the cities Steve’s talking about.
It’s not that white people want to live in Portland/Austin because black people can’t afford to live there, it’s that black people can’t afford to live there because white people want to live there.
October 21st, 2009 at 12:34 am
Sorry here is the link to the Sigma piece.
http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/05/if-it-didnt-suck-to-be-poor-why-europe-is-different.html
October 21st, 2009 at 12:35 am
“Why doesn’t Sailer just say “I hate n!ggers”? Why all the smirking and dancing. You’re not Socrates, pal.”
Because he doesn’t. Read his blog sometime.
October 21st, 2009 at 12:40 am
nbt 21 & 46:
That’s a feature not a bug, you dumbass. That IS dealing well with diversity. It’s fantastic that pieces of the whole world can live peacefully with each other WITHOUT giving up who they are to begin with.
And Chicago and Toronto have almost identical climates, except that Chicago is windier with more snow.
October 21st, 2009 at 12:41 am
Funny that Jay-Z had a somewhat different experience growing up there.
October 21st, 2009 at 12:42 am
“Just look at Barack Obama. I think we’ll be waiting a while yet before someone of non-European ancestry is elected head of government in a European country.”
You may be waiting even longer before a minority is elected head of government in Japan, India, or most other non-white countries.
Hopefully Europe has learned that increasing muslim immigration is going to create increased tensions in future (see the increase in anti-semitic violence with muslim migration).
In general it seems that diversity reduces social capital, and community involvement. Selecting for highly skilled migrants seems the best way of ameliorating this. Or at least not bringing in groups whose beliefs are sometimes hostile to liberal democracies (ie. gay rights, women’s rights etc).
October 21st, 2009 at 12:44 am
“Why doesn’t Sailer just say “I hate n!ggers”? Why all the smirking and dancing. You’re not Socrates, pal.”
Because he doesn’t. Read his blog sometime.
Sarah, please do not insult my intelligence with Orwellian falsehoods.
October 21st, 2009 at 12:46 am
“Sarah, please do not insult my intelligence with Orwellian falsehoods.”
What do you disagree with him on? Crime rates? The role of Bush & Clinton in pressuring lenders to lower standards to increase minority home ownership? Causes of achievement gaps between groups? Baseball statistics?
October 21st, 2009 at 12:49 am
Lamenter obviously is a crypto-racist himself. I lived in France and the UK for more than a year apiece and both those societies are more racist than the US, except whereever it is Lamenter makes his neighborhood a low-rent zone.
October 21st, 2009 at 12:53 am
Oh yeah, and I lived for twenty years in DC and was robbed seven times. Also, I was told by the black US Army heavyweight boxing champion personally that the most racist country he ever stayed in for more than a fortnight was—SWEDEN!!!
I know that will shock the denizens of this comment thread who have silly cartoons between their ears, like the usual suspects….
October 21st, 2009 at 1:01 am
In the last 100 years, there have genocides committed in almost every corner of Europe. The last time the United States had to fight in Europe to break up a war over race and religion was 10 FUCKING YEARS AGO! Until Europeans are willing to act on their own to stop these villains(including fucking Russia), they have no moral leg to stand on in questioning American foreign policy goals and outcomes. They should thank their stars every night that the United States never decides to just take everything they own. Completely invade their country and enslave their people. We could, you know. Has any country in the History of the World just decided NOT to conquer everything it was militarily capable of seizing? So STFU and stop whining about Bush and global warming or we’ll come over there and take your shit and use it to pay the Chinese.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:03 am
Read his blog sometime.
Since he spends so much time shitting over this one, thanks, but no thanks, especially given the standard of you and the other groupies who accompanied him here tonight.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:07 am
What do you disagree with him on?
Isn’t it funny that Sailer and his buddies have found, through the miracle of graphs, that it’s okay to be racist cunts?
Except that they never have the courage to come out and say just what the “obvious implications” of all their graphs could be.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:11 am
Somebody give Sailer a gasoline soaked cross and some matches, to keep him occupied.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:19 am
[...] 21, 2009 Matthew Yglesias wrote today about how Europe isn’t as advanced as we Americans like to think in terms of race [...]
October 21st, 2009 at 1:21 am
“Sarah, please do not insult my intelligence with Orwellian falsehoods.”
“What do you disagree with him on? Crime rates? The role of Bush & Clinton in pressuring lenders to lower standards to increase minority home ownership? Causes of achievement gaps between groups? Baseball statistics?”
I disagree that human beings of African descent are inherently biologically inferior to human beings of different descent. Is that clear enough for you?
October 21st, 2009 at 1:22 am
The best, happiest places in the world (Northern European nations, Japan, Canada) and within the United States are culturally homogeneous, white and/or Asian. This is not a secret. Cultural homogeneity breeds social involvement, and concern for one’s fellow citizen.
The worst U.S. cities – Detroit, Memphis, East St. Louis – also have something in common: a large number of poor, criminal blacks.
It’s not the poor part: poor whites in Appalachia don’t commit nearly the same amount of crime that poor blacks do.
Loathsome as it might be for some to admit, black culture is overwhelmingly horrible, and promotes a criminal lifestyle. Obviously there are exceptions, yet on the whole, black culture is producing losers who will be drains on society.
[I'm ready for the predictable "racist" accusations, even though I don't believe in racial superiority.]
October 21st, 2009 at 1:25 am
@155 Oh yeah, and I lived for twenty years in DC and was robbed seven times That is the risk you take when you dabble in the rough trade.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:30 am
Loathsome as it might be for some to admit, black culture is overwhelmingly horrible, and promotes a criminal lifestyle.
I knew there was something wrong with all those big hats the Sunday Set wears. And all that singing and dancing is obviously detrimental.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:33 am
Don’t be fatuous, concur.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:36 am
I’m ready for the predictable “racist” accusations, even though I don’t believe in racial superiority.]
I’m genuinely astonished that you don’t believe that you’re racist.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:38 am
But MFD, Detroit is culutrally homogeneous, by your own reasoning it should be like Black Disneyland!
Also, as someone who worked as a reporter in Appalachian America, let me tell you my po’ white brothers and sisters committed just as much crime as I’ve seen anywhere else. Also – and I haven’t read the papers in a while so I could be off – but I can’t remember the last time I read about a church in South East DC getting robbed and a little girl almost getting shot in the process, but I was fortunate enough to cover that story in rural North Carolina.
Loathsome as it might be for some to admit, black culture is American culture forced on a captive audience. And until white people are ready to admit and address that issue, they can kindly mind their own business.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:43 am
I’m genuinely astonished that you don’t believe that you’re racist.
I won’t stand here and take false accusations from a child molester like Anthony!
Nothing I have said indicates a belief in racial superiority, which is what racism entails. Pointing out cultural superiority between =/= racism.
But MFD, Detroit is culutrally homogeneous, by your own reasoning it should be like Black Disneyland!
Yeah, that’s why I said cultural homogeneous, white and/or Asian. The second half of that equation matters too.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:46 am
So then whites/Asians are superior at keeping the peace?
October 21st, 2009 at 1:47 am
Nothing I have said indicates a belief in racial superiority, which is what racism entails. Pointing out cultural superiority between =/= racism.
Nope.
Amazing. I thought that nothing that the disgusting racists who pollute this blog could surprise me, but I was wrong.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:48 am
Also, your reference to Canada shows that you have no idea what you’re talking about, even for a racist.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:49 am
Canada is homogenous? News to me. New to anyone in Quebec or a big Canadian city, too.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:49 am
Blacks haven’t produced a “good” (productive, low crime, educated) city, state, or nation so far. I’ll give you 500 years to think of a counter-example.
What do modern-day blacks have to point to with pride? Detroit? Gary? It’s a long list of awful places. Poor blacks immigrate, poor blacks bring their poor black culture, and soon it’s crime, declining schools, drugs, and social breakdown.
I don’t believe that blacks are genetically inferior; I believe that their prevalent ghetto culture is keeping them locked in cycles of bad decision making.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:50 am
Pointing out cultural superiority
Gosh, you’re full of culture.
Sorry, I meant “full of shit”.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:52 am
So then whites/Asians are superior at keeping the peace?
Vastly superior values. Asians have better values than whites, on average, which explains why the average Asian outperforms the average white.
Both value the family. They value education.
Hispanics value the family, but not education. Blacks value neither. 70% out of wedlock!
October 21st, 2009 at 1:52 am
I’ll give you 500 years to think of a counter-example.
The United States of America.
Thanks, you’re done. Now fuck off.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:52 am
North and South Korea were culturally homogenous and Asian before communism intervened. Ditto Vietnam.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:53 am
This Machine Kills Fascists
Hush, adults are talking.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:54 am
I don’t believe that blacks are genetically inferior; I believe that their prevalent ghetto culture is keeping them locked in cycles of bad decision making.
So black people all over the world–you mentioned that they “haven’t produced a ‘good’ nation”–have a ghetto culture?
Seriously, why is it that today’s racists won’t admit that they’re racist. As others have pointed out in this thread, you really don’t have the courage of your (disgusting) convictions anymore. Racists today aren’t what they used to be.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:55 am
Alright, so removing cross cultural influences we have…
Whites/Asians are superior at keeping the peace because their culture is superior. Their culture is superior because their values are superior. Independent of outside influence values are shaped by psychology. Psychology is shaped by biology. And biology is shaped by genetic.
QED You think whites/Asians are genetically superior.
You defined racism as a belief in racial superiority.
QED You are, by your own definition, a racist. Thanks for playing.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:55 am
Hush, adults are talking.
You’re telling him to “hush” and referring to yourself as an adult in this conversation? Really?
October 21st, 2009 at 1:57 am
No, really: you’re done. You lost. Back to Stormfront you go.
Bye, motherfucking dog-rapist. (That is your full name, right?)
October 21st, 2009 at 1:58 am
Yeah, you’re done. But before you slink off—-can you let us know how sick fucks like you keep finding your way over here? Why this blog?
October 21st, 2009 at 1:58 am
I’ll give you 500 years to think of a counter-example.
The United States of America.
Bad example. For most of its history, the United States has been upwards of 90% white. This country was built mostly by whites.
What majority-black city, state, or country do you look at and deem a “success”?
October 21st, 2009 at 1:59 am
One has to be careful in talking about European racism. There is a lot of national variation. Sweden and France will be quite different, and so will Ireland and Italy.
I tend to think Canada has been the most succesful Western country in developing a culture of tolerance and diversity, based on respect for the rights of all. I would say there is less racism in Canada than in the US.
New Zealand (where I am from) is also pretty good – and we have a very good public health system too. Whatever may be the case in Europe, multiculturalism is certainly alive and well in New Zealand. And we have made considerable progress in providing acknowledgment and redress for the wrongs committed toward the indigenous Maori in the past. Though I would be the first to say there is still much that needs to be done in this regard, I am optimistic for the future of race relations in New Zealand.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:01 am
*Ignoring This Machine Kills Fascists until he acts like an adult*
Don’t put words in my mouth you jackoffs. I believe in cultural superiority, yes. Not biological superiority, or genetic superiority.
If an average black was raised with white (or Asian) values, they would be just as productive as an average white or Asian would.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:04 am
*Ignoring This Machine Kills Fascists until he acts like an adult*
Don’t put words in my mouth you jackoffs. I believe in cultural superiority, yes. Not biological superiority, or genetic superiority.
If an average black was raised with white (or Asian) values, they would be just as productive as an average white or Asian would.
Sorry, adults don’t say or think racist things like that.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:05 am
This country was built mostly by whites.
So, so stupid.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:07 am
Also, I’d like to officially remove myself from any “culture” that you think we both belong to. You’re wrong.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:09 am
Anthony
I’m waiting for you to add intelligence to the conversation, but my patience isn’t limitless. Please try harder next time.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:11 am
My culture – predominantly European – values family, education, and community.
If you want to disassociate yourself from that, go ahead.
Maybe you can be adopted by ghetto subculture. Hope you like ‘bling.’
October 21st, 2009 at 2:14 am
I’m waiting for you to add intelligence to the conversation, but my patience isn’t limitless. Please try harder next time.
Awesome, a smart-ass racist. If you’re not going to answer my question about how members of a disgusting fringe minority–racists like you–keeping finding their way over here, feel free to slink away.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:16 am
Maybe you can be adopted by ghetto subculture. Hope you like ‘bling.’
yup, and that’s where your “culture, not race” dodge falls apart, as I noted above. You make statements about all black people, everywhere–they’ve never built a “good nation”–and then try to say you’re not racist, you’re criticising the bad decisions of ghetto culture. I’m sure you can see why this is transparently racist.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:17 am
My culture – predominantly European – values family, education, and community.
If you want to disassociate yourself from that, go ahead.
I’m fairly disgusted at the suggestion that I could have anything culturally in common with you.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:19 am
I’ll repeat myself, since apparently literacy isn’t your strong suit: I will leave when I’m fine and ready, thank you.
Only a mental child is unable to distinguish between race (such as it exists, at any rate) and culture (which most certainly does exist).
White culture is on the whole vastly superior to black culture. This explains most of the great prosperity whites have enjoyed that blacks have not.
It seems to me that if you DISAGREE with me – and that culture isn’t the issue – then you believe the reason for low black achievement isn’t a nurture issue, but a nature issue. Do you think blacks are genetically inferior? Because that’s actually quite racist.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:21 am
Yeah, you’re done. A looooong time ago it might have been worth “debating” you, but you sick fucks don’t matter anymore, thankfully.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:23 am
You should be proud that you value education and hard work- those are good virtues.
Now, do all white people share these values? Of course not. Many whites don’t partake in white culture, and they end up losers as well.
Blacks who buy into white culture, study hard and work hard – they will all do well. Blacks who don’t, generally fail.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:24 am
Anthony
………..
Translation: I got nothing.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:39 am
Just when you thought it was safe to feel good about America….racists everywhere!
I’ll ask you again: how do you guys find us, and why do you like this blog so much?
And the idea that black people all over the world are part of a culture that includes ghetto-influenced decision making is just too stupid to take seriously. It’s not even a cover for racism…it’s hiding racism behind racism.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:45 am
1) I feel good about America whether there are racists or no racists, liberals or conservatives, people I agree with or people I don’t.
Do you not always feel proud of America? Are you… Michelle Obama?
2) I got to this blog the same way as you did, friend-o.
3) Ghetto culture is an African-American problem, which is why African immigrants to America (who don’t buy into the ghetto nonsense) do quite well. They are hard workers, and model immigrants.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:49 am
1) I feel good about America whether there are racists or no racists, liberals or conservatives, people I agree with or people I don’t.
Do you not always feel proud of America? Are you… Michelle Obama?
uh…of course not. Not when I realize that people like you are still around.
but then I realize that we Americans have done a good job of marginalizing you and making sure that your children won’t share your poison, and I feel good about America again.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:50 am
3) Ghetto culture is an African-American problem, which is why African immigrants to America (who don’t buy into the ghetto nonsense) do quite well. They are hard workers, and model immigrants.
I thought black people had never created a good society, anywhere.
This would be much easier if you just admitted that you’re a racist ass instead of twisting yourself into this stupid “culture” pretzel.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:50 am
If I could swap out every disgruntled African-American ghetto loser with a hard-working immigrant from Africa, I’d do that deal in a heartbeat.
I would also trade every last disgruntled white trash loser for a hard-working immigrant. The skin color’s not the issue; the culture is.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:51 am
2) I got to this blog the same way as you did, friend-o.
I doubt that. Racists like you have been all over the comments here lately. It can’t be coincidence. Which white power site (with graphs!) has been linking here?
October 21st, 2009 at 2:53 am
Compare this:
The skin color’s not the issue; the culture is.
with this:
Blacks haven’t produced a “good” (productive, low crime, educated) city, state, or nation so far. I’ll give you 500 years to think of a counter-example.
and this:
The best, happiest places in the world (Northern European nations, Japan, Canada) and within the United States are culturally homogeneous, white and/or Asian.
Are all racists as dumb as you? I hope so. And seriously, learn something about Canada.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:54 am
Stormfront
Just kidding, Fark.com, tard.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:56 am
If you really want to learn about the deep pathology of the black subculture (lazy good for nothing dirty tricksters, crack smokin’ swindlers, eating up all the chickens, think they are the best dancers and they stink) you should read my book “I Smell Nigger”
White Power!
October 21st, 2009 at 2:58 am
Every thing I’ve said stands as factual. Feel free to debunk them; I’m waiting for your explanation.
Black culture is unsuitably fit to produce great cities, states, or nations. They are too concerned with violence, religion and civil war (in Africa) or drugs and thug cred (in America).
Prove me wrong. I eagerly anticipate your next sputtering response.
October 21st, 2009 at 3:00 am
Haha, I love Dave Chappelle! I met him after a show, he was very nice.
He’s also an example of a hard-working, grounded young black man, the type ghetto blacks should aspire to (not as a comedian, obviously, but as a hard-worker).
October 21st, 2009 at 3:02 am
Again, the fact that you represent a fringe minority on the wrong side of history (and your mother’s basement) makes me feel a little better about my country and culture.
October 21st, 2009 at 3:03 am
Ah, ad-hominems, hallmarks of the inept.
October 21st, 2009 at 3:05 am
It’s not an ad hominem, it’s an explanation of why I won’t walk through your circular racist distraction: because you don’t matter and the views you represent don’t count for anything.
October 21st, 2009 at 3:09 am
Fair enough! I never claimed to personally matter, only the ideas I was discussing ever did.
Apparently you’d rather focus on me than engage my argument. That is why I say “Ad hominem! Your admission of defeat.”
Listen, the way disagreements are resolved amongst civilized people is with the exchange of premises. I have offered mine, which you have not refuted, nor have you really addressed.
October 21st, 2009 at 3:09 am
civil war (in Africa)
Golly! I wonder if colonialism has anything to do with that.
October 21st, 2009 at 3:12 am
only the ideas I was discussing ever did.
no, they don’t. That’s the point. It’s like arguing with a flat-earther or a 9/11 truther. They, and you, are convinced of stupid and/or disgusting things, but can’t really affect anything, have been successfully marginalized, and hold to your sick beliefs in a cultish manner. So, who cares?
October 21st, 2009 at 3:12 am
Adam Villani
Of course it did! That is why I’ll extended the time-frame back 500 years (roughly the time since America’s discovery), which you’ll be glad to know includes a time before European colonialism.
October 21st, 2009 at 3:18 am
Also, colonialism can’t explain everything.
Colonial possessions that bounced back and became prosperous: Vietnam, China, Hong Kong, Brazil, India, etc.
Colonial possessions that remain screw-ups: Africa (with a few exceptions)
October 21st, 2009 at 3:31 am
Last though for the night:
It is sad that we cannot have honest discussions about race even in the age of President Obama (a man whom I greatly admire).
If the average African-American worked even half as hard as Obama did, or valued family cohesion the way Obama does, they would be amongst the ranks of the high achieving. This is their choice.
{I am sympathetic to the legacy of slavery and racism, but we’re getting to the point where not a person alive has ever seen a slave. Jim Crow has been off the books for a while. A history of brutal oppression didn’t hold back the Chinese or Irish for very long; how much longer will African-Americans need to get their act together?}
October 21st, 2009 at 3:35 am
The persistence of guys like you shows that we’re not really dealing with the “legacy” of racism. We’re dealing with flat-out racism.
October 21st, 2009 at 3:46 am
It is sad that we cannot have honest discussions about race even in the age of President Obama (a man whom I greatly admire).
You mean “honest discussions about culture”, right?
October 21st, 2009 at 3:50 am
What’s different in Europe, I think, is that their underclass has a different racial composition. The blacks seem well-integrated everywhere and quite comfortable in all social situations, unlike in the US. North Africans, on the other hand, often seem a bit out of place, awkward: they are heavily represented in the underclass and for that, of course, despised by some natives.
But this can change quickly; racial and ethnic groups integrate, new groups replace them as the underclass. Italian friend tells me that 30 years ago many boutiques in Zurich had window sign “no dogs or Italians”, and now Italians are, of course, welcome everywhere.
October 21st, 2009 at 4:31 am
Well, one thing is for sure, in Europe, many comments here would get deleted. And thats a good thing.
October 21st, 2009 at 4:42 am
Wrong. The head of government in India (the PM) is Sikh, a minority. The most powerful politician in India (the president of the Congress party) is Sonia Gandhi, 100% Italian and Catholic.
Please people if you don’t know wtf you’re talking about (when it comes to India or Canada or whatever), just look it up won’t you?
October 21st, 2009 at 5:00 am
I live in the Czech Republic (have lived in Europe for about 2 full years, have a Czech wife/family, etc.), and since coming here, I have come to miss America’s integrated society.
When I still lived at home, I certainly noticed the segregation that takes place in the U.S., and was at times frustrated by it. But, after moving to Europe and traveling extensively here, I have come to respect America’s (or perhaps Americans’) ability to see past racial and gender barriers.
Sure there is still pervasive racism in many areas of the U.S., but I really think it will take centuries for there not to be. I was at a soccer game in Paris and the crowd made monkey noises when an African player (a French citizen of Algerian descent) touched the ball. I just can’t imagine this happening in America.
Here in the CZ, and throughout the central/eastern region, the Roma are treated like absolute garbage, and foreigners in general are looked down upon.
It was a big deal last year when the first German of Turkish heritage was elected to the Bundestag…Turks make up about 25% (at least) of the population. Wow, what a triumph.
The U.S. ain’t perfect, but it’s a lot better than Europe at tolerance.
October 21st, 2009 at 5:02 am
To Anthony & David (sorry to disrupt this ‘illuminating’ thread above). My German is actually pretty poor, it’s been a good deal of time since I was there and I just made it through 2nd year way back when in any case, but otherwise I’d read the Die Zeit article. But I’m completely fluent in French if you want to throw any French articles at me. Your point(s) about European racism is well taken, though.
The ever-sickening display of (perennial) American racism is pretty well on display above here (thanks to MFD, Clayton Bigsby and Sarah), though, and doesn’t hurt my point. They are so divorced from reality it’s hard to even know where to begin.
Listen, shitheads, arguably the only truly ORIGINAL cultural product and gift to the world to come out of America was forged and developed by black Americans, you ever heard of jazz? Bird, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Dexter Gordon, Ella Fitzgerald and on down the long august list. The massive cultural contribution of blacks to the greatness of America is unquantifiable, it is truly MASSIVE. Please, you racist freaks, go piss your poison somewhere else and try to get a life. Ayaiyaiyai.
October 21st, 2009 at 8:10 am
The Native Americans were the first to loss their country!
October 21st, 2009 at 8:34 am
JH writes:
JH, I’ve spent lots of time in Germany, and can assure you that Matt’s observation is dead on. My experience is that German’s don’t even understand what racism is. They think racism is beating up brown people. They think it’s perfectly acceptable to discriminate in schools or even the work place. They are decades behind us. And I do not discount our own problems.
October 21st, 2009 at 8:58 am
The country’s alright, it’s white people’s automatic place at the top of society that Pat fears is gone with the wind.
October 21st, 2009 at 8:59 am
[...] Matt Yglesias typically says little that I like, but this time he’s got a point. In the US, in other words, racial problems have been more salient for a long time since we’ve been a racially diverse society for a long time. But by the same token, for all the problems we have with us today, we’ve made enormous progress over the years. Racial and ethnic tensions are a common problem in the world, and the United States manages diversity pretty well in comparison with other places (not just in Europe) even if we fall short in some absolute terms. Just look at Barack Obama. I think we’ll be waiting a while yet before someone of non-European ancestry is elected head of government in a European country. Denmark has some great public policy ideas, but it’s also kind of made itself into the gated community of nations in a way I don’t find particularly appealing. [...]
October 21st, 2009 at 9:33 am
What about the Irish? Are they European? You know they worship the Pope!!
Or France? Sarkozy is of Hungarian heritage. And anybody who knows Hungarians recognizes as indisputable fact that they are barely European. They share a language group with the Finns!!!
It’s totally ridiculous.
In Canada, the ex-Premier of British Columbia is a Shikh and now sits in the Federal Parliment in Ottawa as a Liberal. And the Prime Minister is a full-on robot.
… Canada wins!!!
October 21st, 2009 at 9:45 am
Clayton Bigsby
For the record, “Clayton Bigsby” was a Dave Chappelle character, a blind white supremacist who didn’t know he was black. “Clayton Bigsby”’s post contained several quotes from the sketch. I’m sure it was written with tongue in cheek.
You may be waiting even longer before a minority is elected head of government in Japan
In addition to India, the Japanese Prime Minister from September 2008 to September 2009 was a Roman Catholic, although he was fully Japanese. I agree that it will be a long time before we see a Japanese-Korean elected to PM of Japan.
But you’re absolutely wrong about India.
October 21st, 2009 at 9:55 am
“It was a big deal last year when the first German of Turkish heritage was elected to the Bundestag…Turks make up about 25% (at least) of the population. Wow, what a triumph.”
Indeed what a triumph of stereotypes over facts your comment is. People with a Turkish background are arround 3% of the population in Germany and Czem Özdemir was elected Party head, there are numerous mps with a turkish background.
October 21st, 2009 at 10:03 am
Let’s not forget President Alberto Fujimori of Peru. He followed Heads of State of East Asian descent in Guyana and Suriname.
October 21st, 2009 at 10:08 am
MFD @162: The best, happiest places in the world (Northern European nations, Japan, Canada) and within the United States are culturally homogeneous, white and/or Asian.
Uh, Canada is culturally homogeneous? Is this the same Canada as the one I’m thinking of that includes Quebec? The same one with 20% of its population foreign born? Also, as Matt presented before, Sweden’s foreign-born population is 18% — higher than the U.S.’s.
October 21st, 2009 at 10:16 am
Listen, shitheads, arguably the only truly ORIGINAL cultural product and gift to the world to come out of America was forged and developed by black Americans, you ever heard of jazz?
Hey hey! Given whose blog this is, we mustn’t forget comic books. (All Jews, of course. And mostly children or grandchildren of immigrants who had fled pre-War anti-Semitism on the Continent.)
October 21st, 2009 at 10:39 am
Warren,
Just one more point about German criticism. I agree that many (educated) Germans like to have a good thorough back and forth on issues, and I really like that. But Americans on the left who are critical of aspects of America should be aware that it is tempting to think just because you can find a bunch of people who agree with you, doesn’t mean those people are critical thinkers. I’d say the same percentage of Germans and Americans are genuinely critical thinkers. Two examples:
I taught English in a Gymnasium and we discussed the issue of Asians working in garment factories against their will in places like Chinatown in NY. We had a great discussion about this modern form of slavery. But when I asked, well, what about the prostitutes in Germany from Eastern Europe and Central Asia. Then everyone said, oh, they are working voluntarily. It was very difficult for me to get them to even consider that there might be a problem with modern slavery in their own country.
Another example, I talked with a Green feminist theologian who was very upset about some of the stories she heard about discrimination against muslims in the US after 9/11. We agreed that this was bad and agreed on some of the causes. But when I tried to argue that in the main, I’d rather be a muslim in the US than in Germany, she got very defensive. Sure, it very, very difficult to build a mosque in Germany, sure you are implicitly not part of the white, german, christian/post-Christian Gesellschaft, but that is because Gemrany is not an immigrant country. That’s true, but there are causes and reasons for the problems in the US too. And I still submit it is easier to really belong to American society as a muslim than it is in Germany.
October 21st, 2009 at 10:46 am
“Warren, Dave’s not talking about “formality”, nor is he talking about stereotypes or, really, anecdotal evidence. Read the article he linked to in Die Zeit. There was also an article in Profil on young Jews in Austria in which Michel Friedmann, a prominent German Jew, talked about some truly frightening poll results regarding the scale and spread of racism.”
First you give us some unknown journalist screaming arround i am Jewish and i am not threated nice because people think i am from Israel.
And Michel Friedmann is well, Michel Friedmann, prominent in a way yes. Mainly for attacking his interview partners with cheap moralicing rethoric, no matter if there is a basis for it or not. If there actually is a basis when they are some 85 year old fringe Nazis or crazy catholic fundamentalist billionaire that would best be just ignored, much better. He got a proof for how racist everyone is then!
October 21st, 2009 at 10:56 am
You don’t live there?
October 21st, 2009 at 12:42 pm
[...] in America and in Europe Posted on October 21, 2009 by Bento Via Matt Yglesias: Pat Buchanan says, of white people, “America was once their country. They sense they are losing [...]
October 21st, 2009 at 12:42 pm
urgs,
Come on. The Die Zeit essay isn’t by some “unknown journalist”. It’s by Salomon Korn, the VP of the central committee of Jews in Germany.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Korn
I believe Friedmann also held this position. What both of them have to say about being Jewish in Germany shouldn’t be brushed off. (And anyway, I wasn’t citing Friedmann exactly; I was noting that it was he, in the Profil article, who mentioned the disturbing polling results about the percentage of people who would object to having Jewish neighbour etc.)
This kind of dogmatic rejection of the lived experience of German Jews is exactly the kind of rigidity on racial/ethnic matters that I presume David was getting at.
You should really know who Korn is, or visit a Juedische Gemeinde in any major city and talk to the people there, or read the Juedische Allgemeine or the Juedische Zeitung, before cavalierly dismissing things. None of us is saying that anti-Semitism is a huge concern in Germany or questioning the German commitment to the Rechtsstaat and living up to the burden of the past. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room to critique the difficult position into which German Jews are often discursively positioned.
October 21st, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Well said Anthony.
Urgs, one other point I like to add. The reason I mentioned the Korn article was not just to say Germans have problems with Jews. It was also because I assumed that someone like Warren, to whom this was orginally addressed, would be smart enough to understand that the problems that Germans have fitting Jews into their conception of “we” or society (Gemeinschaft) also extends to other minorities. Read this from Korn’s piece and substitute “jew” and “jewish” with “Arab” or “Roma” or “Asian”:
Ein Blick in die USA zeigt: Das Verhältnis zwischen jüdischen und nichtjüdischen Amerikanern unterscheidet sich von dem zwischen jüdischen und nichtjüdischen Deutschen. Dort herrscht eine Normalität, wie es sie in der deutsch-jüdischen Vergangenheit nie gegeben hat. Sie beruht nämlich auf der Eingliederung der Juden in eine pluralistische Form von Staat und Gesellschaft, nicht aber in ein uniformes Staatsgebilde. Amerikanisch-jüdische Normalität bedeutet Anerkennung eines gewissen Eigenlebens und „Andersseins“ der Juden Amerikas innerhalb der Mehrheitsgesellschaft. Diese Normalität macht die Gleichheit vor dem Gesetz und im gesellschaftlichen Zusammenleben nicht vom bedingungslosen Aufgehen der Juden im Staatsganzen abhängig. Sie zeichnet sich dadurch aus, dass sie nicht nur die Gleichstellung der jüdischen Individuen, sondern auch die der jüdischen Gruppe als Ganzer ohne größere Schwierigkeiten ermöglicht.
Anders die Wirklichkeit deutsch-jüdischer „Normalität“. Sie ist die Folge einer Entwicklung, die im 18. Jahrhundert mit den Ideen von Humanismus, Aufklärung, Emanzipation begann, aber während des 19. Jahrhunderts von nationalstaatlichen Interessen unterhöhlt wurde. Die ursprünglich universellen grenzüberschreitenden Vorstellungen von Freiheit, Gleichheit und Brüderlichkeit waren mit einem auf strenge Abgrenzung gegenüber anderen Völkern und Kulturen bedachten Nationalismus, wie er sich vor allem in Deutschland ausbildete, unvereinbar. Die Juden, deren rechtliche Gleichstellung aus dem Geist des europäisch geprägten Humanismus hervorgegangen war, sahen sich nun durch einen Nationalismus ausgegrenzt, der sich auf partikulare kulturelle und religiöse Traditionen des so genannten deutschen „Volkstums“ berief.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:01 pm
First you give us some unknown journalist screaming arround i am Jewish and i am not threated nice because people think i am from Israel.
As David said, it’s not that he’s not “treated nice”, it’s that the first assumption is that he’s not part of the national community, he’s an “other”. This is true of, for example, third-generation Turks with no accent in a way that is not true of third-generation Turkish- and Arab-Americans.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:31 pm
The fact that this thread is this long proves Sailer is a racist. See? Its a fact! because I said so and its correlation can’t possibly be explained by anything else than what I say.
October 21st, 2009 at 3:13 pm
So Germans still think like Carl Schmidt excluding Jews on their side while Americans include jews, which can be explained by NSDAP Volksgemeinschaft ideology still in place. That makes sense
.
I hear Americans think Hägen Dazs is from Sweden. Can we somehow conclude racism from that?
Here some more German racism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHAj23RKRMU
(he colord his skin! Dont do that to a party (or to play an Obama parody). Its racial insensitive.
October 21st, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Urgs, come on. Korn–not “some journalist” but a prominent German Jew–made a good-faith effort to reflectively analyze a phenomenon he has experienced in terms of how Germans understand Jews and where they fit into societal conceptions. He didn’t assume bad motives–far from it, if you read the artice–and no one is talking about Nazis. If you can’t tell from my posts so far, I am quite comfortable in Germany. You are really not engaging with the article in good faith, and your casual dismissal of Korn’s and others’ lived experience is, again, what David and I were talking about.
Also, I’m sure you’re familiar with the history of blackface in America; it was a performative aspect of an ideological regime that dehumanized black people. Context matters.
October 21st, 2009 at 5:58 pm
I’m probably too late to respond to Nolaboyd at #149, but I’ll try.
That’s a feature not a bug, you dumbass. That IS dealing well with diversity. It’s fantastic that pieces of the whole world can live peacefully with each other WITHOUT giving up who they are to begin with.
And Chicago and Toronto have almost identical climates, except that Chicago is windier with more snow.
Well, I guess we just disagree about the cultural issue. I believe a city should have diverse neighborhoods that are mutually welcoming. If a Hungarian dude can’t walk into a Chinese place for some bubble tea and feel that his business is welcomed, that’s a problem. And that’s how I’ve felt in some parts of Toronto. (Note, I’m not Hungarian- just picked that randomly. :> )
Also, Chicago is definitely windier, I grant you. However, Toronto has way more snow. Average annual snowfall in Chicago: 38 inches. Average annual snowfall in Toronto: 133 cm, or 52 inches.
Today Chicago is 70 degrees F, which is pretty awesome. But I’m not looking forward to winter here.
October 21st, 2009 at 7:35 pm
To sum up, the progressive point of view is that it’s okay for us to make major life decisions, like moving to Portland, to avoid Non-Asian Minorities, but it’s evil to notice why we’re doing it.
Reminds me of the scene in “Deuce Bigelow, European Gigolo,” where Deuce (Rob Schneider) finds T.J. Hicks (Eddie Griffin) by looking at the only Waffles and Chicken joint in Holland.
TJ: How’d you find me?
Deuce: It’s the only chicken and waffles place in Holland.
TJ: So a black man’s gotta be at a chicken and waffles place? That’s racist.
Deuce: But you are here.
TJ: Yeah, but figuring it out is racist.
October 21st, 2009 at 8:02 pm
To sum up, the progressive point of view is that it’s okay for us to make major life decisions, like moving to Portland, to avoid Non-Asian Minorities, but it’s evil to notice why we’re doing it.
Can you read? So, so stupid.
October 21st, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Steve Sailer doesn’t see New York City or San Francisco. He only sees race.
But seriously, did he ever meet his parents? Why did they give him up for adoption? What was in their genes?
October 22nd, 2009 at 12:54 am
Sailer is a truth speaker. He points out the hypocrisy of the class of people who send their children to Sidwell Friends.
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:23 am
I would have to agree with MattY on this one, and perhaps go further. There does seem to be a conflict between egalitarianism and multiculturalism, perhaps an inherent one. Though, I think, I hope, it is not and insoluble conflict. We will, after all, be a majority minority country soon. I wonder, has any modern industrialized nation had this distinction; are we, once again, at the forefront of something?
On a related note, Sullivan has an interesting take on this from a more… Atlanticist perspective (my first non-sexual double entendre!) It’s really just excellent.
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Matt
I suggest you read this essay by James Baldwin from 1955
“Stranger in the Village”
https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/gjay/www/Whiteness/stranger.htm
He spent several months in Switzerland writing and found the locals beyond racist, who saw him more as a curiosity than contemptible.
From the conclusion:
“And despite the terrorization which the Negro in America endured and endures sporadically until today, despite the cruel and totally inescapable ambivalence of his status in his country , the battle for his identity has long ago been won. He is not a visitor to the West, but a citizen there, an American; as American as the Americans who despise him, the Americans who fear him, the Americans who love him-the Americans who became less than themselves, or rose to be greater than themselves by virtue of the fact that the challenge he represented was inescapable. He is perhaps the only black man in the world whose relationship to white men is more terrible, more subtle, and more meaningful than the relationship of bitter possessed to uncertain possessors…
“One of the things that distinguishes Americans from other people is that no other people has ever been so deeply involved in the lives of black men, and vice versa. This fact faced, with all its implications, it can be seen that the history of the American Negro problem is not merely shameful, it is also something of an achievement. For even when the worst has been said, it must also be added that the perpetual challenge posed by this problem was always, somehow, perpetually met. It is precisely this black-white experience which may prove of indispensable value to us in the world we face today. This world is white no longer, and it will never be white again.”
October 23rd, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Remember, if a “progressive” calls you a “racist”, he’s admitting that he’s lost the argument.
And if they say that you’re “on the wrong side of history”, remind them that Hitler voters likely said the same thing to Jews.
Thread over.
October 24th, 2009 at 12:36 am
Remember, if a “progressive” calls you a “racist”, he’s admitting that he’s lost the argument.
No, he’s telling you that you’re a racist.
And if they say that you’re “on the wrong side of history”, remind them that Hitler voters likely said the same thing to Jews.
Uh…did they? Communists also saw Nazis as on the wrong side of history. Someitmes people make an accusation and they are wrong. Sometimes, like when we point out that you racists are a dwindling, irrelevant minority on the wrong side of history, they’re right.
Thread over.
Fuck you.
October 25th, 2009 at 8:54 am
[...] 20, 2009 · Leave a Comment yglesias: There’s often a kind of conventional idea on the left that the United States is an unusually [...]
October 26th, 2009 at 11:29 am
I believe you would find the political mystery, Purple Poole very interesting. It explores the issue of race in America and in politics. http://www.purplepoole.com
Also visit Barnes and Noble for reviews.