Revisiting The “You Lie” Lie
To revisit last night’s action, the President said this:
THE PRESIDENT: There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms — the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.
REP JOE WILSON: You lie! (Boos.)
THE PRESIDENT: It’s not true. And one more misunderstanding I want to clear up — under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscience laws will remain in place. (Applause.)
Brendan Nyhan bends over backwards to construct an interpretation of the situation such that Rep Wilson is merely being highly misleading rather than telling an outright falsehood:
Obama is clearly referring to the false claim that health care reform would provide free health insurance to illegal immigrants. Many people may interpret Wilson’s outburst as a defense of this claim (it’s impossible to know what he was thinking). However, as Rob correctly points out, Obama’s reforms would apply to everyone — including illegal immigrants — who purchases coverage through health insurance exchanges, including from a proposed government insurance program known as the public option. If you define the public option as insuring someone and describe it as a reform, then Obama’s statement could be seen as misleading and Wilson’s point could be seen as more supportable.
(wikimedia)
In other words, though the bills would prevent undocumented immigrants from receiving any taxpayer assistance in purchasing health insurance, the proposals on the table don’t do anything special to prevent an undocumented immigrant from buying health insurance with his own money. To characterize this as “insur[ing] illegal immigrants” strikes me as about on a par with claiming that Obama’s health care plans give ibuprofen to illegal immigrants. After all, nothing in the bill stops illegal immigrants from buying ibuprofen in a store! And the very same FDA regulations that assure citizens and legal residents and tourists of the safety of ibuprofen will also benefit illegal immigrants.
92 Responses to “Revisiting The “You Lie” Lie”
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September 10th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Why Ibuprofen? It also doesn’t do anything to prevent them from buying guns at gun shows. Obama’s health plan gives guns to illegal immigrants!!!
September 10th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
50 bucks says Wilson has illegal immigrants doing his landscaping.
September 10th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Also, nothing in the proposal stops Brendan Nyhan from hiring illegal immigrants to remove the giant stick from his rectum.
September 10th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
MY finally hits with an analogy. That bus shit was getting stupid.
September 10th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Many people may interpret Wilson’s outburst as a defense of this claim (it’s impossible to know what he was thinking).
Of course one could ask Wilson . . . and come to think of it, I would encourage Wilson to go out and try to explain and defend his actions to as many people as possible.
September 10th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
I don’t understand why the News Media is not doing more to confront Joe Wilson on this. How can a Representative publicly called the PResident a liar on the floor of a joint Congress and NOT be asked to explain himself? To either provide facts to support his accusation or to be dammed for being a liar himself?
Including being challenged by reporters with the text of the bill if he tries to bullshit the public.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Just when you think that Brendan Nyhan can’t descend any further into “both sides are equally wrong” self-parody, he does.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
I would encourage Wilson to go out and try to explain
Here’s the video
September 10th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Nobody will confront the *rwcm Wilson about his low-class boorishness, but now you’ll see him on Hannity, Beck, O’Reilly, Dobbs, ad nauseum.
*redneck whitebread chickenshit motherfucker
September 10th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Fact is president Obama IS a liar…
He lied pathologically on the campaign trail (I need not recite the long list of lies) and he continues lying pathologically in the oval office, meanwhile the beat (and the wars) go on. Mix in a few weasel words such as:
“those who do NOT have insurance will be able (forced by law actually) to buy a Public option” (implying the rest of us will be forced by law to patronize corrupt disgusting for profit insurance crime syndicates) (THIS IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF FASCISM FOLKS)…
and the bottomline is REP JOE WILSON is 100% accurate! Hell I was thinking the same thing when he blurted it out!
I HATE FAUX DEMOCRATS… I HATE FAUX AMERICANS LIKE OBAMA THE CORPORATIST. SCREW THE DUMBOCRATS AND THEIR FEIGNED OUTRAGE. I WANT A LEADER I CAN BELIEVE AND RESPECT BUT THAT AIN’T BARRY O.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Oh, this is a fun game.
Clean water in our homes is a bad thing because it attracts illegal immigrants who can drink it! This also makes sewer systems a very, very bad thing! Oh, and fluoridation!
Money for fire departments is actually encouraging illegal immigration because firemen don’t ask for citizenship status before putting out a fire!
Wilson was making stuff up. It’s ridiculous to pretend otherwise.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Is Matt stupid? Or disingenuous? No illegal immigrants will receive subsidies? And we’ll have a rigorous enforcement and verification process in place to make sure they don’t? Oh right, but there’s a line in the bill saying we won’t cover illegals, wink wink. Who do they expect to fool with this crap?
September 10th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Re Ricardo at 10:
You should hope desperately that Obama’s healthcare reform passes, Ricardo.
Because otherwise we are gonna have to have the SPCA spay you before they put you to sleep.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Yeah, James Joyner said a similar thing… but more explicitly stated that not requiring proof of citizenship (where’s the birth certificate!?) for the purchase of unsubsidized health insurance is equivalent to providing it to illegal immigrants.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Ibuprofen? Yes, the analogy works, but you really should have taken it further. Obama would have illegal immigrants supplied with ponies if they are willing to pay for them.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
(THIS IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF FASCISM FOLKS)
I love this combination:
* in parentheses
* all caps
* refers to readers as “folks”
* no comma
It’s like he’s yelling, whispering and mumbling at the same time.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
I have a notarized certificate that Ricardo is a looney. I can’t give you any supporting evidence for this so you’ll just hace to accept it. TO PROVE MY BONA FIDES, I CONCLUDE IN ALL CAPITALS!
September 10th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
“No illegal immigrants will receive subsidies? And we’ll have a rigorous enforcement and verification process in place to make sure they don’t? Oh right, but there’s a line in the bill saying we won’t cover illegals, wink wink.”
That’s not the worst of it. Did you know that illegal immigrants are allowed to commit murder in this country? That’s right: if an illegal immigrant murders you and evades arrest forever, or manages to get acquitted, there’s nothing the law can do about it. We truly are living in a fascist country!
September 10th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Don Williams and Constipatitia%
That’s is….. Attack the messenger not the message. Typical.
Can either of you fawning sycophants point to one campaign promise that President Obama aka. the liar has kept?
I didn’t think so…
September 10th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
I have a notarized certificate that Ricardo is a looney. I can’t give you any supporting evidence for this so you’ll just hace to accept it. TO PROVE MY BONA FIDES, I CONCLUDE IN ALL CAPITALS!
Obama should have yelled back at Wilson “NO, YOU!”
September 10th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
“Can either of you fawning sycophants point to one campaign promise that President Obama aka. the liar has kept?”
Allow me to answer for the fawning sycophants: the Lily Ledbetter Act, the first bill he signed as President. Glad I could help!
September 10th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Can either of you fawning sycophants point to one campaign promise that President Obama aka. the liar has kept?
I believe he got his daughters a dog. And a lovely dog it is.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Brendan Nyhan has made a nice living out of false equivalence since his Spinsanity days. Why should he change if it pays ther rent?
September 10th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Tomenos%
Regarding lily ledbetter… I find this much more pertinent.. Thanks for playing… try again!
Obama breaks promise on ’sunlight before signing’
By Angie Drobnic Holan
Published on Thursday, January 29th, 2009 at 5:29 p.m.
Bookmark this story:
Buzz up!
ShareThis
President Obama signs the Lilly Ledbetter Act — without the five-day comment period.
**********
Barack Obama signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act on Jan. 29, 2009, keeping a longstanding promise to counter a Supreme Court decision that limited workers’ ability to sue for pay discrimination. We moved the Obameter and gave him a Promise Kept.
But we also had to give him his first Promise Broken for the same signing. As part of his agenda to bring more transparency to government, Obama said he would institute “sunlight before signing” — posting laws to the White House Web site for five days of public comment before he signed off on them.
The Ledbetter Act was passed two days ago, yet the request for public comment was posted after he signed the bill. For that, he earns his first Promise Broken.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jan/29/obama-first-broken-promise/
*****
September 10th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Ricardo: It’s a tragedy that you’ll never get to know how funny you are. You’re being deprived of your own beautiful gift.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Sheesh. First, yellow cake and now this. Joe Wilson is one ubiquitous attention hog.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Truly the very definition of fascism.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
1) There is SOMETHING about this whole affair that smells, however. What intel people call “anomalies”.
a) Rahm telling senior GOP leaders that Joe Wilson should apologize and giving them his number. (It is very STRANGE that Rahm would let someone off so easy with a simple apology — usually Wilson would have to lose several family members, his life savings and come crawling across broken glass weeping before Rahm would look up and say “Yes?” )
b) Now, Nancy Pelosi has stomped on any attempt to censure Wilson
c) News Media is NOT crawling over Wilson and asking WHY he thinks Obama is lying
2) I think the card being palmed here is the OTHER clauses in the House bill — which say that one’s eligibility for coverage can’t be questioned on any basis. Like ,oh, proof of citizenship.
Matthew left SOMETHING out of his misleading analogy — that US EMPLOYERS can purchase insurance for illegal workers.
Which will greatly undermine one of the complaints of the anti-illegal faction — the huge budget crunchs that STATES are going through in providing unfunded medical coverage to illegals.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Truly the very definition of fascism.
SPQR
September 10th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Just put in the frickin’ legal residence requirement and shut them up.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Williams, you’re scenario in #28 makes no sense.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Regarding lily ledbetter… I find this much more pertinent.. Thanks for playing… try again!
Yeah, sucks. Though really that was a pretty dumb promise to begin with. If both houses of Congress have already passed something (presumably something he wants passed), what’s the point of having public comments for five days? Under any conceivable scenario would he veto something his party passed because some concerned citizen finds a bad line in the bill? Where the attention needs to be is in the markup and committee process – that’s where the stuff gets put in there in the first place. I chalk that promise up to silly campaign rhetoric.
Of course, since you’re aware of that site, you’d no doubt be aware that it lists 41 specific “kept promises”. So it seems a bit absurd for you to claim nobody can find so many as one.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Here’s the video
Wow, he looks shaken up in that video. I’m guessing the GOP leadership dropped a sack of bricks on him.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
all of you are so( ? } thinking that we the people who are born in this continent do not have any rights remember that this land was not purchased and wasn’t given to any one as a gift it was taken buy the force can you use your conscious wen you talk about this continent people this land is our bak yard with all its riches
September 10th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
all of you are so( ? } thinking that we the people who are born in this continent do not have any rights remember that this land was not purchased and wasn’t given to any one as a gift it was taken buy the force can you use your conscious wen you talk about this continent people this land is our back yard with all its riches
September 10th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
I bestow upon you Victor the gift of periods and commas. They’ve been taken directly from the riches of my backyard.
September 10th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Obama breaks promise on ’sunlight before signing’
… because it was a mere clarification of a law that the Republicans on the Supreme Court were pretending they were too stupid to read?
In other words, it had already passed.
Idiot.
September 10th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Ah, I see that Adam has already neutered the troll.
September 10th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Adam #41%
Yes you win … tis a nice dog indeed. Were dealing here with the issue of extremistan vs. mediocristan. (read Black Swan or watch http://fora.tv/2008/02/04/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb_A_Crazier_Future )
1000 tiny insignificant promises kept do not balance out one or two major promises broken.
President Obama used (to get elected) and now intends to abuse progressives. Most are too stupid or two in love to see the brutal truth. Obama et al all ready sold out the American public on substantive health care reform. In keeping with his actions to date he is governing as a right fine fascism and will force consumer to patronize for profit insurance and taxpayer everywhere to subsidize them. That … is not change I can believe in.
September 10th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
The right wing apparently wants medical care for undocumented workers be limited to emergency rooms and subject to threat of deportation upon use.
Personally, I think if we’re going to start a government program like this to launch a wave of epidemic diseases, we should open a series of clinics or something. The expensive of running it out of the nation’s emergency rooms would ultimately jeopardize support for the program among fiscal moderates.
September 10th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Obama’s health care plan provides Jell-O to illegal immigrants!
September 10th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
1000 tiny insignificant promises kept do not balance out one or two major promises broken.
Then perhaps you should have said that to begin with, instead of what you actually did say:
Can either of you fawning sycophants point to one campaign promise that President Obama aka. the liar has kept?
I didn’t think so…
Right.
Anyway, this appears to be a case of your projecting onto Obama everything you believe. It’s ok, it happens. But don’t forget Obama was the one who pointedly opposed mandates that everyone get insurance in the primaries.
If you were making him out to be this progressive hero that enacted all of the netroots’ goals, that’s your fault, not his. And while your anger over realizing that yes, he is in fact a mainstream Democratic President is touching, it’s also entirely pointless given the current situation. I hear the Green Party is looking for some new members if you feel so strongly that he doesn’t represent any of your interests.
September 10th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
I’m too, am infuriated that this healthcare bill is not an immigration bill.
I mean, they didn’t even send it through the homeland security committee!
[/snark]
September 10th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
The only way that Obama’s
“The reforms — the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.”
can possibly be true is if he has a regime for 100%
exclusion of illegal’s from our health care system.
He has no such regime.
Indeed the DemoFrauds have carefully insured that illegals can’t be excluded from our health care system based on their
legal status by making such inquiries off limits.
We can leave it to others to argue the merits of that question but it takes nothing away from the fact that Obama lied.
Then again lying is the chief duty of our Presidents.
September 10th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
And it’s worse than we thought. I just read the bill and here’s the beginning of my list of others who are also going to be allowed to use their money to buy health insurance:
Criminals
Nazis
Russian Spies
Terrorists
Swamp Monsters
Bigfeet
Sarah Palin
Robots
Willie Horton
Drug Dealers
Sad Clowns
That lady from “Weeds”
Rappers
Cave Men
September 10th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Adam 42%
Thanks for making my point:
Obama was the one who pointedly opposed mandates that everyone get insurance in the primaries.
That was another confirmed campaign lie as last night he signaled strong support for mandates. Fact is I (stupidly) supported Obama in the primary while preferring Kucinich but watched in disgust as he “tacked right” upon “winning” the nomination. “Tacking right” is politcalese for re-calibrating one’s lies to target the next audience of suckers…
I stopped supporting the liar in chief when he flipped on FISA and now yes I admit…. I CANNOT STAND THAT LYING BASTARD BARRY O. Hate may be only slightly too strong a word. I hope he’s a one termer because the country will be more fascist than Mussolini’s Italy or Franco’s spain by the time the liar in chief is done with the next three.
What makes me ANGRY is that he lied in the PRIMARY! What makes me angry is that so many of you provide him apologist cover just like the Repugs did for BUSH. Same caca different day, the beat (and the wars) go on.
September 10th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
I hope that made you feel better, ricardo. Seriously, get back on the anti-psychotics.
September 10th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Actually, that’s an insult to the mentally ill. You are just being a self-righteous, chest-beating, emoting, purity troll douchebag.
September 10th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
I have solid information that the Lowell DPW paves roads for illegal immigrants.
Who do you think I should call?
September 10th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Fact is I (stupidly) supported Obama in the primary while preferring Kucinich but watched in disgust as he “tacked right” upon “winning” the nomination. “Tacking right” is politcalese for re-calibrating one’s lies to target the next audience of suckers…
You must be very, very new to politics if you didn’t expect Obama, like virtually every other primary winner ever, to move to the center somewhat for the general election. What “tacking right” means is that the reality of our political system is that elections are decided by the 20% or so of moderate, independent voters, and they often go for the person they feel is closest to their views. It does no good for someone like Kucinich or Paul to win a primary if they can only get 45% in the general. Believe me, I wish it were.
I hope he’s a one termer because the country will be more fascist than Mussolini’s Italy or Franco’s spain by the time the liar in chief is done with the next three.
This, on the other hand, is about a nonsensical a sentence as I’ve heard in some time. Do you even know what fascism means? Could you, for the class, provide a few examples of how even the worst-case Obama scenario, in which he turns out to be another corporatist DLC triangulator, has anything even remotely in common with fascist dictatorships of the 1930s?
I mean, yeah, it sucks that he voted for cloture on FISA after the amendments he voted for that would have made it better failed. But I’m not sure you worked out the implications of your “I hope he’s a one-termer” statement. That would, of course, mean that he loses to a Republican. Someone who in all likelihood is far worse on virtually every issue you’re concerned about, and certainly no better on any of them. You might want to take some pills and calm down so you can make a coherent point.
September 10th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
RICARDO IS RIGHT!!! BARRY O HAS NOT KEPTM MORE THAN ONES OF HIS PROMISES (AT LEAST NOT ONES OF THE 10000TH MOST IMPORTANT PROMISES. OBAMA IS FASCIST!!!! HE GIVES THOUSANTH OF NEW CUSTOMERS TO ILLEGAL RACKETEERING ENTERPRISE (IE; BLUE CROSS;BLUE SHIELD) CITIZENS ARE FORCED TO GIVE MONEY TO CORPORATE INTERESTS. THAT IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF FASCISM; USING STATE POWER TO ENRICH CORPORATIONS.
September 10th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
I don’t. All of the right people are rending their garments today.
I wonder if my health plan covers treatments for excessive schadenfreude?
September 10th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
He certainly does: a health care insurance mandate.
Now, you might think the fact that there has never been a single fascist country in history that has had a health care insurance mandate poses a problem for this definition.
(YOU WOULD BE WRONG)
September 10th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
SARA PALIN WAS RIGHT ABOUT DEATH PENALS!!! INSTEAD OF SINGLE PAYER INSURANCE THAT WOULD SAVE THE LIVES OF 22,000 AMERICANS A YEAR WHO ARE MURDERED BY THE CURRENT SYSTEM; OBAMA WILL FORCE PEOPLE TO GIVE MONEY TO FASCIST CORPORATIONS WHO WILL KEEP MURDERING!!! LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF ‘NATIONAL SOCIALISM.’ THIS IS IT RIGHT HERE!
September 10th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Scott… I appreciate the you TRIED to carry on a civil conversation like your worthless lying scumbag hero so desperately wants to see happen but its now apparent even you (let alone bona-fide morons like ed) cannot control yourself. You’ve resorted to ad hominem the logical fallacy preferred by mental midgets everywhere. I know more about fascism than anyone here cares to read but I will not engage in your mindless pissing match.
The only reason we have Obama instead of Hillary (or someone actually decent for that matter) is because New Hampshire used diebold machines. That is the sad fact. Middle of the roader’s my butt.. you’re an idiot if you think politics these days is anything other than finely orchestrated theater . THE ONLY way change will come to America is when Americans take to the streets and demand it. I won’t hold my breath but eventually the tipping point will be reached.
September 10th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
“The only reason we have Obama instead of Hillary (or someone actually decent for that matter) is because New Hampshire used diebold machines.”
Hillary won New Hampshire, so maybe you can talk me through the chain of events here?
September 10th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Hillary won the POPULAR VOTE in New Hampshire, but OBAMA GOT MORE DELEGATES!
September 10th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
The only reason we have Obama instead of Hillary (or someone actually decent for that matter) is because New Hampshire used diebold machines. That is the sad fact.
Not sure if you’re aware, but not only did Obama lose NH, but he performed significantly worse there than virtually every poll predicted (10+ points worse in some places). Considering that a win in NH would have pretty much wrapped up the nomination, claiming that the machines were rigged but not enough to make him win seems rather, well, insane.
Also, one of the reasons you were so upset with Obama lying is because he…adopted Hillary’s position on health care. I’m not sure what you think she would be doing differently, especially considering she was in charge of the last failed effort.
I know more about fascism than anyone here cares to read but I will not engage in your mindless pissing match.
In other words, you’re going to offer no defense whatsoever to your completely insane claim that we’ll be “more fascist than Mussolini’s Italy or Franco’s spain by the time the liar in chief is done”. Or even offer a single example of how this might possibly be true. Yes, that’s truly showing us mental midgets how to argue one’s point properly.
September 10th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
@Adam 36: My hat is off to you, friend. That is one of the funniest things I’ve read.
September 10th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Scott… I appreciate the you TRIED to carry on a civil conversation . . . but its now apparent even you (let alone bona-fide morons like ed) cannot control yourself. You’ve resorted to ad hominem the logical fallacy preferred by mental midgets everywhere.
This description fits someone on this thread very well, but it’s not Scott (whoever that is).
I know more about fascism than anyone here cares to read but I will not engage in your mindless pissing match.
I do believe ricardo is doing some kind of performance art. Come on. No one would ever really say something like this.
September 10th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Fact is I (stupidly) supported Obama in the primary while preferring Kucinich but watched in disgust as he “tacked right” upon “winning” the nomination.
Oh no! If only you’d supported Kucinich as your heart told you then Kucinich might be President today!
September 10th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
SARA PALIN WAS RIGHT ABOUT DEATH PENALS!!!
WAKE UP AMERICA!!!
September 10th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
“I appreciate the you TRIED to carry on a civil conversation like your worthless lying scumbag hero so desperately wants to see happen but its now apparent even you (let alone bona-fide morons like ed) cannot control yourself. You’ve resorted to ad hominem”
Sublime.
September 10th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Folks, let me intercede here by pointing out that not everyone on the right believes that Obama is a.) Fascist b.) that his health care plan leads to Fascism. One need only study the political philosophy of Fascism to realize that.
That being said, this selective deletion of the fact that HR 3200 doesn’t contain a mechanism by which the government attempts to ensure that illegals don’t illegally obtain government funded benefits is laughable.
When you don’t have a mechanism for enforcement, just how is it that you would know that someone shouldn’t be obtaining a benefit? Please, don’t insult our intelligence on this issue, we know that this is a wonderful means to have your cake and eat it, while pretending all along that you believe in the rule of law.
Why is it that I constantly hear complaints about how toothless agencies like the SEC are? Oh, right, they don’t have the enforcement mechanisms to ensure that laws aren’t being broken. I suppose that given your position on this issue, we should simply write laws that regulate the financial industry, but have no regulators. I mean, people just blindly obey the law, don’t they?
September 10th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Ed, the problem you complain about is the very thing being mocked in this thread. Read the list in 45, read Matt’s post on how illegal aliens are using public transportation, read something, anything, that will remind you that it isn’t the job of every bus driver, policeman, fireman, doctor, nurse, and coroner to ensure that the person they are helping has their papers in order.
Unfortunately, as one walks down the street there are no men with sub-machine guns asking one and all for their papers. This would solve the problem. At great expense to our national treasury, our civil liberties, and our fundamental sense of decency.
People have more important things to do than to spend every moment worrying that their customer is an illegal alien. You should too.
September 10th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Perhaps someday everyone will possess an unforgeable proof of citizenship. But until that day (which conservatives of the 1950’s warned us that the Soviets had waiting for us should they defeat us in the Cold War) it’s actually somewhat difficult for a non-negligible subset of the US-born to provide proof of citizenship — a situation especially common among those in poverty (e.g. certain twelfth-generation citizens of Appalachia).
September 10th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
When conservatives advocate for tax cuts, and those tax cuts put more money in the pockets of rich people, and those rich people use that money to hire domestic workers who are illegal aliens, does it mean that the government is therefore responsible for giving money to illegal aliens, and hence the tax-cut policy should be rescinded?
September 10th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Also, I’m pretty sure undocumented immigrants benefit from anti-terrorist efforts, so I presume Republicans believe we should dispense with those too.
September 10th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Illegal immigrants use our roads, our schools, enjoy many of the benefits of living in the US. They also pay employment taxes which they will never benefit from. They pay income taxes and never get to take advantage of deductions. They don’t get any of the benefits of most taxpayers in the same income category. Most of them do work that most Americans don’t want to do.
September 10th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Ed Smithe:
You realize that illegal immigrants already can’t get Medicaid: needing to show proof of citizenship… so what new enforcement mechanisms do you need? Medicaid is the only government subsidized part of the bill.
September 10th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
In other words, though the bills would prevent undocumented immigrants from receiving any taxpayer assistance in purchasing health insurance, the proposals on the table don’t do anything special to prevent an undocumented immigrant from buying health insurance with his own money.
============================================================
Sorry but #64 is right. The bills don’t “prevent undocumented immigrants from receiving any taxpayer assistance in purchasing health insurance” other than to say they’re not supposed to.
Two “enforcement” amendments to HR 3200 the Heller Amendment
http://www.lvrj.com/blogs/politics/Special_interest_group_taking_interest_in_Hellers_amendment.html
and the Deal Amendment
http://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/july-30-2009/house-committee-votes-against-preventing-health-care-benefits-illegal-aliens.html
have been defeated in Committee.
Rep. Nathan Deal (R-Ga.) offered an amendment to the HouseEnergy and Commerce Committee this morning that would explicitly prohibit illegal aliens from receiving health care benefits under the health care reform bill (H.R. 3200). The amendment was narrowly defeated 28-to-29 after two Blue Dog Democrats on the committee voted against the amendment.
Under the health care bill, states would be required to automatically enroll non-traditional Medicaid individuals to the proposed government-run option, but the bill does not provide any language that would require the states to verify citizenship status before the enrollment. Rep. Deal’s amendment would require them to verify an individual’s citizenship status before automatically enrolling them.
=============================================================
So basically, an analogy would be that HR 3200 says there is a 50 mph speed limit, but don’t worry motorists, we’re not hiring any traffic cops
September 10th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
You realize that illegal immigrants already can’t get Medicaid: needing to show proof of citizenship… so what new enforcement mechanisms do you need? Medicaid is the only government subsidized part of the bill.
========================================================
Except that they do
http://dhs.wisconsin.gov/Medicaid/Publications/p-10164.pdf
You or your family may be able to get Wisconsin
Medicaid even if you are not a U.S. citizen or legal resident.
You do not need a sponsor. If you meet all program
rules, you may be able to get Medicaid:
• For your children who were born in the U.S.,
• If you are a pregnant woman, or
• If you have a medical emergency.
Medicaid for your children who were born in the U.S.
If you have a child(ren) who was born in the U.S. s/he
may be able to get Medicaid, even if you cannot.
Your family will need to apply and meet all the Medicaid
rules. Only the child(ren) you are applying for need(s) or
will need to give a Social Security Number.
Emergency
September 10th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Campesino:
Ah I see… I wasn’t expecting anyone to come out against children, pregnant women, and medical emergencies.
Good luck with that.
September 10th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Campesino,
Please read all of comments 65 through 69.
September 10th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Campesino is a traditionalist. If you aren’t on his approved list you deserve to die. He would give up any liberty, pay any price, allow any inconvenience – just to ensure that some other poor bastard has it worse than he does.
September 10th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Not as Stupid as Will Allen Says:,
Well, many thanks for the honesty. Now let’s delve into that a bit more. So illegal immigrants get a free ride…and you guys are just happy as clams about that.
Well, some of us believe in the rule of law, and believe that our tax dollars ought to go to individuals that are citizens of this country. If one needs to ensure the citizenship of every man, woman, and child…so be it. You guys go nuts at the loopholes that the NRA pushes at gun shows to sell guns to everyone and their brother regardless of whether or not they got ticketed for reckless driving, or actually killed a person…AS WELL YOU SHOULD. Do I come up with some stupid argument that, well, ‘you can’t expect to do background checks on every single person in the US that wants to buy a gun??!!!’
Either you’re for the rule of law, or you aren’t. And you’re argument demonstrates to me that you don’t take it very seriously. Perhaps that’s why other people don’t take it very seriously, because there’s a culture of some laws applying and others not applying.
That’s the problem with our country right now, and it’s what disgusts me the most. The hypocrisy of both the “right” and the left on these types of issues.
So mock it all you want. I want to ensure that the people that are ENTITLED UNDER LAW to these benefits and coverage receive it…and NOT ANOTHER DIME goes to anyone else that doesn’t. I’d imagine that your enforcement mechanisms are far stronger when it comes to Americans that can “afford” health care because they’re “rich.” What a fucking joke.
So this is what decline feels like.
September 10th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Ed Smithe, it is clear you were not in any way paying attention to anything that was said. Illegal aliens are restricted in the legislation from taking advantage of proposed federal benefits such as the public option. You are still going to have to lie awake at night knowing that they’re using roads and benefiting from federal health and safety regulations, however, and I understand that is going to bother you.
Campesino, who has still not learned to use HTML when quoting others, confuses medicaid with HR 3200, but his cut-and-paste wankery fulfills his masturbatory needs.
September 10th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Ed, don’t be a fucking moron. Your very first paragraph is a strawman. There is a difference between accepting that the cure is worse than the disease and being “happy as clams.” Do I want my tax dollars to support those who are breaking the law? No, but if it comes down to giving money to help a pregnant woman – without regard to her legal status – and paying doctors to be deputy immigration officers, I’m going to come down on the side of humanity.
I am more concerned about the scofflaws who fuck the nation. You know, the dudes who use clever accounting tricks to pretend that they have no income and those who cheat the system out of funds it should get. Oddly, the “Rule of Law” types seem to be okay with tax fraud. At least I don’t see them getting up on their hobbyhorse about it in unrelated threads (below we will talk more about the distinction between heathcare and immigration).
See, I am a supporter of the Rule of Law. I was a supporter of it when the Republicans broke the law to arm terrorists. I was a supporter of it when the Republicans abused it to attempt to remove a President over his sex life. I was a supporter of it when the Supreme Court arrogated to itself the power to re-write Florida State Election Statutes. I was a supporter when Bush violated international law to commit acts of unprovoked aggression.
If you were as incensed by these criminal acts as I have been I’m surprised to find you a Republican. Be that as it may, the punishment for illegal immigration should not be death. It shouldn’t even be that you are forbidden to ride buses, drive on federally paved roads, or be treated for the cancer you got from spending too much time in the fields while they were using pesticides.
Where you go wrong, Mr. Ed Smithe, is in drawing an absolute line in the sand at healthcare for illegal immigrants. The right approach is to fund better prevention. You want to throw sand in the system and create friction for everyone as an indirect solution to a totally unrelated problem. That’s not rational.
September 10th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
hum Says:
September 10th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Campesino,
Please read all of comments 65 through 69.
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Please use common sense if you have any. Passing a law that says it’s illegal to do something and setting up no measures to enforce it, means you’re either foolish or a liar.
September 10th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
Real life observation tells us that, more often than not, those who work the hardest achieve the most.
September 11th, 2009 at 12:00 am
Not as Stupid as Will Allen Says:
September 10th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Campesino is a traditionalist. If you aren’t on his approved list you deserve to die. He would give up any liberty, pay any price, allow any inconvenience – just to ensure that some other poor bastard has it worse than he does.
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I really have no approved list, other than my fellow citizens who have committed themselves to being Americans with me. Obviously, Stupid, you’re not a traditionalist, and believe we should share all we have with our fellow inhabitants of the planet.
I’ll just show up at your house tomorrow with a moving van and load up all your stuff to take away for my use. Obviously if you object you are a selfish pig trying to make sure someone’s got it worse than you
September 11th, 2009 at 12:25 am
Tyro Says:
September 10th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Ed Smithe, it is clear you were not in any way paying attention to anything that was said. Illegal aliens are restricted in the legislation from taking advantage of proposed federal benefits such as the public option. You are still going to have to lie awake at night knowing that they’re using roads and benefiting from federal health and safety regulations, however, and I understand that is going to bother you.
Campesino, who has still not learned to use HTML when quoting others, confuses medicaid with HR 3200, but his cut-and-paste wankery fulfills his masturbatory needs.
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tyro = def: someone new to a field or activity, a person who lacks technical training, a novice learning the rudiments of some subject,an awkward and inexperienced youth, someone who is being trained
Actually, Tyro is a well-chosen pseudonym for you, all things considered.
And a typical “tyro” comment – fact-free, poorly-written, ad-hominem, and an aggressive projection of sexual inadequacy.
September 11th, 2009 at 12:38 am
Wow, Campesino, you really knocked that strawman right out of the park. One wonders how you get through life being so stupid as to be unable to tell the difference between ensuring that those in emergency situations are provided care and stealing all of someone’s possessions.
But good work building a new straw man to tear down – if I think that the law, as currently written and implemented, which provides care for those who are in real need, should be obeyed means that I am a communist.
You know why you are the subject of personal attacks? Because there’s nothing in your arguments. They are completely without substance and reflect only your inability to understand the real world. Refuting them is like refuting sand. When you become more than a dining room table, then we can have an actual discussion.
September 11th, 2009 at 12:44 am
See, I am a supporter of the Rule of Law. I was a supporter of it when the Republicans broke the law to arm terrorists. I was a supporter of it when the Republicans abused it to attempt to remove a President over his sex life. I was a supporter of it when the Supreme Court arrogated to itself the power to re-write Florida State Election Statutes. I was a supporter when Bush violated international law to commit acts of unprovoked aggression.
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So obviously you are all down with Tim Geithner and Charlie Rangel going to jail ASAP for tax fraud!!!!!
September 11th, 2009 at 12:53 am
Not as Stupid as Will Allen Says:
September 11th, 2009 at 12:38 am
Wow, Campesino, you really knocked that strawman right out of the park. One wonders how you get through life being so stupid as to be unable to tell the difference between ensuring that those in emergency situations are provided care and stealing all of someone’s possessions.
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No, the point is, you can’t tell the difference between making reasonable efforts to help people and being a sucker.
With your morally superior attitude, you must live in a box under an underpass and give all your money away to taxes and charities. Right??
If not, I don’t want to hear any more from you.
September 11th, 2009 at 1:51 am
Psst. I heard that illegal immigrants sometimes cross the street at crosswalks that were painted with our tax dollars! How dare they! No crosswalks for anyone until we can come up with a tamper-proof card-swipe system that allows only legal residents to use such valuable public resources.
Also, they’ve been known to take advantage of government-prepared street signs. Until that can be stopped, all streets should be unmarked, and we should all just kind of wander around, because we’ll probably find those places anyway, like, eventually.
September 11th, 2009 at 8:04 am
So, the trolls want to be required to prove their citizenship before receiving emergency care?
Wait, they just want Hispanic citizens to be required to prove their citizenship before receiving emergency care.
This provision has already been tested with Medicare; very few non-citizens were prevented from receiving care, while a whole lot of poor old black people with no passports lost their Medicare benefits. And died.
September 11th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Prolific blog commenter who enjoys mindless cut-and-paste criticizes someone else for being an self-proclaimed amateur. I’m shocked. Campesino, it’s pretty clear that you’re too stupid to understand the difference between Medicaid and HR 3200. Either that or you have a mindless compulsion to cut and paste because you’re desperate to feel like you have something to say. I’ve seen that happen before. Usually we tell that child, “be quiet. The adults are talking.”
Please use common sense if you have any. Passing a law that says it’s illegal to do something and setting up no measures to enforce it, means you’re either foolish or a liar.
Oooo… Campesino can mindlessly parrot right-wing talking points… I’m sooooo impressed. You’re just another easily led right-wing paranoiac who needs a boogeyman to keep your hate focused on someone. Look at people like Ed Smithe who has no idea what he’s talking about. When “illegal immigrants” was the chosen target, you obeyed. When Democrats, because we are reasonable people who give you morons the benefit of the doubt said, “yes, they won’t be included,” you weren’t willing to give up your hate and rage and then moved on the blind dishonesty. If it weren’t illegal immigrants, you’d have been told to hate someone else and use that as an excuse to oppose public health initiatives because it might benefit that group. It’s an endless, mindless cycle for you people.
September 11th, 2009 at 10:33 am
[...] Really? Matthew Yglesias doesn’t think so: [...]
September 11th, 2009 at 11:43 am
One of the arguments the Republicans used to sink health care reform in 1993 was the proposal that Americans be issued a card which they would use in place of their health insurance card to show when they accessed medical services.
“National ID Card!” the wingnuts cried! UnAmerican! The mark of the beast!
These hypocrites aren’t arguing in good faith, and there aren’t enough of them to matter, anyway. Democrats should roll right over them.
September 11th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
[...] expense via a loophole in the health care bill currently in the House – a contention given concise and now-infamous voice by one Representative Joe Wilson during Obama’s speech on Wednesday – seems to have [...]
September 12th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Tyro Says:
September 11th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Prolific blog commenter who enjoys mindless cut-and-paste criticizes someone else for being an self-proclaimed amateur
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Nice to hear you admit it Tyro=clueless rookie