Right-Wing Rediscovering Civil Liberties Concerns
Last might, Josh Marshall wrote:
Reading through our email — or, okay, in this case, it’s more the hate mail — it’s clear that a growing number of base conservatives believe that the Obama White House is collecting their anti-health care reform emails and compiling them in a master White House database to surveil these people, keep tabs on them and so forth.
One: That’s dumb.
Two: It used to be that in this country we actually had formal legal constraints that would make it impossible for a president to behave in this manner. Then came George W. Bush, illegal surveillance, massive conservative mobilization in favor of the principle that illegal surveillance must go unpunished, eventual “centrist” accommodation to the view that illegal surveillance must go unpunished, and then the administration of Barack Obama. And now the right-wing is spreading scare stories about illegitimate surveillance.
It’s like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife, but I would have been a lot happier if we’d just stuck with the rule of law in the first place.
46 Responses to “Right-Wing Rediscovering Civil Liberties Concerns”
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
I am unfamiliar with this strange, new learning: 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife?
August 20th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
It’s like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife, but I would have been a lot happier if we’d just stuck with the rule of law in the first place.
It’s…claiming to be “ironic,” but it’s revealing a complete misunderstanding of what “irony” actually means? Sometimes Matt’s allusions run a little too deep for my understanding.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
It’s like Matthew was saying earlier.
At first you argue “It’s absurd to think the government would put all those right wing morons to sleep” …
and then you catch yourself saying “not that that would be all that bad of an idea.”
August 20th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Yup, which is why the Obama Administration keeps issuing signing statements asserting all those horrible executive privileges within all the legislation the President signs. And also why he reneged on the “I’ll put all legislation I am planning to sign, online” promise. He really shows off his dedication to “formal legal constraints” by appointing something like 10 unelected czars to head various administrative fiefs, and counting.
Liberalism is slowly killing off your reasoning skills, you know. You should take a vacation in a sunnier clime.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
I am unfamiliar with this strange, new learning: 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife?
Ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife… with which to kill your spouse for sleeping with the young soup chef who works at the Au Bon Pain.
http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1711139
August 20th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
And then came Barack Obama to condone, confirm, legitimize and expand the assault on civil liberties begun by Bush.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
It’s, like, so ironic that you wouldn’t understand what he means by that…
August 20th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
It’s like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife, but I would have been a lot happier if we’d just stuck with the rule of law in the first place.
This is analogy is completely wrongheaded. It is, in fact, like the good advice that you just didn’t take.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Yeah, atrios called this one way back.
http://www.eschatonblog.com/2008_06_15_archive.html#1234067466832961618
August 20th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
I would laugh but I know people who truly and deeply believe this. I remind them that Bush made this possible with his post-911 executive power grab. They stare in dumb silence and then rant on about Obama.
Seriously, is the tin foil hat crowd a growing majority of the right or simply a small but very vocal group?
August 20th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Sen. Cornyn put this out a little while ago. I have no idea about the accuracy of it’s claims.
“Dear President Obama,
I write to express my concern about a new White House program to monitor
American citizens’ speech opposing your health care policies, and to seek your
assurances that this program is being carried out in a manner consistent with the
First Amendment and America’s tradition of free speech and public discourse.
Yesterday, in an official White House release entitled “Facts are Stubborn
Things,” the White House Director of New Media, Macon Phillips, asserted that
there was “a lot of disinformation out there,” and encouraged citizens to report
“fishy” speech opposing your health care policies to the White House. Phillips
specifically targeted private, unpublished, even casual speech, writing that
“rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual
conversation.” Phillips wrote “If you get an email or see something on the web
about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.”
I am not aware of any precedent for a President asking American citizens to
report their fellow citizens to the White House for pure political speech that is
deemed “fishy” or otherwise inimical to the White House’s political interests.
By requesting that citizens send “fishy” emails to the White House, it is inevitable
that the names, email addresses, IP addresses, and private speech of U.S.
citizens will be reported to the White House. You should not be surprised that
these actions taken by your White House staff raise the specter of a data
collection program. As Congress debates health care reform and other critical
policy matters, citizen engagement must not be chilled by fear of government
monitoring the exercise of free speech rights.
I can only imagine the level of justifiable outrage had your predecessor asked
Americans to forward emails critical of his policies to the White House. I suspect
that you would have been leading the charge in condemning such a program-and
I would have been at your side denouncing such heavy-handed government
action.
So I urge you to cease this program immediately. At the very least, I request that
you detail to Congress and the public the protocols that your White House is
following to purge the names, email addresses, IP addresses, and identities of
citizens who are reported to have engaged in “fishy” speech. And I respectfully
request an answer to the following:
* How do you intend to use the names, email addresses, IP addresses, and
identities of citizens who are reported to have engaged in “fishy” speech?
* How do you intend to notify citizens who have been reported for “fishy”
speech?
* What action do you intend to take against citizens who have been reported
for engaging in “fishy” speech?
* Do your own past statements qualify as “disinformation”? For example, is it
“disinformation” to note that in 2003 you said:”I happen to be a proponent of a
single-payer universal health care plan”?
I look forward to your prompt response.
Sincerely,
JOHN CORNYN
United States Senator”
August 20th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
James Gary, thanks for that link. That’s hilarous.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
A good example of irony is writing an entire song about irony in which you never once use the word “ironic” correctly. “Rain on your wedding day,” contrariwise, is probably just a pain in the ass.
Unless you lived in Seattle and were really worried about it raining on your wedding day, so you had a destination wedding in Taos, New Mexico. And Taos got two inches on that day, but Seattle was dry as a bone.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Yup, I remember when conservatives were all for the Patriot Act and warrantless wiretapping. I tried to explain that we already had a legal procedure for issuing warrants based on classified information, so there was no need for this. But they did not care because conservatives are at heart authoritarians. There was only one Senator to vote against the Patriot act one and two. What does that tell you?
These conservatives aren’t against Obama’s use of power (not that he is actually using it of course), they are merely against Obama. If this were President McCain, they would be demanding that the President make a list and round up dissidents.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
A good example of irony is writing an entire song about irony in which you never once use the word “ironic” correctly.
So, really, the song title is just meta.
Yes, Matthew rightly points out the equivalence between the Bushies surveilling people who called terrorists in foreign countries, and the Obamites surveilling ordinary Americans who dissent from Obamacare. That’s exactly the same thing.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
That’s in the liner notes.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
It’s easy to laugh at Republicans. But many Obama supporters seem to have forgotten their concerns about civil liberties since their idol took office.
Bagram and Guantanamo are still open, torturers and murderers are still not charged with any crime, the NSA is still spying on anyone it feels like.
But hey, look over there, the GOP!
August 20th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Yeah, I think we’re all upset that Obama hasn’t taken the steps he should have to curb executive power.
At the same time, it’s utterly hilarious that the same people who for eight years called us traitors when we didn’t fully support every one of Bush’s actions and said we wanted to let the terrorists win when we complained about torture and wiretapping and executive power are now throwing a hissy fit when said power might be used against them.
If I were an optimist, I’d say they would learn from this experience and start opposing unchecked executive power no matter which party is in the White House. But I know better. They’ll be right back to calling us terrorist appeasers if they ever get there again.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
“Us versus them,
Us versus them:
High ho the dairy-o
Uuuuuus versus themmmmmm.”
Principles have nothing to do with it. These folks perceive everything they do as actions in a war on the DFH. And they think the Dirty F’ing Hippies are at war with them, too. Period. That’s all this is: war mindset.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Oh, and Alanis’s “Ironic” is in fact meta since none of her examples are actually ironic. I would have thought everyone figured that out by now. Though who knows if she had that intention or not.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
God dammit Yglesias, I was with you all the way on this post and then you had to go quote Alanis Morisette of all people. I had lived for several years very happily without thinking of that song once, and now I’m gonna have that stupid song in my head for two or three days at least. Thanks a lot. I promise you, if you ever, ever quote Counting Crows or Stone Temple Pilots, there’s not a jury in the world that wouldn’t award me zillions of dollars in punitive damages for pain and suffering.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
But many Obama supporters seem to have forgotten their concerns about civil liberties since their idol took office.
Bagram and Guantanamo are still open, torturers and murderers are still not charged with any crime, the NSA is still spying on anyone it feels like.
It’s my understanding that some of that stuff was curbed to save political capital for health care (har har), and others like Guantanamo are slowly being worked on. If after health care there’s not some signs of noticable change, we’re going to start being upset. For me, that would take the form of donating and voting for any 2012 primary challenger that I think will do better in that area, and reluctantly voting for but not donating to Obama in the general in the event he wins. Just because conservatives have black-and-white views on everything doesn’t mean we have to either be outraged or not care at all.
August 20th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Oh, and Alanis’s “Ironic” is in fact meta since none of her examples are actually ironic.
Also “who would have thought, it figures” makes absolutely no sense in its context. What figures? WTF happened that she is responding to?
The whole song is an in-joke of the highest order. Maybe all her singles are.
August 20th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Whether the song “Ironic” is, in-fact, one big clever in-joke is something that listeners must decide for themselves. I’m pretty much inclined to say, “No.” It’s one of those important-sounding words, like “existential,” that kinda smart kids like to throw around without really understanding.
Wikipedia has a whole page on it, for what it’s worth.
August 20th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
many Obama supporters seem to have forgotten their concerns about civil liberties since their idol took office.
“Many” is doing a ton of work here. It would be just as accurate to say that “many” Obama supporters continue to be deeply concerned about civil liberties under his administration. Every liberal blog I read has raised the issue at one time or another. Ditto centrists and their ilk who were “Obama supporters” during the campaign.
Not raising it loudly enough for your taste? “Many” liberals are fighting other battles right now. It’s hard to fight them all simultaneously. “Many” more-liberal-than-thou blog commenters seem not to get this.
August 20th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
It all depends if the spoons are stainless steel or silver.
August 20th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
It was OK when Bush did it. He wasn’t training armed Americorps workers to round us up and put us in FEMA concentration camps.
August 20th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
At the same time, it’s utterly hilarious that the same people who for eight years called us traitors when we didn’t fully support every one of Bush’s actions
Yes, and now it is the Democrats who call the Republicans traitors for failing to fully support every one of Obama’s actions. Oh, the irony…
August 20th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
I like the part where it goes “It’s meeting the man of my dreams
And then meeting his beautiful wife”.
That sucks.
August 20th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Someone else noted this first, but “isn’t it a bummer?” would have scanned just as well.
(Al thinks irony is like steely. Again, his pro bono clients are being ripped off.)
August 20th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
The real irony is that the angry breakup Morrissete song is about the dorky dude from Full House.
August 20th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Yes, and now it is the Democrats who call the Republicans traitors for failing to fully support every one of Obama’s actions.
Because accusing democratic politicians promoting healthcare reform of nazi war crimes is exactly like “failing to fully support every one of Obama’s actions.” And given your record of rigorous intellectual honesty I’m surprised you didn’t link to the nazi/socialist/fascist Josh Marshall criticizing that one random guy for overheated rhetoric (criticism with which I agree, by the way).
August 20th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Actually, in the interest of intelluctual honesty, it was one random Congressman. More than just a guy.
August 20th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Josh Marshall criticizing that one random guy for overheated rhetoric
Not exactly random — he’s a Congressman — but the key word here is “one”. (Also, he was referring to one Republican.)
Al rarely lies outright, but that’s what he’s done here. Or maybe for him singulars and plurals is hard.
August 20th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Oops, you beat me to it, Led.
Sadly, in that one line you showed far more intellectual honesty than Al has ever shown. And yet his recurring theme is liberals’ lack of intellectual honestly. It’s like rain on your wedding day.
August 20th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
I love people who are so anti-torture – really, so much more anti-torture than you, you hypocrite – that whether or not the government is torturing people doesn’t even enter into their thinking. You’d think such enthusiasitc opponents of torture would consider the cessation and abandonment of torture to be worth mentioning. You’d be wrong.
Remember, the number one priority of Protest People is to be Protest People.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Oh, and Alanis’s “Ironic” is in fact meta since none of her examples are actually ironic. I would have thought everyone figured that out by now.
I’ve always contended that the example of the man who was afraid of flying and avoided flying for “his whole damn life,” only to finally take a flight at the behest of his family that ends in a crash, is, in fact, ironic.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
I’m supposed to be afraid because the White House political shop is keeping on top of their opposition’s arguments and talking points?
Seriously?
Good luck with that, Al.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Reading through our email — or, okay, in this case, it’s more the hate mail — it’s clear that a growing number of base conservatives believe that the Obama White House is collecting their anti-health care reform emails and compiling them in a master White House database to surveil these people, keep tabs on them and so forth.
I’m sure that the lists are kept right beside the Arc of the Covenant in that warehouse that was at the end of The Lost Ark.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
That’s stupid. You keep them in there, they’ll get lost; and then what will you do when you need to draw up the list of names for the detention centers/death camps?
August 20th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
How long before the Deathers start to refer to “the Mark of the Beast?”
August 20th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
@joefrom Lowell:
Mark of the Beast is for the Swine Flu vaccine program. Death Panels are for the remant left behind that did not accept GOP Jeebus.
August 20th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Not exactly random — he’s a Congressman — but the key word here is “one”. (Also, he was referring to one Republican.)
Al rarely lies outright, but that’s what he’s done here. Or maybe for him singulars and plurals is hard.
But of course that Congressman isn’t the only Democrat to call healthcare opponents traitors.
So my statement was perfectly accurate, even if it lacked a link to sufficient evidence to back up the claim.
August 20th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
All this quoting Alanis Morrissette “ironically” and Hector still hasn’t condemned you hipsters? I-it’s as though there is no god.
August 21st, 2009 at 2:41 am
Irony: it’s like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife, and then someone stabs you to death.
August 21st, 2009 at 11:09 am
From your latest link, Al:
I’m not accusing Obama’s opponents of treason.