Hamas Embracing Holocaust Denial
The UN Relief and Works Agency, which oversees assistance to Palestinian refugees, was considering the idea of including a unit on the Holocaust in history lessons to Palestinian schoolchildren. It seems like a good idea to me that, among other things, might help the kids better understand the context for their current situation. Hamas leaders, however, are having none of it:
Hamas spiritual leader Younis al-Astal lashed out after hearing that the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, the main U.N. body aiding Palestinian refugees, planned to introduce lessons about the Holocaust to Gaza students. Adding the Holocaust to the curriculum would amount to “marketing a lie and spreading it,” al-Astal wrote in a statement. [...]
Many Palestinians are reluctant to acknowledge Jewish suffering, fearing it might diminish their own. Attitudes toward the Holocaust range from outright denial to challenging its scope.
Israeli officials are using this argument as a pretext for why western governments shouldn’t reconsider their attitudes to dealings with Hamas. Meanwhile, the actual situation in Gaza is incredibly dire. As Brian Katulis, Marc Lynch, and Robert C. Adler wrote for CAP in July:
In the six months since unilateral ceasefires by Israel and Hamas were announced on the eve of President Obama’s inauguration, the 1.5 million Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip have suffered from shortages, including basic medicines and services. In early March, the International Conference in Support of the Palestinian Economy for the Reconstruction of Gaza that was held in Egypt raised a total of $4.4 billion in pledges from the international community for the Palestinian Authority. But stringent import restrictions imposed by Israel and the continued divisions among Palestinian factions have impeded these funds from delivering much benefit to Palestinians.
A recent ICRC report emphasizes that the Israeli blockade has pushed unemployment to over 40 percent, while depriving the population of regular access to running water, to say nothing of proper medical. They warn that tens of thousands of children are going malnourished due to “deficiencies in iron, vitamin A and vitamin D.” The indifference of both the Israeli government and the Hamas leadership toward the practical aspects of this humanitarian crisis is truly appalling.
118 Responses to “Hamas Embracing Holocaust Denial”
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:22 pm
The indifference of both the Israeli government and the Hamas leadership toward the practical aspects of this humanitarian crisis is truly appalling.
And the attitude of Israel’s overzealous defenders boils down to “Hamas is evil, therefore Israel is completely justified in doing whatever they want to the people of the Gaza Strip.”
The fact that Hamas =/= the residents of the West Bank doesn’t seem to bother them in the least.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Abb1 bait is all this is.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Right, to make Yglesias and other Zionists happy the Hamas leadership must convince the population to commit mass-suicide. What a friggin disgrace.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:33 pm
It’s been famously said that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. But with Hamas, they are damn good at proactively ensuring that they never get an opportunity in the first place. Fatah may be hopelessly incompetent, but Hamas is just plain crazy.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Gaza strip. They wanted this shit sandwich.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:37 pm
The Holocaust has become a trump card and a bludgeon.
There’s a quote (that I’m going to mangle) from a learned rabbi about the books of the Bible. They defile unworthy hands, but the Song of Solomon defiles them the most. (Apparently he considered it the holiest of texts.)
Likewise, the Holocaust defiles the hands of the unworthy and to use it as a passport to further suffering is worse.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:45 pm
And by embracing the Holocaust denial meme, Hamas plays right into their hands.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:46 pm
“Likewise, the Holocaust defiles the hands of the unworthy and to use it as a passport to further suffering is worse.”
So telling kids that it happened is “using it as a passport to further suffering”?
August 31st, 2009 at 3:47 pm
I’ve met Palestinians who will tell you that Hitler’s extermination program was all fake, but I think that the number would compare to people here who think the moon landing was a fraud.
What I have heard much more frequently is that the standard Israeli narrative regarding the pairing of the events regarding European Jewry and the zionist project are unfair.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Its been famously said by those who support jewish chauvinism.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:48 pm
“I’ve met Palestinians who will tell you that Hitler’s extermination program was all fake, but I think that the number would compare to people here who think the moon landing was a fraud”
Mostly because the moon landing theorists are out of a sample of 300 million people. Among the Palestinians, Holocaust deniers are a near majority.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:57 pm
I am really sceptical about this. I think on the one hand that everyone should learn about the Holocaust, given what it has to tell us about the need to fight evil actively, with all the difficult issues that involves. But I think I would really object to being taught the Holocaust in a Palestinian refugee camp or similar “to understand the context of my situation”. It sounds very close to saying that the Holocaust in some way authorises that situation, whereas its actually jewish colonial chauvinism which has created that situation, and those chauvinists often like to say that the Holocaust ‘provides the context’ for the Palestinians situation, even though it doesn’t.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Re: (Apparently he considered it the holiest of texts.)
It certainly makes quite a few references to the Holy of Holies, and no I don’t mean the inner sanctum of Solomon’s Temple. Take a glance and you’ll see what I mean.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Considering that many Jews justify persecuting the “filthy shvatz goyim” (aka Palestinians) because somehow they were responsible for the Holocaust – do they really need to hear about it? I mean – here Israel has turned Gaza into its own Warsaw Ghetto, Palestinian children are murdered for “sport”, and a thousand other daily horrors and it’s ALL HAPPENING NOW, yet, they’re supposed to be expected to welcome indoctrination about something that happened 65 YEARS AGO? Something that is relentlessly and monotonously invoked to cover up The Land Of Milk & Honey’s Nazi Crimes? Maybe the packed residents of Dachau and Bergen-Belson should’ve been forced to listen to nightly lectures on how the Peace of Westphalia placed an unfair burden on Germany. I mean – what type of cruel, stuffed, self-involved, cockamamie Jewish head do you need to think up this shit?
August 31st, 2009 at 3:59 pm
?
Sure, the Avigdor Lieberman/Bibi Netanyahu wing would love this, and the Shimon Peres wing still isn’t willing to get serious and take their medicine, but I guess I missed the part where Matt called for mass suicide or anything like it.
Per studying the Holocaust, on the one hand the Israelis shouldn’t use that as an excuse to stop negotiations. Sure, learning about the Holocaust could promote empathy among Palestinian kids and lessen the likelihood of them becoming suicide bombers or whatever, but any change wouldn’t be noticed for many years down the road. If Israel would rather have peace now, as opposed to waiting several years for the social paradigm in Gaza to shift, then they should deal with Hamas and the PA now. Address textbooks somewhere down the line.
On the other hand, knowing is half the battle, and Palestinian kids would only benefit from learning about the Holocaust. Plus it wouldn’t be that difficult from a logistical perspective to put it in the curriculum. But of course things are so charged up there that people just don’t wanna run the risk of sympathizing with the enemy. Both sides have problems with this sort of thing (a while back Tzipi Livni proposed putting maps in Israeli textbooks that show the Green Line, and Israeli right wingers had a shitfit) but ignoring reality doesn’t help anybody. Of course Holocaust denial is especially ugly.
Plus, it’s not like the Holocaust is Israel’s get out of jail free card to do whatever they want to the Palestinians. Palestinian kids could probably handle a lesson plan that a) teaches them about Jewish suffering at the hands of Germany while b) reminding them that Palestinians shouldn’t be forced to lose their own land to assuage Jewish suffering 70 years ago at the hands of someone else.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Remind me what Arafat’s response was to the Barak/Clinton peace plan in 2000?
August 31st, 2009 at 4:02 pm
I wonder what incorrect beliefs were held by those in 1945 Warsaw ghetto. Specifically, if they sympathized enough with the suffering of the Aryan race during the WWI.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Maybe the UN – or the US as a condition of continued financial and political support – should find a way to require Israeli jews to study the colons of French Algeria. It seems like a good idea to me that, among other things, might help the kids better understand the context for their current situation.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:07 pm
The Stockholm Syndrome?
August 31st, 2009 at 4:09 pm
If anything, I would think South African history would be most relevant.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:12 pm
I wonder what incorrect beliefs were held by those in 1945 Warsaw ghetto. Specifically, if they sympathized enough with the suffering of the Aryan race during the WWI.
abb1, do you want to try that again? Because right now it sounds like you’re comparing the most infamous and extensive practice of genocide in history with the privations suffered by a defeated nation.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:14 pm
I assumed WWI was a typo.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:16 pm
tomemos: FUCK YOU.
The martyrs of Warsaw attacked soldiers. They did not shoot rockets at 7:55 AM every morning to maximize the chance of hitting German children. To equate Hamas with the heroes of Warsaw is such an obscene perversity that it shows what sick mind you have.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:17 pm
“Maybe the UN – or the US as a condition of continued financial and political support – should find a way to require Israeli jews to study the colons of French Algeria. It seems like a good idea to me that, among other things, might help the kids better understand the context for their current situation.”
There are plenty of Jewish refugees from Algeria living in Israel. That context is well understood indeed.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:25 pm
the privations suffered by a defeated nation
Really, 2.5 million dead is “privations” to you? Nice.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:25 pm
One of the main reasons why so many Jews resent their Palestinian victims and chortle at their suffering is because unlike the Jews caught in the Nazis trap – the Palestinians don’t meekly go to their graves in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. They FIGHT BACK. Actually, unlike the Palestinians – the Jews of 1933-45 had tremendous resources and could easily have gotten away, certainly in the beginning of Hitler’s rule.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:28 pm
So telling kids that it happened is “using it as a passport to further suffering”?
Yes, when you are also told that you have to accept everything done to you because of the Holocaust.
I believe Hamas does play right into the hands of the Extremists in Israel when they deny the Holocaust, but it is pretty easy for me to judge, safe here in the U.S., while Palestinians are routinely suppressed by Israel.
I really don’t think teaching the Holocaust is going to create empathy among Palestinian kids for Israel, in fact it might just have the opposite effect of showing Palestineans they have to fight even more, because lets face it we remember that millions died in the Holocaust, but we celebrate those who fought back.
Maybe I’m wrong, and teaching Palestineans about the Holocaust will create empathy, but I also have to ask, what are Israeli children taught about Palestinean rights? Are they taught about the Palestineans who lost their land? Are they taught about life in the refugee camps, or are they ignored?
August 31st, 2009 at 4:30 pm
You all suck.
No, seriously. The more of you that are secretly spoofing and trolling, the higher my opinion will rise of the blogosphere and humanity in general. Because as juvenile (at best) as trolling is on a serious topic, the thought that recurring comments here are taking this comment thread seriously is far more horrifying.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:30 pm
How much chortling have you actually heard, Trevor?
Never let facts get in the way of a good smear.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:30 pm
“Recurring commenters,” of course. Duh…
August 31st, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Holocaust denial is only part of a larger problem in Palestinian political culture. Look at the cult of death surrounding suicide bombing, and how the murders of Jewish civilians, even women and children, are occasion for jubilation in Palestinian society.
I don’t deny for a minute that the Palestinians face a brutal occupation by Israel. However, many, many other societies in modern history have endured similar situations without then embracing the deliberate murder of women and children, or completely demonizing their oppressors.
There can’t be any real peace in Israel/Palestine until this rabid political culture is replaced with a more pragmatic approach.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:35 pm
The denial of a well documented historical event is sad. But the offense at having that historical event taught to people in refugee camps who are having that event used to justify the measures that keep them in the camps is not so hard to understand.
In the context of the false idea that the current treatment of the Palestinians can be defended in terms of the holocaust it is not surprising that the Palestinians consider the teaching of the holocaust to be a kind of propaganda.
It would be nice if each side had more empathy for the situation of the other. (Although it is sometimes argued that each side should have a sense of how the other side lives, and in that case it is probably too good an understanding of how the Israelis live that fuels the problem for the Palestinians). But currently there is only one side that is in the position of having to accept its people get a curiculum from outside their territory, so there is an imbalance here that it is not surprising the Palestinians resent.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:38 pm
You can find out who’s specializing in murdering children here:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ (and send them some money, please.)
It’s racist Zionist scum, of course:
August 31st, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Can you document anything in the Israeli educational curriculum that demonizes Palestinians?
August 31st, 2009 at 4:41 pm
abb1,
You know what makes a person scum? The inability to distinguish intentional killing from unavoidable, collateral damage.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Zionland is engaging in a collective punishment of the 1.4 million people of Gaza….and the UN is concerned about the Holocaust. When did that end? 1945?
Personally, I think that the UN should have spent their time afte 9/11 lecturing Americans about the Trail of Tears.
Those 350+ Palestinian are barely in the ground from the Gaza War Crime and the West is more concerned about Jewish sensitivities, than ending this evil blockade. I guess Jewish sensitivies are more important than Arab lives. Maybe the UB will put that in their lesson plan.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Zionland is engaging in a collective punishment of the 1.4 million people of Gaza….and the UN is concerned about the Holocaust. When did that end? 1945?
Personally, I think that the UN should have spent their time afte 9/11 lecturing Americans about the Trail of Tears.
Those 350+ Palestinian are barely in the ground from the Gaza War Crime and the West is more concerned about Jewish sensitivities than ending this evil blockade. I guess Jewish sensitivies are more important than Arab lives. Maybe the UN will put that in their lesson plan.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:45 pm
“How much chortling have you actually heard, Trevor?
Never let facts get in the way of a good smear.” (RICH)
All you have to do is go to any number of Zionist sites (right and left) and the chortling is rampant. What fucking world are you living in where apologists for Israel show any regard for the Palestinians?
August 31st, 2009 at 4:46 pm
However, many, many other societies in modern history have endured similar situations without then embracing the deliberate murder of women and children, or completely demonizing their oppressors.
Dude, you need to get out a bit more. That’s pretty much always what’s happened since Ur took on Ur-South.
The problem here is that the Israelis can’t do what used to be done ever since Ur *conquered* Ur-South – the wholesale deportation, slaughter or assimilation of the occupied. Notice what happened to their image after the Phlangists went on a completely normal (for Lebanon) killing spree that just happened to be in front of the world media.
Seriously, just read about the sick shit that went on between the US and the Amerindians or the Russians and the Tartars (try to find an independent Tartarstan based around Kazan) or Yankees and Red Sox fans. If you’re a fan of professional sports, and you’ve been in the stands with some tough guys from Yonkers or Southie, you’d be disabused of the notion that people are anything but willing to “demonize” their oppressors.
I just recall how awesome it felt to finally beat the Yankees in 2004; and then I imagine how I’d feel if the Yankees had been not only knocking us around on the field but killing our kids and burning our houses. Whether Israeli or Palestinian, it’s bloody obvious why they’re both so flaming pissed off.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Mythmaker,
The targeting of civilians by Hamas is the exemplification of collective punishment.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Can you document anything in the Israeli educational curriculum that demonizes Palestinians?
Lol, they are Zionists, what other proof do you need, silly? You’re cracking me up.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:49 pm
That is the same evidence cited by Bill O’Reilly when he smears Kos for the quotes of commenters on his blog. Similarly, any idiot can chortle on the sites you cite.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:50 pm
I’ll take that as an admission that you failed my challenge.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:52 pm
If you are sitting around feeling sorry for Israeli’s because they fired some shitty rockets at the property all of them used to live in before they were driven into garbage dumps. Then their garbage dumps, hospitals and schools were leveled killing thousands for the affront there is something seriously wrong with you. That’s moral because *maybe* they said they were doing something serious and that makes it fine to pen your enemies into a tiny ghetto and turn it into a deathtrap.
That’s so morally bankrupt and fucked up I can’t wrap my head around it.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Rich: This is really, really bone-headed: “The targeting of civilians by Hamas is the exemplification of collective punishment.’
So Ohmert ordering an attack that actual killed more than 1,000 Palestinian civilians is “not collective punishment” but the “targeting” of civilians, i.e., the firing of relatively ineffective home made rockets that are fired from Gaza to break the siege and which killed about 7 people, is “collective punishment”?
I guess when you stub your toe that’s a crime against humanity too. Sorry, masta, but I’m off your plantation.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Thank you, Ed Marshall, for concisely exactly what this is all about.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:54 pm
I guess when you stub your toe that’s a crime against humanity too.
In 20 years, tops, one side or both will start thinking about real crimes against humanity, and they’ll make the current mash ups look like stubbed toes.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Egad, I hate the submit botton. What I meant:
“Thank you, Ed Marshall, for concisely stating exactly what this is all about.”
August 31st, 2009 at 4:56 pm
You know what makes a person scum? The inability to distinguish intentional killing from unavoidable, collateral damage.
Lol, you’re a funny fella. But in fact I do distinguish intentional killing from unavoidable, collateral damage.
Colonizers and their families killed in a struggle of a native people for self-determination is unavoidable, collateral damage.
Colonizers killing any indigenous person is a first degree murder.
See? I do, I do.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:58 pm
I think both parties are culpable, Myth, but then again I’m bone-headed, so what do I know.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:59 pm
The British are the colonizers, and it’s not like Jews never lived on the land in the grand historical scheme of things.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Collateral damage = terrorism committed by Western actor.
Terrorism = collateral damage committed by Developing World actor.
Unintentional killing = civilians killed by Western bomb dropped by Western plane on their village.
Terrorism = civilians killed by non-Westerner by bomb brought into the village.
So you see, terrorism is really defined by the angle of delivery of the the bomb into the village. 90 degrees, collateral damage. 0 degrees, terrorism.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Rich: “The British are the colonizers, and it’s not like Jews never lived on the land in the grand historical scheme of things.”
So I guess if the British invaded America, they, too would have a historical claim.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:07 pm
There are plenty of Jewish refugees from Algeria living in Israel. That context is well understood indeed.
The Palestinian kids should be taught the history of Vietnam.
Willard:
Charlie didn’t get much USO. He was dug in too deep or moving too fast. His idea of great R&R was cold rice and a little rat meat. He had only two ways home: death, or victory.
And now Vietnam is kicking ass as a low-cost labor platform! At least they’re doing it on their own terms.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:14 pm
“Colonizers and their families killed in a struggle of a native people for self-determination is unavoidable, collateral damage. ”
That’s funny. The first Jews the Palestinians murdered were Jews living in Hebron in 1929 who had been there for 400 years.
Indigenous my ass. The Palestinians were fighting for Muslim religious supremacy.
And still are.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:14 pm
If the British had installed another population that had historical ties to America, then I would say that your analogy is spot on. But in light of the disparate fact patterns, not so much
August 31st, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Rich: The “disparate fact patterns” are simple. We have one set of rules for White people, another for everyone else. As I said, I’m off your plantation.
August 31st, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Adn what friggin’ racist planet is Omri from? Eveytime the Zionistas murder a Palestinian child in the 21st Century he brings up the Hebron Massacre from 1929. That’s right: 1929.
The only way that’s relevant is if believe that Jewish lives are worth more than everyone else’s. I don’t.
August 31st, 2009 at 6:28 pm
I come from the planet where intentions are proved by events.
Fuckwads like you claim that this struggle is indngenous folk versus invaders. But events like Hebron PROVE that this is not the case. The Hebronite Arabs went and massacred with knives Jews whose families had been there for centuries.
Q. E. Fucking D.
August 31st, 2009 at 6:52 pm
Omri: the only thing you proved is that you are a moron.
Q. E. Fucking D.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Funny how you don’t address the point, but just name call and try to sidestep.
So, if this is indigenous-versus-invader,
1. Why Hebron ?
2. Why Jerusalem in 1920 and 1921, again, native Jerusalemite Jews massacred.
3. Why incite violence against Jews all over the Arab World and bring them INTO Israel?
You know full fucking well that this is about Muslim supremacy and nothing else. And that is why you are reduced to namecalling
August 31st, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Oh, what the hell…Offhand, I don’t believe Palestinian Christians are any more pro-Israel than Muslims are.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:26 pm
Re: Colonizers and their families killed in a struggle of a native people for self-determination is unavoidable, collateral damage.
I suppose Mr. Abb1 endorses the Indian Mutiny too.
I mean, hell, I’m Indian, and _I_ don’t endorse the Indian Mutiny.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:29 pm
“So, if this is indigenous-versus-invader,”
For the record, the Jews were about 0.6% of the population of Palestine in 1900. They were 15% in 1929. So while it is true that there were some indigenous Jews in Palestine in 1929, they represented about 5% of the Jewish population then, while the other 95% were recent immigrants. I wouldn’t call them invaders, as the Ottoman Empire allowed most of them in under strong pressure from England and the United States. So you can talk about Hebron all you want, but it’s a cherry picked incident. And it certainly doesn’t prove your assertion that the tiny Jewish minority at the time represented a significant indigenous Jewish population. And in all of the 1929 riots, Jews and Muslims will killed in roughly equal numbers. But somehow, the killing of Muslims during the riots is completely ignored.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:37 pm
“I mean, hell, I’m Indian, and _I_ don’t endorse the Indian Mutiny.”
I’m not Indian, and I do support the Indian Mutiny, although I usually call it the Sepoy Rebellion. Some of the worst aspects of India were created by the British. And in 1857, the British were pretty much the most evil and nasty invasion force on the planet. It’s hard to support what they did in India.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:41 pm
The Holocaust is an important part of why Israel currently exists as a nation. If you live next to Israel this could be useful to know.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:00 pm
I don’t get Hamas’s stake in Holocaust denial. If Hamas holds to the traditional Islamic view that Jews and Christians should be protected, but subjugated, as second-class citizens in an Islamic state (while Zoroastrians, Baha’i, etc are third-class or whatever), then the fact that a bunch of Germans, mainly Christian or secular, killed a bunch of Jews under the auspices of the secular nationalist Nazi regime, just goes to show that the world outside Dar al-Islam is a violent, unjust place which is bad for everyone, even those who aren’t Muslims. If Hamas adheres to a more radically anti-Semitic view, along the lines of “throw the Jew down the well,” then why should they care about denying that the Holocaust happened? Why not “nice job, Mr. Himmler?”
August 31st, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Re: And in 1857, the British were pretty much the most evil and nasty invasion force on the planet. It’s hard to support what they did in India.
What the F*ck?
Fostert, one of the titular ‘heroes’ of the Mutiny lured 200 British women and children out of their fort under promises of safe conduct, locked them in a dungeon, and then in cold blood sent in thugs with meat cleavers to dispatch them. More to the point, let’s remember what these nice fellows were fighting for. They were fighting for a society in which a Dalit man could be beaten to death because his shadow fell across a Brahmin’s. A society in which a couple could be locked into a house and set on fire for having the temerity to marry across caste lines. A society in which some people would rather see a Dalit man die of thirst then allow him to drink from a Brahmin well. My ancestors were part and parcel of that system of oppression and I feel some residual guilt over it even today. The Mutiny was made in large part by some of the most reactionary elements in society, and it was fought in the name of the opium-addicted effete playboy that called himself “Emperor of Hindustan”, Bahadur Shah Zaffar. Pardon me if I am not impressed.
Colonization was, I think, a necessary evil in India, and i would have stayed loyal in 1857. As did most Indians- do not forget that over half the country, including the South and the Punjab, who can by no means be accused of cowardice- stayed loyal to the British during the rebellion.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Julian Elson,
The answer is that anti-semites are not known for their logical consistency. How else do you manage to accuse the same people of being the secret force behind capitalism _and_ Bolshevism?
August 31st, 2009 at 8:23 pm
People can get themselves into all sorts of psychological relations with reality. In a smaller way, the current arguments from the not-so-stable right in America against health insurance reform, for example. Many Arabs seem to believe both that the Holocaust never happened, or maybe it happened but it was the Jews’ own fault, or it happened but it wasn’t as bad as it’s been made out to be — and also that it was a good thing. Just like some people think 9/11 was a fraud and at the same time that we had it coming.
Unrelated point: Yglesias seems unable to criticize Palestinians without also criticizing Israel; but not the converse. It’s a less crazy version of the above, in that while it isn’t internally incoherent in a factual sense, it nevertheless short-circuits following things to their conclusion, in this instance: that Hamas is not reality-based; that while demanding respect for their own narrative, they deny that respect to others; that they aren’t interested in educating future generations differently; that they either don’t understand or don’t care how this looks in the rest of the world; etc. All deeply problematic when it comes to negotiating a resolution to the conflict.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Matt, why are you blaming Israel for the fact that Hamas denies the Holocaust?
“Israeli officials are using this argument as a pretext” — no, Israel can point to this as one of many, many valid reasons why genocidal racist terrorist organizations like the Palestinians and Hamas deserve absolutely no respect, aid, or sympathy from any government or anybody with a brain and any idea of what’s going on over there. Hamas and the “moderate” Palestinians both have the founding goal of genociding the Jews. Both officially deny Hitler’s holocaust and both officially want to start another one. The only difference is that Hamas, as part of the Muslim Brotherhood, wants to go world-wide and will not stop at the Jews.
And how can you find any fault with Israel over conditions in Gaza so many years after Israel pulled out and partially sealed its border? (They still let aid through.) Gaza is independent. Israel has no more responsibility to do anything for Gaza than Egypt, Britain, or Greece. Israel has the right to seal its borders, the same as any other country, especially since there is obviously no free trade agreement between Israel and Hamas which might force the borders to be open; any that might have ever existed has been nullified by the near-daily casus belli. Given the state of war, Israel also has the right to block Gaza’s seaways and seize it imports. A treaty would give Israel some responsibilities towards Gaza, but Hamas insists on the long-term continuation of war as a precondition to any agreement so there isn’t going to be any treaty with Gaza.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:48 pm
the context for their current situation.
so the Holocaust is why children in Gaza are malnourished and their families do not have access to running water
August 31st, 2009 at 9:54 pm
what type of cruel, stuffed, self-involved, cockamamie Jewish head do you need to think up this shit
Hey Trevor, whatever ethnic group you’re part of is all a bunch of retarded evil sons-of-pigs!
:P:P
August 31st, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Matt: “The indifference of both the Israeli government and the Hamas leadership toward the practical aspects of this humanitarian crisis is truly appalling.”
Uhm, Matt, care to establish some EVIDENCE for your claim that Hamas is “indifferent”? The indifference of Israel is quite clear. The “indifference” of Hamas, not so much.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:05 pm
As did most Indians- do not forget that over half the country, including the South and the Punjab, who can by no means be accused of cowardice- stayed loyal to the British during the rebellion.
The bulk of the Hindus and Sikhs much preferred rule by an absent foreign power to rule by a nearby dynasty of Muslims from the Central Provinces originally from Central Asia. And so did most of the Muslims.
The biggest mistake made by the mutineers was propping up that figurehead of the old Mughal. That, and focusing on strategically irrelevant pockets like Lucknow.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Uhm, Matt, care to establish some EVIDENCE for your claim that Hamas is “indifferent”? The indifference of Israel is quite clear. The “indifference” of Hamas, not so much.
Well, duh, Richard. Hamas is powerless to do anything but blow themselves up and offer Saudi and Emirate money to the families of bombers or victims of military action.
They don’t exactly have an Islamic Brotherhood electrical plant or a water reclamation facility.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:11 pm
They could have one in weeks. All they have to do is ask nicely.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Didn’t Hamas get started as a builder of hospitals and schools?
They’re not exactly indifferent to the Palestinians’ plight. They seem to care quite a lot about their countrymen. They just also seem to care about being macho and causing Israel as much pain as possible, which has the effect of giving the Israelis an excuse to blow up the aforementioned hospitals and schools.
If Hamas gave up their macho-ness and took a clue from Nelson Mandela, they would have an independent state pretty quickly, seems to me – that, or democratic control of Israel itself. But they just can’t seem to give up the macho. Sigh.
August 31st, 2009 at 11:08 pm
They could have one in weeks. All they have to do is ask nicely.
Please – be serious here. Israel is a monster that wants the Palestinians to go away, and would forcibly relocate them if it weren’t for the mass international condemnation that would follow. Asking Israel nicely doesn’t do anything – it’s already been tried.
September 1st, 2009 at 2:11 am
That’s funny. The first Jews the Palestinians murdered were Jews living in Hebron in 1929 who had been there for 400 years.
Here’s what wikipedia says about your Hebron massacre, how it started:
What else but Zionist scum?
September 1st, 2009 at 3:06 am
No. It is jewish colonial chauvinism plus the power of colonial lobbies in the UK and the US which is the fundamental reason that Israel currently exists as a nation, and was well on the way to doing so for these reasons before 1940. Those chauvinists and their fellow travelers tend to say, however, “The Holocaust is an important part of why Israel currently exists as a nation.”
September 1st, 2009 at 3:49 am
It’s a floor wax AND a dessert topping!
September 1st, 2009 at 4:31 am
well if people are vitamin D deprived in the middle east, its because of wearing burkas, not because of anything israel is doing. But blame the jews for your own stupid religion, ok.
September 1st, 2009 at 7:30 am
Re: They warn that tens of thousands of children are going malnourished due to “deficiencies in iron, vitamin A and vitamin D.”
Holy Chr*st. Tens of thousands of CHILDREN, genius. Children do not wear burqas, not in Islam or in any religion that I am aware of. They get vitamin D deficiency probably because they don’t have access to milk or eggs. I certainly wouldn’t blame ‘the Jews’ for that, but I think it’s fair to blame the concrete policies of the Israeli government.
Mr. Abb1,
Oh right, that makes perfect sense. Yelling some feeble taunts is clearly fair provocation for a massacre.
Which of these two bright boys is dumber? It’s truly hard to tell.
September 1st, 2009 at 8:12 am
Yelling some feeble taunts is clearly fair provocation for a massacre.
That particular community (Palestine) had been pretty much perfectly peaceful and harmonious for about 2000 years, thru all the trials and tribulation, crusades and various empires.
Then, early in the 20th century a bunch of armed militant racist scum arrived from Europe, believe me, doing much more than just yelling: all kinds of racist provocations, terrorism, intimidation, you name it – and pretty soon the whole place goes to hell in a handbasket.
So, yes, all things considered: clearly a fair provocation for a riot, which is what it was.
Wait, why am I even talking to a dumbass like you, Hector?
September 1st, 2009 at 10:00 am
Peaceful my ass. Every travelogue visiting the region noted the Jews were living under a Jim Crow regime.
You miss the good old days, eh abb1?
September 1st, 2009 at 10:11 am
This thread is thoroughly entertaining. Even those spouting some really nasty stuff seemed like they were at least indirectly relating what they were saying to reality even if it was in a completely convoluted and contextless way. But I think this take the cake for
Teh Awesomest fantasizing ever:
September 1st, 2009 at 12:05 pm
“(my comment) But currently there is only one side that is in the position of having to accept its people get a curiculum from outside their territory, so there is an imbalance here that it is not surprising the Palestinians resent.
(Rich)Can you document anything in the Israeli educational curriculum that demonizes Palestinians?”
I am curious why you are asking this rather than answering my point above since you took the trouble to quote it. Do you really not see the difference it makes in being able to control what is taught in ones classrooms and having an outside agency dictate what is taught to your people? My guess is that the Israeli children are taught that the unwillingness of the Palestinians to accept prepetual second class status shows they are not interested in peace. And that is certainly a form of villification. But I have not looked through the Israeli curriculum to confirm this. It seems a lesser point though since the fact that the Israeli government pens the Palestinians in like animals teaches their children that Palestinians are the kind of things that can be penned in like animals. Actually adding that to the curriculum almost seems superfluous.
However the disparity between controlling what is taught in ones territory and having it imposed from the outside seems to be a serious difference that you distracted from rather than answering.
September 1st, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Every travelogue visiting the region noted the Jews were living under a Jim Crow regime.
Bullshit. Before Zionist immigration started there was no problem whatsoever.
September 1st, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Right. And before Jewish agitators showed up in the South there were no problems either.
September 1st, 2009 at 2:25 pm
“Christians cannot live at Hebron, and Jews there are treated as dogs.”
From 1895, “Jews of Many Lands” a travelogue you can find in Google Books.
No problem whatsoever, eh, abb1? maybe from your perspective.
September 1st, 2009 at 2:51 pm
This link says that the book was written in 1905 by Elkan Nathan Adler, who, says wikipedia, was an “ardent Zionist.”
So, you quote an ardent Zionist to prove something to me? Right.
Incidentally, it’s clear from this quote that even the little ultra-radical fundamentalist enclave he’s describing (and probably lying) favored Jews over Christians, who weren’t accepted at all. Which proves my point, thank you.
September 1st, 2009 at 3:22 pm
And you quote only yourself in defending this fantasy of “no problem whatsoever”.
The 3rd class status of Jews among Muslims is firmly established in the historical record. Turkish-ruled Israel was no exception.
September 1st, 2009 at 3:37 pm
“The Jews at Jerusalem were singularly forbearing with strangers, and—considering their general antipathy to all Gentiles—were almost civil and obliging. This unnatural good-will might perhaps be due in part to my escort, the well-known Yakoob ; perhaps, too, in part to their own despised condition, for, scarcely tolerated and often persecuted as they are by their Muslim rulers, they dare not show an illiberal spirit, or display any tokens of religious hostility or rancour through fear of retaliation ; still more,”
Narrative of a Modern Pilgrimage, Alfred Charles Smith.
There’s lots more.
September 1st, 2009 at 4:17 pm
So, the Jews at Jerusalem wouldn’t display any tokens of religious hostility or rancor (in a predominantly Muslim community) through fear of retaliation – is that it, that’s how terribly they were oppressed? Well, sorry mate, but the absence of display of hostility or rancor is exactly what I call “peaceful and harmonious.”
So then, you would like them to display hostility and rancor, is that it? And then you will complain about riots and massacres? Nice, nice going, brother.
September 1st, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Like I said, there’s lots more. The subjugation of Jews in Muslim lands is a matter of thie historical record, and there is lots more. You want a quote for every time you post your moronic claim?
Can you provide just one, just one eentsy beentsy bit of evidence that there was “no problem whatsoever” ?
Come on, moron. Do it.
September 1st, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Chateaubriand, 1806:
Special target of all contempt [i.e., of both Muslims and Christians], they lower their heads without complaint; they suffer all insults without demanding justice; they let themselves be crushed by blows… Penetrate the dwellings of these people, you will find them in frightful poverty…
Nothing can prevent them from turning their gaze towards Zion. When one sees the Jews dispersed throughout the world,… one is probably surprised, but, to be struck by supernatural astonishment, it is necessary to find them in Jerusalem.. . to see these legitimate owners of Judea, slaves and strangers in their own land. One must see them under all oppressions, awaiting a king who is to redeem them.
So, no problem whatsoever, asshole?
September 1st, 2009 at 4:31 pm
“Well, sorry mate, but the absence of display of hostility or rancor is exactly what I call “peaceful and harmonious.”
There was no display of rancor or hostility in Mississippi in the 1930’s. Them darkies knew their place, and all was peaceful and harmonious.
Pity those agitators fucked it all up. Just like their Zionist cousins.
September 1st, 2009 at 5:12 pm
…to see these legitimate owners of Judea…
This guy seems a bit deranged – legitimate owners of Judea? Slaves? What’s all that supposed to mean? Too much absinthe, I suspect.
The fact, however, remains that Jews and Christians lived in Jerusalem for hundreds of years – no violence, and no problems, like I said.
But please don’t let the facts persuade you; go on, by all means.
There was no display of rancor or hostility in Mississippi in the 1930’s. Them darkies knew their place, and all was peaceful and harmonious.
No, that’s not true, it wasn’t peaceful or harmonious – there was plenty of violence in Mississippi in the 1930’s; you know: lynchings and so on. There was no violence in Jerusalem during the period between crusaders and Zionists.
September 1st, 2009 at 5:24 pm
You’re just grasping at straws. That style of writing was typical for the early 1800s.
“No, that’s not true, it wasn’t peaceful or harmonious – there was plenty of violence in Mississippi in the 1930’s; you know: lynchings and so on. There was no violence in Jerusalem during the period between crusaders and Zionists.”
There was enough violence to establish the fear written about. People don’t act so submissively without the threat of violence hanging over their heads.
But since you are defending this kind of oppression, just answer this: do you consider this the proper lot of a Jew?
September 1st, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Safed. 1834:
…the Jews of the place, who were exceedingly wealthy, had lived peaceably in their retirement until the insurrection which took place in 1834, but about the beginning of that year a highly religious Mussulman called Mohammed Damoor went forth into the market-place, crying with a loud voice, and prophesying that on the fifteenth of the following June the true Believers would rise up in just wrath against the Jews, and despoil them of their gold and their silver and their jewels…When that day dawned the whole Mussulman population of the place assembled in the streets that they might see the result of the prophecy. Suddenly Mohammed Damoor rushed furious into the crowd, and the fierce shout of the prophet soon ensured the fulfilment of his prophecy. Some of the Jews fled and some remained, but they who fled and they who remained, alike, and unresistingly, left their property to the hands of the spoilers. The most odious of all outrages, that of searching the women for the base purpose of discovering such things as gold and silver concealed about their persons, was perpetrated without shame. The poor Jews were so stricken with terror, that they submitted to their fate even where resistance would have been easy…When the insurrection was put down some of the Mussulmans (most probably those who had got no spoil wherewith they might buy immunity) were punished, but the greater part of them escaped. None of the booty was restored, and the pecuniary redress which the Pasha had undertaken to enforce for them had been hitherto so carefully delayed, that the hope of ever obtaining it had grown very faint.
So.
Peaceful and harmonious?
Just face it, asshole. There was no peace. There was no harmony. There was oppression.
September 1st, 2009 at 5:51 pm
do you consider this the proper lot of a Jew?
What does it even mean? Unlike you, asshole, I don’t see any difference between Jews and Gentiles; is this still not clear to you, asshole?
and despoil them of their gold and their silver and their jewels…
Well, it appears that, in fact, you, asshole, are grasping at straws. Some smash&grab bazaar incident, this is the best you got, asshole?
Yes, this is still peaceful and harmonious, by the 19th c. standards. The opium wars, the French 1948 revolution, the Irish famine – these were non-peaceful events of the period.
September 1st, 2009 at 5:52 pm
By the standards of World War Two, every other period and place in human history has been peaceful and harmonious.
Backpedal, abb1, backpedal!
September 1st, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Another description of the riot in 1834:
The rebellion in Safed was declared on 8 of Sivan (June 15, 1834). From all the nearby towns and villages Arabs and Bedouins came to the city drunk from revolt and began delivering havoc on the Jews. With large and small shields, lances and rifles, the first thing they did was to attack the Jews. They stripped the clothing from men and women, tore pillows and featherbeds, and spread the feathers around, tore Bible books, raped a man and a woman, destroyed houses and synagogues, and murdered many people from Israel.
“Gentiles came to the domain of the Lord, in the little holiness of our temples and synagogues, and defiled the chamber of our holiness and threw all our cherished books of the Torah to the ground. They tortured righteous women upon them, and all holiness of our homes, phylacteries (tefilin) and doorpost (mezuzah) looted and plundered and thrown. And they took from the Bible books to make straps for their horses and shoes for their feet… they destroyed our homes, beating the Jews blows of death and loss. And many of them became blind and invalids, and from among them, several souls died strange deaths.”
Many of the Jews fled immediately to the near and the faraway fields and mountains, outside the city, many among them naked and barefoot. Others ran to the synagogues to die a holy death there. “In the house of learning (beit midrash) of the Pharisees many gathered with their Rabbi, Rabbi Israel, author of Pe’at Shulhan –- and among them many were already wounded and injured – and they where blowing in the shofar.” And many found cover in neighbors’ yards, with Arab acquaintances and in basements.
The eruption of the rebellion came suddenly and caused much panic. Home dwellers fled in many directions, the husband ran to the field outside the city, the infant stayed lying in the cradle, and the mother in her hideout -– and the cries of the miserable -– oi father! Oi my son – tore the heavens.
So. Peaceful, you say? Harmonious?
September 1st, 2009 at 6:44 pm
So, some hours ago you said this, abb1:
“Every travelogue visiting the region noted the Jews were living under a Jim Crow regime.
Bullshit. Before Zionist immigration started there was no problem whatsoever.”
Now you admit there was a Jim Crow regime, but claim it was “peaceful and harmonious.”
Ready to concede that point? Or did a cat get your tongue, abb1?
September 1st, 2009 at 6:50 pm
abb1’s back under his bridge.
September 1st, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Boy, even the Nazis didn’t mandate reading Mein Kampf in the camps.
September 2nd, 2009 at 1:57 am
@104. Dear Asshole,
it’s odd that you never provide a link to any of your stories, thus arousing suspicion that they are fake – and of course it would be quite typical for a racist Zionist asshole like yourself to invent stories, because racist Zionist assholes like yourself don’t believe in truth and facts, but only what your racist Zionist asshole replacement for a brain computes as “good for the Jews”.
Nevertheless, asshole, assuming your story is true: if what you have here is the grand total of one single pogrom for almost 2000 thousand years – that, I’ll say, is the definition of peaceful and harmonious.
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:36 am
abb1, Google’s your friend. You can type whole phrases into it and discover a multitude of things.
Like the fact that Jews in the Muslim World were under a Jim Crow regime, especially in pre-Mandate Israel.
Idiot. Come on. You already backpedaled to “well, it was better than all out war.” Ready to backpedal further?
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:38 am
And in the quotes I gave you, asshole, there was plenty of mention of DAILY violence and oppression against Jews.
The massacre was just a particularly nasty day of it.
Harmonious?
Come on, asshole, you DENIED, called BULLSHIT on the claim there was a Jim Crow regime. You know full well there was one.
Backpedal further, asshole. Backpedal!
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:51 am
Dear Idiot Asshole,
but what exactly does this “under a Jim Crow regime” thing mean to you? That the Jews had (and probably still do) segregated schools and neighborhoods? I’m sure that’s true, but that’s exactly what they wanted (and some still do).
You see, Idiot Asshole, I’m quite certain that, unlike, say, Jews in Nazi Germany or blacks in the US South, any Jew in any Muslim country can convert to Islam and immediately become a full-fledged member of the majority community. The thing is that those called “Jews” in the Muslim countries want to be segregated, they specifically refuse to integrate, that’s the whole point of them being Jews.
So, your idiotic “Jim Crow regime” rhetoric is quite meaningless in this case, asshole.
Yes, it is at times tricky to be a religious minority, but compared to what even different kinds of Christians were doing to each other all those years (the St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre, etc.), that was very peaceful indeed, asshole.
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:01 am
”
but what exactly does this “under a Jim Crow regime” thing mean to you? That the Jews had (and probably still do) segregated schools and neighborhoods? I’m sure that’s true, but that’s exactly what they wanted (and some still do).”
Segregated and kept poor through discrimination and violence.
As reported by everyone who lived in the region at the time.
Backpedal, asshole, backpedal.
Do you still claim “no problem whatsoever”??
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:10 am
“You see, Idiot Asshole, I’m quite certain that, unlike, say, Jews in Nazi Germany or blacks in the US South, any Jew in any Muslim country can convert to Islam and immediately become a full-fledged member of the majority community. The thing is that those called “Jews” in the Muslim countries want to be segregated, they specifically refuse to integrate, that’s the whole point of them being Jews. ”
So you believe that Jews should be placed under oppression if they refuse to convert out.
Thank you for clarifying. It explains a whole lot about you.
You are scum.
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Self-segregated, asshole, and refusing to integrate, you racist Zionist scum. Yes, those who refuse to integrate find themselves isolated, and for a good reason; what do you expect, idiot?
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Oh, and how does your 112 “segregated and kept poor” square with your 101 “the Jews of the place, who were exceedingly wealthy, had lived peaceably in their retirement” (note “peaceably”, btw), asshole?
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Incidentally, here’s the context for your Safed story:
http://www.mideastweb.org/palrevolt.htm
In the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century, the Ottoman Turkish empire fell into a deep crisis, complicated by Napoleon’s invasion of Egypt and Palestine. Palestine suffered from rapacious, negligent and corrupt government, and several small revolts took place.
From 1831 to about 1841, Syria and Palestine were wrested from Turkey by the Egyptian ruler, a former vassal of the Ottomans, Muhammed ‘Ali and his son Ibrahim Pasha, the commander-in-chief of the Egyptian army. They followed a repressive policy of conscription and taxation, leading to a revolt of Palestinian Arabs. On May 19, 1834 a group of important families and sheiks from Nablus, Jerusalem and Hebron, led by Qasim al-Ahmad, chief of Jamma’in subdistrict of Jabal Nablus, informed the Egyptian military governor that they could no longer supply their quotas of conscripts for military service, because the peasants had fled from the villages into the mountainous area which were difficult to reach.
Ibrahim desperately needed more soldiers. He had suffered heavy causalities in previous battles and was planning another round against the Ottomans. He sent soldiers to enforce the conscription. . In the Hebron area about 25 Egyptian soldiers who arrived to impose the conscription order were killed. From Nablus, hundreds of rebels marched to besiege Jerusalem. The Abu Ghosh clan, which controlled the road between Jaffa and Jerusalem as well as the surrounding villages, joined the rebel forces. On the last day of May the rebels conquered Jerusalem, except for its citadel. Ibrahim managed to retake Jerusalem in June, but he did not quell the revolt, which spread to Safed, Tiberias and Haifa. In July, Muhammed Ali himself arrived with a fleet and 15,000 troops. After buying off the Abu Ghosh clan with an amnesty and other concessions, he conquered the Palestinian cities of what is now the West Bank, sending ten thousand fellahin to Egypt as conscripts, carrying off notables into captivity, destroying whole villages and raping large numbers of women.
—-
So, clearly your pogrom (assuming it’s true) wasn’t an ordinary incident, it was but one small piece of a large upheaval, foreign invasion with villages destroyed and large numbers of women raped. But of course for racist Zionist scum like you none of that matters, except for one thing: some Jews were robbed! Horror!
September 4th, 2009 at 10:18 am
6. Jews. We now come to the Jews. Latterly they have increased in numbers in the ancient city of Jerusalem ; but everywhere throughout the Turkish dominions they are a despised, degraded, and a persecuted race. Denied all civil privileges, tyrannized over and trampled upon, their character is just what such treatment is calculated to make it. Of all the inhabitants of Palestine none are so poor and so wretched-looking as the Jews. Those who possess wealth are obliged to keep it secret lest the persecuting Turks should render their exactions more oppressive. It is not uncommon for the traveller to find the outside of a Jew’s house dirty and miserable-looking, and the inside well- furnished with all that contributes to comfort and happiness. Jerusalem is still the Holy City of the Jews ; and when wandering far away in the various countries of Europe, Asia, and Africa, and struggling against a common persecution and oppression they feel the bitterness of their servitude, thitherward they cast their eyes, and a transient gleam of hope that a brighter day will yet dawn upon Israel, affords a momentary but delusive gladness.
You were saying??
September 4th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
It is not relevant what the Ottoman government (those who he calls “Turks”) did. My point is that Jews lived in harmony in the community. He confirms it at least in regards to Jerusalem, and elsewhere he blames “Turks” for the oppression. But “Turks” are not Palestinians, they not members of the local community, they are an external imperial power.