Bobby Jindal’s Newfound HSR Enthusiasm
When last we met Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, he was trashing his reputation for intelligence and seriousness about public policy with this nonsensical attack on trains and volcano monitoring as wasteful:
JINDAL: While some of the projects in the bill make sense, their legislation is larded with wasteful spending. It includes $300 million to buy new cars for the government, $8 billion for high-speed rail projects, such as a “magnetic levitation” line from Las Vegas to Disneyland, and $140 million for something called “volcano monitoring.”
Now my colleague Lee Fang observes that Jindal seems to love trains:
The AP reported earlier this month that Gov. Bobby Jindal’s (R-LA) administration is planning to request $300 million dollars from the federal government to develop a high-speed rail between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. The trains, which would run at about 79mph, would be part of a larger Gulf Coast rail plan with top speeds of 110mph. Much of the money, however, comes from the Recovery Act, a stimulus measure Jindal not only opposed, but recently called a failure.
I haven’t looked at this issue in detail, but on the face of it a Baton Rouge to New Orleans line actually does sound to me like a wasteful project. We’re talking about connecting the 46th largest metro area in the country to the 67th largest, which suggests that there are a lot of city pairs that ought to be higher priorities. Compare that to Chicago (number three) and Milwaukee (number 39) or consider that the state of Florida contains four separate metro areas (Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville) that are all larger than New Orleans. According to Google, the drive between these cities only takes an hour and a half. You could imagine this working, and of course if the state of Louisiana has some vision for it I wouldn’t want to discourage them, but as a use of federal money this strikes me as pretty low down the list of rail projects I would want to fund.
55 Responses to “Bobby Jindal’s Newfound HSR Enthusiasm”
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August 19th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
The LSU Express for alums in New Orleans and the Mardi Gras Express for LSU students in Baton Rouge.
DUI’s along I-10 will drop by 90% with this line…
/not serious
August 19th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Matthew Yglesias I hereby command the demons of negativity to flee your bodily vessel! Evil spirit begone and set Matthew’s soul free! Prince of the heavenly armies defend us from this denial of our public works project’s value! God of Martyrs, God of Confessors, God of Virgins, let us have our stimulus money! I command this in Christ’s name!
August 19th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
New Orleans to Baton Rouge hight speed rail?? WTF?? Why bother. It like putting high speed rail between DC and Baltimore distance wise. I am sorry I am from N.O.L.A and frankly can’t see the point.
Of course Tony B could have the answer.
August 19th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
As a lifelong-until-a-few-years-ago resident of New Orleans, I will tell you that since Katrina, Baton Rouge has been trying desperately to refashion itself into a “cosmopolitan,” whiter version of New Orleans – a haven for the upper-middle-class good folks scared stiff of all the unverified stories they heard during Katrina (you know, roving rape gangs, etc). A train between New Orleans and Baton Rouge really would only end up being a White Flight Express. And frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if Jindal’s motive is exactly that: to drain yet more blood (and tax base) out of a very blue city in a very red state.
I know what you’re thinking, and of course Baton Rouge is the state’s capitol, but it has never had (and doesn’t deserve) 1% of the cultural cachet or name recognition of New Orleans – and its politicos are as corrupt or worse, but they’re white so no one reports on them. And since the Christianist Republican (and oil company) takeover of the state decades ago, beating up on New Orleans has been a full-time job in the state government. Because you see, federal stimulus dollars are FANTASTIC when they’re going to Baton Rouge – they are TYRANNY if you give them to those dirty poor folks in New Orleans.
BTW the drives takes about two hours in good traffic (1 1/2 hours at night with no cars on the road). The unasked question is why would you want to make it?
August 19th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
I’ve seen you use the market size of two ends of a HSR line to compare their relative worth, and that makes sense, as a first approximation. However, wouldn’t the current level of auto-traffic between the two locations be a better gauge of the value of the HSR line (especially a relatively short one like this).
I say this because i’ve lived in Baton Rouge and live in Jacksonville (and have lived in Atlanta, Birmingham, and near huntsville). There’s noplace I’ve lived that had a higher “connection” (i.e. amount of people who travel from one to the other) than Baton Rouge/New Orleans, not even Birmingham/Atlanta.
August 19th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
me makes a good point, although Me should change his/her name so me no get Me confused with someone else.
I think Baton Rouge/New Orleans would be a worthwhile connector only if HSR lines from New Orleans (the obvious real “capitol” of Louisiana) to larger cities in other states already existed. In other words, it sounds intuitively like a better connector for later on, rather than a place to start building now.
August 19th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Orlando is about 1 1/2 hours from either Tampa or Jacksonville, but at least four hours from Mimai. Jacksonville and Tampa are probably three hours apart and at least five to Miami.
August 19th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I actually don’t think it’s so bad. These are both cities with substantial growth potential over the next 10-12 years.
If we want to change the way big cities work in the US, it’s probably a good idea to start with some growing cities and allow them to grow in a less car dependent way. It strikes me as potentially much more difficult to start with the biggest cities in the country and try to force a conversion of existing infrastructure to a more rail-centric mix. But what do I know . . .
If we can get a rail project done, let’s just do it. Like Matt has said before, the emergence of a Big Rail lobby would do wonders for rail projects nationwide. And the way to get a rail lobby is to start building railroads.
August 19th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Matt,
Actually, given the large amount of casual travel between the places, the possibility of routing stations near the football stadiums, and DUI angle, this doesn’t seem absurd on its face. This would also help leave the interstate more clear for 18-wheelers travelling from Mexico and Houston to other points in the South/Florida.
Now, that said, Governor Jindal’s remarkable hypocracy on the subject shouldn’t go un-mocked and un-reported.
August 19th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
I actually don’t think it’s so bad. These are both cities with substantial growth potential over the next 10-12 years.
Wait. I thought that if the sealevels rise the way they’ve been doing, in 20-30 years New Orleans will be in more danger of permanent inundation than Rotterdam or Amsterdam???
August 19th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
federal stimulus dollars are FANTASTIC when they’re going to Baton Rouge – they are TYRANNY if you give them to those dirty poor folks in New Orleans.
The Republican political philosophy in a nutshell.
BTW the drives takes about two hours in good traffic (1 1/2 hours at night with no cars on the road). The unasked question is why would you want to make it?
You remind me of Ignatius Reilly. (Of whom I’m happy to be reminded.)
August 19th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Also, since when is 79mph “high-speed rail”?
August 19th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Matt,
Yep, this just the good ol’ boys down in N’ Awl’ns with they hands out fah Uncle Sugah.
By the way, Chicago/Milwaukee has LSR already (79 mph Amtrak). There are six round trips daily and an extra early morning RT except Sunday on the Hiawatha service on the CP (Milwaukee) main through Sturtevant. The service is fast and reliable between CUT and Milwaukee Airport station, but is kind of killed by the entry into Milwaukee. It takes 74 minutes to do the 78 miles to the airport with two intermediate stops. Then it takes fifteen minutes to do the final eight miles.
But, the service does already exist. It might be reasonable to ooch things up to 90, but I doubt there’s any need for speeds faster than that with stops every twenty-some miles. It’s just a waste of energy.
August 19th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Actually, the last time we heard from Bobby Jindal he was handing out giant novelty checks filled with presumably wasteful stimulus money.
August 19th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
This is a good idea, Matt, and not just because I live in New Orleans. It’s good because it provides an evacuation route that isn’t dependent on owning a car that can sit for 18 hours in traffic; it’s good because between BR and NO are all sorts of bedroom communities and suburbs where people commute by car into the CBD; it’s good because we have piss-poor air quality and a reduction in trips by car will be a great thing for our environment (along with the closure of all the damn chemical plants); finally, it’s good because Jindal-antics aside, the feds could throw us a fucking bone after the crap we’ve been through for the past four years.
Oh, also, this is the first step to HSR between Houston and New Orleans, and that is *definitely* worth the money. Stop hating!
August 19th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
It’s the sort of commuter line (London to Brighton-ish) that would make sense as part of a decent rail system. My gut sense is that if Jindal got the money for it to be built, he’d suddenly turn into an anti-pork fiscal scold at any attempt to connect it to a wider network outside of Louisiana.
August 19th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
the possibility of routing stations near the football stadiums
Yeah, right. How many games do they play each year, at LSU and the Superdome combined?
August 19th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
A commuter-rail-style line between New Orleans and Baton Rouge is a good idea. You could even use the existing Kansas City Southern line.
HSR between New Orleans and Baton Rouge makes sense only as part of a larger HSR line between New Orleans and Houston or Dallas, and perhaps only then if the line extended east to Jacksonville. But even Houston-N.O.-Jacksonville should be a lower priority than a number of HSR routes of a comparable length, such as Chicago-Cleveland-Pittsburgh-NYC/DC or DC-Richmond-Raleigh-Charlotte-Atlanta. And HSR trains that are limited to 79 mph is ridiculous. European and Japanese visitors to the U.S. sometimes expect the Acela to be similar to the HSR where they’re from, and instead they get a much more expensive but only slightly faster version of a normal regional train. (Well, normal by American standards; slow by the standards of most of the rest of the developed world.)
August 19th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
The name high speed rail for such trains is an insult to high speed rail. Such a little renovation to get up to 110 miles is not spectacular in any way and might well make sense between two not so big towns. How are those towns consttructed. Maybe tghey are way more rail Friendly than this extreme car only decentraliced Florida nightmare, especially Orlando.
August 19th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
B.R. to N.O. is a stupid idea. HSR can’t compete with a very short drive and complete schedule flexibility.
Miami to Tampa and Orlando makes tons of sense. Long, incredibly boring drives with intense traffic congestion in Dade and Broward Counties (I imagine Hillsborough and Orange too).
I live in Boston’s South End and its high 90’s WalkScore. I rarely move my car. But, I drive regularly to NYC and back. Why? Cause the Merritt State is fun to drive and I like the schedule flexibility. The Acela is decent, but please, going through CT at 10 mph is nobody’s idea of fun.
August 19th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Jason L said:
Speed limits between Baton Rouge and New Orleans are 55-65mph. Unless several trucks have collided with SEVERAL schoolbuses full of nuns on the 10, you (being a citizen of sound mind and body) hope to be driving at least 79mph anyway. It’s not always a zero-sum game, travel time, but this seems like an intentional and unnecessary handicap.
Unless, of course, the designers plan to allow cops to stop high-speed trains on suspicion of being black.
(Marshall: Humbled by the comparison… thanks!)
August 19th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
We’re talking about connecting the 46th largest metro area in the country to the 67th largest
Since I actually like the idea of a large, national network of HSR lines such that I could get anywhere in the country from anywhere else without having to fly (though obviously slower and at least in the short/medium term more expensive) I am happy to have HSR lines between any two metro areas, even 46th and 67th. And given how much MY loves HSR I would have expected that he would agree. I guess that policy, even his pet policys, are less important to him than trying to score points against Republicans.
August 19th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Finally, why can’t HSR go between Los Angeles and New Orleans, specifically to cater to the important percentage of the American populace that is me?
August 19th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
urgs, New Orleans is very rail friendly! We have a compact street grid, streetcars, and very walkable neighborhoods, especially the tourist centers, where most folks would go anyway.
Stav, it’s not a short drive. It’s pain in the ass congested all the damn time. A very high percentage of people commute between the two cities (Katrina evacs relocated to BR and continued to work in NO, others moved back but their job stayed in BR, etc) and this would be a link to a broader Gulf Coast system. Just because we aren’t New England doesn’t mean we shouldn’t get trains, too.
August 19th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Tell me again why Yglesias wants to send $300 million to Jindal for a bullet train that won’t be built and would be a waste? Say that again, why does Yglesias want to waste $300 million?
Wasn’t it Yglesias’ idea that we send money around for bullet trains that won’t be built. Is there some logic?
August 19th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Someone else mentioned this, but might I remind you that those of us in New Orleans might have a need to GET THE HELL NORTH IN A HURRY that the rest of ya’ll don’t…
August 19th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Also, I gotta say, I love your (Matt) evaluation of this proposal. “According to Google, the trip is an hour and a half.” That’s the extent of your analysis? Really? You need to get out of DC more.
August 19th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
This isn’t High-Speed Rail at all, since it only goes 79 mph, above which you pass through the regulatory hurdles that have stifled rail travel in this country. It’s 300 million, which in the scheme of things is a very small amount of money. I think they’re calling this HSR since it’s in a corridor, and it’s an improvement, and they want federal funds.
August 19th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Re: Miami to Tampa and Orlando makes tons of sense. Long, incredibly boring drives with intense traffic congestion in Dade and Broward Counties
Instead of I-75 take US-27 north past Lake Okechobee. For Tampa you can cut over to Sarasota or Bradenton from somewhere in Highlands County, through Arcadia or Zolfo Springs. 27 is a four lane divided highway with only a very small number of slow-speed towns en route and fairly little traffic, and the drive through the citrus growing country smalls heavenly in flower and fruit season. This is not an argument against HSR in Florida, but an obseravtion from someone who did the very similar St Pete-Ft Lauderdale drive many times.
August 19th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
I am told that Jindal is less idiotic than he usually sounds. But he has to go through a stupidity phase to amount to anything in the Republican party.
August 19th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Could be useful as a rail based evacuation corridor during hurricanes.
August 19th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Fuck, after all they’ve been through, give it to them.
August 19th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
“Also, since when is 79mph “high-speed rail”?”
Seems pretty slow to me. China can do 250mph. Can’t we at least do half that? Obviously, the Chinese are superior to us and we can’t expect to match them. But how about 150mph?
August 19th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Pender and others: The strategic plan (Introduction page 2) says the near-term investment strategy aims to…
August 19th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
79mph=HS????
Only in La.
The only people who think Jindal is smart are the REALLY stupid.
August 19th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Now that I think about it, people are pretty slow in Louisiana, so maybe 79mph is pretty fast there. Hell, your broken down pickup probably can’t go that fast. It can barely make it off your front lawn. I was thinking that the people of Louisiana are as sophisticated as a Chinese rice farmer, but that’s obviously asking too much, isn’t it? And let’s face it, you can’t go over a 100mph because people there can’t understand three digit numbers.
August 19th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
I don’t think that you can dismiss the B.R.-N.O. line as a “wasteful project” just because it doesn’t rank as high as Chicago or Milwaukee in metro population. It’s obviously not on the scale of the California project, but that’s why it’s getting far less money.
Anyway, the idea of linking B.R. and N.O. with high speed rail has been around long before Jindal got onto the scene. It seems kind of ironic that this route, which would be a big economic boom for these wounded cities, is coming under criticism because Jindal is now throwing his hypocritical support behind it. Besides, how can you dismiss a viable high speed evacuation route as being “low down on the list” of being worthy of federal money?
August 19th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
1) Not a great deal of truck traffic between BR and NO. Trucks passing through from west coast to east coast take I-12 between BR and Slidell, bypassing New Orleans.
2) Speed limit is 70 except over the 12 mile bridge just west of New Orleans(which nobody observes). I’ll be doing that tomorrow on cruise control in the right lane. Most everybody will zoom past me on the left.
3) It’s an hour and a half, downtown to downtown.
4) There is hardly anything in between. It’s a really boring drive unless you like looking at swamps and lowland forests.
5) Baton Rouge sucks. Not as bad as Houston. That is all. Also.
August 20th, 2009 at 12:19 am
“Baton Rouge sucks. Not as bad as Houston.”
Houston isn’t as bad as you think. There’s some cool stuff there if you poke around enough. But it takes a lot of poking around. Not like Austin, for sure. But in that area, Beaumont is the real hellhole. It makes Baton Rouge look like Nirvana.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:30 am
To address the much vaunted “hypocrisy” of Jindal condemning TARP HSR funding and then applying for funds: I don’t see a problem, when an idea you think is “bad” becomes a fact, with joining in the subsequent “feeding frenzy.” Federal dollars come from ALL the states, and ALL the states should try to get as much back as possible. Should all the states whose representatives voted “NO” on TARP be automatically denied all funds from it? I doubt anyone would make that argument. So, the “hypocrisy” label makes little sense in the REAL political world most of us live in.
I live in Gary, IN, about 50 miles from Chicago by road. I only travel to Chicago bi-monthly, and I take the train. Aside from the financial sense (gas and parking), it’s simply less stressful. And an awful lot of people “live in one city and work in another” around here. That’s what “commuting” is. And that train is just packed with commuters every day. I have no idea of the logistics of a BR to NO line, but I’d wager it would see plenty of use, if built.
August 20th, 2009 at 2:12 am
“I live in Gary, IN”
Ooh, sorry about that.
August 20th, 2009 at 6:06 am
“Also, since when is 79mph “high-speed rail”?”
I guess America’s definition of high speed rail is analagous to its definition of high speed broadband.
August 20th, 2009 at 7:52 am
[...] Gov. Bobby Jindal’s high-speed rail hypocrisy (ThinkProgress via Yglesias) [...]
August 20th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Don’t do that. I became so-o-o-o-o-o excited that you had written about Hart-Scott-Rodino …
August 20th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Well, if Jindal gets this stimulus money for this project, it shows how wasteful and inefficient the federal government is. As for the need for high speed rail in Florida between Miami, Tampa, Orlando, and Jacksonville, we really need it, however in Orlando, the area leaders have turned it down twice, loosing the money. They are not very visionary here, perhaps because there was no way to grease all the palms that needed greasing to support the plan.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Upgraded rail connections would make it easier for people to get the fuck out of New Orleans without clogging the interstate come the next hurricane.
If I were POTUS I’d give Louisiana an ultimatum: upgrade the rails or the Corps of Engineers starts knocking out the levees.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Someone else mentioned this, but might I remind you that those of us in New Orleans might have a need to GET THE HELL NORTH IN A HURRY that the rest of ya’ll don’t…
And HSR is necessary for this, as opposed to conventional rail service?
August 20th, 2009 at 11:16 am
[...] Bobby Jindal gave earlier this year to a national audience where he mocked high speed rail? Well, now he’s decided he likes it and wants $300 million of gubmint moneys, plz. (Yglesias) [...]
August 20th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Why spend the money connecting New Orleans to anything? Without tens of billions of dollars for flood control the city will most likely be destroyed some time in the next 30 years.
August 21st, 2009 at 2:10 am
Stop being vindictive, Matt. It’s ridiculous. Jindal’s assertion about the Vegas-Disneyland line is pretty much correct; it is wasteful, especially since they were pursuing maglev, the hugest transportation hole you can throw money into.
First, this proposal isn’t high-speed rail, it’s conventional rail – no faster than existing Amtrak services.
Second, it links Baton Rouge to New Orleans, definitely the best choice out of any Southern city when it comes to the urban transit network and the pedestrian environment.
Third, the viability of a rail line has little to do with city populations on either end, and everything to do with current traffic in the corridor, which is very high. I-10 is built largely on long bridges, so adding lanes would be astronomically expensive compared to commuter rail on existing tracks.
August 21st, 2009 at 2:17 am
New Mexico just built a fabulous commuter rail line connecting Albuquerque to Santa Fe. In every regard, this project is comparable to a New Orleans-Baton Rouge rail line. It connects a small capitol city to a larger city. Both links are around 90 miles long. Both were done as substitutes for highway expansion.
But then again, I guess New Mexico’s project wasn’t wasteful because it’s in a blue state. Your hypocrisy is just as bad as Jindal’s. For once, stop complaining when a Republican comes to their senses.
August 23rd, 2009 at 12:28 am
[...] Our Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal is in the middle of national controversy over his administrations requests for federal funds to build a high speed rail link between New Orleans and Baton Rouge. I personally think proposal is a good one, and the numbers should justify the expense. The problem is that the Governor said in his panned response to the President’s State of the Union address in February that stimulus money for rail is a waste. So this week, MSNBC’s Keith Oberman names Jindal as his “Worst Person in the World” for being a hypocrite on the funding issue. Take a look and see what you think. Is Jindal trying to have it both ways? You can also read some of the national commentary by Clicking Here and Clicking Here. [...]
August 24th, 2009 at 12:06 am
If the Baton Rouge – New Orleans line *REPLACED* the existing route of the Sunset Limited from New Orleans to Houston — a route which goes entirely through miniscule towns like New Iberia — it would actually be worthwhile.
However, that would involve getting the cooperation of Union Pacific, which owns the Baton Rouge – Beaumont, TX track. Currently the trains run on the BNSF track from New Orleans to Beaumont. Union Pacific has been quite horrible about passenger trains. In addition, all those tiny towns would complain. Therefore I think it’s likely to be a nonstarter.
August 24th, 2009 at 12:09 am
FYI, there are three existing rail lines which could be used from New Orleans to Baton Rouge: the KCS line, the UP line, and the CN line. The KCS line is the shortest.
However, as I noted, west of Baton Rouge it has to go onto UP track to get to Beaumont.
August 24th, 2009 at 12:13 am
“By the way, Chicago/Milwaukee has LSR already (79 mph Amtrak). There are six round trips daily and an extra early morning RT except Sunday on the Hiawatha service on the CP (Milwaukee) main through Sturtevant. The service is fast and reliable between CUT and Milwaukee Airport station, but is kind of killed by the entry into Milwaukee. It takes 74 minutes to do the 78 miles to the airport with two intermediate stops. Then it takes fifteen minutes to do the final eight miles.”
I believe there is a plan to speed that up. The actual right-of-way is good for faster, but there’s grade crossings and railway junctions and whatnot.