The Significance of the F-22 Debate
Useless against the Deceptacon threat (wikimedia)
Chris Preble had a good post up on the Cato blog yesterday praising Barack Obama’s veto threat over the F-22 issue. I continue to hope that folks will stay engaged with this question, because I think it’s more important than it first appears. I know that a lot of people, both on the progressive left and the libertarian right, would like to see a more ambitious cutback of the American defense posture than what you see in this initial budget proposal. But viewed in that light I think you need to see the issue on the table right now as whether or not the political system can impose any discipline on the military-industrial complex at all. If it can, then bigger change may be possible in the future. If it can’t, then it can’t.
At any rate, Preble is doing a talk at New America on the 24th about his excellent book The Power Problem: How American Military Dominance Makes Us Less Safe, Less Prosperous, and Less Free. It’s worth checking out. There hasn’t historically been much liberal/libertarian collaboration on these kind of questions, but hopefully there will be in the future. Making change happen is really hard and we need as broad a coalition as possible.
34 Responses to “The Significance of the F-22 Debate”
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
It would be easier if the plane wasn’t so cool looking.
I read on another blog some speculation that Obama might accept the F-22 in exchange for a hate crimes bill passing. This sounds totally bizarre to me, so I hope its not true.
July 17th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
The best way to kill a government program is to threaten more progressive income taxes.
The progressives have the problem, they want their own government programs and thus fear to raise taxes on the rich.
July 17th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Somebody remind me, what’s the word for a tax system that raises taxes disproportionately on the rich?
July 17th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
It does look cool.
July 17th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
It’s spelled Decepticon, Matt.
July 17th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Interesting post. This is one of those places where the tendency to organize politics around a single left-right axis is very unhelpful.
July 17th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
There are already a few smaller programs which – at the direction of the Administration – have had stop work orders and significant budget cuts in the last week. But, it’s one thing to shitcan the FCS, and a whole ‘nother thing to reign in the F-22. Weeeeee’ll see.
One wee fly in the ointment is the DoD’s concerns about maintaining an industrial base with which to build stuff. Once an assembly line and subcontractor chain is rolled up and capital redeployed, it’s a bear to put back together. Hence, why the EU goes to the hassle and cost of feeding its own smaller programs.
As the Iranis and Israelis have found out the hard way, you can only really depend on yourself to equip your armed forces.
July 17th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
I don’t see it as a major issue over whether “the political system can impose any discipline on the military-industrial complex at all.” There are at least some fair arguments coming from both sides in Congress on the issue regarding the merits of extending production for another 1-3 years (the fate of the Army’s Future Combat System is a much better post child for programs that consume huge resources over years without ending up producing much of military utility). The importance of this debate is whether Obama is going to hang tough and use the veto or whether he caves into Congress. That’s the couple of billion dollar question.
July 17th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
But they are so cool. When one does a fly over at the air show everybody feels so proud. That’s priceless.
My then two year old niece was traumatized by F14’s doing a low pass at an airshow 3 years ago. I always ask her father, a nominal wingnut, what she would have felt like if they were dropping real bombs. I can say without equivocation that he is incapable of empathy. Whoever it is that gets bombed deserves it. Period. Thought about it is not even possible.
No US fighter plane has been in a fight since the end of the Korean war. They have mostly just dropped stuff on the undefended. N Vietnam had some credible ground to air defense. Iran does too. Very credible as well as some not very credible air fighters. It will have to be knocked out when we and Israel and the Saudis attack them. In fact knocking out their air defense will comprise the bulk of the attack. Such will have long term strategic significance in the region. No F22 needed. But they are so cool.
July 17th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Interesting how many commenters on this site get hard-ons for various high-tech killing machines.
July 17th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
That’s not true. Two Navy F-14s shot down some Libyan jets – MiGs, I think – in the mid-80s. American fighters shot down Iraqi fighters during the first Gulf War.
You make a fine point, but you overstate it.
July 17th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
I read on another blog some speculation that Obama might accept the F-22 in exchange for a hate crimes bill passing. This sounds totally bizarre to me, so I hope its not true.
The bill is attached to the version of the defense spending bill that has the additional F22’s on it. Obama is in real hot water with the LGBT community for not coming through with pledges, so some smart senators attached it to the authorization bill so Obama would have to sign on the F22s to get hate crimes.
The hate crimes bill is only real LGBT related stuff that Obama can get right now since ENDA has just been introduced in the house and he isn’t touching gay marriage or Don’t Ask Don’t Tell with a ten foot pole.
Now that’s a “progressive” for you.
July 17th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Did you know that, in just three days, we will be 1/16 of the way through Barack Obama’s presidency? That’s right, one-sixteenth. 6.25%.
If this is the time that has passed since his inauguration:
**
Then this is the time left during his presidency:
******************************
So, to sum up, his presidency is clearly a failure.
July 17th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
No US fighter plane has been in a fight since the end of the Korean war.
I guess American pilots were just making these all up:
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_243.shtml
Or how about the 39 air-to-air kills made during the first gulf war? Need I go on?
July 17th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Maybe he means “plane” as opposed to “jet.”
July 17th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Joe: What, are we supposed to give Future Barack Obama credit for fulfilling the campaign promises that Present Barack Obama hasn’t even made noises about fulfilling? Or is this more of a, “How can you say Obama doesn’t care about gay rights just because he’s put it dead last of all of his priorities?” type of argument?
July 17th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Have I given him any credit, tomemos? Have I suggested such a thing?
I haven’t made an argument about drawing conclusions about the success of Obama’s presidency. I’ve refuted one. Don’t start assigning arguments to me, merely because they’re the polar opposite of your own.
Once again, we are somewhat less than one sixteenth of the way through his presidency. Holding forth on what priority you think he has assigned to any issue at this point is absurd.
July 17th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
As I recall, those F-22’s kicked Megatron’s ass, although Starscream probably could have stopped them if he wanted too.
July 17th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Put the hate crimes bill, as well as ending DADT
in the defense appropriation bill with the forbidden
extra F-22’s, and see heads explode on both sides of
the aisle.
July 17th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
About 200 North Vietnamese and 76 aircraft were shot down during air combat between 1964 and 1973. On a personal note, the old man got a fs radar lock a few times, but didn’t shoot anything down.
July 17th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
76 US aircraft… damn, I’m channeling for Matt.
July 17th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
@18: But it is even more dubious why we had those F-22s in the Transformers alternate universe, b/c as we all know, Israel doesn’t exist, and presumably there is no Middle East problem…
July 17th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
At least people are now forgetting the Vietnam war 34 years after it ended. Couldn’t have happened 10 years ago.
July 17th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
[...] is fundamentally what the F-22 debate is all about. Barack Obama and Robert Gates are trying to bring an end to years of magical thinking about [...]
July 17th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Personality-wise, I can’t see Barack Obama issuing a veto threat, especially one this important, if he didn’t intend to go through with it if called.
I also can’t see him shooting off his mouth without thinking it through.
Still, though: the DoD appropriations bill. The mind boggles.
July 17th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Personality-wise, I can’t see Barack Obama issuing a veto threat, especially one this important, if he didn’t intend to go through with it if called.
Why? It’s not like he’s as tough as the Arizona Cardinals.
July 17th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
He’s risk-averse for one thing. He wouldn’t set himself up to take the hit of threatening and then backing down.
Second, he’s a fastidious chess-player type. He sees a few moves head. I don’t think anything it going to sneak up on him.
C) He doesn’t panic, or start flailing around to DO SOMETHING when the press turns up the heat on him.
July 17th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
C) He doesn’t panic, or start flailing around to DO SOMETHING when the press turns up the heat on him.
To me it seems press conference about health care was a little like what you describe above. I hope not. But on the other hand Congress needs a swift kick in the behind on that.
July 17th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
He pushed the same message, calmly and effectively, that he’s been pushing since he took office.
I’m talking about “I’m suspending my campaign! No I’m not!” type of thing.
July 17th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
yah it is really cool. why is it a problem to note how cool it looks while acknowledging it’s probably not a good way to spend money?
Did I say how cool it looks?
July 17th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
The F-22 Call Girl.
July 17th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
At least people are now forgetting the Vietnam war 34 years after it ended.
[Hurley] There’s no such thing? [/Hurley]
July 18th, 2009 at 7:59 am
Perhaps Obama will accept more useless F-22’s in exchange for Joe Lieberman’s (I-Hartford) cooperation on healthcare.
July 18th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
He pushed the same message, calmly and effectively, that he’s been pushing since he took office.
I’m talking about “I’m suspending my campaign! No I’m not!” type of thing
Oh. We’re probably using different terms to me that’s “complete meltdown” type stuff.