Matthew Yglesias » Lakers Sign Ron Artest

Jul 2nd, 2009 at 9:17 pm

Lakers Sign Ron Artest

Looks like the LA Lakers are going to sign Ron Artest, and let Trevor Ariza walk in free agency. Like Kevin Pelton, I’m pretty skeptical that swap improves the team even before you take into consideration that fact that Ariza is considerably younger and less crazy. Ariza is a more efficient scorer than Artest, and I don’t think it makes much sense to say that the Lakers needed another shot creator.

I find the move especially puzzling since LA seems to have a much clearer need at point guard.

Comments
56

56 Responses to “Lakers Sign Ron Artest”

Frankie d Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:34 pm
You’ve got to be kidding?
Ariza can’t carry artest’s jock. They are on two different levels.
Crazy Ron-Ron is in that class of NBA players just below the Kobes and LeBrons: a great player who can turn a game around by himself.
Ariza, on the other hand is a nice player who had a very good stretch in his contract year.
Forget all those nice little stats from Hollinger; just watch the two of them play.
Artest is a true beast and LA is now a lock to repeat, absent injury.
Is Ron-Ron crazy as a loon? Of course.
Might he just do a jimmy piersall at any moment. Yea…could happen.
But he is a truly unique player who impacts a game like few players can.
And this is from a Pistons an who watched his Auburn Palace Meltdown live and in living color when it happened. I’m only sorry the Pistons never had the cojones to take a chance on him.
C Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:45 pm
The Artest signing was because Ariza asked for too much money. They offered Ron the same amount that Ariza turned down.

I agree that Ariza was more efficient inside the Lakers offense than Artest was on the Rockets’. But what the stats miss is that the Lakers can now use any one of 5 players to abuse the smallest guy on the other team in the low block, and at the same time, give up nothing on defense.
Graydon Gordian Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Artest is the more talented player but still the move does not make sense for the Lakers.

The triangle offense requires quick, subtle ball movement. When the ball touches Artest’s hands, it sticks. He is a decent passer, but his lack of ball-handling ability and comparatively slow decision making don’t fit the system.

That being said, they signed him for the mid-level exception, which is well below his value. If a guy of his talent says he is willing to play for 5.6 or so a year, you take him.

Also, part of me wonders whether this is, in an indirect way, a response to the Shaq-to-Cleveland trade. By that I mean, maybe Buss and Jackson assumed they’ll be seeing Lebron in the finals next year and wanted to pick up the perimeter defender who had the best success against him this last season.
scythia Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Ariza to Cleveland. He’s exactly what they need.

(and yes I know, Blazers blah blah blah….)
Darone Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Scythia,

You got that wrong, its Ariza to the Rockets with him just swapping places with Artest. I am happier that he didn’t go to the Cavs though.

Graydon,

I think it was a matter of the Lakers not wanting to be left without the one player that could replace Ariza’s production. Kobe always wanted to play with Ron, and with Ariza’s agent moaning about the mid-level exception the Lakers were smart to jump on a player that shoots 3s much better than Ariza, allows them to sit both Pau and Kobe for stretches and is a much better passer which is key in the triangle. Also, as to crazy Ron, the Lakers have strong personalities with Phil, Kobe and Fischer and also Artest’s childhood friend in Odom if we resign him. I think that this could be a great move.
right Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:44 pm
This is about defense, period. Artest will guard Carmelo, Jefferson, and Lebron, Pierce, or Carter (whomever they see), and free up Kobe to focus on offense.

The age disparity is a concern, but the Lakers want to win again next year, and Artest is still clearly a better player than Ariza*.

*assuming he doesn’t go bonkers again of course.
Jake Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Agreed, it’s about D. I love Matt’s hoops posts, but, man, is he hung up on shooting efficiency.
ferd Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Has anybody written a computer program to automatically calculate optimal player trades to staff a team against opposing team and player data? Sort of a Deep Blue manager program?
howard Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:16 pm
right, i’m with you: i think this is a move about next year’s playoffs and repeating, and i think it improves the chances of same (much to my chagrin).
Chris Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:11 am
Matt is exactly right. Artest is a mediocre offensive player who scores because he shoots a lot. This is why he’s only been an all-star one season, even though he’s so great defensively. His shot selection is poor because he has an inflated opinion of his skills. He shot more than Yao this season in fewer games, and Yao (55% from the field, 86% from the line) is the most efficient scorer in the game. Artest in fact had the lowest shooting percentage of anyone in Houston’s rotation after Alston was treated.

The only reason to think the Lakers know what they are doing is because they have confidence that Phil Jackson can control Artest and keep him understanding he is only a role player on offense, not a focal point. Phil did it with Rodman when Rodman wasn’t just eccentric, he had developed a drinking problem.

The off-the-record remarks that Laker officials are making here in Socal tonight raise this exact point. Plus the idea that Artest is the only guy strong enough and quick enough to cover Lebron one on one in the 2010 NBA Finals, if that match-up happens.

Which it won’t. Shaq couldn’t cover the pick-and-roll well six years ago. The pick-and-roll is so crucial in the playoffs. He will be a defensive liability, mark my words.
howard Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:35 am
chris, surely you aren’t suggesting there was ever a time in rodman’s career where he thought he was more than a role player on offense?
Chris Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:12 am
No, sorry, just meant to say that Phil thinks he can control Artest given his experience with Kobe.
Chris Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:13 am
LOL. Given his experience with Rodman, I meant.

On the other hand, Kobe too! Pre-2008 Kobe.
Max424 Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:13 am
This is slightly off the wall, but I don’t think Kobe liked Ariza. It is just a gut feeling I have, based on a couple of strange post game comments Kobe made in reference to Ariza. Almost like Kobe felt Ariza was capable of stealing some of his spotlight from time to time, which is a definite no no in Kobe-land.

Either way, we know what happens if Kobe does, in fact, take a dislike to you….see ya!
cedichou Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:38 am
They offered Ariza the mid-level exemption that Artest accepted. Ariza turned it down, only to take it from Houston. So it’s not like the Lakers really had a choice: they were losing their wing, they needed another one, and Artest is as good as it gets on the free agent market. The choice is not between which one is more efficient, but having a decent starting guy there. Ariza was gone.

I kinda hope they lose Odom, and settle for ‘Sheed, that would be a combustible team.
kid destroyer Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:40 am
I think the other thing that Artest brings is intensity. That’s what they were lacking through most of the playoffs, and that’s what he always brings.

Plus, he’s crazy, and every team needs a crazy.
Mr. Six Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:41 am
I think it’s primarily a balance between economics and production. Ariza is getting a 6-year deal from the Rockets. The Lakers are only going to pay Artest for 3 years. I don’t think the Lakers wanted to make that long of a commitment to Ariza. Ron-Ron might be less efficient and not quite as good a fit in the triangle as Ariza, but he’ll be better on defense and off the books sooner, which means LA has more flexibility.

It’s also interest that Ron-Ron has probably been paid less than he’s worth for most of his career.
Colatina Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 4:02 am
Yes there is some chance this could blow up in their faces, but Artest is one of the best second-tier players in the league. One of the strongest players in the league physically, best defenders and a guy with proven scoring ability who can hit the three. People are right to compare this to Rodman with Phil Jackson and the Bulls. Artest will probably be awesome in LA.

Ariza had a fine playoffs, but the Lakers were right not to get worked up about him. As a Laker-hater I find their good basketball sense very frustrating. They’ll probably also do what it takes to take care of Odom, since they realize how valuable he is.

cedichou: “They offered Ariza the mid-level exemption that Artest accepted. Ariza turned it down, only to take it from Houston.”

Not from reports I’ve read. They were willing to offer the mid-level but they wanted him to get offers from other teams first before they made an actual offer. They had Artest in mind from the beginning. Ariza was rejected by LA, not the other way around.
nbt Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 4:49 am
Yeah, the Lakers chose to spurn Ariza and target Artest. Sucks for Trev.

Why shouldn’t we expect that the Lakers of 2009-10 will be a soap opera like the Lakers of 2003-04?
Turnaround Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 5:37 am
Since-Jerry-West Laker fan here, and I ain’t happy about this at all.

Artest is too stupid to learn the triangle, and his ego is going to have a hard time swallowing itself to let him play a role. He’s thinkin’ he’s gonna audition for a Jack Nicholson crazy loon role every night.

As to playing better defense, Ariza made two game-changing steals late in the playoffs–without which Dwight would now wear a ring and people would still be saying Kobe can’t win without Shaq.

Lakers should have sweetened Ariza’s deal. Though I’m surprised Ariza left for the delta. He went to UCLA. This is home by now, I must think. He won a ring a few weeks ago, as a rising star on a team with a chance to repeat.

And without Yao, nobody’s getting a ring soon in Houston.

Which is probably another reason why Artest left…

Dr. Buss and Mitch, I do wish you guys had ponied up! Trevor was key.
Steko Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 5:38 am
“Ariza is a more efficient scorer than Artest, and I don’t think it makes much sense to say that the Lakers needed another shot creator.”

Put those trees back in the forest Matt. If they wanted more offense they would have signed Ron Artest’s boy Mike Chafley from Queensbridge.
mpowell Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 6:20 am
I find it really hard to imagine that Artest will be creating problems for the Lakers offensively. He’s at best the 3rd option on offense and most of the time he sees the basketball it will be for an open 3. And career-wise he has been a much better 3 point shooter than Ariza. Possession efficiency is a very good metric for evaluating a player’s contribution, but not really for comparing players in much different roles between squads. Maybe there is some fundamental reason why Artest cannot score as efficiently as Ariza, but he is a better 3pt shooter and free throw shooter. To me, that suggests that when not forced to create his own shot, he has the potential to be just as effective as Ariza, if not more so.

With Ariza, you have to take his career 3 point shooting percentage at face value. Basically, even when wide open, he should not be shooting threes. That’s pretty terrible. The Lakers won a championship in large part because Ariza had a very lucky 3 pt shooting run in the playoffs. You sign Ariza to a 5 year deal for more than the veteran’s exception.. that’s a huge commitment to a player who had little more than one good playoff run. Ariza was the 6th leading scorer for the Lakers in the regular season and the 4th in the playoffs. To me that looks like a player who benefited hugely from the other guys around him and should be easily replaceable. No reason to risk the team’s financial future on such a minor role player. And as solid as Ariza is defensively, I’d much rather take Artest’s defense for the next 3 years. Long term, Ariza doesn’t even come close to being a legitimate building block for the post-Kobe peak Laker years.

All in all, this was a great trade for the Lakers. I just hope they can resign Odom without breaking the bank. The key with him is to not go too long term, I think.
Client #11 Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 7:07 am
Artest is the worse player because individual defense isn’t measurable….therefore it doesn’t exist!

TS% uber alles!
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 7:25 am
“i think this is a move about next year’s playoffs and repeating, and i think it improves the chances of same”

Agreed. I thought the Lakers were the third best team in this year’s playoffs, and basically stole a title. Artest gives them a decent shot (if the tricky process of working him in can be managed) of really being the best team in the playoffs next year.

—–

Far more interestingly, Bubbachuck ain’t going out like that.

Iverson has started tweeting:

For those of you who thought that I was done, Think Again!

Just when I thought I was out, League Pass drags me back in…
mpowell Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 7:36 am
24: I know you have a love affair with AI and he was a great player at his peak, you’ll get no argument from me, but he is probably the prototypical example of a player who has trouble translating reduced usage to higher efficiency offense. And his size limits his defensive value. It makes it much harder for him to bring substantial value to a squad as he declines into NBA old age.
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 8:20 am
“he is probably the prototypical example of a player who has trouble translating reduced usage to higher efficiency offense”

Agreed. Which is why I was thinking he wasn’t coming back.

Unlike Artest, he can’t hang out on the perimeter and be a 3pt shooting role player. He needs a team to actually put the ball in his hands to be useful. Which means he’ll have a very limited number of potential suitors next year, if he wants to play on a good team.

Prior to the latest round of bad news on Yao’s health, I was expecting him to end up in Houston, where they need efficient shot creation and are title contenders. But maybe Houston is still the likely destination, even without Yao.

Assuming he doesn’t want to do a nostalgia show with LB in Charlotte, I think there are probably 3 to 5 teams that make real sense.

- Houston
- Atlanta (if Bibby doesn’t re-sign)
- Boston

After that, it starts getting difficult. I’d love to see him on San Antonio, since I think Popovich would know exactly how to use him, but I can’t imagine how he’d work in a backcourt with Tony Parker. He’d be a perfect fit on Orlando, but they seem too emotionally invested in Jameer to even consider it. He’d also be a perfect fit on Portland, but he doesn’t seem to fit the culture they’re trying to market.

A 34yo tiny guard who needs the ball in his hands and is on the verge of falling off the cliff is a hard fit.

“And his size limits his defensive value. It makes it much harder for him to bring substantial value to a squad as he declines into NBA old age.”

No doubt. His window is closing rapidly, but I think he still has another year or so of being able to be the catalyst on an elite offense. Last year was a disaster for him in many ways, but teams were still having to send three defenders at him to stop him.

Physically, I think he can still score at 55% TS% while also creating lots and lots of high percentage shots for the other four guys on the floor with him. And dude’s basketball IQ has gotten higher and higher as he ages.
Frankie d Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 9:30 am
Not sure what AI games you saw but I watched almost every pistons game AI played last year & I never saw any team run 3 guys at AI and for the most part he was easily defended with a single defender.
Why would you triple team a guy shooting .41% who can’t consistently hit an outside shot? They often encouraged him to shoot because he shot so poorly from the outside. The only time he ever saw more than one defender was when he drove and got into the lane and even then he showed that he was no longer a real threat as he has lost his elite-level athleticism and can’t really hurt teams as he could in the past.
Nothing more useless – and pitiful-looking – than a little gunner who is no longer fast or quick enough to get his shots off.
He’s nothing more than a circus sideshow now and may go the way of latrell sprewell.
What a cancer…
If he had half the brains of Artest he just might be of use to a team.
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 9:54 am
“Not sure what AI games you saw but I watched almost every pistons game AI played last year”

You got me. Unlike you, I didn’t see “almost every pistons game AI played last year”

I watched every minute of every game AI played for the Pistons last year, as well as the three he played for the Nuggets. League Pass, a DVR, and a serious case of fandom, baby.

“for the most part he was easily defended with a single defender.”

For the most part, Curry played Iverson off the ball, a situation where he is basically useless. Played off the ball, Iverson is less useful than an average NBA player.

But there were a couple of multi-game stretches during the season when Curry did put the ball in Iverson’s hands. And opposing teams were still doing the traditional “wall off” to keep Iverson from going strong side to weak side and getting a wide-open 10ft bunny. That kind of defense is tasking three players with obstructing Iverson, and thus opens up the rest of the team for high percentage opportunities, should a coach have the triple-digit IQ necessary to give them the appropriate roles and responsibilities.

It was a sad and disastrous season. As they say in Motown, MCIAFI.
mpowell Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 9:57 am
27: I didn’t watch much of AI last season, so I can’t say for sure, but my guess is that you’re more or less correct.

What a cancer…

This is the part I don’t understand. AI’s game was very effective when he was an elite athelete. And it’s not like he chose it. He’s a small guy who was never an elite jump shooter. What else could he do? But I never saw any indication that he was ever doing anything but trying to help his team win, so I can’t imagine why people would describe him as a cancer. Get past your prejudices. The man gave more effort and sacrificed more of himself over his career than 90% of NBA atheletes.
mpowell Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 9:59 am
28: I missed this in posting. I think the question with these zone doubles, or whatever, is, how much is the defense really giving up to do this? I think it can be a tough judgement call sometimes. As I said, I didn’t watch the games, though.
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 10:38 am
“I think the question with these zone doubles, or whatever, is, how much is the defense really giving up to do this?”

They’re leaving offensive players uncovered when they do this.

Iverson’s got wonderful court vision at his height because he is one of few players who can do a jump-pass successfully at a high enough rate. He finds the uncovered player and gets him the ball.

The moment when Iverson moves strong side to weak side, the defensive help being sent means the rest of the offense is playing 4 on 2 1/2. That’s the moment the offense needs to be keyed around. Put Iverson on a team like Houston with a coach like Adelman, and Battier and Ariza will find themselves with a significantly higher number of wide open 3’s per game than otherwise. Landry will find himself with the ball under the rim before the defense gets there a significantly higher number of times per game. Scola will find wide open 12ft shots a significantly higher number of times per game. And so on.

If you look it up, you’ll note how every single player who played meaningful games for the Nuggets in both ‘07-’08 and ‘08-’09 – Carmelo, J.R. Smith, K-Mart, Kleiza, and poor Anthony Carter – had their TS% drop by a significant amount in ‘08-’09. The amount of attention Iverson was receiving when he had a live dribble consistently got them higher percentage shots in ‘07-’08.

Carmelo .568 to .532
J.R. Smith .603 to .576
K-Mart .553 to .523
Kleiza .585 to .552
Carter .531 to .490

See a pattern?
mpowell Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 10:48 am
31: I can see the pattern. That’s pretty decent evidence. I guess we’ll see what happens to him this season. I’m a lot less concerned though since I don’t think it’s likely to have much impact on who the title favorite is next season.
CitizenE Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 10:58 am
Kobe is the permanent 2. The Laker frontline is relentless–now they have Bynum, Gasol, Odom, and Artest. The Artest thing is reminiscent of Rodman in Chicago; however, it also does seem to indicate that they may be having problems getting Odom signed.

Insofar as Ariza is concerned, he is not, nor will be the player that Artest is. He is an athletic swing man, of which there are many, however talented he may be. The Lakers could easily find someone to play that role for considerably less dough.

Artest is a special and unique player, but he has his limits, and we’ll see how this works in terms of chemistry in Los Angeles (which is not Chicago, where Rodman played for Jackson).

No doubt, however, this worked out better for Artest than Ariza, who could have been part of a multi-year championship run in the same town he played college ball. Beyond salary, there were, as such, a lot of economic opportunities that would have come Ariza’s way, which are unlikely in Houston.
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 11:18 am
“No doubt, however, this worked out better for Artest than Ariza, who could have been part of a multi-year championship run in the same town he played college ball. Beyond salary, there were, as such, a lot of economic opportunities that would have come Ariza’s way, which are unlikely in Houston.”

The fascinating part is that Ariza apparently left serious guaranteed money on the table to go to Houston.

The Raptors are under the cap and thus can offer more than the MLE. According to Ariza’s agent, Toronto offered $10m more than the Rockets and Lakers, and Ariza just decided he wanted to go play for Adelman and Morey anyway.
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 11:30 am
“I’m a lot less concerned though since I don’t think it’s likely to have much impact on who the title favorite is next season.”

That’s actually why the next move in the Bubbachuck saga is so fascinating.

He’s already banked a quarter of a billion dollars in his career. If he’s willing to play for the veteran’s minimum, he can possibly inject himself into the title race next year, potentially in a decisive way.

He’s perfect for Boston, and conceivable for Orlando and San Antonio. Hell, before the Artest signing, I thought Phil Jackson could conceivably have taken a flyer on him given the low downside.

And maybe Yao can actually play next year. (I really do think the Rockets are the natural fit.)

Maybe Iverson has other objectives. And maybe no team in reach is willing to take the gamble. But we’ll know by Halloween.

Everything I’ve seen indicates he has at least a little bit of gas left in the tank.
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 11:57 am
“All in all, this was a great trade for the Lakers.”

Agreed.

“The Lakers won a championship in large part because Ariza had a very lucky 3 pt shooting run in the playoffs.”

You guys won in large part because both Ariza and Odom decided to start knocking down the wide open 3.

And I found Odom doing so a lot more surprising.

One of the immutable laws of the NBA is that Lamar can’t shoot from the mid-range or outside. It’s why he’s not a superstar.

Dude’s a career 31% 3pt shooter. Best year of his ten year career, he hit 37%. And he went and hit 51% during this year’s playoffs. I didn’t see that coming.
MBunge Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:01 pm
“He’s perfect for Boston”

That’s so true. Put the ball in AI’s hands on a second unit of House, Big Baby, Sheed and Scal and you’ve got a pretty decent defensive team that’d be perfectly happy to stand around waiting to shoot jumpers off AI’s penetration. Heck, if Boston could sub in Grant Hill for Scal they’d have a second team that could probably be the 6th or 7th seed in the East.

Mike
mpowell Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:16 pm
36: The playoffs are a low sample size. As much as Ariza and Odom hitting 3s went, good for the Lakers. But Gasol could have done more offensively if that wasn’t happening (or any number of other things could have gone their way). I wasn’t surprised that the Lakers beat Orlando (or any of their opponents) and although there were specific aspects of their team performance that were unexpected, you also expect to see some statistical outliers in a short series. So I usually don’t think its reasonable to take the winning team and say: oh, they just got lucky with this one performance metric and wouldn’t have won otherwise. It’s a phenomenon related to the winner’s curse in bidding. Usually the team that wins a series will have done something really well that they couldn’t expect to repeat on a regular basis.

But the other side of that is that you don’t overpay someone based on their unlikely performance. That’s why I think Ariza is replaceable (who thought he was any good before this season?). I’d rather see them keep Odom, though. I think the only limitation there is Jerry Buss’ pocket book. The Lakers aren’t getting under the cap any time soon and I doubt Odom is seriously entertaining long contract offers (would anyone be so foolish??!!), so I expect this is just a question of how much tax Buss pays over the next 3-4 year period. Any rumors on what Odom is hearing from other teams at the moment?
Frankie d Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Petey must have been having flashbacks if he thought he saw defenders “sending” 3 men at iverson – which is what he wrote originally.
It just didn’t happen. Teams were far, far less concerned with AI than they have been in the past and never, ever distorted their defenses in an attempt to guard him.
I have no idea when you think you saw. Teams gearing their defense by walling off a side for AI?…it just didn’t happen. Not when he played with Detroit.
Did they play him like any other player and keep an eye on him if he dribbled, looking for a lane?
Of course, but teams, at least most competent defensive teams do that to any decent player who is known to penetrate.
And the idea that AI could jump and then pass effectively is laughable. Whenever he would get caught in that position – which was relatively often, considering the fact that no competent NBA player should ever be caught in that position – a turnover was extremely likely. I mean, I coached grade-schoolers and that was one of the first things we taught them.
Your obsession with AI is odd, but certainly your bizness, but making up stuff in order to show that I’m wrong becomes my bizness.
AI was who he was last year: a selfish ballhog who ultimately quit on his team.
Quit on his team because he didn’t want to come off the bench!
How much of a little spoiled biotch do you have to be to do that?
My guess is that the Iverson of Georgetown days – who I admired greatly – and his coach, John Thompson, would have been embarassed to watch the kind of player he has become.
And all of the interesting little numbers you cite can’t obscure what everyone saw with their own two eyes.
Its like you’re offering that old standbye of cheating spouses: who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes.
Johnny Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:40 pm
For the people saying Artest is too stupid to run the triangle, well please become more knowledgeable about his history.

Artest ran the triangle his first two seasons in the league with Chicago.

Plus the Lakers don’t run it as much anymore. Its pretty much a 60/40 split, with 60 being run and gun, and 40 being triangle.
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:41 pm
“So I usually don’t think its reasonable to take the winning team and say: oh, they just got lucky with this one performance metric and wouldn’t have won otherwise.”

Agreed.

I think the Lakers were the third best team in the playoffs, but I think they went out and took the title. Luck lands where it lands, but the Lakers earned the title.

And it’s reasonable to expect more wide open 3’s for the Lakers’ role players in the playoffs. Kobe is going to be expending more energy in the playoffs, and the dude is a phenomenal shot creator. My point was that it didn’t surprise me to see Ariza able to knock down those wide open playoff shots, but it did surprise me to see Lamar able to take advantage of the opportunity from behind the arc.
Brent Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:06 pm
I think the first question to ask is why LA (allegedly) pretty much kicked Ariza out of town after he was instrumental in bringing the trophy back to town? Or was it some unspoken agreement that Artest would be stepping right in?

As for whether Artest is an upgrade over Ariza? Eh, on paper it’s impossible to make that case. Ariza is a better rebounder and more efficient scorer. I suppose Ariza’s miracle 3-point shooting in the playoffs could’ve been a fluke, but you’re kind of asking for similarly out-of-character performance from Artest when you’re hoping his poor shot selection and ball-movement-stoppingness will suddenly vanish. Yes, Artest is a better defender, but Ariza is much younger. We’ll see if Ariza continues to improve, but I don’t think we’re far away from seeing Artest, a player who relies a ton on athleticism and quickness, start to decline.

Having said all that, Artest for the mid-level is still a value. And having said that, Ariza for the mid-level long-term is an enormous value. But as a Cavs fan, f*ck both of you! I mean, I’m just assuming the lack of warm weather and perhaps a non-guaranteed starting position had some effect on both players turning down the same goddamn mid-level offer from C-town.

Although it could be worse. I could be a Toronto fan. Ouch.
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:10 pm
“Any rumors on what Odom is hearing from other teams at the moment?”

Hoopshype is where to get your rumormongering.

My vague guess is that teams won’t get serious about Odom offers until the Hedo domino falls.

And yes, this will all come down to how much tax Buss is willing to pay.
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:14 pm
“But as a Cavs fan, f*ck both of you!”

If I were a Cavs fan, I’d be confused as to why Roscoe is spurning you. He’s reportedly considering every contending team except Cleveland. And all spring, I’d figured him as a sure bet to go to you guys.

It’s looking more and more like you’ve got some Kleiza in your future.
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:21 pm
“As for whether Artest is an upgrade over Ariza? Eh, on paper it’s impossible to make that case.”

I don’t know about “on paper”, but on the court Artest is a no-brainer upgrade over Ariza.

The Lakers will try and likely succeed in getting Artest to buy into Ariza’s role on the offense end, where he’ll be a minor but very real upgrade. And Artest will provide a real boost on the defensive end that plays out in such a way that’ll leave Kobe more energy to expend on offense.
Jimm Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:39 pm
This is a great move for us. Bottom line, Ron is the guy you want to cover Bron, to cover Paul. Those two guys gave us fits, between Kobe, Lamar and Trevor, we really didn’t have an answer. Now, we have a guy to throw on those two guys, when it matters most, allowing Kobe and Lamar to focus on team defense. I can’t understate the brilliance of this move, even though I like Ariza and would have taken him over Artest for the same money. Ron knows Lamar forever, and respects Kobe, loves Phil, we won’t have a problem with him.
frankiie d Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:53 pm
ariza is the classic case of a guy having a good stretch while he’s making a run for a new contract.
happens all the time.
now, it rarely happens when that player is on the biggest stage – the nba finals – but the dynamic is the same.
talented, but erratic player finally plays in the fashion that has been envisioned for him for years.
he proves his worth, and voila, gets that nice, juicy contract, and then he returns to his erratic play.
one of the better examples of exactly this situation is rasheed wallace back in ‘04.
sheed was indispensable to detroit’s title run.
not so coincidentally, he was in the last year of his contract and, whatdoyaknow…
after detroit wins the title – with a huge assist from sheed – he gets his nice, fat payday and then he returns to his typically erratic ways.
now, sheed is a much more talented player, imho, and he certainly has accomplished more, but he was essentially in the same position as ariza, but detroit ended up playing it in exactly the opposite way as LA.
detroit also faced the choice between their erratic, though essential player and another talented player who played the same position.
but detroit jettisoned mehmet okur because they decided that sheed was worth keeping around. okur was a free agent, they could not sign both and their decision was to gamble on sheed.
at the time, i wanted them to keep okur and dump sheed. my thinking was that they had gotten the best that they could get from sheed, and that they would be better off taking that one title, saying thanks sheed and letting him go off to seek his fortune elsewhere.
the odds that sheed was going to perform in that fashion for the rest of his 5 year contract was pretty low. on the other hand, the probability that okur was going to develop into an excellent big man with another decade in front of him, was pretty high.
LA’s in a little different position. Artest is the older player. But I’d be extemely wary of giving a guy like Ariza a big contract, as the odds of him returning to his up-and-down, erratic play is pretty high. And if you keep him and pay him, you’re stuck with a guy you will ultimately need to dump.
Brent Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:58 pm
If I were a Cavs fan, I’d be confused as to why Roscoe is spurning you. He’s reportedly considering every contending team except Cleveland. And all spring, I’d figured him as a sure bet to go to you guys.

It’s looking more and more like you’ve got some Kleiza in your future.

My TV this morning told me the Cavs aren’t pursuing Roscoe, which might explain why he’s not considering them. I suppose if you’re more worried about crucial playoff situations than the regular season, Mr. Meltdown probably isn’t the best option. I can’t get too upset about that one.

The Lakers will try and likely succeed in getting Artest to buy into Ariza’s role on the offense end, where he’ll be a minor but very real upgrade. And Artest will provide a real boost on the defensive end that plays out in such a way that’ll leave Kobe more energy to expend on offense.

Just like we don’t have any concrete evidence to support the claim that Ariza’s playoff 3PT shooting will continue, we also just don’t know if this claim about Artest offensively will actually happen. My gut feeling is that inefficiency is a very tough thing to solve.

Yes, Phil Jackson’s wizardry helped keep Rodman from going off the deep end long enough to rack up a few more rings, but this required no drastic changes to Rodman’s on-court style. He was always the same player. And there was nothing wrong with that. I’m just skeptical that things are ever this dynamic.
Brent Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 2:04 pm
ariza is the classic case of a guy having a good stretch while he’s making a run for a new contract.

I’ll call bullshit on this one. First of all, all the stats guys loved Ariza way before the latter stage of this past season. Second, his major improvement down the stretch was 3pt shooting, which, unlike rebounding or points scored or whatever, is really hard to just flip the switch for. Third, it appears Ariza left a lot of dough on the table, which would imply his contract year success may not have been entirely greed-oriented.

I think contract year bonus performances do happen sometimes, but I also think 24-year-olds who haven’t played a ton of minutes in the league yet also tend to show improvement over time.
Petey Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 2:26 pm
“I suppose if you’re more worried about crucial playoff situations than the regular season, Mr. Meltdown probably isn’t the best option. I can’t get too upset about that one.”

Roscoe blew an important play against the Spurs, but he’d still be a nice piece to have. For next year, at least, I’d rather have him than Kleiza, were I the Cavs. (Though Kleiza would be a nice consolation prize.)

It’d be a nice luxury to have a guy who can defend either Dwight Howard or Rashard Lewis.
frankie d Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 2:26 pm
brent,

i never said his accomplishments were “greed-oriented”.
i don’t believe that, necessarily.
i just think that some guys concentrate more, lock in more and therefore play better when they know the money is on the line.
some guys choke under that kind of pressure. other guys lock in and excell.
it doesn’t have to be a result of greed.
in fact, shooting is probably the one skill that benefits from more concentration on the part of the shooter.
erratic shooters, as ariza typically is, have erratic mechanics. for whatever reason, ariza concentrated, got his mechanics almost perfect for that short period, and performed as folks have always imagined he could.
i’ve followed him since he was a knick and have waited for him to blow up like this. it finally happened. not coincidentally, imho, right when he needed it the most.
that doesnt mean he’s greedy, just that he responded well to pressure.
Matthew Yglesias » Hollinger Makes the Case for Artest Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 2:29 pm
[...] expressed some doubts as to whether exchanging Trevor Ariza for Ron Artest really makes the Lakers better. John Hollinger [...]
frankie d Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 2:36 pm
“it appears Ariza left a lot of dough on the table, which would imply his contract year success may not have been entirely greed-oriented.”
no, it appears that leaving dough on the table was a matter of petulance, bad negotiating and poor representation.
i’d fire my agents if i was ariza.
somehow, someway they let things get out of hand, after ariza clearly let it be known that he wanted to stay in LA.
obviously, the principal, or player in these situations, bears ultimate responsibility, but anytime negotiations blow up in this fashion, and the player ends up in a worse situation, the agent typically bears some blame.
somehow, someway, ariza getting PO’ed about LA’s approach should have never been one of those things that impacts at all.
LA was the place for him, and he should have done what he needed to do to stay there. and it should have been his agent’s first job to convince him of that fact.
frankie d Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 2:46 pm
there was genuine bad blood between sheed and the cleveland franchise.
when detroit owned cleveland, it was largely because sheed punked them out on a regular basis.
cleveland fans have never forgotten the time sheed opened up big z’s dome with a vicious whack.
sheed would be a great fit for cleveland, but i would be surprised if the franchise could ever get past the past.
kind a like detroit never seriously considering artest, despite the fact that they’ve needed a guy like him for years.
mpowell Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 4:22 pm
49: Ariza’s TS% took a huge step up when he moved to Orlando from the Knicks. It’s nice to have a role player who can take advantage of other team’s attention on your true stars, but no need to get too excited about it. This is something the stat guys are always missing. And, remember, they were excited about it when he was a throw away in a trade. Yeah, that’s value. This is a whole different level now.

There is no reason to think a hot 20 game run changes the expectation for his career 3p%
Turnaround Says:
July 4th, 2009 at 2:25 am
@#40 For the people saying Artest is too stupid to run the triangle, well please become more knowledgeable about his history.

Artest ran the triangle his first two seasons in the league with Chicago.

No one said Artest never “ran the triangle” before. I said he was too stupid to learn it.

He was too stupid in Chicago, and he’s too stupid now.

In 2000/2001, Artest led the Bulls to the worst record in the NBA (15 – 67).

Why?

Too stupid to learn the triangle.

Matt Yglesias

Lakers Sign Ron Artest

56 Responses to “Lakers Sign Ron Artest”

Blogroll