Jul 8th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Endgame
Had a good time at the Campus Progress annual conference this afternoon:
— No G8 agreement on climate change.
— Women, health insurance, and marriage.
— Arizona State Senator thinks the world is 6,000 years old.
— 32 flavors of freedom.
— I’ve been wondering if I should find a way to do online chats.
— Expect a lower salary cap for the 2010-2011 NBA season.
Song of the day, Wale’s “Chillin”
59 Responses to “Endgame”
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Who wishes America white as can be?
Wackjob Birthpants!
Thinks brown folk are here illegitimately?
Wackjob Birthpants!
If nativist bullshit is your daily bread
Wackojb Birthpants!
You must be a fan of 24AHead!
Wackjob Birthpants! Wackjob Birthpants! Wackjob… Birthpants! Haha!
July 8th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
- Good to see that Ezra Klein has run out of material and is forced to go meta.
- Isn’t the Earth being only 6000 years old a core religious belief among tens or hundreds of millions of people?
- Paging Dave Weigel! Wikipedia, Snopes, and Obama himself can’t get their story straight on which hospital he was born in.
- Today’s alternative SOTD is “Never Going to Give You Up” by Rick Astley.
July 8th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
“Isn’t the Earth being only 6000 years old a core religious belief among tens or hundreds of millions of people?”
If it is, then those religions are WRONG. The science is very much settled on this issue. We may argue about whether the earth is 4.2 billion or 4.5 billion years old, but no credible geologist would say it’s even under a billion years old. So, if that’s a core belief, time for a new religion.
July 8th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
First, the childish ditty in the first comment isn’t accurate; whether that’s actionable is something I’d need to discuss with someone more familiar with relevant laws. One of these days I’m going to get around to looking into whether small claims will take such cases or whether I need to go to big boys court.
I note also that the same person used to weave Dave Weigel into his comments. Then, a few days ago I left a comment at WashingtonIndependent pointing out to Weigel that someone was making him look bad. Now, oddly enough, the last two comments from the same person haven’t included reference to Weigel. Odd, that.
As for the third comment, I’ll leave a discussion to philosophers (like MattY), but it’s not as cut-and-dried as the comment seems to think.
July 8th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
All non-partisans know that Al Gore is a big fat poopyhead.
July 8th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
A live chat would be good, but a lively engagement with your loyal commenters would be just as useful, and wouldn’t require any extra infrastructure. Look at Ta-Nehisi Coates’s blog! Talking with the commentariat is a win for everyone.
July 8th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
First, the childish ditty in the first comment isn’t accurate; whether that’s actionable is something I’d need to discuss with someone more familiar with relevant laws.
Do you think you scare anyone with this bullshit?
July 8th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
“but it’s not as cut-and-dried as the comment seems to think.”
Yes it is. The Young Earthers have yet to come up with an alternative theory of nuclear decay that can also explain why a nuclear reactor works. They’ve had more than fifty years to do so, and have produced nothing. And it has nothing to do with philosophy. It has to do with science and actual verifiable data. If you think this is just some philosophical conflict, then you don’t know a damn thing about science.
July 8th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
“One of these days I’m going to get around to looking into whether small claims will take such cases or whether I need to go to big boys court.”
24ICan’tWinAnArgumentSoI’llSueDotCom, I’ll give you a hint, libel cases are damn near impossible to win. If they were easy, Obama would have sued your ass a long time ago.
July 8th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Re Matthew’s comment “I’ve been wondering if I should find a way to do online chats.”
—————-
I’m not sure that I want Matthew interrupting my discussions with the other commenters here.
Maybe he should just watch for a month or two before he tries to enter the discussion. After all, our blog here has its own unique protocols and rules.
July 8th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
“I’m not sure that I want Matthew interrupting my discussions with the other commenters here.”
Unsurprisingly, Don Williams has an extremely misguided view of what’s going on in these comments.
July 8th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
“As for the third comment, I’ll leave a discussion to philosophers (like MattY), but it’s not as cut-and-dried as the comment seems to think.”
Interestingly, the age of the earth is a scientific question, not a “philosophical” one. It is also as “cut-and-dried” as questions can get.
I really would love to see Matt post an Endgame with “Children should not be sacrificed to Satan,” just to get 24Ahead to disagree. Hey, that’s a cherished religious belief for thousands of people!
July 8th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
The Young Earthers have yet to come up with an alternative theory of nuclear decay that can also explain why a nuclear reactor works.
What, Jeebus Power isn’t enough of an explanation?
July 8th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
I wonder if Ross Douthat thinks this woman embodies our “democratic ideals.”
July 8th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Finding a young-earth creationist state senator is borderline nutpicking, especially as there’s probably not a shortage of governors, U.S. representatives, and senators who believe the same (I know I’ve seen such a belief attributed to Mike Pence).
July 8th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
The funny thing is that her creationism is beside the point. Even if she were right about the age of the Earth, her argument would still be stupid – nobody is worried about the Earth going away, it’s us that we’re worried about.
July 8th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
I’m also sure Senator Allen is far from alone among elected officials in believing the Earth is young–or at least claiming to believe it when talking to the right audiences. In that sense, the only notable thing is that she screwed up and stated it in the wrong context.
July 8th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Actually, the notable thing is she wants to mine the very same element whose rate of decay helps us know that the Earth is about a million times older than what Allen thinks it is.
July 8th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
On chats–yes.
July 8th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Regarding Ta-Nehisi Coates, I was banned there after I pointed out how he was wrong; I haven’t tried to see if I’ve been un-banned. Obviously, he’s not interested in chats that make him look bad.
Also, I forgot to mention that Julian Sanchez deleted a couple comments I left at his site.
As for fostert, he’s not right. But, even if he is right I’d know who’s behind the lies. As for BHO suing me, he’s free to since I’ve never lied about him.
In fact, I’ve got a corrections thread linked from every page. It’s been up there for six weeks and so far no requests have come in. If you spot something I need to correct, and – unlike fostert you can provide a valid argument – feel free to leave a comment.
July 8th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
In fact, I’ve got a corrections thread linked from every page. It’s been up there for six weeks and so far no requests have come in. If you spot something I need to correct, and – unlike fostert you can provide a valid argument – feel free to leave a comment.
Well, there are two explanations why no requests have come in. One is that you haven’t said anything that should be corrected. The other is that you’re a batshit insane raving lunatic and nobody on this board wants to click on your blog. Who can say? A certain metaphor about pig-wrestling does come to mind though.
July 8th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
As for the state senator, that’s really not that big of a deal. I think something like 25% of the country believes the earth to be 6000 years old (including everyone in my family), more than enough to have their representation. I’m sure she’s far from the only one.
Fostert: It’s pointless to try to argue it with them. Any scientific evidence to the contrary has been planted by Satan to test our faith. Yes, that’s their serious response. That or “God works in mysterious ways.” When your belief system starts with the absolute certainty that the entirety of the Bible is the literal, unerrant word of God, there’s not exactly room for changing one’s mind.
July 8th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Arizona State Senator thinks the world is 6,000 years old.
This is news? Doesn’t a substantial percentage of the population believe this?
July 8th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
I think the chat idea is interesting. However, IMO you should use a service that gives you the power to kick a user quickly, and limits the size of a comment. It’ll get old fast if one of the habitual cut-and-pasters jams 5K into the dialog with 5 key strokes.
The AZ senator isn’t unusual. They’re unpaid, and part time, so the legislature tends to attract some odd birds. I was still in Tucson when a Phoenix rep introduced a bill to rescind the Gadsden Purchase. I was all for it, on the possibility we could have cut loose from Phoenix metro and put a couple more Democratic senators in DC.
July 8th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Re: I really would love to see Matt post an Endgame with “Children should not be sacrificed to Satan,” just to get 24Ahead to disagree. Hey, that’s a cherished religious belief for thousands of people!
Actually, many of today’s liberal hipsters deny that there were ever any cultures which sacrificed children to Molech or other demons. Just so much Orientalist propaganda about the Other, don’t you know. All cultures and religions are equal. Free to be you and me. The reams of testimony from both Jews and Romans about the barbarity of the Carthaginian savages are dismissed without a second look.
Truly, today’s society is characterized by political correctness run amock, and by the suicide both of the intellect and the moral sense. A society that begins by denying that the Phoenician barbarians butchered children on the altar of Molech, will end by celebrating the butchery of children on the altar of Judith Jarvis Thomsen.
July 8th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
whether that’s actionable is something I’d need to discuss with someone more familiar with relevant laws. One of these days I’m going to get around to looking into whether small claims will take such cases or whether I need to go to big boys court
WHAA HAHAHAHAH AHHAHA HAHHAHAHAH HAHHAHAHAHAHHA HA HA HA HA!!!!
July 8th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Is it accurate that you’re a cab driver in San Diego named “Kelly?”
July 8th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
I just want to say thanks for the Wale joint.
July 8th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
He’d have to prove that somehow a comment damaged his reputation. I really don’t see how his reputation could be damaged. Any potential defendant could produce quite a lengthy list of people who would swear to having no respect whatsoever for 24etc from the moment they knew of his existance.
July 8th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Njorl isn’t quite accurate. And, win or lose, I’d still get to find out who’s posting things like the childish ditty. Obviously, whoever wrote the ditty above doesn’t want others to know they have the issues that would cause them to write such a thing. Otherwise, why not write it under their own name? With a lawsuit – whether I would win or lose – they’d be held accountable for their words. And, it looks like I’m going to have to do something, doesn’t it?
Also, the issue here isn’t one of “24ICan’tWinAnArgumentSoI’llSueDotCom”. That applies to whoever’s smearing me, not to me. The reason for such smears is that they’re unable to present a valid logical argument against anything I’ve written.
July 8th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
Are you seriously threatening to sue people for making fun of you? What are you, eight years old?
Here’s an idea: If you don’t like people saying mean things about you, DON’T TROLL.
July 8th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Otherwise, why not write it under their own name?
Is “24AheadDotCom” your own name? You’re just pissed because you couldn’t troll in the first post. What a whiner.
July 8th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Regarding the belief the the Earth is 6,000 years old.
I have read the entire Bible and I seemed to have missed that part.If anyone can tell me which chapter it is in I would appreciate it.But i have seriouse doubts that anyone can find it because I do not think that this belief is found in the Bible. This is also the case for many fundementalist beliefs.
Many Christians disagree over how long it took God to create the Earth.Some say it took literaly 6 24 hour days .And others[ like myself] think that the 6 days refer to 6 periods of time and that the Earth is really 4.5 billion years old like almost all scientist believe.
But I think very few Christians actually believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Even most creationists do not believe this.
You can also believe that God created the Earth and still believe in evolution.
The reason that I think that people feel that this “young earth” belief is so widespread is that it is so crazy that it draws a lot of attention.
Once again there is a huge difference between believing that God created the Earth and believing that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
And for the record , when people are confronted by pollsters who ask ” Is the Book of Genisis literally true?” they are usally only allowed to say “yes” or ” no”.This does not really allow them to express the fact that most Christians have very complex and diverse feelings toward the idea of the Bible being “literally true ” . In a yes or no question , no subtleties are allowed.
I am not asking anyone here to convert to or to even respect the Christian faith.I would just ask people to not believe that one state senator speaks for millions of Christians.
Thank you for reading my opinion and best regards to all of the commenters here, no matter what their religiouse beliefs are.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:11 am
The reason that I think that people feel that this “young earth” belief is so widespread is that it is so crazy that it draws a lot of attention.
No, it is because surveys show that there are a lot of idiots out there, especially in America, who believe this crap. It’s not an assumption that the belief is widespread; it’s backed up by the data.
Also, the issue here isn’t one of “24ICan’tWinAnArgumentSoI’llSueDotCom”. That applies to whoever’s smearing me, not to me. The reason for such smears is that they’re unable to present a valid logical argument against anything I’ve written.
This is sort of like Palin’s argument that doing her job would be the quitter’s way out, so quitting is the opposite of the worthless path of apathy.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:13 am
I have read the entire Bible and I seemed to have missed that part.If anyone can tell me which chapter it is in I would appreciate it.
It’s in all of it. To be less obtuse, it’s from James Ussher’s chronology, based upon counting back all the genealogical “X begat Y” entries to Adam and taking account of known errors, such as the one that means Jesus couldn’t have been born after 4 B.C. As the Stephen Jay Gould quote notes, Ussher doesn’t really deserve ridicule, given the tools, sources and knowledge at his disposal. In 1650. When most scholars agreed upon it being 6,000 years, give or take a few. And no-one had dug up a dinosaur, or worked out the significance of rock strata.
The irony here is that once the first people who can properly be called paleontologists and geologists made it clear that the earth was vastly older, plenty of ordained ministers started digging for fossils and rocks in order to advance scientific knowledge — even though geological time makes their heads spin as much as it does ours.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:19 am
Look, Matt is not a hipster. Not even close. I live in LA and they’re fracking everywhere, and Matt isn’t one of them. And that’s a good thing.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:27 am
On Young Earth Creationism:
“As of 2008 a Gallup poll indicated that 50% of US adults agreed with the statement “human beings developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life.” Whereas 44% of US adults agreed with the statement “God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.”[26]”
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_earth
OT: Are there other blogs like this? I like the mix of topics as well as the commenters here.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:01 am
I think live chats would be fun, if you had the infrastructure to weed out trolls, and some general topics to get things started. I’d really like to see a conversation on the future of great power conflict.
What do Ezra and the post do to keep the conversation interesting and civil?
Would you be willing to talk about philosophy at all?
I’d love to know what you think about Putnam’s accusation against Rorty that his cultural relativism is actually cultural imperialism. I’d also like to know what you think of certain criticisms of utilitarianism (mostly: is it better if we take joy in other people’s pain, because there will be more joy in the world).
July 9th, 2009 at 2:16 am
Rorty’s cultural relativism is incoherent. Paul Boghossian’s _Fear of Knowledge_ has some good criticism of it.
If you’re a hedonistic rule utlitarian, yes, better to take pleasure in others’ pain than not to do so, other things being equal.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:17 am
Er, ‘act utilitarian’
July 9th, 2009 at 2:19 am
OT: Are there other blogs like this? I like the mix of topics as well as the commenters here.
Check out Ta-Nehisi Coates at The Atlantic.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:24 am
Thanks for that, Anthony.
July 9th, 2009 at 4:39 am
“As for fostert, he’s not right. But, even if he is right I’d know who’s behind the lies.”
I never claimed to be right. As for you knowing who’s really behind the lies, no, you wouldn’t and don’t. I know who really lies, but it can’t be told. I know what happened the last time I tried to say something. But there was a problem. It’s best to have your bones aligned how they are. When they are different, they don’t work as well. As for who might have done that, I cannot even say what country that was. I’ll give you a guess, it’s not India.
July 9th, 2009 at 5:08 am
Understand, I can accept the gun pointed to my head as a reasonable start to the conversation. I’m less keen on the light slit at my throat to draw blood. Either way, I’ve been able to talk my way out of it. You can’t get rid of me that easily. What’s amazing is that it really is that easy. Anyone can do it. It’s the emotional things that trip people up. That “I’m going to spread this guy’s brains all over the place” thing that makes people get queasy, even the shooter. That’s why nobody has killed me yet. Three guns to the head, and they’re speaking three languages, and I’m still alive. Want to try again? This time I’ll be armed.
July 9th, 2009 at 5:49 am
“makes people get queasy, even the shooter.”
Except for snipers. They like the good shot. And they don’t think about it. It’s a target, and maybe there will be some cool red spray off it. If there isn’t, you hit him dead on. It’s amazing what you might hit if you have the time and patience. And who knows where a bullet might land? Funny thing about that. How something might be so predictable and unpredictable at the same time. And predictably so. Seems anything can happen.
July 9th, 2009 at 6:28 am
Re: Whereas 44% of US adults agreed with the statement “God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.”[26]”
Not a good survey question since it really asks two differenet things (did God create humans and when this happened) and subordinates the latter to the former.
A much better question to test for this belief would be “The Earth is approximately 6000 years old, True or False?”.
In my experience Creationism, in various guises, is fairly common, but very few people fit in the Young Earth camp.
July 9th, 2009 at 6:41 am
“Seems anything can happen.”
Like an accidental gunshot though the medulla oblangata and a guy falling off a seven story building with his hands tied behind his back. And, Oh look! There’s a policeman running down the stairs, so he’s here to help us, right? It’s better to run away at that point, but if you have to talk to him, ask him for some heroin. He’s got it, and really doesn’t want you to talk about that guy on the roof. He might let you go if he’s got something on you. So take the heroin. If you don’t, he’ll just shoot you anyway. But like everyone, he really doesn’t want to shoot you. He’ll let you get away when he always has something on you. But it’s better than dead. Or maybe not. Their methods of killing people are quite inventive and specifically defined for the person in question. What’s your worst fear? They already know. That’s how you’ll die. Who’s they? You really don’t want to know. Wherever you might be, it’s the same organization. Here’s a hint: buy your chopsticks and shut up. Even the Russians are scared of these people.
July 9th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Regarding comment # 35 by Pseudonymous
Thank you for the link .But I must respectfully point out that what it said was that various people “interpetated ” information from the Bible to figure out how old Earth is.I must point out that as the link pointed out , Figuring out the proper lengths of time in the Bible really is impossible.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that “Earth is X amount of years old”.
Unfourtantly people have always interitated the Bible to use it for their own ends.In this case though I think that people like Bede had good motives .But ironically they were interpitating the Bible and drawing their own conclusions .Which is kind of ironic if you think about it.After all , the “young Earthers ” like to believe that they are believers in the “literal truth” of the Bible.
Thank you again for the link Pseudonymous.
July 9th, 2009 at 7:43 am
Regarding comment # 46 by JonF
I would agree with your point MR JonF. Too often during religous debates Christians are put in the position of having to answer yes or no questions.If the one answer makes it sound that they do not believe in God they will choose the other answer.
It is very hard to explain ones complex religious beliefs in the words “yes ” or ” no”.
Best regards to you MR JonF.
July 9th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Regarding comment # 37 by ThE LORAX and comment # 41 by MR Anthony
For once MR Anthony and I are in agreement . MR Ta -Nehisi Coates does write a very good blog at The Atlantic monthly website and has a very good comments section. Andrew Sullivan also writes an extremly good blog as well. But he does not have a comments section unfourtantly.
Best regards to The Lorax and MR Anthony
By the way judging from the times of some of these posts ,some people seem to have had worst insominia than I did last night.I hope we all sleep better tonight.
July 9th, 2009 at 8:18 am
The practice of reading the Bible as something other than literal truth began in earnest with St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430). He thought it a scandal for Christians to read the Bible literally when it lead to something that contradicted the plain evidence of the eyes. Pagans etc could see that rabbits (or whatever) don’t chew their cud would mock Christians who said otherwise. Reason and the evidence of the senses, IOW, had primacy over Revelation as tools to understand God.
July 9th, 2009 at 8:41 am
“And, win or lose, I’d still get to find out who’s posting things like the childish ditty.”
Please pay an upfront fee to your lawyers. Because you know we don’t have enough lawyers. The perfect society is one where half the people are lawyers and the other half are their wives right? No need to make anything, right? But it’s pretty simple: you will lose. We really do have a right to denigrate you. And you have a right to shut the fuck up. We can also shut up, but we won’t because we don’t have to. You have a right to say what you want, including the malicious attacks on Obama. You also have a right to shut up. Exercise the latter, and we’ll forget about you. Exercise the former, and we’ll denigrate you. It’s your choice. But if you want to get the courts involved, you’ll spend a lot of money to get laughed out of court. So please do it. You’ll lose enough money that you won’t have the money to put you nonsense online. Go for it, baby! I’ve got a lawyer lined up against you already. Unlike you, he already knows the issues, and he wants to be a judge. He’d love to win a First Amendment case. Want to give it a try? He works for free because he only wants the publicity. But I’m sure you can come up with some lawyer like that.
July 9th, 2009 at 9:13 am
I don’t normally like jazz music, but that Wale track is pretty good.
July 9th, 2009 at 10:08 am
— I’ve been wondering if I should find a way to do online chats
Or you could just participate in and especially moderate your comment section. This could be are very interesting forum, except all the good comments are drowned out by trolls and crazy people.
Regarding Ta-Nehisi Coates, I was banned there after I pointed out how he was wrong; I haven’t tried to see if I’ve been un-banned. Obviously, he’s not interested in chats that make him look bad
The comments section an Ta-Nehisi Coates are excellent*, a big reason is because he does things like ban trolls that aren’t interested in talking about the actual post.
*except for the fact that he changed to threaded comments, for they are truly the devils work.
July 9th, 2009 at 10:19 am
The Young Earthers have yet to come up with an alternative theory of nuclear decay that can also explain why a nuclear reactor works. They’ve had more than fifty years to do so, and have produced nothing.
The explanation I’ve seen Young Earthers give is that the rate of decay was faster and/or slower in the past (it’s a variation of the argument some Young Earthers use to explain the apparent age of starlight). I’ll emphasize I’m not saying that’s correct, but rather that’s the argument they make.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
the most compulsive read of the week:
July 9th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
As a matter of general interest, just what the hell is a “hipster?” I thought the term went down out of use back in the 70s. Who still uses it? Is someone out there still calling people “beatniks” and “zoot-suiters?”
July 9th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
IANAL, but to my experience, if someone intended to file a civil action against a John Doe commenter, the POCs at TP and their ISP would hear about it before we would. And, we wouldn’t first read about it here in any case.
I think an actual lawyer (#26) about hit the nail on the head.
July 9th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
The irony here is that once the first people who can properly be called paleontologists and geologists made it clear that the earth was vastly older, plenty of ordained ministers started digging for fossils and rocks in order to advance scientific knowledge — even though geological time makes their heads spin as much as it does ours.
This is a point that needs to be made regularly in these discussions. “Young Earth” is not a Christian belief, it is a biblical literalist belief held by certain fundamentalist Christian sects. As J. Davis points out, the notion that the bible could be read “literally” was considered ridiculous 1700 years ago and only became fashionable after the Reformation when quasi-illiterates started reading it and feeling equal to their intellectual betters. The mainline Christian churches, despite regular spasms of reaction, have generally supported humanism, rationalism, and science.