Dwight Howard’s Limits and Dwight Howard’s Potential
There’s some strange anti-Dwight Howard sentiments expressed in Bill Simmons’ latest chat with one commenter deeming him “overrated” ad Simmons dismissing him as “Ben Wallace with a jump hook.” But name me a team that wouldn’t trade their starting center for Howard? You can’t, because he’s the best center in the league. Which is about where people have him rated.
Indeed, Simmons’ critical assessment is a bit odd. In his prime, Wallace was an excellent basketball player. A player who’s “like Ben Wallace” but a somewhat better free throw shooter who also has an effective offensive move would be a player who’s even better than an excellent player from past seasons. That’s a good thing.
It’s true that Howard doesn’t have the greatest array of low post moves. But the right way to think about that is that he’s a guy who’s averaging 20 points per game on a 0.600 TS% even though his low post moves aren’t very impressive. And he’s 23 years old, which means he’ll almost certainly get better.
93 Responses to “Dwight Howard’s Limits and Dwight Howard’s Potential”
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May 17th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
I also personally read the phrase “Ben Wallace with a hook shot” as very high praise.
May 17th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
I think the problem is expectations. Obviously Simmons is using some hyperbole, but I buy into his larger point that Dwight should be better. If you watch him in the post against Perkins with the expectation that he’s the “best center in the league,” it’s hard not to be disappointed when he takes two steps to his right and throws the ball as hard as he can against the back of the rim.
May 17th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
I like the paradoxical statement that
Dwight Howard is becoming the most overrated player in the league, and everyone is starting to realize it.
May 17th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Matt, take Simmons’ PoV with a grain of salt. Like Greeny and Golic, he’s paid to talk. And if he states the obvious (Howard is awesome sauce, and only getting better) he doesn’t get nearly as much attention as being more critical (as evidenced by this blogpost).
Having played college hoops at the highest level I personally don’t take any non former players opinion of talent, scheming, potential and general analysis seriously. But that’s just me
k1
May 17th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
I think someone said that without his freakish athleticism, Howard would be an average center. Does anyone know how Howard compares to other great centers when they were his age? I don’t remember Shaq being this raw-he had some nice moves and footwork early in his career. Olajuwon?
If Howard ever gets half the arsenal that Al Jefferson has already developed, he’ll be pretty much unstoppable.
May 17th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
What does that even mean? Without the freakish athleticism, Michael Jordan would have been an average guard.
May 17th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
@K1: I guess I get where you’re coming from, K1. I played college football at a D-I school.
But you seem to maintain a pretty high bar for opinion-makers. I mean, Rockets GM Daryl Morey didn’t play ball anywhere at a high level. But would you trust his evaluation of basketball talent?
And flip that: would you rather have Morey or Michael Jordan running your team’s personnel staff?
May 17th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Howard should be better than he is. He has developed almost no offensive game despite being in association for 5 years. His offense comes almost entirely on dunks, either from offensive boards or because he gets the ball really close. If the other team can deny deep post position, he is nearly helpless.
The problem isn’t that he isn’t the best C in the league, he is. The problem is that he should be amongst the very best players in the league, which seemed like it had become true before the postseason but is now in serious doubt.
We shouldn’t be happy because Howard has become Ben Wallace with some offensive game. We should be extremely disappointed. Dwight should be more than that at this point in his career.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Also, a 60% TS% isn’t particularly impressive for a C. Greg Oden has a 59.9% TS%.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
People noting expectations at play are right. He’s a v. good center. But he’s not Shaq, he’s not Hakeem, and, as a scorer, he’s not even Ewing. He might dominate the position every night, but he won’t dominate the league.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Matt, Simmons is an utter fool.
An entertaining fool, but a fool nonetheless. And, in fact, I would argue that if I weren’t a diehard Bosox fan, he would be much less palatable.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
He’s an excellent player with flaws, as you noted. I doubt he’ll improve as you think, Matt, he’s had five years in the league, and by then a guy has already shown he can make those kinds of changes, or he can’t.
I’d take him in a second, and so would Doc Rivers.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Obviously, anyone in the NBA is a great athlete. However, as others have pointed out, Howard really hasn’t developed low-post moves, a decent jumper, or a consistent ability to pass out of double-teams. He gets by (and then some) on his ridiculous strength and explosive leaping ability. If he had the body of Joel Pryzbilla or Mehmet Okur, he’d be a scrub. But my aunt doesn’t have balls and Howard is a stud, so he’s a dominant player with the potential to be an all-time great.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
“There’s some strange anti-Dwight Howard sentiments expressed in Bill Simmons’ latest chat”
Dude is a Celtics fan. He’s not purporting to give unbiased opinion on the Celtics’ opponents.
—–
I assume Boston is going to win a squeaker tonight.
But if Orlando wins, I look for Rafer Alston to be a hero. He’s been a weak link for them late in games, but the guy has shown he can sometimes perform at a high level. If he can knock down a few open shots in the fourth quarter, Orlando’s chances will get a lot brighter.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
From the Simmons 2004 draft diary:
“The Magic are on the clock with the first pick. If they’re smart, they take Emeka Okafor. If they’re dumb, they take Howard. It’s that simple.”
Yeah, this guy clearly knows what he’s talking about.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Blackink-
Good point. Let me qualify. I mean the off the cuff analysis from part time analyzers (Greeny, Golic, Simmons, ESPN et al – these are the guys expected to know a little abouut a lot of sports) and then also people on this board. Who while opinionated may not know how to judge backdoor cuts, jumpshooting ability and ball handling skill the way I would.
Exhibit A: Matt’s last Rocket blog saw many people talk about how they would take Battier over Iverson because he brings more…seriously someone actually said that.
k1
May 17th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Dean Oliver, basketball stats guru, created a graph which marks offensive efficiency as the player receives more possessions.
I would love to see that graph on Howard. I think Simmons is wrong. Orlando’s guards are throwing up shots at the end of games, which has nothing to do with how Howard plays at the end of games.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Chris D Says:
May 17th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
From the Simmons 2004 draft diary:
“The Magic are on the clock with the first pick. If they’re smart, they take Emeka Okafor. If they’re dumb, they take Howard. It’s that simple.”
Yeah, this guy clearly knows what he’s talking about.
Anyone with less than a 100% track record is a moron!
May 17th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
“From the Simmons 2004 draft diary: “The Magic are on the clock with the first pick. If they’re smart, they take Emeka Okafor. If they’re dumb, they take Howard. It’s that simple.” Yeah, this guy clearly knows what he’s talking about.”
Well, he got that one wrong, but he got Durant over Oden correct in the ‘07 draft…
May 17th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
I assume Boston is going to win a squeaker tonight.
Nope.
But if Orlando wins, I look for Rafer Alston to be a hero.
Nope. He just has to not be the goat. It’s sort of amazing that the Celts have made it such a series.
Matt’s last Rocket blog saw many people talk about how they would take Battier over Iverson because he brings more
I didn’t see that discussion. But as of today? Who wouldn’t? It’s not that Battier brings more so much as he takes away less. Saw this today:
May 17th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
K1 – Ok. I can dig that. And yeah, that’s pretty silly. Even Battier’s mom wouldn’t take him over Iverson.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
The power forward and center position have melded in the NBA over the last decade or two.
Guys like Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Gasol, Amare Stoudemire, and Tim Duncan all spend major minutes at the center position. Often, they play center at one end and power forward at the other.
Twenty years ago, most power forwards were defensive stoppers and offensive scrappers; bigs that looked to set picks and grab offensive rebounds. That seems to be the role that many if not most of the centers in the league assume in this modern era.
So I think the argument should center on who is the best “big” in the NBA. Do you like Howard over Nowitzki? Over Stoudemire or Gasol?
If anything, it makes the question a little more interesting.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
“I didn’t see that discussion”
Here ya go. It’s at the end of the thread.
“Saw this today: The 33-year-old superstar whose game was built on speed had lost a step. Team officials detected it early in training camp. A.I. had difficulty keeping pace with journeymen such as Mateen Cleaves.”
Iverson came into camp out of shape this year. That’s why Denver did the deal.
He didn’t really get into shape until mid-November.
—–
“(Alston) just has to not be the goat. It’s sort of amazing that the Celts have made it such a series.”
The Celtics minus KG are still a good team. And the Magic minus Jameer are not a dominating team. Boston has been outplayed this series, and their vets have been crafty enough to be in a position to close it out at home.
As to “not goat” vs “hero”:
The Celtics are leaving Alston open late in games. He must knock down some of those fourth quarter shots for the Magic to win a close game. And if he does that, it’ll make him a hero.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
So I think the argument should center on who is the best “big” in the NBA. Do you like Howard over Nowitzki? Over Stoudemire or Gasol?
Don’t you think everyone would take Howard over any of them? His biggest contribution is probably anchoring the defense. As I recall, the Magic were second or third in the league by some defensive metric, and this is a team that starts Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
“Even Battier’s mom wouldn’t take him over Iverson.”
I’m Iverson biggest fan, and as stated in that thread, I might well take Battier over Iverson. Depends on the rest of my roster.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
howard is the latest example of the nba’s marketing regime.
he is a decent off-ball defender, but he is a very mediocre on-ball defender. he maintains horrible balance when he has to guard someone in the post.
he is an excellent shotblocker who benefits from the nba’s reluctance to foul out its stars, so he routinely fouls people who come into the lane, but hardly ever gets called for those fouls.
(yao ming is another example of this tendency.)
he flails and maims, at will, but never gets called for most of his transgressions.
in fact, he’s seriously injured at least four players this year with “errant” elbows.
offensively, “ben wallace with a hook shot” is very accurate.
and i’m a longtime pistons fan, so that is not necessarily damning, just accurate.
it the refs called a legitimate game on him, he would play 15 minutes a game. or have to level off his aggressiveness and effectiveness. instead, he’s like a toddler indulging in tantrums, as he tromps around the court doing whatever he darn well pleases.
to this viewer he always reminds me of a water buffalo in the middle of a crowd, as he thrashes around the lane.
sure, any fan would love to have him on their team. especially if the refs are going to give him license to foul and maim as he sees fit.
(the no-flagrant foul call in the philly series was the latest example of the see-no-evil approach they take towards howard.)
but the idea that he is considered the “best” big man in the league today shows what a sorry state the league is in. he is, at best, a work in progress.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Anyone with less than a 100% track record is a moron!
It’s not so much the fact that he got it wrong as the way he presented it with an air of complete metaphysical certitude, as if it were a total no-brainer. You’d think that someone with a track record as abysmal as his would display a bit more humility.
Nope. He just has to not be the goat. It’s sort of amazing that the Celts have made it such a series.
Not really. Orlando’s three-point shooting has been comically bad the entire postseason. Honestly, though, after watching game 6, I can’t help but conclude that this is just two bald men fighting over a comb. Regardless of who wins, the Eastern Conference finals are going to be ugly.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Petey, you make a good point. I didn’t see the previous discussion so I didn’t know the context. But I’m thinking, if there’s a draft and I have my choice of players in their prime, there’s little doubt that I’m going with Iverson.
Maybe in Iverson’s current condition and with his skills so evidently deteriorating, you might be right. But I’d still be inclined to go with Iverson.
That said, I’m a native of Houston and a lifelong Rockets fan … I appreciate Battier’s service. I like having him on the team and few people make Kobe work harder for his points.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
“That said, I’m a native of Houston and a lifelong Rockets fan”
The whole thing started because I noted in that thread that I think Houston is the most likely destination for Iverson next year. So hopefully, we’ll be rooting for the same team.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
The power forward and center position have melded in the NBA over the last decade or two.
This seems like the most important point, which really makes longer historical comparisons meaningless, and even makes cross-league comparisons problematic.
May 17th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Is Howard the best center in the NBA today? Perhaps. Yao isn’t bad, either, and is much better on the offensive end. Howard is certainly the best center in the Eastern Conference.
But for those of us starting to grow longer in the tooth, Howard would rate fairly low compared to centers of the past twenty years. Behind Olajawon, Robinson, and Ewing, of course, not to mention Shaq, Moses Malone, Kareem, etc.
What is baffling is that Howard has such great physical gifts, and yet is without the catalog of low post moves we’ve come to expect from post players.
May 17th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Really? I imagine they’d have to find some sucker to take T-mac’s contract, but maybe the Clippers or Grizzlies could help.
I think it’d be cool if Iverson signed with Charlotte-I actually think it would be a good fit. Iverson at PG, Raja Bell at SG, Diaw and Wallace interchangeable at Sf & PF, and Okafor at C, and Larry Brown trying not to get an ulcer. That’s a playoff team.
May 17th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
I just want to add that Howard’s rebounding numbers are inflated. This never gets brought up, but one of the reasons he is able to put up so many huge rebounding nights is because there is literally no one else on the Magic that rebounds at a meaningful rate. Great rebounder, but there is no way he would have all those 20 board nights on a team like Boston or Cleveland.
May 17th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
As a Celtics fan, I try to tell myself they looked awful in the first two rounds last year, and still won the NBA championship. But I don’t see how they could stop the Cavs without KG playing defense.
As for the Magic, they reportedly match up well against Cleveland. But really, it’s not just that their shooting has been poor. Their point guard play is practically non-existent. And their late-game collapses are becoming epic.
I could easily see the Cavs sweeping either of these teams.
May 17th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Howard’s defense is a lot overrated because most of his blocks are the dramatic blocks that go into the stands…and gives the ball back to the opposing team.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
[...] View post: Dwight Howard’s Limits and Dwight Howard’s Potential [...]
May 17th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Howard has no legitimate post game, as you’ve said. He is also not going to go “off” if you defend him well, in the physical manner of good defenders like Perkins of the Celtics – I’m not sure if it’s possible to lock him down completely, but you can certainly control his scoring to no more than 20 a game from garbage put-backs, quick alley-oops, or just a sheer type of grunt work to get into the lane and get fouled. Meanwhile the defense can key in on the less athletically-gifted perimeter scorers on the Magic like Turkoglu and Lewis.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Blackink-
Exhibit B (just for fun): Go back and look at the last Rockets blog with all of the people on this board talking about how Brooks was like Chris Paul (seriously 2 good games and this guy is in class with D.Will and Paul according to this board).
Like I said Brooks, et al would struggle because they are by nature role players. And role players can spark you once in a while or even get on a role but it wouldn’t last…and sure enough all of the players this board was loving (Hayes, Landra, Scola, Brooks, Lowry) are nowhere to be found tonight. Not that it’s their fault, their role players that’s all. What’s my point? To the uninitiated Brooks two good 4 and 6 games suddenly made him Chris Paul…to a hooper not so much.
Like I said. Take opiniation on this board with a grain of salt.
k1
May 17th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Howard’s defense is a lot overrated because most of his blocks are the dramatic blocks that go into the stands…and gives the ball back to the opposing team.
This is such a ridiculous claim, and one that I believe originated with Simmons a few weeks back.
Where is the evidence that a higher proportion of Howard’s blocks return to the offense than other players’? I’ve never seen this tracked.
And even if it were true that every Howard block went back to the offense, wouldn’t you still want him to block it? Most shots he blocks are high percentage, near the basket, the team gets the ball back with little time on the shot clock, and have to find another shot.
I just want to add that Howard’s rebounding numbers are inflated. This never gets brought up, but one of the reasons he is able to put up so many huge rebounding nights is because there is literally no one else on the Magic that rebounds at a meaningful rate.
Think about this… shouldn’t that make Howard’s job harder? Rashard Lewis isn’t exactly boxing out for boards under the rim.
Dude is a Celtics fan. He’s not purporting to give unbiased opinion on the Celtics’ opponents.
Indeed. In the very same chat Simmons says (a) that Howard is his first-team all-NBA center (and he’s made it clear he’s not confining himself to traditional position definitions… i.e. over Duncan and Gasol) and (b) that Howard played “really, really well”. He’s just talking shit (as well he should, as a Celtics fan).
May 17th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
I think people are comparing Current Howard with Peak Pat and Peak Hakeem, which is errant.
Howard is 23.
Hakeem was 23 in his second season (1986).
Patrick was 23 in his *rookie* season (1986 as well).
Neither of them were dominating the league anymore than Howard dominated this season.
David Robinson didn’t get into the NBA until he was 24.
Howard has “been around forever”, which tends to confuse folks into thinking he’s older than he really is. If he went to college for four years like Ewing did, he would have been a *rookie* this season. If he went to college for three years like Hakeem did, he would be in his second year as well. If he did a hitch in the Navy like Robinson, he wouldn’t even be in the NBA yet.
When Matt talks about potential, if you scratch the surface a bit at what he’s talking about, this is it. He’s already the best center in the NBA *and* he still is a young player. This is the age where Kobe first made All NBA, and he wasn’t even a serious MVP Candidate until 24.
Simmons is being delusional here. My thought would be for him to go back and look at his own beloved Celtic trio of KG, Pierce and Allen and ask him if the “peaked” at the age of 23. Or to his youth where Bird was a 23 year old rookie, as was McHale, and Parrish was a rookie way back in 1977 with the Warriors. When again did those guys each peak?
Pass the bong on this nonsense.
John
May 17th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
I just want to add that Howard’s rebounding numbers are inflated. This never gets brought up, but one of the reasons he is able to put up so many huge rebounding nights is because there is literally no one else on the Magic that rebounds at a meaningful rate.
Think about this… shouldn’t that make Howard’s job harder? Rashard Lewis isn’t exactly boxing out for boards under the rim.
It is a plus and a minus. On net, though, it is true that adding good rebounders to a team drags down the total rebounding numbers of each individual. There are simply more rebounds, remember that many defensive boards are essentially uncontested, for Dwight to corral than if they had forwards that were legitimate rebounders.
It’s the same thing as scoring. He is obviously a great rebounder, but he is not 25% better at it than the 2nd best rebounder.
May 17th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Dwight Howard is the most physically gifted athlete I’ve ever seen, in any sport.
But his game sucks. He gets by on his almost super-human physical gifts, but youth is fleeting. He needs to work on his shooting, his moves, his court-sense…his GAME.
May 17th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Blocks that do NOT change the possession are almost statistically worthless.
May 17th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Blocks that do NOT change the possession are almost statistically worthless.
A block that changes a 80% shot to a 0% shot is certainly worth something, even if it doesn’t change possession.
May 17th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
No doubt about it. Ben Wallace was an All-Star who, without a particularly good offensive game, averaged over 10 points per playoff game in leading Detroit to an NBA title. And they haven’t been the same since he left.
May 17th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
I think people are comparing Current Howard with Peak Pat and Peak Hakeem, which is errant.
This is exactly right. You’re all forgetting that Ewing, Hakeem, and Shaq all had several years of college experience to refine their game. Hell, Dwight just finished developing physically.
Also, I’m sure he realizes now that he’s called everyone else out, he needs to take his game to the next level. That means getting better at shooting free throws and learning some moves in the low post. I’m confident that he’ll make the leap, especiallly since he has Ewing as an assistant coach.
May 17th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
OT but the Lakers buried the Rockets 89 to 70 this afternoon. Unfortunately, they only seem to play up to their potential when their backs are against the wall.
May 17th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Chris D Says:
May 17th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
I think people are comparing Current Howard with Peak Pat and Peak Hakeem, which is errant.
This is exactly right. You’re all forgetting that Ewing, Hakeem, and Shaq all had several years of college experience to refine their game. Hell, Dwight just finished developing physically.
Also, I’m sure he realizes now that he’s called everyone else out, he needs to take his game to the next level. That means getting better at shooting free throws and learning some moves in the low post. I’m confident that he’ll make the leap, especiallly since he has Ewing as an assistant coach.
People claiming he is overrated and still needs to work on his game is not inconsistent with your statements. In fact, they go hand in hand and part of the griping is aimed at getting Dwight to develop these parts of his game.
Or should everyone ignore his obvious flaws and continue fellating a DPOY who allowed Thaddeus Young to score a game winner over him and has collected a total of 1 block in 3 games in Boston? And that’s the best part of his game!
May 17th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
SLC Says:
May 17th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
OT but the Lakers buried the Rockets 89 to 70 this afternoon. Unfortunately, they only seem to play up to their potential when their backs are against the wall.
Lakers are front runners. They are unstoppable when they manage to get up early, but if you can hold them down for a half they really struggle.
May 17th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
This is exactly right. You’re all forgetting that Ewing, Hakeem, and Shaq all had several years of college experience to refine their game. Hell, Dwight just finished developing physically.
It’s that sort of thinking that has allowed Kwame Brown to earn $46 mil. so far, with another $4 mil. available on a player option. Sometimes it doesn’t work out the way it should. And I say that as someone who continues to be plagued by Kwame-love.
May 17th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
It should be pointed out that Simmons isn’t alone in the sentiment; Free Darko and John Hollinger have both run pieces critical of Howard in the past few days.
As for Iverson, it depend on how much you have to play for him. Considering that he will sulk if he’s not starting and his body might be breaking down, if you’re paying ten million for the guy you better hope you have one hell of a roster besides.
May 17th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
People claiming he is overrated and still needs to work on his game is not inconsistent with your statements. In fact, they go hand in hand and part of the griping is aimed at getting Dwight to develop these parts of his game.
Or should everyone ignore his obvious flaws and continue fellating a DPOY who allowed Thaddeus Young to score a game winner over him and has collected a total of 1 block in 3 games in Boston? And that’s the best part of his game!
Who’s ignoring his obvious flaws? Of course his level of play right now isn’t comparable to Shaq and Hakeem in their primes. But who’s saying that it is?
Does he have holes in his game? Sure. But the fact remains that he’s the best center in the NBA and the only reason the Magic are a legit contender. For someone like that to be wildly overrated, it’d take a lot more hyping up than what I hear.
May 17th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
I guess it would help to remember the context: Dwight Howard complaining that he didn’t get the ball enough. Which led to many saying “but, uh, guy, we’ve seen Hakeem and you’re not him.”
Or, to put it another way, if you had to pick one guy for your game 7, would Howard even be in the top five? It’s not entirely clear he would. If you had to build for the next ten years, sure, he’s there, but he’s not that “I’m strapping you guys on my back, scoring thirty five, and dominating this game” type guys…yet.
May 17th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
I always get a chuckle out of arguments like “[Player A] is just [Inferior Player B] with [some advantages Player A has over Player B.]”
I’m never sure what a comparison like that is supposed to mean.
May 17th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
I guess it would help to remember the context: Dwight Howard complaining that he didn’t get the ball enough. Which led to many saying “but, uh, guy, we’ve seen Hakeem and you’re not him.”
If so many people say this, it’s kind of hard to say that he’s overrated.
May 17th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
I think you mean except for LeBron.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Somebody said they don’t see how the C’s can beat the Cavs w/o KG. I say it doesn’t matter if KG was playing.
LeBron James is SOOOOOOOOOOO different from last year (in which he was already freakishly awesome) that you could shave a year off of Pierce and Allen and throw KG back in and it will still be over in 6.
Seriously. It takes a hooper, it really does, to appreciate the things this guy does at his size. I had a chance to meet Elton Brand (who’s far from chopped liver) last year. The guy was massive and then I thought LeBron is the same size and is for all intents and purposes a second guard…scary!!!
k1
May 17th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
anyone who would take iverson over battier, today, in 2009, obviously doesn’t know anything about basketball.
they must be looking at AI tapes from 2001.
AI is a shell of a player. his shooting percentage is around 41 percent, he is THE worst defensive guard in the league and he is a turnover waiting to happen.
because he is so bad defensively, an entire team’s defense is compromised because of his inability to even guard perimeter shooters, cause he is constantly ball-watching, trying for a steal.
this pistons’ fan watched 90% of their games and there is no question that AI was a huge part of the pistons’ decline this year.
while AI was obviously a dynamic scorer at one point in his career, at this point, he is sucking fumes and living on past glory.
i’d take a defensive stopper who is going to contribute to the team, a player like battier, any day, over an over the hill ballhog like AI.
it’s always amusing to read AI fanboys talk about “AI” is this and “AI” is that and the reality is that they are stuck in a time warp, unable to deal with reality.
they remind me of gloria swanson in sunset boulevard, reliving their past glory, and being stuck, psychotically in it.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
OK k1, we get it, you don’t think anyone besides those who played at as high of a level as you is worthy of commenting on hoops. Obviously the fact that someone might be short or unathletic means there is no way they can comprehend such a thing as a “cut”, whatever that is.
I fully expect you to shut your yap in all areas in which you have not participated at a high level. As such, if I ever see you commenting in a science thread I will promptly tell you to STFU. If you possess an extensive publication record, I will reconsider this.
Now do you see how much of a pretentious douche you sound like?
May 17th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Howard had a great first half. Let’s see how well he does the 2nd half. Will he be able to come through when it’s important.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Seriously. It takes a hooper, it really does, to appreciate the things this guy does at his size. I had a chance to meet Elton Brand (who’s far from chopped liver) last year. The guy was massive and then I thought LeBron is the same size and is for all intents and purposes a second guard…scary!!!
I think you and I see the game alike. I try to tell people, guys I play hoop with, this and they kind of stare blankly at me with the “yeah, and. . .” look that says it doesn’t mean anything to them. LeBron is THE freak athlete among a bunch of freak athletes that include freaks like Howard.
For those of you who don’t think Howard is a great rebounder I think you should watch him play. He’s the best I’ve ever seen — I’ve been watching seriously since ~1980.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Dwight Howard is the most physically gifted athlete I’ve ever seen, in any sport.
really?
you obviously haven’t watched much sports.
wilt chamberlain? who could have been an olympic-class track athlete if he’d devoted himself to that sport?
a guy who led the league in league in assists, while still being able to score 50 points a game for one season?
gordie howe? a guy who played competitively in the nhl into his 50’s?
or mark messier, a huge, quick, strong hockey player who did everything he did on a pair of razor sharp blades.
muhammad ali, a jumbo sized boxer with the moves of a middleweight?
willie mays?
mickey mantle?
roberto clemente?
shaq?
not to mention, lebron.
the list could go on and on.
howard may be the most impressive-looking athlete, with his huge shoulders and biceps, but imho, he is remarkably stiff for a guy playing basketball. one of his biggest problems is that he lacks a certain flexibility that might allow him to be more versatile offensively.
athleticism is not just about being able to pogo up and crack someone with an elbow.
he obviously has impressive athleticism, but he is really the beneficiary of nba marketing. the league takes players and makes them into supermen – it certainly helps if a player plays along as howard has – in a way that obscures the true player. and no-nothing fans lap it up and end up adopting the league spin.
if he is such a phenomenal athlete why is he unable to perform basic basketball moves that other supposedly lesser athletes perform routinely.
something like a drop step, for instance, a concept that appears to totally befuddle him.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
the idea that playing college ball gives one unmatched insight into basketball is laughable.
as someone who attended a couple of colleges where big-time basketball was played, as someone who regularly hung out with lots of the fellas on the teams, i say without hesitation that many of them were so frigging dumb, even about the nuances of their own sport, that it was shocking. now this does not say that any and all players fell into this category, because that was not the case. there were several guys who really did “get it”, guys who did show a real understanding of their sport, but the idea that just “because i played, i have a level of knowledge that no mortal man can possess” , well that is just so much BS.
if that was the case, the nba wouldn’t be full of players who don’t appear to know the first thing about guarding a pick and roll. and those guys are supposed to be the elite.
count me as unimpressed and unlikely to give anyone props about anything, just because…
May 17th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
Calling Dwight the best centre is like calling Lebron the best player – the decision is that his freak physical gifts outweigh the value of a complete polished game. LeBron, like Dwight, is a physical freak but has a very unpolished game.
Personally I think Kobe and Yao Ming are the better player and the better centre respectively – they both have polished games for their roles. Geez, Yao was commanding double and triple teams BEFORE the entry pass during the playoffs.
May 18th, 2009 at 5:50 am
frankie d you need to recognize your own limitations
of course being an all conference honorable mention in DIII
gives the man unmatched insight into talent, scheming,
and potential at the NBA level the nuances he picked up during that one run at SAC are beyond your comprehension
May 18th, 2009 at 6:33 am
Seriously. It takes a hooper, it really does, to appreciate the things this guy does at his size. I had a chance to meet Elton Brand (who’s far from chopped liver) last year. The guy was massive and then I thought LeBron is the same size and is for all intents and purposes a second guard…scary!!!
This is getting pretty absurd. Have you not been paying attention at all??!! People of all stripes have been drooling over LBJ since he was 17 for this very reason. The 2 things that get commented on are his vision and athletecism. It’s not as if he has a pretty jumper.
Also, basketball is not even remotely as complicated as football, and Mike Leach has amply demonstrated that you don’t need to have played college ball to coach at a very high level. In football the coordinator and head coaches are all former players because you have to get promoted from a position’s coach, which does generally require playing experience. But it’s definitely not a prerequisite for the top jobs and the ‘player’s know’ bias is probably largely responsible for much of the poor quality coaching we see at top levels of professional sports.
May 18th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Howard has the livest big body I have ever seen. If he puts the work in, he can accomplish anything he wants on the hardwood. The question is whether he is Scotty or Michael–underperforming his gifts or maximizing them–either one is going to be awesome.
May 18th, 2009 at 9:43 am
I got a good laugh when I went to Howard’s blog a couple days ago and saw his advice to young big men:
“DWIGHT: I’d say start off with learning basic moves like a drop step to the baseline, getting to the middle with hook shots and hitting a turn-around jump shot.”
You would? When?
May 18th, 2009 at 10:02 am
I wouldn’t sell the Magic short against Cleveland. They match up well against the Cavs. If they were smart, they would put Rashard Lewis on James. Between that and Howard roaming the paint, they can take away Lebron’s #1 weapon, his ability to get to the hoop. Lebron just doesn’t have as polished an all-around offensive game as Kobe (or even Manu). Take away than and the Cavs become very beatable. Add the fact that the Cavs haven’t yet played a team with a better record than the West’s 8 seed and you have a team that hasn’t yet played playoff basketball. Combine that with the crucible the Magic just endured in Boston and I would be shocked if this series doesn’t go to at least 6 and would not be at all surprised if the Finals were Kobe vs. Howard.
Heck, based purely on matchups, I would be less surprised with a Lakers vs. Magic Finals than I would with a Cavs vs. Nuggets Finals. Though I would put the odds at 30% L vs. M, 25% C vs. N, 45% Cavs vs Lakers.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Wow. I offended a lot of former intramural stars…sorry about that fellas.
I’ll walk back my comments to simply mean that in my experience talking hoops with those who are professionally associated with the game (i.e. GMs) or played at a high level (big time d1) is different than talking with casual fans on a board…that’s all.
Btw, you only show your ignorance to the initiated when you say stupid things like “I’ll take Battier over Iverson”. It’s true. If you want to be taken seriously you should probably stop talking like that…seriously.
k1
May 18th, 2009 at 11:18 am
This is getting pretty absurd. Have you not been paying attention at all??!! People of all stripes have been drooling over LBJ since he was 17 for this very reason. The 2 things that get commented on are his vision and athletecism. It’s not as if he has a pretty jumper.
Mpowell-
Have you ever ran a fast break? Caught a backdoor alley oop? Picked up full? Hit a step back game winner?
I have. My point wasn’t to denegrate anyone with the originally comment. It was simply to praise Lebron for making very difficult moves look easy. My comment here stands. You can’t fully appreciate Lebron’s backdoor alleys unless you’ve caught one before and understand how easy he makes what was somewhat difficult for you seem.
Don’t be a douche dude.
k1
May 18th, 2009 at 11:24 am
. Add the fact that the Cavs haven’t yet played a team with a better record than the West’s 8 seed
They played a season’s worth of games against everybody–including the top eight seeds in the West–and ended up with the best record in basketball. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think that they have a particularly bad record against the playoff teams or even Western playoff teams. That said, my recollection is that the Magic and Cavs split this year. I think it’s going to be a pretty good series.
If you want to be taken seriously you should probably stop talking like that…seriously.
Taken seriously by whom? Some random internet commenter? Grow up. Jeebus.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:35 am
SCMT,
The Magic won the season series 2-1. And as the Lakers-Rockets series showed, regular season basketball != playoff basketball. The Lakers were 4-0 against the Rockets and a whole lot of good it did them the last couple of weeks. When the Cavs got swept by the Spurs in the finals a couple years ago, they were 2-0 against the Spurs.
Playoff basketball, experience and the associated intensity changes things in a big way.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:39 am
People, please move on. I’m sure Simmons will read this (and every other posting about him). Let’s please not give him another opportunity to hold forth on Kevin McHale’s unrivalled repetoir of low-post moves.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:55 am
The Magic won the season series 2-1.
Huh. It looks like each team held serve. I think this series goes at least six. But we’ll see shortly.
And as the Lakers-Rockets series showed, regular season basketball != playoff basketball.
The Lakers series showed that the Lakers are lackadaisical nutters; I’m not sure it shows more than that.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
As many have noted, there ain’t a GM in the league who wouldn’t crawl over broken glass for a Ben Wallace who could shoot free throws and who had a jump hook. This reminds me of people who criticized Garnett for years because he wasn’t Jabbar or Olajuwon in the low post. Yeah, and Albert Pujols isn’t Willie Mays. So what?
May 18th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
As a three-time NBA All-Star who has played in the NBA finals on multiple occasions, I have a hard time taking anyone’s opinions about basketball here seriously. Have you ever guarded Kobe Bryant, hit a game-tying buzzer-beating 3-pointer in the playoffs, or posted up while be defended by a future Hall of Famer? I have. So Shane Battier is much better than Alan Iverson at this stage in his career, take it to the bank.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Btw, you only show your ignorance to the initiated when you say stupid things like “I’ll take Battier over Iverson”. It’s true. If you want to be taken seriously you should probably stop talking like that…seriously.
If you think Iverson is more valuable than Battier, tell us why. Don’t just assume it’s true. I’d take Battier, and here’s why: he’s one of the top 5 defenders in the league, probably the top perimeter defender. Iverson, at this point in his career, doesn’t have that kind of impact on either end of the floor. In his prime he was a top-5 scorer/creator in the back court, but now he’s barely above average, given his problems motivating himself when he’s not option #1 or 1A on his team.
Now obviously AI in prime was better than Battier is now, but a lot of people are having trouble accepting that AI’s prime is over.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
I doubt Red Auerbach ever caught a back door alley oop. I suspect he had a better appreciation for what James does than 99.99999999999999% of the people who have caught a back door alley oop.
A related story I love is Bobby Knight telling somebody in the Trailblazers organization in 1984 that they had to draft Jordan, if they knew anything about basketball. The other guy said they were going to get Bowie, because they needed a center. Knight told him to play Jordan at center, then.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
I’m a Celtic fan so I am painfully aware of how much of an impact Howard has on the game that goes far beyond the box score. His incredible defense of he rim forced many misses, even when he didn’t actually block them. He allowed the Magic to play the perimeter very aggressively, without fear that their man would go backdoor or dribble penetrate. He made Rondo a non-factor (he couldn’t drive and dish). On offense, even though he doesn’t have great moves, he demands weak-side help and a collapsing defense (basically teams play zone against him) which opens up perimeter passing lanes and uncontested threes on the weakside. Anytime the Magic reversed the ball, the weakside shooter was wide open. His ability to grab and convert offensive rebounds into field goals often turns misses into “assists”. His presence inhibits help defense on his teammates who drive to the basket because if they get the ball to him, it’s a dunk. Yeah, I think he’s pretty good – DAMN IT!!
May 18th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I think the conference finals will be interesting. If the Magic shoot threes the way they did on Sunday, they have a chance. If they shoot them the way they have for the rest of the playoffs, they’re getting swept.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Waingro asked a really interesting question about eighty comments ago…how does Howard compare to Hakeem at age 23?
From my recollection, at 23 The Dream hadn’t yet invented his inimitable “shake” move, in which he backed off the poor lug attempting to guard him and zipped around him as if he were on skates and the other guy was nailed to the floor.
Be interesting to ask Hakeem how and where he developed that move, or if he might want to try to teach it to Howard.
Howard has greatness potential, obviously, but he doesn’t appear to have put in the time to seriously develop his offensive game. He doesn’t even seem to have an up-and-under move, which for someone with his athletic gifts is just wrong.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Now obviously, I’m a homer and and looking forward to a Championship year for the Cavs. I scanned this whole comments thread and found no mention of Ilgausgas, Mo Williams, West, Varejao or Joe Smith. LeBron is super fantastic…but…there are several other folks on the floor with him. I’ve watched nearly every minute of every game this season and this is a very superior basketball team.
Mike Brown has a great team built around LBJ and everyone who thinks that the team is 100% LeBron isn’t paying attention. He hasn’t played but three quarters a game in the playoffs so far. It’s gonna be Cavs vs. Lakers in the Finals. No way Phil Jackson will not win a couple of games, but with Home Court, the Cavs should finish it in 6.
Orlando is toast.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
From my recollection, at 23 The Dream hadn’t yet invented his inimitable “shake” move, in which he backed off the poor lug attempting to guard him and zipped around him as if he were on skates and the other guy was nailed to the floor.
My recollection is otherwise–that he had it by the end of college, but didn’t use it much, as his teams were stacked–but I could be wrong. I more certain that he was praised for his clever feet in college, and I know he attributed his footwork to soccer that he played prior to college.
I don’t know what Howard’s footwork looks like or if it’s possible for him to learn Hakeem’s moves. My sense is that he doesn’t have the feet for it, but I couldn’t tell you why. Howard strikes me as more of a bull.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Now obviously, I’m a homer and and looking forward to a Championship year for the Cavs. I scanned this whole comments thread and found no mention of Ilgausgas, Mo Williams, West, Varejao or Joe Smith.
Maybe that’s because it’s a thread about Dwight Howard.
I still like the Cavs to win it all, but Orlando is a potentially dangerous matchup for them. Obviously nobody stops LeBron from getting to the rim, but Howard is the only guy who’s going to come close. And everybody who plays Orlando has to deal with the fact that they have the fastest big men in the league, and the Cavs aren’t super athletic at the 4 and 5 (or anywhere, really, except the 3). If the Magic can get running, I see Big Z spending a lot of time on the bench in this series, and that’s bad for Cleveland’s offense.
Still, Cavs in 6. Lakers over Denver in 7, Cavs over Lakers.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
SCMT is right, you can’t just learn footwork like Hakeem had. But Howard certainly has room the improve. David Robinson never had Hakeem’s post moves, but he was still a great offensive player.
May 18th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
too many steves-
Here’s why: In his last two “past his prime” years Iverson has averaged 22ppg and 5.5apg. Again, I hate to denegrate you guys but no one who knows basketball is going to turn their nose up at a guy averaging 20+ppg in THE NBA, especially when in both of those years his team made the playoffs.
The reason he is still better than Battier is that Battier has no such influence over a game…sorry end of story. I want no more comments on the matter. Case closed.
May 18th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
no one who knows basketball is going to turn their nose up at a guy averaging 20+ppg in THE NBA, especially when in both of those years his team made the playoffs.
Tell it to the ‘03-’04 Suns.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
SCMT, k1 clearly said he wants no more comments on the matter. Therefore, I won’t point out that AI has declined a lot over the past two years, so a “past two years” average is misleading. I also won’t point out that 22 and 5 isn’t exactly Chris Paul (or Young Allen Iverson) territory — it’s good, but there are plenty of guys who can score 22 a game if they don’t have to shoot a real high percentage. I won’t point out that on the defensive end Battier is the equivalent of a 25-a-game scorer.
Anyway, it’s not “turning your nose up” at AI to say Battier’s better. Battier is a top-10 guy at his position, and even now, so it AI. If AI didn’t come with the baggage of not being willing to accept a complementary role, then this would be a close call. But Battier is going to help you win and Iverson right now is either going to get in the way of winning, or sit on the bench in street clothes.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:08 am
2 Many Stephon’s- Yeah, Bill Gross’ portfolio has declined consistently over the past 3 quarters, but it’s still worth considerably more than 90% of the average American’s….and even though I’m up 11.5% during that time, I’d quickly trade with Gross in a heartbeat…what’s your point?
Timothy, Some Call Me- I’m mystified by your link to the Suns especially since Steph signed a HUGE deal with the Knicks because they WANTED his scoring so much. Help me
k1
May 19th, 2009 at 9:42 am
If you think that was a good trade–if you’re another one who thinks of Isiah Thomas as some sort of GM supergenius, and if you think the Knicks don’t regret that trade–then I don’t know what to tell you.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Hey k1:
Who are you?
May 19th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
From an SI post entitled “What’s the Answer Now?”:
and