As Netanyahu Heads to Town, Israel Launches New Settlement
Maybe Barack Obama can mention something about this?
Israel has moved ahead with a plan to build a new settlement in the northern West Bank for the first time in 26 years, pursuing a project the United States has already condemned as an obstacle to peace efforts. The move comes on the eve of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s first meeting with U.S. President Barack Obama, despite Western calls for Israel to halt its settlement activity. [...]
The initiative began three years ago, under the auspices of then-defense minister Amir Peretz, who promised to transform a former army outpost into a permanent settlement for evacuees from the Gaza Strip. The move was then frozen due to American insistence.
Realistically, I think both Obama and Netanyahu face strong political incentives to paper over their differences rather to have Obama state his position forcefully. In the short term, Palestinians will probably pay the biggest price for that. But Israel and the United States will come to grief, too, soon enough.
48 Responses to “As Netanyahu Heads to Town, Israel Launches New Settlement”
Register
RSSLogin
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog RollAbout Matt YglesiasContact Me
Donate
May 18th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Doesn’t the timing of this indicate that this is a deliberate provocation by Netanyahu? That he’s attempting to show who’s the boss in the US-Israeli relationship? How can Obama possibly let this slide?
May 18th, 2009 at 11:27 am
It really is astounding how openly Israel says “fuck you” to US concerns. Which is fair enough from Israel’s point of view, but why does America agree to keep playing Charlie Brown to Israel’s Lucy? It really is bizarre to watch America both actively support the growth of the Apartheid state while at the same time publicly making statements it knows will be ignored and mocked? Really, what could America do to look weaker?
May 18th, 2009 at 11:27 am
The zionists knew, while still in Europe, that there were over 700,000 Arabs in Palestine and that Jews owned less than 10% of the land there. And they said Palestine was “a land without people for a people without land.”
They knew that ethnic cleansing would be required to establish a Jewish state.
They were lying then and they have never stopped lying.
There is zero reason to believe anything the zionists say.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:35 am
RE: Glenn @ #1
Yes, yes, and I sure as hell hope he doesn’t.
Netanyahu is playing his same old game under the assumption that there is nothing in the world he can do, short of unabashed ethnic cleansing, that would cause a serious rupture in US/Israeli relations.
He may well be right. But frankly, the further he pushes that envelope, the more political breathing room he gives those of us who would like to see a serious shift in US policy away from Israel. So if the punk feels lucky…
May 18th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Whatever Israel does, our “leaders” in D.C. will turn toward Tel Aviv, click their heels together, and salute their Fuehrer, Netanyahu.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:54 am
“In the short term, Palestinians will probably pay the biggest price for that.”
There have been many such “short terms” stretching back to 67, no?
My dream: Obama tells Nannybooboo that a condition for future aid from the U.S. is (1) Israel’s publicly committing to a two-state solution; (2) Israel’s dismantling of illegal settlements; (3) Israel’s promise not to undertake a preemptive strike against Iran.
My reality: Obama and Nannybooboo will meet and disagree, and afterward Obama will mouth some nonsense about “dialogue” and our “commitment” to Israel and nothing will change.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:56 am
An excellent group of bunghole comments, particularly kafka’s deep dive into the dark.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:57 am
One can almost see and hear Bibi telling his team that he’s going to prove that Obama has no balls and he’ll be rolled.
This settlement isn’t a an accident. Neither were the comments that two-state solutions weren’t on the agenda (for decades, likely) until the Palestinians proved that economic gains would keep them tame. On other issues (Iran must be ’solved’ before Israel can consider the Palestinian issue) Bibi is trying to be the alpha dog to Barak’s omega dog. I’d bet he even calls Obama his bitch-to-be, followed by a hearty laugh and a tug at his crotch. “Suck THIS, Mr. President”.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Settlements today, settlements tomorrow, settlements to the far horizon.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Ah, quelle surprise. Everybody knows that Zionism is a disgrace.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Simply more evidence that Israeli interests are not American interests. Perhaps something to keep in mind when considering AIPAC’s influence in the US Congress.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Re abb1
What a surprise, Mr. abb1 fucks little boys.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Standard Netanyahu bullshit. And unless something wierd happens (Obama calling Netanyahu out publicly using this as an example of the sort of Israeli behavior that has to change) then this is more of the same old boring posturing that won’t ever actually lead to a two-state solution.
The Palestinian national movement has been seriously diluted. The current leadership isn’t credible, there are no leaders on the horizon, and the Palestinians are starting to depend on extended families, religious authorities, and so forth to solve problems. Meanwhile there are half a million settlers in Palestinian terriroty, a number that is growing daily, and they and their supporters constitute possibly the strongest political force in Israel these days. The Israeli government has shown no willingness to do anything other than obstruct and make excuses, all the while continuing the land theft and oppression. They have never offered anything that would be acceptable to a Palestinian leader. (They did come close at Taba, and if they had given up on their continual insistence of surrounding the Palestinians, and the Palestinians had given up the 1948 return, they maybe could have worked something out with Jerusalem and West Bank/Gaza movement and clinched it.) A two state solution probably isn’t in the cards anymore.
That sucks, but on the other hand if there aren’t two states then there’s going to be one. It will be Palestinian-majority, and there goes the Zionist dream. For that the Israelis will have no one to blame but themselves–it happens whether the Palestinians are all terrorists to the last or are as peaceful as kittens. If you annex an area full of Arabs, refuse to let it go, and then wonder where all the Arabs came from, I can’t help you.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Re spokeytown
I am afraid that Mr. spokeytown is seriously in error in his analysis of Taba. The peace talks collapsed because the Palestinians refused to give up their demand that Palestinians in refugee camps be resettled in Israel. Despite the rants and rages of the Arnold Evans of the world, the Government of Israel will never accept such a demand.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Gotcha. Notice where I say “if (Israel) had given up on their continual insistence of surrounding the Palestinians, and the Palestinians had given up the 1948 return, they maybe could have worked something out with Jerusalem and West Bank/Gaza movement and clinched it.” So yes, Palestinians needed to give more on refugees resettling in Israel. There are a lot of other things that needed to happen before a deal could be signed and unfortunately they didn’t happen.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
My dear friend SLC is, of course, wrong on the facts as usual, but he’s correct on the essence: there is absolutely no point in negotiating with the barbaric tribalistic insane cult that is called Zionism. Not in the past, not now, not ever.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Granted this is a total waste of effort on my part, but could everyone settle down a bit? Pretty much every Israel/Palestine thread in history ends up with various accusations of Nazism, fucking little boys/mothers/donkeys/etc., secret cabals, the essential savagery of Jews/Arabs, etc. It’s kind of a drag when I try to take a pro-Palestinian position and then a bunch of posts pop up “proving” that Jews are a bunch of world-controlling hooked-nosed savages, and I imagine a reasonable pro-Israeli person has a similar problem when a bunch of sub-Marty Peretz vitriol starts flooding the page.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
“There have been many such “short terms” stretching back to 67, no?”
Those “short terms” stretch back to the start of the British Mandate. The idea of a Palestinian state has been sabotaged ever since the Ottomans lost control of Palestine. It’s been the slowest moving ethnic cleansing in history. But as Bibi makes clear, it will succeed eventually.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
I’m with you, spokeytown, but you’re basically ordering the tide not to come in. There is no chance for a civil Israel/Palestine thread at all.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Re abb1
Now here Mr. abb1 and I have some overlap in agreement. It is clearly a waste of time to negotiate with subhuman Fakestinians whose only contribution to mankind is disease, filth, and terrorism.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Sounds a lot like what the Nazis said about the Jews…
May 18th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Exactly, Jack. And they are exactly the same, Zionists and Nazis. A bunch of racist swine.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
spokeytown,
Keep the faith, there are reasonable people here among us. A little while back SLC wrote something that genuinely disturbed me and when I asked him if it was in good faith, he admitted it was not: he writes to confound. He and those like him remind me of Judge Holden in Blood Meridien, who, as wikipedia explains, “delights in misleading, manipulating and setting men against one another, and in complex argument.”
-newhavendan
May 18th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
ron Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:27 am
The zionists knew, while still in Europe, that there were over 700,000 Arabs in Palestine and that Jews owned less than 10% of the land there. And they said Palestine was “a land without people for a people without land.”
Indeed, “land without people for a people without land” was an early lie.
They knew that ethnic cleansing would be required to establish a Jewish state.
They were lying then and they have never stopped lying.
There is zero reason to believe anything the zionists say.
What ron said.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Our resident schmendrick SLC is the kind of Jew who simply put – endangers other Jews, not to mention all the rest of us filthy goyim.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
SLC has six insults, and he intends to use them. Of course, the idiot drive-by anti-semites are no better.
It’s only a matter of time before larry birnbaum shows up to say that Israel is just better at negotiation-via-construction, and until the Palestinians negotiate with bulldozer-proof home construction, it’s their own problem.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Tomemos
Yeah pretty much. SLC comes through in the next post with this gem: It is clearly a waste of time to negotiate with subhuman Fakestinians whose only contribution to mankind is disease, filth, and terrorism. Then abb1 charms us with And they are exactly the same, Zionists and Nazis. A bunch of racist swine. Delightful.
Since I’ve got nothing better to do I’ll take on the fallacies in these quotes. SLC’s stuff could be called Nazi-like except he (as far as I know) hasn’t done anything to show he actually thinks this (i.e. start killing Palestinians). My guess is he’s a twerp posting from his couch when not playing Halo3 or something. The only real argument here, or what passes for an argument, is the Fakestinians thing. I guess this means that Palestinian culture is not distinct enough from, say, Jordanian culture to justify a state for them. Not sure if SLC is an expert on Arab cultures, and I’m also not sure what sort of threshhold of distinctive-ness you need to pass before you get your own country. (Do Canadians pass? Austrians? Panamanians? Taiwanese? Did the US pass the threshhold when we fought the British?) Also, this isn’t how nationalism works. As with the US example, when a bunch of people suddenly decide they’re a nation, then that’s pretty much it. You don’t need to prove historical bona fides or anything like that. So SLC calling Palestinians Fakestinians misses the point completely; if they call themselves Palestinians then they are.
SLC also misses the point in more important way. Let’s say he’s right and Palestinians are just generic Arabs. There’s absolutely nothing to distinguish them from Jordanians, Kuwaitis, Algerians, etc. They have no distinct culture, language, history, poetry, cuisine, or anything else. They are just a bunch of people in refugee camps with nothing to their name. Even if all this is true (and it’s not) they still have the same rights as everybody else, including the right not be oppressed in the manner that Israel is oppressing them. Also, they still outnumber Jews and take over Israel if Israel refuses to let them go.
OK, abb1 is next. I’m guessing there’s a similar 101st keyboard, Halo3 dynamic going on here. Ethnic cleansing is Israel’s original sin, in pretty much the same manner as the US and every other nation in the western hemisphere (as well as several in the eastern hemisphere). The Zionists marketed a homeland (and if anyone was deserving of a safe haven in the early 20th century, it was European Jews) while kind of ignoring the fact that there were a bunch of people already there. A mix of inertia, brutality, and racism led to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. This is how most of these things happen.
You could argue that this is the same thing as the holocaust. However, it’s actually radically different, if nothing else then in manner of degree. Not to minimize what happened in 1948, but the highly technical system of murder that fed the chimneys at Auschwitz has little resemblance to anything Ben gurion and Co. pulled off.
More importantly, let’s say it’s true and the Zionist movement was exactly like the Nazis in every way. It still doesn’t matter. Most Israelis were born after 1948. They do not deserve to lose their homes or get killed in a terrorist attack any more than I deserve to get expelled back to Europe for the sins of General Howard chasing Chief Joseph around, or hell, the sins of whites all the way back to Christopher Columbus.
All right, this was a waste of time, but it’s nice to take basement computer hate-mongers apart every now and then.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Re spokeytown
1. Just as a matter of correcting the record, the genocide of Europeans against Native Americans started long before General Howard and Chief Joseph were born.
2. On this claim of ethnic cleansing on the part of Jewish Israelis, the record shows that, if true, they are the most incompetent ethnic cleansers in the history of the world as in excess of 1 million non-Jews, most of them Palestinian Muslim Arabs, currently reside in Israel. But as they say, nothing is more devastating to an opinion then a number.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
spokeytown,
That wasn’t a waste of time. I for one immensely enjoyed reading a reasonable post by a reasonable person. As for me, I’m pro-Israel and anti-West Bank colonization. To me it makes absolute sense, though reading the partisans out there you would think that I’m some kind of freak.
newhavendan
May 18th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
The Nazi holocaust started in 1941-42. From 1932 for ten years there were Nazis sans holocaust, so please don’t bullshit me with the holocaust, give it a rest.
There was the Kristallnacht, there were the Nuremberg Laws (”The Laws for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour”), race-based plunder, confiscations, expulsions.
Zionists have done all of that and more, much, much more. Massacres. Murdering children of undesired ethnicity: “I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport,” writes Chris Hedges in his Gaza Diary.
So, there: Zionists are, in fact, much worse than Nazis; that is 1932 thru 1941 Nazis. Is this fair enough?
May 18th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
While the Nakba is not exactly like the Holocaust, there certainly are similarities and it is not unreasonable for us to acknowledge the suffering of the Palestinians. It may be one of the keys to a true peace.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
SLC @28;
1. You are correct sir. Natives were being killed in the new world prior to the Wallowa Valley in 1877. Notice that I also mention Columbus.
2. The numbers I’ve seen regarding the 1948 war are 700-750,000 expelled and 150,000 remaining in Israel. So 5 out of 6 expelled. That’s pretty effective. You could argue that they were told to leave by their Arab overlords, and apparently some of that happened (according to Benny Morris) but not in any sort of organized way. An enemy army aproaching your village is going to be much more persuasive in this regard than some dude on the radio. It seems that, for the most part, Palestinians were either expelled or fled out of fear.
Also, the fact that about 150,000 Palestinians were left, and that there was no death camp infrastructure or other mass killing mechanism, shows how different the Israeli plans were from the Nazi plans. And of course thousands of Jews were expelled from Arab countries, which was just as unjust as the Jewish expulsion of the Palestinians.
A larger point: what does this matter to the situation at hand? Even if Ben Gurion and Co. grew horns and breathed fire, what does that have to do with what anyone should do now? What if they all had halos and wings? None of this makes a difference. I say Israel needs to let go of the Arabs or it’s going to have a lot of Arabs on its hands. I say the Palestinians deserve a country and the Israelis deserve not to be blown up. No one has taken any of those ideas on yet. Why do Israel/Palestine threads always get sidetracked by historical food fights or racist insult-swapping?
May 18th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Incidentally, spokeytown is a racist swine too. Typical concern-trolling racist swine.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
abb 1;
Yes, Zionists have done many bad things. It ain’t the holocaust, unless you believe that all of this is a matter of degree, that a few guys killing kids in a village is just a miniature version of a government committing mass genocide. Or a policy that leads to lots of brutality and murder is basically a toned-down version of the holocaust. And maybe that’s true. There’s the capacity for evil in everybody’s heart, especially when there’s patriotism and propaganda involved. I would say that this dilutes your argument since pretty much every nation has skeletons in its closet of one sort or other, often involving small-scale genocide or long-running injustice or (fill in the blank). If you’re saying “Zionists are just like Nazis” to make a point, but the implication of your argument is that we all have a little Nazi in us, then what’s the point? If you’re saying that the holocaust was a uniquely terrible event and the 1948 war is a close second, and nothing else in history comes close, then you’re way off base.
Also, I would ask again what any of this matters to the question of what we should do now. I’m still waiting for an answer to that which acknowledges the basic rights of everyone in the region.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Alright abb1, I posted #34 before seeing your #33. In response to #33 (I am typical concern-trolling racist swine), get fucked. I spent a year in 2002 and 2003, during the height of the second intifada and Israeli re-occupation, living over there working directly with Palestinian organizations for their basic human rights. I’m still working with them now stateside. I’m not sure what you were doing during that time while I was passing through checkpoints in Ramallah and dodging suicide bombers in Haifa, and maybe it doesn’t matter. But you better damn well come up with some good reasons for calling me a racist swine or… (Well, or nothing. This is the internet, we can’t take it outside. This is what I hate about the internet, but again, I knew from the beginning that any Israel/Palestine thread would get hijacked by shits like abb1 and SLC. No point in getting upset about it.)
May 18th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
“Like Nazis” means exactly what it says. Same ideology, same methods.
“I say Israel needs to let go of the Arabs or it’s going to have a lot of Arabs on its hands.” is why you’re a concern-trolling racist swine. As long as you see the world in these terms you’re a racist swine. And concern-trolling is what you do here.
May 18th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
?
I gotta admit I have no idea what you’re talking about with the concern-trolling stuff. (And yeah, I know what concern-trolling is.) As per the other stuff, I’m going out on a limb and assuming you’re talking about the demographic fear that so many Israelis have of too many Arabs in their midst. Yeah, that’s pretty racist. Part of my work over there was working with Palestinian citizens of Israel, and there’s a ton of racism they have to deal with that’s pretty incredible. (Separate and unequal schools, towns where they aren’t allowed to live, massive differences in the level of services given by the government, systematic job discrimination, etc.) A lot of this is based fear of the demographic “threat” of too many Arab babies. Of course, opposition to the right of return is to some degree based on the same stuff, and some opposition to control of the West Bank and Gaza is based on that as well (this is where we get proposals like Lieberman’s where Israel will keep settlements and lop off Arab towns). So those are some pretty obvious examples of racism.
I think Israelis could be legitimately opposed to the right of return based on the fact that Jews and Arabs have spent the last 100 years or so killing each other, and that bad blood is not going away any time soon. Palestinians could be legitimately opposed to a one-state solution for the same reasons. And most of them are. In fact, this applies to the right of return as well–Palestinians absolutely believe they have this right, but very few of them might choose to actually exercise that right. Khalil Shikaki did a study a few years back where he asked refugees if they would rather live in Israel or in an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Something like 10% said they would want to return; the rest don’t speak Hebrew, don’t want to live in a Jewish state, would be afraid of discrimination or expulsion at some future point, have already set down roots elsewhere, would want to participate in building a new Palestinian country, etc. Out of those who would want to return, only 10% of them would want Israeli citizenship and the rest would want Palestinian citizenship. So ultimately we’re talking about 1% of the refugee population.
A lot of this desire for separate states is based on mistrust, racism, etc. and it’s a real shame. Letting Israel keep the spoils of war and ethnic cleansing while the Palestinians get less than they ought to also is victor’s justice and it sucks. If Palestinians could get their land back and the Jews could live there too and everyone could just get along, it would be awesome. If you can think of a way to make that happen, feel free to let me and everyone else here know, and then go to the Nobel committee to accept your well-earned peace prize. I mean that in all seriousness.
I do have some sympathy for the Zionist cause, in that (as envisioned by Herzl) after thousands of years of pogroms and inquisitions and crusades and ghettoes and massacres and on and on and on, there would be one place where Jewish culture and religion and language and people and everything else could survive and could thrive. That’s great! They decided to pick a place where a bunch of people already lived and threw most of those inhabitants out in one of the greater crimes of the century (there were many, many other crimes just as bad or worse, unfortunately, and the holocaust trumps them all by a long shot). Then they decided to take over the remnants and engage in a slow-motion, incredibly petty and cruel theft of land and rights from Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. The people responsible for these decisions in my opinion belong in the Hague.
Of course, so do the Palestinians who decided to attack innocent civilians. I was in Haifa in April 2003 when a bus full of high school kids blew up. (In fact, I had advised a co-worker the day before that the buses were safe, and she would have been on that bus if I hadn’t given her bad directions to the bus stop.) Whatever happened to the bomber (House bulldozed? Dad shot? Brother imprisoned for no reason? Sister died in childbirth at a checkpoint? All of the above? None of the above?)–whatever happened to the bomber, I KNOW that none of the kids on that bus did anything to him. If you boil all of the laws of war down to one sentence, it would be “shoot at the ones who are shooting at you and leave the rest out of it.” Maybe you make extra allowances for oppressed people doing guerrilla warfare, but this sort of thing still isn’t acceptable. Suicide bombings against civilian targets are war crimes.
Anyway. I am of the opinion that since Israelis and Palestinians have been at each others’ throats for about a century, and since most of them on both sides want a two-state solution, then there should be a two-state solution. Yeah this finalizes many of the crimes of the past, but this is what they want so who am I to tell them any different? Insisting on a one-state solution would be kind of like saying they have to put Yugoslavia back together. It would be great if that could be done but there’s just no way it would be workable unless everyone there has an attitude transplant.
The funny part is that the two-state solution probably won’t happen because right-wing racist Israelis, who are paranoid about too many Arab babies, just can’t quit the Arabs. Hence my saying “Israel needs to let go of the Arabs or it’s going to have a lot of Arabs on its hands.” You can make a case for Palestinian statehood based entirely on right-wing Israeli security anti-demographic talk, not mentioning Palestinian human rights once. Their own self-interest says they should pull out of the West Bank and work with the PA to create a Palestinian state, and they just can’t. Their Jewish refuge is going to be swamped with non-Jewish people, which is a boderline apocalypse in their eyes, and they will have no one to blame but themselves and their greed. It’s one of the more delicious ironies in history, even though it’s going to create a lot more unnecessary suffering on both sides. If you’re so concerned with keeping Israel majority-Jewish than what the hell are you doing holding on to the Palestinian territories? If Israel ran off and took over China, I expect a few years down the road some learned Israeli demographers would say “Oh, my goodness! We’re in danger of becoming a minority! Where did all these Chinese people come from?” Well….
So. I imagine everyone else has gone home by now but I invite you to offer a substantive response for once.
May 18th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Re spokeytown
Unlike goat fuckers like Mr. abb1 and niafs like Mr. Arnold Evans, Mr. spokeytown has actually lived in Palestine on both sides of he fence so he has some basis for his comments. The fact is that the Palestinians and the Israelis just don’t like each other at all, which is why a 1 state solution as proposed by Mr. Evans is totally unworkable at this time. These types of multiethnic states don’t have a very good track record (e.g. the former Czechoslovakia, the former Yugoslavia) and the example of Lebanon is not very encouraging either.
At this point, I don’t see how Israel can come to a settlement with the Palestinians when the Palestinians can’t come to a settlement with each other. In fact, it would appear that we are heading towards a 3 state solution.
May 19th, 2009 at 2:49 am
Bullshit. The guy is a clown who pretends to be something he is not and doesn’t know what he is talking about.
“working with Palestinian citizens of Israel” – what does it even mean? “Israelis and Palestinians have been at each others’ throats for about a century” – is it even possible to write anything more bullshit than this?
As far as the culture goes, Zionists, of course, destroyed the culture, killed the language, and created a completely different and utterly obscene “culture” (if one can call it that), that you, guys, represent here. Just like the Nazis in Germany in the 1930s.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:57 am
Well, come to think of it, at least the Nazis didn’t replace German language with some bullshit ancient “Aryan” language; have to give them that.
May 19th, 2009 at 7:25 am
Re abb1
It’s certainly to the advantage of the pro-Israel folks who comment here to have extremists like abb1, Richard Steven Hack, and Arnold Evans around to discredit the pro-Palestinian position. Keep it up Mr. abb1, you’re the best friend Israel has!
May 19th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Why, I have nothing against Israel; but it’s a shame that the despicable cult of Zionism controls this unfortunate state.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:35 am
abb1;
You are aware that there are Palestinians who live in Israel and are Israeli citizens, right? Some call them Israeli Arabs? Does this ring any bells? And you are aware of organizations, sometimes called NGOs, that work on behalf of some group of people or other? Like for civil rights and economic development and so forth? Look up Adalah, Ittijah, the Galilee Society, etc. I worked for them. I was also working for similar organizations in the West Bank at the same time. For a year. For no money. In the middle of a war zone. Where people I knew got killed by the IDF, and a co-worker almost wound up on a bus that blew up. So I get pretty upset when some fucker like you starts calling me an anti-Palestinian racist Nazi, even though I shouldn’t because it’s the internet and there’s no accounting for dumbass trolls like yourself. If we were having this conversation in person your ass would be well kicked by now, but on the other hand we wouldn’t have this conversation in person because you wouldn’t have the balls to say any of this in person. Oh well.
So fuck it, either you believe my story or you don’t, I don’t care. But I gotta ask, what’s your level of expertise? I’m still waiting for any sort of substantive reply to anything I’ve said, and your answers lead me to beleive you don’t actually know shit about anything.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:25 am
My level of expertise in what? To see a bunch heavily-armed militant racists coming from Europe and all over the world and ripping the place apart for decades, murdering and plundering the native population – what kind of expertise do I need to see it?
You seriously think you with your phony stories can make it look like something else, like “pox on both their houses” or whatever the hell your “a case can be made” stuff means? Oh no, you won’t, mister. Not with me.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:54 am
The key to internet conversation is to recognize as early as possible those with whom a productive discussion is possible.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
OK, post 44 pretty much tells me all I need to know about where you’re at. You don’t know what you’re talking about. You don’t know anything about the situation beyond what you’ve read on some pamphlet or something. You’ve never been over there and you don’t know anybody who has been. This conflict more than any other has a tendency to attract people who see things in absolute black and white, and you are exhibit A for that. I’ve spent years working with Palestinians and I continue to do so today, and my indictments of Zionism are much much stronger than yours because I actually know what the fuck I’m talking about. But Zionists are not actually orcs or vampires or whatever your comic book view of the world thinks they are, and when I point this out, you get pissed off and start slinging names. In fact, because you don’t actually know anything and I’ve been running circles around you all day yesterday and today, you duck the issue and accuse me of making up stories. I’ve raised several substantive issues* and asked you several times to grapple with those–you don’t have to agree with them, just give an intelligent takedown of them, and you could grapple with them even if I am a total fraud like you say–and you have completely failed to do so. This has gone on for two days now and you still haven’t come up with one serious contribution. Not one.
I know what I’m talking about. You’re an uninformed jackass. I never in a million years thought I would agree with SLC on an Israel/Palestine thread, because he’s another total bigot troll, but when he says “Keep it up Mr. abb1, you’re the best friend Israel has!” he’s exactly right.
OK, I’m out.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
You sure sound like you’ve spent years bullshitting and concern-trolling, that’s for sure; inventing painful dilemmas where these are none.
The key to internet conversation is to recognize as early as possible those with whom a productive discussion is possible.
Productive discussion on the internet? Ha ha. What does it even mean, Jack? Whatever this “productive discussion” thing is, it certainly isn’t a common way to have fun in a comment thread. I’ve hardly ever seen one that could be categorized as “productive discussion”.
May 21st, 2009 at 8:17 am
Unless something wierd happens then this is more of the same old boring posturing that won’t ever actually lead to a two-state solution. The Palestinian national movement has been seriously diluted. The current leadership isn’t credible, there are no leaders on the horizon, and the Palestinians are starting to depend on extended families, religious authorities, and so forth to solve problems.