Apr 23rd, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Waterboarding: The Song
Watch and be astounded by the legal “reasoning” involved in the claim that waterboarding—deliberately initiating the sensation of drowning—does not involve inflicting severe suffering on the waterboarding victim:
To state the obvious, if you’re doing something to someone such that the idea is that it’s so unpleasant that they’ll do whatever you want to get them to stop, then the amount of suffering you’re inflicting has to be pretty severe. The point of waterboarding, according to the memos, is that it puts a lot of coercive power in the hands of the interrogator. It does so by inflicting “severe suffering.” There’s no other way for it to work.
27 Responses to “Waterboarding: The Song”
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April 23rd, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Water-boarding is only “the sensation of drowning” in that it IS drowning. Drowning while attempting to control the subsequent survival of the drowned person, which is not guaranteed.
I hate when the announcers on NPR repeatedly characterize, in what must be the official manner, water-boarding as “simulated drowning”.
“It is not simulated” I scream at the radio “It is controlled. It IS drowning!”
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:25 pm
What’s interesting is how the Khmer Rouge used waterboarding. To them, it was a last resort. First, they’d strap you to a metal bed frame and beat the living crap out of you. When that didn’t work, they’d electrocute your genitals. When that didn’t work, they’d move on to the “Palestinian Hanging,” which is basically crucifixion that stops just short of death. Only after all of those failed would they bring out the big guns. That was when you got waterboarded. And they always got the answer they wanted with waterboarding.
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:28 pm
It wasn’t last resort for the Khmer Rouge. They just saved the worst for last. You were going to get the full works regardless of how cooperative you tried to be.
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:35 pm
“You were going to get the full works regardless of how cooperative you tried to be”
That’s actually not true. If it were, there would be an equal amount of the related equipment. At Tuol Sleng, there were fourteen bed frames, four positions for Palestinian Hangings, and one waterboard. So they obviously used the techniques with differing frequency. And the more extreme, the less frequent. Granted, waterboarding is quick, so you can get away with only one waterboard. But it’s still pretty clear that a lot of people were just beaten and then killed without going through the other steps.
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Matthew Yglesias
Do you agree with Atul Gawande that solitary confinement is torture? If not, why not?
Why should anyone take seriously your expressions of moral outrage over the waterboarding of terrorists given your utter indifference to what Gawande plausibly claims to be the ongoing torture of tens of thousands of inmates in America’s prisons?
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Good song!
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:02 pm
and one waterboard. So they obviously used the techniques with differing frequency. And the more extreme, the less frequent. Granted, waterboarding is quick, so you can get away with only one waterboard.
Actually, there were at least three water-based torture devices used at Tuel Sleng.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/waterboardingdotorg/2158848632/in/set-72157603405288553/
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:02 pm
The problem with the Khmer Rouge’s enhanced interrogation techniques is that they carried it overboard. If they hadn’t have been so extreme about it, no one would be whining about the terrible ol’ Khmer Rouge torturing today.
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:04 pm
And Matt Yglesias, until you announce whether or not you agree with the Akond of Swat, no one will take you seriously.
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:06 pm
It kind of worries me that there’s so much focus on suffering–it’s conceivable that in the future we could directly compel behavior without inflicting suffering, with the flip of a switch. This would be not only just as ethically misguided as torture, but even more open to abuse to a state interested in confirmation of it’s false theories.
By any measure, the amount of suffering inflicted by American torture since 9/11 has been a tiny share of the world’s suffering during the same period, which is why naive utilitarians are frequently arguing on the side of torture.
The worst thing about coercive interrogation is not the amount of suffering it causes, but that it’s coercive in a much more fundamental way than anything else the government does. Usually, government coercion is “do this or else!”, with “or else” being fines, confinement, injury, or execution. And many men and women of conscience accepted these penalties rather than comply with something they believed to be unjust.
But with Platonic Ideal coercive interrogation, there is no “or else”–it’s neurologically impossible to refuse to comply. It’s worse than an infliction of suffering–it’s a destruction of conscience.
Documenting the specific barbarism that occurred, and the further horrors contemplated in the memos is still important so that people understand that the prospect of torture always makes the government go completely crazy. But even if coercive interrogation were painless and effective, it would still be wrong and dangerous.
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Only after all of those failed would they bring out the big guns. That was when you got waterboarded…And the more extreme [the torture], the less frequent[ly torturers resorted to it].
Hardly. I’ve got to expect this is like any other bureaucracy, where the pain in the ass factor to the torturers matters a lot. I mean, beating a guy with sticks is pretty tiring and you get blisters from the sticks, and probably your hands hurt from absorbing the shock. I’d assume waterboarding has a pretty high pain in the ass factor because it probably takes a lot of guys to do it, and you’re gonna get all wet and cold, and also you gotta grab the guy’s face which not just everyone is willing to do.
My thought is that’s the real reason you see so much use of stress positions and putting people into boxes, and prolongued exposure to cold. I mean, once you get a guy into position or put him in the cold room, you can go off and grab a coffee, or watch TV or read the newspaper or something. And I mean, you can get guys who aren’t really into torture to be part of that, in a way that you can’t get a lot of guys to beat a guy with sticks or cup their hands around his nose and mouth as he drowns. Kind of like most people could monitor a surgical post-op room without queasiness, but many people would have a visceral problem actually being in an OR, and there’s fewer still who are able to make that very first incision.
Honestly, there’s a real “give me a break” factor to this. Seriously, torturers have built their systems around a fine calibration of suffering? What, they know that being beaten is worse than hours in a stress position? Being waterboarded is worse than, what, a mock execution? Lying about threats to rape a person is worse than lying about threats to kill their family?
Honestly, it’s torture. The kind of people who do this shit are evil, not smart.
Not to mention, it’s a myth to suggest “everyone will break” when it comes to torture. For instance, Irena Sendler, a Righteous Gentile in WWII Poland who snuck Jewish babies out of the ghetto and hid them. The Nazis tortured her to find the kids, broke both her legs and her arms, and she never told them. Seriously, we think we torture better than the Nazis? Zat ve have more vays zan zem of makink you talk?
There’s this whole belief that torture is like magic. You know, it’s “what it takes.” But it doesn’t work all that much more reliably than other methods, even if your victim actually HAS information you want.
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:32 pm
I have to like the notion of “pain and suffering” as a unitary notion, such that something that only inflicts suffering but not physical pain must be OK. I can only conclude that Bybeee, Yoo, and the rest of them are aficionados of sadomasochistic sex, because that’s the only context in which you could be habituated to the notion that pain can be OK if it doesn’t cause any suffering.
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:33 pm
On the subject of Mr. Bybee’s legal reasoning, this might mildly amuse.
http://mine.icanhascheezburger.com/view.aspx?ciid=4015178
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Drowning isn’t fatal because your lungs fill with water. Drowning is fatal because it cuts off your supply of oxygen. Not letting someone breathe isn’t simulated not letting someone breathe.
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Consumatopia,
For what it is worth, I agree. As I would put it, the fundamental nature of the crime is the dehumanization, the taking of a rational autonomous being and deliberately trying to turn them into something else. Pain or suffering is just the chosen method of the torturer to this immoral end.
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:07 pm
On the simulation issue: following some of the other commentators, I would suggest that waterboarding is very real suffocation, or asphyxiation if you prefer. As such there is nothing simulated about it.
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:17 pm
It’s in the memos that if the prisoner is doing too good a job figuring out some way to breath that the interrogators were to pinch their nostrils and cover their mouth anyway.
April 23rd, 2009 at 9:13 pm
The guy who does those songs is friends with someone I know.
I just thought I’d mention that.
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Why should anyone take seriously your expressions of moral outrage over the waterboarding of terrorists given your utter indifference to what Gawande plausibly claims to be the ongoing torture of tens of thousands of inmates in America’s prisons?
Who says I’m utterly indifferent to prison conditions?
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:10 pm
Give the CIA credit. They aren’t a bunch of hackers. They did not waste time ripping off fingernails or zapping genitals or mutilating their subjects. Screams and pain. So trite. Such a waste of time. Pain can be mastered, prepared for. Pain can harden a subject. Pain concentrates the mind.
No no. Death. The CIA understands death. Waterboarding is allowing the body to dance with death at varying levels. That is the beauty of it. Done right, you bring death only to the subjects body, not his mind. The subject’s mind may seek death, want death, but his body will violently twist and writhe in a desperate effort to live. Every muscle and sinew in the body will strain against restraints. It is a life and death struggle on an inclined board.
If waterboarding is to be considered a torture then it is the creme de la creme of tortures. But I believe it stands alone and above torture. It is something worse.
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:24 pm
“As I would put it, the fundamental nature of the crime is the dehumanization”
That’s really it. And that’s the one thing I really learned from visiting Tuol Sleng. My motorbike driver got me a special tour guide, for an extra five bucks, of course. But that tour guide had actually been a guard at Tuol Sleng, so he knew what happened. And that’s exactly what he said. The purpose was to strip all of humanity away from a person. We can talk about techniques, but different people are susceptible to different techniques. You want to rip my finger nails out? Fine, I’ve done that to myself on a bet. I can put my cigarette out on the back of my hand just for fun. And I don’t even flinch. But can I be dehumanized? Surely. Take my breath away and I’m your bitch. I may have an extreme ability to endure pain, but I’m a sucker when comes to not breathing. And everyone is, that’s why waterboarding works so well. When someone stops you from breathing, you will say exactly what they want you to say. Whether it’s true or not is completely irrelevant at that point. So if I ever have to face that crap again, I have a simple statement: Tell me what you want me to say and I’ll say it, and let’s just avoid the trauma. It’s easier for both of us that way.
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:02 pm
“I’d assume waterboarding has a pretty high pain in the ass factor because it probably takes a lot of guys to do it, and you’re gonna get all wet and cold, and also you gotta grab the guy’s face which not just everyone is willing to do.”
You obviously don’t understand how it works. First of all, you beat the crap out of the guy so he’s docile. At that point, it takes two guys to hold him down and one two pour the water. So, we’re talking three people. It takes three people for a Palestinian Hanging. And it takes three people to tie someone to a bed frame so he can get the crap beat out of him. In every physical technique, it takes three people to do it. You can always pull it off with two people, but that would make the situation much more dangerous for those who are doing the torture. So you always use three.
But psychological techniques are quite different. Multiple people help, but a single interrogator can be even better if he’s good at it. I’ve been through psychological techniques with multiple people and a single person, and I didn’t even stand a chance either way. And that’s an interesting point. I’m pretty smart (155 IQ), but I’m no match for someone who’s trained in manipulating people. I can see what techniques they’re using, but I’m still susceptible to them. And I’m not susceptible to pain techniques because I can completely eliminate pain. But take away breathing, and I’m completely hopeless.
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:52 pm
“Actually, there were at least three water-based torture devices used at Tuel Sleng.”
Of those three, only the left one is a waterboard. The one on the right is a bucket they used to revive people who passed out during the Palestinian Hanging. Drowning produces a shock response that revives anyone who is not dead yet. That peg on the side was used to give them a little extra punch. I never found out what the one in the middle was used for. My tour guide didn’t know, and he was a guard there. But look at that tile pattern. I still can’t look at an orange and white checkerboard pattern without my stomach turning. To me, it just says “Tuol Sleng.”
April 24th, 2009 at 12:13 am
“Honestly, it’s torture. The kind of people who do this shit are evil, not smart.”
No, they actually are quite smart and they know human nature quite well. In fact, they have driven humans to such extreme extents that they know human nature better than anyone. Are they evil? I’m not sure. Any of us can fall to that level. I’d like to think I couldn’t possibly do that to someone. But with the right brainwashing, who knows? And that’s what’s interesting about how the Cambodians feel about the trials going on now. They don’t like them one bit. They would rather see a full reckoning where the Khmer Rouge, the Vietnamese, the Chinese, the Thai, and especially the United States faces up to what happened. Their blood is very much on our hands, and we can’t just pass it off as KR insanity. We killed a million Cambodians before this ever got started. And we put Lon Nol in power. We did everything we possibly could to ensure that the Khmer Rouge would take over. We could have just stuck with Sihanouk, but he wanted the carpet bombing of Cambodia to stop. So we took him out, and forced the carnage to begin. And in our crazy delusional world, a fascist like Lon Nol seemed reasonable to us. Too bad we didn’t think to ask the people of Cambodia. Turns out, they didn’t like him, and the Khmer Rouge were the only people who could take him out.
April 24th, 2009 at 2:11 am
n.b.- Same guy who wrote the “1600 Pennsylvania Ave.” (RIP) song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm_XoG1BqSY
April 24th, 2009 at 3:22 am
Let’s speak frankly, the threat of death while in captivity must at least be aggravated assault, aside from many other felonies under various state, federal and international statutes, including most especially The Covenant Against Torture (formerly known as the Convention) and other related statutes, though it does fall short of mayhem, hopefully that isn’t the final legal defense for the offendants in question, for their own sake.
April 24th, 2009 at 6:49 am
fostert and max424 – thank you for putting the waterboarding question into some of the context that’s been missing from far too much of the debate. One thing that’s always rung a bit hollow for me with Hollywood depictions of torture is the emphasis on acute physical pain; from my own experiences with severe pain, I don’t doubt the body’s capacity to adapt and steel itself against horrific extremes after the initial shock and terror have been absorbed. But to bring someone to the precipice of death – and I can’t get on board with the “simulation” line, either – should be regarded as an extreme beyond the repeated-assault, humiliation, deprivation, and fear involved in most torture techniques.
Would it be too much to ask to waterboard the Cheney family to see if they really think it’s not torture?