Taxation With Overrepresentation
Very curious account of a Nebraska Tea Party:
Hundreds of Nebraskans chanted no taxation without representation in protest of increased government spending spawned by the stimulus bill at the state capitol Saturday
The tea party style protest is intended to mimic Revolutionary War era protests where citizens believed they were being unfairly taxed.
Here in Washington DC, your humble blogger and about 600,000 other people are living and paying taxes to a United States government that does not allow us to elect representatives to congress. Whether you think that’s fair or not, what we’re doing is paying taxes without representation. The 1.8 million Nebraskans are very much represented in congress. There’s Rep. Jeff Fortenberry, Rep. Lee Terry, and Rep. Adrian M. Smith in the House of Represenatives along with Senators Ben Nelson and Mike Johanns. Indeed, with a mere 0.6 percent of the nation’s population, Nebraska gets to elect fully 2 percent of the Senators. If anything, Nebraskans have taxation with overrepresentation.
98 Responses to “Taxation With Overrepresentation”
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April 12th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Not to mention, Nebraska is deep enough in the West that it probably gets back more federal tax dollars per capita than it pays. But you’ll have to double-check that.
April 12th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Hundreds of Nebraskans chanted no taxation without representation in protest of Obama’s middle class tax cut plan because they were misled by conservative organizers into believing that they are having their taxes raised.
Fixed.
April 12th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Matt, you’re VERY close to a career-making set of graphics: the parameters oughta be 1) population, 2) representation in Congress, and 3) ratio of taxes paid to Federal spending received.
Hell, throw in government-supplied revenue (e.g., Alaskan oil) and you could define 2012.
April 12th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
well, see, their problem is that their representatives aren’t in charge any more, so their interests aren’t running the show.
April 12th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
It’s unfair to have a law that Nebraskans don’t agree with.
April 12th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
I’ve got kids, young ones, and last I checked they aren’t allowed to vote and therefore aren’t represented in Congress. And their taxes are going up, because of the idiocy we see in Washington.
And, btw, this whole bit about which states receive the most cash should really take a break. I mean, don’t you have to update it for the trillions in bailouts?
April 12th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
4%! C’mon I know you can’t spell, but this is basic math.
April 12th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
But unlike Nebraska, Washington is full of black people! Everyone knows the Founders didn’t care about them.
April 12th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
I’ve got kids, young ones, and last I checked they aren’t allowed to vote and therefore aren’t represented in Congress. And their taxes are going up, because of the idiocy we see in Washington.
I don’t remember ever filing a tax return as a young child. What exactly are you talking about?
April 12th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Perhaps the proper response to the protest is not to seat Nebraska’s representatives in the House and Senate. If they’re going to plead taxation without representation, it seems only fair to take them at their word.
April 12th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
“I’ve got kids, young ones, and last I checked they aren’t allowed to vote and therefore aren’t represented in Congress.”
Minors have a Constitutional right to vote? Who knew?
April 12th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Not only overrepresented in the senate, but also in the Electoral College as well. No pleasing these folks I guess.
April 12th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
It’s unfair to have a law that Nebraskans don’t agree with.
April 12th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Actually, they are “represented” in Congress since they count towards your state’s population which determines how many Representatives you get. They don’t get to vote but you and the others in your district get to choose who “represents” them. Remind you of anything?
April 12th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Alright, flash poll: Who’s dumber, Thomas, or your average Nebraskan tea-bagger?
April 12th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
DC has a Constitutional right to federal elections? Who knew?
April 12th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
I strongly, passionately, and with every fiber of my being endorse Thomas’s doctrine of extending suffrage to people under 18 who work and pay taxes. If that doctrine comes out of the Teabagging movement, it will turn out to actually be a positive force for democracy and the well-being of our society.
Bravo, Thomas. This is a valuable contribution you’ve made.
So…how do you think they’ll vote?
April 12th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
When someone tells me that 50%+1 of the voters in a given state are teabaggers, I’ll care, albeit in a snarky way. Not until then, however.
April 12th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
I feel your pain. Here in Minnesota, we’re actually already constitutionally required to have two Senators. But we have one – to the glee of Constitution-loving Republicans like Cornyn.
Had half a mind to make a sign “No Taxation without Representation: Seat Al” and find our local teabag party. But then I read that they’ll be packing heat.
April 12th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
As a native (and former) Nebraskan, I can tell you that the people there just aren’t that smart. They are brainwashed Republican. Not conservative or any value system, just Republican. They vote Republican even when its not in their interest. Go to just about any small town and you will see them withering with few jobs and few prospects yet despite making low wages vote for the Republicans whose policies the last several decades have done nothing for them. There are some changing, I actually have a couple of farmer uncles who voted for Obama this time which shocked me. Maybe there is hope for Nebrask. Likely they will continue to vote Republian and watch Fox but maybe, just maybe the Rep party will return to conservative values (personal responsibility, limited govt (which includes wars, religion, personal choice). I am not holding my breath. BTW, they produced a terrific senator in Chuck Hagel. One of the first to question the Bushies and one they wouldn’t vote for again if he ran but he was right on just about everything.
April 12th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
It’s sort of cute that they’re chanting “No taxation without representation.” They’re very proud of the tiny bit of knowledge they’ve got and they’re eager to show it off, however irrelevant it may be to the situation at hand.
They might just as well be chanting “Fifty-four forty or fight!” That too would show that they paid attention for at least a fleeting moment in one of their US History classes back in the fifth grade, and it has the virtue of being equally relevant.
April 12th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
They may be strapping at the teabag party, but they’re much more likely to shoot themselves in the foot. (Difficult when said foot is in the mouth, but that they can do!)
April 12th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Teabagger:
I’m just sayin’…
April 12th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
It’s not a east/west issues, its more a Republican vs. Democrat issue.
I put together a little map on the states and federal spending per $ of federal taxes paid, based off data from The Tax Foundation.
Check out the map. At first glance it would look like a presidential election, but its not! http://monarch.tamu.edu/~smrs/14265354.gif
Oh, and in 2005 NE gots only $1.10 in federal spending per $1 in federal taxes, so they aren’t as bad as say AK or MS.
April 12th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
“Oh, and in 2005 NE gots only $1.10 in federal spending per $1 in federal taxes, so they aren’t as bad as say AK or MS.”
I’d say 10% return on investment is pretty good, even for 2005.
April 12th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Captain Jack Aubrey instructs a midshipman:
‘What do you know about the last American war?’
‘Not very much, sir, except that the French and Spaniards joined in and were finely served out for doing so.’
‘Very true. Do you know how it began?’
‘Yes, sir. It was about tea, which they did not choose to pay duty on. They called out No reproduction without copulation and tossed it into Boston harbour.’
Jack frowned, considered, and said, ‘Well, in any event they accomplished little or nothing at sea, that bout.’ He passed on to the necessary allowance for dip and refraction to be made in working lunars, matters with which he was deeply familiar; but as he tuned his fiddle that evening he said, ‘Stephen, what was the Americans’ cry in 1775?’
‘No representation, no taxation.’
‘Nothing about copulation?’
‘Nothing at all. At that period the mass of Americans were in favour of copulation.’
‘So it could not have been No reproduction without copulation’
‘Why, my dear, that is the old natural philosopher’s watchword, as old as Aristotle, and quite erroneous. Do but consider how the hydra and her kind multiply without any sexual commerce of any sort. Leeuenhoek proved it long ago, but still the more obstinate repeat the cry, like so many parrots.’
‘Well, be damned to taxation, in any case. Shall we attack the andante?’
April 12th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
@Thomas
So true. Turns out that things the US does actually affect other countries and their economies. In fairness we should also give their citizens the vote.
Let’s start with Iraq, obviously, given the recent war. But we should probably, right after that, give the vote to all the countries the US has fscked up in the recent past: Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Vietnam Laos & Cambodia, Congo, just to name a few.
April 12th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Well DC took in $5.55 for every $1.00 they paid out in Federal taxes, so I would say that 455% ROI is a whole lot better!
April 12th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
“Not to mention, Nebraska is deep enough in the West that it probably gets back more federal tax dollars per capita than it pays.”
Only by a little bit (about a 10% subsidy). But we Coloradans have to pay that subsidy and the subsidies of Wyoming and Idaho, too. Screw that, if they want to live on government money coming from Colorado, they have to stop voting Republican. I’m tired of having to support these white rural Christian fucks who keep having children they can’t support. But I have to admit to being impressed by their mental transmissions. They can pop that clutch and go from complaining about urban black kids getting welfare to demanding their own welfare in less than a second. But if you really know how I feel about Nebraska, watch a few episodes of South Park. Matt and Trey nail it.
April 12th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
Sorry, Jimboslice, I didn’t see your map before I wrote that. Your map says the same thing, but you deserve credit for coming up with a cool and informative map. See that blue rectangle surrounded by a sea of red? That’s my state. Ever wonder why we hate our neighbors? They’re all blood leeching welfare cheats, that’s why. And I have to support those fucks even when they vote against me. If we could grow some corn, we’d know exactly where to shove our cornstalks. And I’m talkin’ to you, Nebraska.
April 12th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
“Hundreds of Nebraskans chanted no taxation without representation”
Hundreds? Only hundreds? Let’s put it this way, when Nebraska plays the University of Colorado in Boulder, 30,000 Nebraskans show up in our town. There ain’t shit to do in Nebraska, which is why they are happy to drive to Boulder without tickets just to wear red and party in a parking lot. And they’ll do that by the tens of thousands. And they only got hundreds for this event? If their ain’t a rodeo in town, it’s hard to see how they couldn’t get more people. Hell, cow-patty bingo draws more people than that. And if you have to ask what that is, you don’t want to know.
April 12th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS!! FOR HILLARY!!!
April 12th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
South Park takes place in Colorado. Just sayin’.
April 12th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
I do so enjoy reading the right-wing talking points from the trolls in Matt’s comments section.
One of my particular favorites is the theme of Michelle Malkin’s “generational theft” or “taxing our children”. Even MN Gov Pawlenty on Saturday’s rebuttal to Obama’s weekly address said that he fears the “potential” for new taxes for next generations of Americans.
If you actually look at the outline of the proposed budget over 8 years and listen to the quotes from Orzag and Goolsbee, you will see that the deficit spending is to PEAK this year and bring down the deficit over the next 4 years.
What this means is that these costs will NOT be passed on to future generations. Instead, tax revenue from NOT eliminating capital gains taxes or the estate tax and keeping the largest wage earners around 39%, combined with tough choices in subsequent years will bring DOWN the deficit.
But this is perhaps far too complex and requires to much reading to understand. Instead, right wingers are just eating up the talking points like they were eating candy.
The spending proposed in the budget is NOT a steady straight-line trejectory. If you believe that, then you will believe ANYTHING that comes out of the mouth of Sean Hannity and Boss Limbaugh.
April 12th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
I am Tea Bagger manning the front lines. We haul bags of tea. We tip bags of tea into water. It is hard work. But we are proud of it.
Our officers demand we assemble. Through bullhorns they inform us we are no longer Tea Baggers, will no longer haul and tip. We are to be henceforward known as Pork and Beaners.
There is a short silence, and then a ripple goes through the ranks. A former Tea Bagger, now a Pork and Beaner, cries out what we all are thinking, “We are defending Pigs and Mexicans? Never!” Guns are drawn and shots are fired. Officers and Pork and Beaners go down. Blood from the dead and wounded flows and mixes with spilled pork and beans.
I was happy Tea Bagger. Now I am a Pork and Beaner. I have become confused about our mission.
Signed,
Nutbag
April 12th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
People in Idaho tend to feel that because the federal government controls so much of the land in the state that it effects them in ways that they lack the ability to really control. So for instance there was a big outcry over the reintroduction of wolves. As a practical matter the concerns were basically insane, but I was proud to help design GPS collars for wolves as part of an effort to address local concerns.
If DC does get voting rights congress will continue to meddle in its affairs in a way that may disturb people there. Its important to remember that it was hardly tax policy that was the main concern of Americans before the revolution. We wanted to push west stealing territory from native Americans while still having military protection from Great Britian.
April 12th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
“South Park takes place in Colorado. Just sayin’.”
Yeah, but listen to how they talk about Nebraska. And how they portray Cartman’s Nebraskan relatives. Or when they portray the Nebraska-Colorado border, it’s beautiful on the Colorado side, and a barren, brown wasteland on the Nebraska side. That really is how we think about Nebraska.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
If people such as Thomas are soooo concerned about passing the debt on to his/ our children, shouldn’t he be asking to have taxes raised now so that the debt goes away before his children have to deal with it?
Just saying.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Dave @ 8, Nebraska elects 2% of the nation’s senators, not 4%. Matthew is indeed correct.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
As a Green Card holder who lives in America and pays American taxes without any representation (I don’t have the legal right to vote), I say, phooey to the Nebraskan Republican wingnuts!
April 12th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
It wouldn’t think it’d be that hard to engineer that. Just come up with some factoid that 54% of the country are conservatives and 40% are liberals, and run from there.
April 13th, 2009 at 12:04 am
April 13th, 2009 at 1:20 am
I wonder where DC gets the money to give each kid 25k a year.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:02 am
Only by a little bit (about a 10% subsidy). But we Coloradans have to pay that subsidy and the subsidies of Wyoming and Idaho, too. Screw that, if they want to live on government money coming from Colorado, they have to stop voting Republican. I’m tired of having to support these white rural Christian fucks who keep having children they can’t support. But I have to admit to being impressed by their mental transmissions.
Western states have more of the things that the federal government pays for (highways, Indian reservations, federal land), and less of the things that state governments pay for (police, schools, municipalities; people, in general). Plus — did you notice we’re real poor out here?
Seriously. I’m a liberal Democrat in a place where it’s hard to be a liberal Democrat, but fuck your noblesse oblige. It’s amongst the reasons that Democrats never win out here.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:36 am
Freaking Nebraskans. How many small towns have no cable or broadband, few satellite subscribers and fewer internet connections, all topped off with virtually zero subs to big national papers? Which means, you know where they get their extensive national news coverage from.
The radio. Talk radio. By necessity as much as choice. We need to colonize these places with broadband connections, public libraries, publically funded arts centers, and transit to actual fucking civilization. IOW, we need to bring civilization to the savages. The Spainards were right! Who’da thunk it?
When they get more information and are provided a context and media for understanding the world aside from AM radio and local news, how much you bet these stone-agers change a little? Or at least, how much you bet access to these resources is a condition necessary for change?
April 13th, 2009 at 4:30 am
so now we are degrading people who protest? here in jersey we get less back from the fedeal government then we send, we have a 7% sales tax, property taxes average $7,000 per home. what a deal. on april 15th, democrats and republicans, liberals and conservatives will gather at 5 different locations in new jersey to begin the process of letting our politicians know that we are unhappy. the banks, AIG, GM and other corporations are getting all our money. the few hundred thousand that gather accross the country on april 15th are the beginning of a movement that will express our unhappiness with this constant increase in our taxes.in local,state, federal, sales, and property taxes i pay out about 60% of what i make. should i be happy about that? since biden says its my patriotic duty to pay them i guess i’m a super patriot. if you don’t agree with me that our dollars are being wasted, thats fine. but don’t make personal attacks on us, that just says you can’t make a good arguement on why i should be happy paying out 60% of my income to various levels of our government. i’m sure that when our founders started our country there were some who supported king george, they were called ‘loyalists’. learn more about the tea parties before you call us wingnuts, open your mind, this is bi-partisan, i voted for obama, my friend voted for mccain, we are both taking part in the tea party. we must take our country back, the politicians are becoming arrogant, they don’t listen to us anymore. join us.
April 13th, 2009 at 6:26 am
Jim,
If you are paying 60% of your income in taxes, you are a fool. Get an accountant. In your income bracket, you can certainly afford one.
April 13th, 2009 at 7:11 am
Dumb sloganeering in the Tea Party movement surprises you? Let’s remember that the original Boston Tea Party was in response to a tax _cut_–the duties on tea were lowered so much that legal tea could compete with the smuggled stuff, threatening the interests of the money men in Boston like John Hancock. The Sons of Liberty were the first Astroturf movement in American history.
April 13th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Heh. If these demonstrations are so organized, the message would be more pointed don’t you think? Like the protests organized and promoted by Democratic elites and organizations?
For the financially illiterate, here’s a graphic that nicely summarizes the reason taxpayers of both parties are protesting.
And to put the cherry on top here’s tape of Jane(let’s blackface Lieberman)Hamsher ducking a question about the claim Fox News was financing the protests.
April 13th, 2009 at 8:51 am
That chart shows projected Deficits. To me that shows that taxpayers are being UNDER taxed, not OVER taxed. I don’t know why paying less $$ than it takes to run the government would cause people to protest. It really shocks me. If people are really concerned about passing on debt to future generations they should be asking for taxes to be raised now.
As it stand the people aged 30-60 have grossly underpaid taxes during their peak earning years and are using their political sway to push the debt on to future generations. By calling for the lowering of taxes now these people are being greedy and they are advocating a form of child abuse. These tax protesters must really hate our county.
April 13th, 2009 at 9:06 am
They might just as well be chanting “Fifty-four forty or fight!”
I’m holding out for the “Tippecanoe and Tyler, too!” party.
April 13th, 2009 at 9:21 am
If these demonstrations are so organized, the message would be more pointed don’t you think? Like the protests organized and promoted by Democratic elites and organizations?
I can’t tell if this is parody, sarcasm, or stupidity. If it’s parody, well done. But just in case it’s stupidity, I’ll inform you that this is ridiculous. Aren’t protests organized by Democratic organizations perfect examples of disorganization and message drift? How many articles and blog posts were published during the Bush years about people getting involved in activism for the first time to protest the war and attending a rally and seeing “free Mumia” signs?
Whether or not the message is pointed has absolutely nothing to do with the sponsorship or lack thereof of a protest.
April 13th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Mea Culpa. Taxpayers are new to protesting, we generally don’t attend or participate such things. It will take some time before attaining the level of sophistication you have, around public demonstrations.
April 13th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Jimboslice: You need to adjust your ratio of federal taxes to federal benefits for DC to take account of the value of the property tax exemptions and other benefits provided by DC to the federal government. I don’t know how easy it is to quantify that, but I have a feeling it tips the scales quite a bit in the other direction.
April 13th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Hey, Nick, chill out. I’m more than a little offended.
You wrote:
The post mentions “hundreds of Nebraskans”. Hundreds. That isn’t a big number here–my daughter has over 2000 people in her high school.
There are thousands of people across the country playing Tea Party right now, and most of them aren’t in Nebraska.
In the rural areas of Nebraska, you’ll find many places without cable. But without broadband, satellite, or internet? Fairly few. To start, there’s a big military base here, and the military loves their communication. Phone lines were laid down en masse in the Cold War era. It just kept going from there. We have a lot of communication options–we gave up smoke signals awhile back…the Surgeon General said they were bad for our health.
Colonize “this,” Nick.
April 13th, 2009 at 10:28 am
I’ve got kids, young ones, and last I checked they aren’t allowed to vote and therefore aren’t represented in Congress. And their taxes are going up, because of the idiocy we see in Washington.
Actually, their taxes (or that is to say, your taxes, since children don’t file) aren’t going up unless you make over $250,000,000.00 a year, since Barack Obama just signed into law a large tax cut.
If, however, you’re concerned that your children don’t have to pay higher taxes in the future when they themselves are working, then you should support paying more in taxes now yourself in order to reduce the deficit.
April 13th, 2009 at 10:32 am
True story: just as people who agree with Shooter242 are the only Real Americans, they are also the only ones who pay taxes.
I swear to God. I read it on the internet.
April 13th, 2009 at 10:45 am
True story: just as people who agree with Shooter242 are the only Real Americans, they are also the only ones who pay taxes.
Well, duh. Haven’t you heard? 40% of the country doesn’t pay any taxes at all! And they’re all fake Americans who vote for a welfare handout.
April 13th, 2009 at 11:13 am
DTM, I SEE YOU ARE ONE OF THE ‘GRAMMAR POLICE’, CHIDING ME OVER MY LACK OF USING UPPER CASE AND LOWER CASE LETTERS. THATS OK, IT MAKES YOU FEEL SUPERIOR. I AM AGAINST VIOLENCE SO YOUR ALLEGATION IS FALSE. AS FOR SPENDING CUTS THE GOVERNMENT MUST BE RESTRICTED TO SPENDING ONLY WHAT REVENUE IT CAN BRING IN, DO YOU REALIZE HOW MUCH IN DEBT WE ARE NOW? WE ARE TECHNICALLY BANKRUPT.WE ARE WORSE OFF THEN GENERAL MOTORS. IF THE DEMOSTATIONS WERE STARTED BY FAUX NEWS IT HAS STILL SPREAD TO ALL GROUPS, JUST NOT TO YOU[ YET].AS FOR SOME WHO WILL SHOW UP PROTESTING THE OTHER ISSUES YOU STATE, WELL THEY CAN DO THAT,BUT THE MAJORITY OF US WILL BE THERE FOR TAXES. LASTLY, TO THE GENTLEMAN THAT SUGGESTED I GET AN ACCOUNTANT, I AM A CPA, THAT IS HOW I KNOW WHERE AND HOW MUCH I ACTUALLY PAY IN TAXES. ADD UP EVERY TAX YOU PAY, AT THE STORE, RESTAURANTS, GASOLINE, PROPERTY, INCOME,ETC….. EVEN THE POOREST WORKING PERSON PAYS ALOT IN TAXES.ADD IT ALL UP, YOU WILL SEE. ALSO, I USED ALL UPPER CASE LETTERS THIS TIME TO BALANCE OUT THE LOWER CASE LETTERS USED IN MY LAST POST. AND, IF I HAVE ONLY GOT 40 OUT THE THE 52 CARDS IN THE DECK, WELL, THATS MORE THEN MOST OF YOU ‘SHEEPLE’ HAVE. WAKE UP.
April 13th, 2009 at 11:16 am
@Stefan #59: I think you have a few extra zeros there.
The principle is sound, though.
April 13th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Only on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays.
On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, FICA taxes are a cruel conspiracy to destroy the middle class, and must be eliminated.
April 13th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Actually Adam I believe the stat is that 47% of Americans pay no income taxes.
April 13th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Jim shouts:
“LASTLY, TO THE GENTLEMAN THAT SUGGESTED I GET AN ACCOUNTANT, I AM A CPA, THAT IS HOW I KNOW WHERE AND HOW MUCH I ACTUALLY PAY IN TAXES. ADD UP EVERY TAX YOU PAY, AT THE STORE, RESTAURANTS, GASOLINE, PROPERTY, INCOME,ETC…”
Then you have a fool for a CPA.
I’ve done exactly the calculation you describe. For our household income in the top 5%, we come out at just shy of 30% in total taxes paid. If you are paying 60%, you need to hire a real accountant.
April 13th, 2009 at 11:35 am
@Stefan #59: I think you have a few extra zeros there.
Gah! Yes, you’re right. It’s $250,000.00
April 13th, 2009 at 11:39 am
joel, you are a liar. do you not count the tax you pay on gasoline, or at restaurants, or on your grocery/ HOW ABOUT TOLL ROADS
April 13th, 2009 at 11:39 am
joel, you are a liar. do you not count the tax you pay on gasoline, or at restaurants, or on your grocery/ HOW ABOUT TOLL ROADS
April 13th, 2009 at 11:54 am
sorry i got cut off. taxes on your phones, cable ,every thing i buy is taxed. everything the poor person buys is taxed. some taxes are hidden, such as the taxes on gasoline, it is all included in the total price. some are there for you to see, like the 7% i pay on meals at a restaurant. you all would be astonished if you knew how much in taxes you really pay, above and beyond what comes out of your paycheck.the poor may not pay income taxes, but they pay all the other taxes.buy a new suit, taxed, buy a cigar, taxed, gosoline taxed, soda taxed, in my state haircuts are taxed. stay at a hotel, lots of taxes on that. what difference does it make if its a city, county, state or federal tax, its money out of my pocket.
April 13th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Good thing there aren’t any taxes besides income taxes.
Predictably enough, flat-taxers are studiously ignorant of the existence of FICA, too.
April 13th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
DTM, its ok, use sarcasm, make fun, be happy. i am not happy about paying all these absurd taxes. we disagree. in this country we can do that, but i pay too much in taxes, be they income or hidden, city state or federal, property or school taxes. or taxes on my haircuts,[and i have less hair then ever]. you can sit back and make your witty remarks but, you pay the same taxes, the only diffeence is you are ok with it, i’m not.
April 13th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
or on your grocery
The tax on my groceries is 0.
States are fascinatingly consistent when it comes to the tradeoffs involved in the taxes they levy. States with sales and income taxes tend to exempt certain things like groceries and clothes from sales taxes and have moderate property taxes. States with no income or sales tax tend to make it up with high meal taxes and property taxes.
What most right-wingers like to do is pretend that they pay property taxes in NJ, income taxes in DC, sales taxes in california, bridge and road tolls in NY, and meal taxes in NH to pretend that they’re getting “taxed to death.”
April 13th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
I pay taxes, too. Among other things, the tax money pays for:
the roads in my neighborhood, city and state, the public schools my kids go to, the police and fire departments, the food and drug inspectors/regulators who ensure that the breakfast cereal I just ate contained what the ingredients label said it did and the prescription medicine I took likewise – I could go on for a while, but that’s my point.
‘Government’ isn’t some malicious ogre that takes our money, eats it and craps waste-fraud-corruption, it’s the sector of our society and polity that does certain things that, most of us most of the time, want done.
If enough people voted Libertarian, we would abolish taxation and private contributions from the people on my street would pay for fixing potholes. But if enough people turned into magical unicorns, traffic would decrease significantly. At this point, they’re about equally likely. If you don’t want more taxation, vote in candidates who you KNOW will reduce it.
The Republicans are not those candidates, based on recent evidence.
April 13th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
DTM, then don’t listen, what you want from me is a detailed list of budget cuts that thousands of people put together. i have neither the time or inclination to do so. and even if i did you would then get to argue about my cuts. sooooooo, just go through life, pay your taxes, even the hidden ones, and don’t complain. who the hell cares.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
DTM you are a tool
April 13th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
I believe you meant $250,000. This is an interesting defense. If you add up all the incomes of people who make a quarter million or more it gives you ~910 billion dollars. The deficit this year is almost 2,000 billion. Even taxing these people at 100% of their wages would not cover even half the governments spending hole this year.
If you think the middle class is going to avoid a tax increase get ready for money printing and hyperinflation straight out of 1920s Germany.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
DTM ok ok ok, not my best work. lets just say that in addition to your job as a ‘grammar cop’ that you are an intellectual moron. do you also troll other sites trying to inflame people of any opinion? do you have any opinions of your own or do you just blindly argue what you were taught? grow a sac, stand up for what you believe in, don’t chatise others for what they believe. do you have any core beliefs? do you not have anything in your life that you would protest about if it was taken away? well my spending power is being eroded, and i’m going to protest it. if you don’t like protests, there are plenty of countries that don’t allow them. so go there. that is why you are a tool, you have no guts.you just troll around, looking to make some intellectual point and put others down. when someone makes a good point you change the subject, you demand that i redo the budget of the entire usa, thinking you have made another good point, then saying you will not debate anyone until they do as you say. my god, you take yourself as an authority on everything. what a tool.i use to know a guy that no matter the subject he would ‘wince’ and take the opposite view. we called him ‘wince’. well you are ‘wince’. i could say that you convinced me of your point, you would ‘wince’ and then disagree with me. let me try, tomorrow will be tuesday, what is your response to that statement. tool.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
my spending power is being eroded, and i’m going to protest it.
You weren’t complaining about your spending power being eroded. You were complaining that your taxes were (not really) being raised.
But I remember your full-throated opposition to the Iraq war and Medicare Part D. That was awesome. Way to stand up to the depredations of the last 8 years of Bush administration malgovernance.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Tyro, if my taxes go up, as they have, i have less spending power. i have been at many protests over Iraq and i think medicare part D needs to go further, but should be ‘means tested’, so you know i am a left of center democrat, never voted for any bush, but i’m fed up with higher and higher taxes. this is not about obama or bush, its about higher and higher taxes. its about getting our government to pay attention to us. if you think they are, fine. i don’t think they are.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Re: Post #45:
ACS claims to be a “liberal Democrat” and then turns arouind and blats about how Democrats never get elected in Western dtates. I submit that he is more likely just another dittohead.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Tyro, if my taxes go up, as they have, i have less spending power.
I don’t believe they have, yet. And won’t unless you are making more than 250k/yr.
I’ve always been unable to understand why people didn’t realize that the Bush tax cuts were ultimately temporary in nature and made an effort to prepare and take advantage of the “good times” while they existed in anticipation of a future point in which taxes were going to inevitably be raised. I can only assume that the bulk of people who make 250k/yr or more aren’t that bright.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Tyro, i do make more then the number you mentioned. in addition, my property taxes went up 9% this year, and tolls on the major highways in my state have just about doubled in the last year. in the past three years the sales tax went from 6% to 7% [not a 1% increase, but an 17%increase]buy a $30,000 car in my state you will now pay $2,100 to the state government,[ instead of $1,800]what happens then? well i have $300 less to spend on other items. multiply these little ‘hidden taxes’ by the number of consummers in my state, and you figure out why business is bad. its because we all, rich, poor and middleclass, have less to spend because the government is getting it. it doesn’t affect me, i’ve been lucky, cuting back to me is dining out less, getting rid of HBO, going less to a basketball game. i’ll live. but how about the working poor, who has to pay the same tolls, sales tax, etc… they may even lose their job because i go out less, then when they collect unemployment, you got it , they have to pay tax on it. the idea that one must pay taxes on unemployment after paying taxes into that system is almost too funny to believe. remember, the less i have to spend makes it more likely someone on the food chain gets laid off. maybe you.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
US GDP was $14.33 trillion. Total government revenues from all sources from all levels of government were $4.8 trillion. That’s about 33%.
To get to 60% is hard. If you are in the top income tax bracket, you are no longer paying payroll taxes on the next dollar earned. If you have high local taxes, they’re deductible from your income tax.
To get to 60%, you’d need property taxes that were very high compared to most people of your income level – perhaps someone just entering the job market who inherits a mansion.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
DTM, now yu are trying to sound reasonable again. so we agree it will be tuesday tomorrow, now we can begin. thank you for allowing me to vent and protest, but i didn’t need your permission.what would you protest? what are your core beliefs? easy to say you have them, harder to define. by the end of this year unemployment will be 10%, maybe you will be one of them. as for your request of where would i cut the budget, i already said i would run it at the revenues recieved. just like i do my business and my home. no deficet spending. no bank bailouts, no bailouts to private companies. [by the way they are not even in the budget]. is it too much to ask the government to live within its means? i think it should take care of the less fortunate, defend us all, but even the most ardent left winger [and i tend to be on the left] can now see that the government is bloated. career politicians with no contact with us, running things into he ground.$13,000,000,000.00 to GM, we will never see and which is gone. $180,000,000,000.00 to AIG, who sent the large portion of it to european banks, but hey, the government now owns 79.5% of this company. 79.5% of nothing=nothing. in our capitalist system their has to be failure, and the government must let it happen. i can name many car companies that have gone out of business in my lifetime, packard,hudson,studabaker,plymouth, oldsmobile to name some, others have thrived, honda,toyota,nissan, and all make cars in america. but now, the government runs the banks, the car companies, and soon healthcare. now, outside of collection of taxes what does the government do well? they don’t defend us[they react]they don’t care about us at all. lets talk about the bailout package, not one congressman or senator read it. then they complain with rightous indignation that AIG paid out a bonus.so DTM,taxes are my ‘button’, because they are wasted not because they are needed. and i hate waste, you should too.if you can go to any government office and not find waste, let me know. i see nothing but waste at government offices, at airports, in the military [of which i was once a member]and especially in washington d.c., thats the point of the protest, to let them know we are on to them, both republicans and democrats, for their wasteful spending habits.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
DTM, no bailout funds is a start, no waste of tax dollars either. i’d sttle for that.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Jim,
Look, I’m on your side here. I think high taxation runs directly counter to the principles on which America was founded, and which were supposed to make it different from anything that preceded it in human history.
It breaks my heart, for instance, that one of your respondents happily pointed out that he pays a mere “30% in total taxes.” I’m being sincere: It genuinely makes me sad that the confiscation of a third of one’s income is cause for satisfaction.
That said… For God’s sake, man, learn how to write. Learn how to make your comments accessible. Nobody is being a “grammar cop” when they criticize the writing and formatting of your posts. They’re merely telling you the same thing I’m telling you: You’re here to communicate with other human beings, not just pound on a keyboard.
If you’ve got an important message to convey, I can’t for the life of me understand why you’d want anything to stand in its way. I can’t understand why you’d make the message difficult for others to receive. Because if you go in expecting them to do all the work — to comprehend your thoughts! — don’t be surprised when the message doesn’t get through.
April 13th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
tom, sorry for my poor typing skills, but the personal computer came about late in my life and i never learned to type. i’m now almost 70, and post infrequently. by the way i still work full time but would consider it a waste for my ‘assistant’ to type my responses.
April 13th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
DTM, you are wrong again. it is about taxes, the bailouts are an example of the waste.
April 13th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Jim, I see. I understand. I’m not pointing it out as a personal flaw, by any means. Just offering some constructive advice to help you effectively make your points.
April 13th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
“And that is assuming Joel is spending every untaxed dime, as opposed to sticking some of his income into things like a 401(K).”
Actually, yes. A substantial fraction of my income goes to my annuity, as well as to IRAs. Which is one of the reasons I said Jim is a fool. He is lying about paying 60% of his income in taxes, but if he’s not protecting a fraction of his income for retirement, he’s even a bigger fool than I took him for.
Ah, and little Tommy. Here’s your illiterate post:
“one of your respondents happily pointed out that he pays a mere “30% in total taxes.” I’m being sincere: It genuinely makes me sad that the confiscation of a third of one’s income is cause for satisfaction.”
Who said anything about “satisfaction?” Do you derive satisfaction from the fact that you are illiterate? Or do you just like to make up shit?
April 13th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
joel, i was talking about all taxes paid, not just federal income taxes. i include taxes i paid on a new car, property taxes [ in new jersey a BIG CHUNK and i own 2 homes, this tax alone was over $22,000]all ssi, disability,unempoyment, sales tax [extra 7% on most of my purchases] plus taxes that the average person doesn’t think about because they are ‘hidden’, such as gasoline. in new york city there are as many as 11 different taxes on cell phones!!!cable tv, taxed by my town,state,and federal government. bridge tolls, road tolls, yup, they are all taxes. registration on your car, plates on your car, all a form of taxes. i even have to pay to get on the beach where my 2nd home is, its another tax. park in town, i have to feed a parking meter, another tax. if you don’t believe me call up your phone company, order the $49 plan, wait a month till the bill comes in and its over $60 !!! the difference is i look at fees that the government, any government, charges as a tax.you don’t. either way, we pay it and the government has the money, not you or me. i’m fairly well off, and pretty old, i can’t ever spend the money i have, so please don’t worry about my 401k or ira plans. i’ve been lucky. but, my grandchildren are each being born owing alot of money, because our government is spending too much, and has for many years. younger people today don’t know how much they make, they only know how much they ‘take home’.thats bad, it keeps them right where the government wants them. you can believe me or not, but, just for the hell of it check in detail your phone bill as an axample, your paying things on that bill that you never heard of before. but now you know.
April 13th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Nebraskans should be pissed, these teabaggers are making them look stupid. It should be obvious to everyone that they are overrepresented and undertaxed.
Also, an addendum map to the very lovely one posted earlier, with a little more detail on the numbers (though I love the electoral breakdown).
http://www.taxfoundation.org/UserFiles/Image/Blog/ftsbs-large.jpg
April 13th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
joel, one more thing, there are over 11,000 different taxes or fees charged by our various governments, but no one knows exactly how many, because every day some town,city,county or our own federal government adds to the number.
April 13th, 2009 at 10:01 pm
Jimbo,
I’ve calculated all my taxes, every jot and tittle. It adds up to just under 30% of our joint household income. And we’re in the top 5%, Jimmy.
If you were a real CPA (and you either are not, or you are incompetent), you would know that nobody pays 60% of their income in taxes. Nobody.
Adding up every single tax, including federal, state, city income, property, sales, gas, airline, sewage, etc, etc, etc. It just doesn’t add up, Jimbo.
Quit lying, Jim. You don’t pay 60% of your income in taxes. Nobody does, silly boy.
April 13th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
joel, i had over $100,000 in federal income taxes alone, which i’m sure is more then you or your household made. add in everything else that i mentioned, it comes out to 54.7% of my total income.sorry if i exaggerated. but i do get to mail a check on wednesday of $6,550, which puts it over 55% so you might say i rounded up.so, don’t talk about my knowledge as you have no idea on how much i make or what other taxes i have to pay. tool.
April 14th, 2009 at 8:09 am
Uh, Jim,
Whether or not you paid $100,000 in federal income taxes doesn’t tell me anything about the total amount of your income you paid in taxes.
If, in fact, you did pay $100,000 in federal income taxes, and you are paying 55% of your income in taxes, you need to get an accountant. Nobody in that income bracket actually pays 55% of their income in taxes–they protect their income and investments. That’s how I know you’re lying, Jimbo.
“which i’m sure is more then you or your household made.”
LOL!
More evidence that you actually don’t know anything about taxes, Jimmy. I said we are in the top 5% income bracket. Now go look that up, like a good boy, and maybe you’ll actually, you know, learn something about income and taxes.
Then get back to your homework. Post again after you get that GED.
April 14th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Apropos?
“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” John Kenneth Galbraith
April 14th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
You are incorrect to do so. Some fees are the equivalent of taxes. They are merely a means for gathering revenue. Others, however, are fees for services.
The latter can’t be considered taxes. Tolls on federal highways are usually fees for services. Every bit of the toll goes to maintaining the road you drive on. Cell phone fees are entirely used to regulate cell phone services. You’re not paying these fees so that someone can have food stamps; you pay so that another cell phone company doesn’t interfere with your service. You pay to get the use of a cell phone or a road. If you don’t want to pay, don’t use the cell phone or the road. Taxes are what you pay without relation to what you get from the government.
To illustrate:
When you buy a Ferarri or a Focus, you pay very different sales tax, based on price. That is a tax. The registration fees are the same, because they go to repair the road damage you do when you drive, and maintain safe driving conditions. You are buying a service from the state, not paying a tax. If you don’t want the service, don’t buy it, and keep your car off the public roads.
April 16th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
How are you. Love truth, and pardon error.
I am from Bahamas and also now’m speaking English, tell me right I wrote the following sentence: “Offer travel agency services specializing in air tickets between india and usa.”
With best wishes
, Belinda.
April 17th, 2009 at 5:41 am
My balls hurt.