Rajon Rondo vs Derek Rose
I think it’s clear enough that neither the Chicago Bulls nor the KG-less Boston Celtics can seriously challenge the Cleveland Cavaliers for the Eastern Conference championship. But except for that disappointing background reality, the Celtics-Bulls first round series has been an absolutely thrilling matchup. Much of the commentary has, however, focused on the “duel” between the two contenders’ young point guards with some people even going so far as to debate who’s better.
This, to me, is reminiscent of nothing so much as last year’s “debate” between Deron Williams, who’s quite good, and Chris Paul who’s much much better. Rose is performing pretty impressively for a 20 year-old rookie and were I a Bulls fan, I’d feel very good about the idea that he’s on the roster. One can even imagine him becoming better than Rondo at some point. But that point is not here today. Among other things, Rondo is so much better as a defender that Rose would need a substantial offensive edge to draw even, and he doesn’t have it. Here’s some stats from the regular season:
Rondo is a more efficient scorer than Rose and a substantially better rebounder. Rose commits somewhat fewer turnovers, but Rondo’s margin in assist ratio is better than Rose’s in turnover ratio. Rose’s only clear edge here is that since he shoots more often he scores more total points.
Oftentimes when faced with a scenario like this, fans of the lower-efficiency higher-volume scorer will say something like “well, Rondo gets to play alongside Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Ray Allen creating opportunities for him; if he had to carry a Rose-style load he wouldn’t be as efficient.” Fortunately for us (though unfortunately for Boston), injuries have left Rondo carrying a heavier load in the playoffs than he bore during the regular season. And by taking more shots Rondo has raised his scoring average to 24.2 points per game while maintaining his edge in efficiency and rebounding. Rose is a nice prospect, but Rondo’s doing great right now.
69 Responses to “Rajon Rondo vs Derek Rose”
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April 29th, 2009 at 11:28 am
It’s Derrick Rose, but all right, I get what you’re saying.
I’ll toss this out there, too: Rose is a lot closer to Rondo’s current level of play than Rondo was as a rookie.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:30 am
Hey, why even watch the games, when there are numbers to crunch?
The zealotry and refusal to meet halfway of the stat-focused sets back their movement, one which I would love to support if it wasn’t so aggravatingly one-note in its certitude. I’d like to make a point about, you know, watching the games, but as soon as you do, you’re a stat-hating dinosaur.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Deron Williams V Chris Paul is not dead and buried as you suggest. That will be a conversation that spans their careers. Take a look at Paul’s absolute dud v. the Nuggets the other night. Give me D-Will any day.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:34 am
I’d rather have Rose than Rondo, not even close.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:34 am
What is Rose’s FS% (face-slapping percentage)? Because Rondo’s is pretty high.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Hey, why even watch the games, when there are numbers to crunch?
Do you actually disagree with the point under discussion, or are you just bitching about stats in principle?
April 29th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Thank god basketblogging is back!
However, this is poor analysis. Rondo is considered a great defender, and yet in Game 1 Rose, a rookie in his first playoff game–on the road–scored 36 points on 12-19 shooting while getting 11 assists. Are you kidding me?
One can even imagine him becoming better than Rondo at some point.
This massively understates things. If the Bulls offered to trade Rose for Rondo straight-up, Danny Ainge would have another heart attack and Grousbeck would have to accept himself. It’s a no-brainer.
The interesting question is whether Chicago would be willing to trade Rose for Chris Paul straight up — probably yes, but I’m not entirely sure.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:41 am
As lopsided as those statistics are, they understate the situation, because the two players are point guards. There is no statistic that can measure how successfully a point guard sets up a play that results in a basket three passes later. As a pure point guard, Rose isn’t even in the same ballpark as Rondo yet.
Still, Derrick Rose is clearly an immense talent, and I wouldn’t be surprised if his game developed over the next few years to where he is the first point guard to reach Bird-Magic-Jordan levels of greatness.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:42 am
“I’d rather have Rose than Rondo, not even close.”
Amen. 8 days a week. Matt underrated Rose’s ceiling last year (Beasley who?) and continues to do so. Look how much Rondo has developed in the last year. No reason Rose can’t do more.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:54 am
I agree Rondo is better right now, but the comparison is much closer than was Deron Williams-Chris Paul. Chris Paul was a very legitimate MVP candidate. And he is just freaking awesome. Williams is a very good point guard, but no one compares him with Kobe, LeBron, Wade, etc.
And yes, I’m completely ignoring the New Orleans fiasco the other night. CP3’s team will not be any more eliminated from the playoffs than the Jazz already are.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Whoa, Nate. D-Will anyday? Have you seen the Hornets roster? Total garbage. They would be the Clippers without Paul. It is amazing they’ve made it as far as they have. Williams is a great player but Paul is on an entirely different level (and one bad game doesn’t change that).
On stats vs. observations, Rose has had a great series, but Rondo has clearly made more plays with consistency that Rose cannot approach. The stats back that up.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Rondo right now is arguably the best point guard in the NBA.
It is no discredit to Rose that he compares unfavorably to Rondo right now.
But Rose looks like he will be great too.
the real story last night to me was the way Paul Pierce, who I detest, rise above his subpar game and became unstoppable at crunch time.
As Frazier said about Ali afteer the Thrilla in Manila, lawdy lawdy he’s great.
And yes, Cavs-Lakers iun the Finals seems a foregone conclusion.
but my, what a great series the Celts-Bulls has been.
P.S. – how about the Big Baby stepping up in this series?
April 29th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Rondo also has the edge in games won by punching an opponent in the face.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
As a bulls fan, obviously I love Rose. Funny thing is though, i was one of the (idiots?) people who thought bulls should take Beasley. Man was I wrong. At this point, I’m not sure that I would trade Rose for anybody…and I mean anybody…outside of a LeBron or Kobe.
I’m not saying hes as good right now (he’s not) and certainly there are plenty of players in between them right now (Rondo is one of them, damn hes good…watched him since he was at KY, love him as a player). I just feel that Rose has the talent and athleticism to reach the highest level. Hes extremely strong for a little guy, and he can get to the basket almost at will when hes on. His mid-range jumper is far better than what i expected, and he has great floor vision. His biggest problems are:lack of surrounding talent, esp. the bigs, and that he needs to play better D.
And, since I can’t resist…wow, the officials have been horrible so far…not just against the bulls either. They call bad fouls on both teams, and then they dont call fouls when guys are getting hammered. I understand letting people play, but jesus, let the stupid fouls off the ball go, and call the shooting fouls. please.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
showing great restraint here in not posting rondos stats for the series which are some of the craziest numbers youll ever see – and its absolutely inarguable that rondo is better right now and torching rose in the series – roses one omg amzing game is barely better than rondos averages for the series – since then rose is averaging 5.5 turnovers – makes sense since hes matched up against the best defensive point in the game – roses ceiling is likely higher but fyi all u commentators shooting for the pwn matt didnt even get into that
derrick roses future looks v bright indeed but one thing almost everyone is getting wrong abt him is hes not a pure point – dude is a straight up combo guard if ive ever seen one – his assist ratio bares this out – he averaged 6 assists per game this year just by having the ball in his hands all the time – but hes much more of a scorer than a show runner – everyone should keep that in mind when penciling him in for goat status
April 29th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Thank goodness Garnett and the Celtics were healthy last year, otherwise everyone may have been subjected to overwhelming nonsense, year after year after year, when discussing Garnett’s career, about how he was overrated, having “never won the big one”, or failing “when it counted most”, or some other inanity.
There will be some of that regardless, if it turns out that Garnett’s career goes into steep decline now, and if the Celtics never get back to the finals while he is there. The Cavaliers, obviously, may be on the verge of clearly dominating the Eastern Conference for some time, given where James’ is on his career arc. Last year’s performance, however, and how the Celtics started this year, before the injuries took their toll, should really tamp down some of the fatuous opinions regarding Garnett’s position in NBA history.
As for this year, what a shame for basketball fans. A healthy Cavaliers/Celtics conference final would have been great.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Certainly Garnett has to be considered an all time great.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Rondo was good last season. He’s been very good this season.
And in this playoff series he’s been just amazing, averaging
a triple-double through the first 4 games (and close in
game 5), in spite of a dodgy ankle. Above and beyond
the statistics, his combination of quickness and vision
just makes him really hard for any opposition to deal with.
I don’t know if he can maintain this level of play: I don’t
think any other PG could have matched what he’s done in
this series. And boy, the Celtics needed it, with KG done,
and Pierce’s and Allen’s inconsistency.
Rose is going to be very good, but he isn’t carrying the
whole team as Rondo has been doing throughout this series.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
garnett v kobe v duncan
April 29th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Rondo has played his role brilliantly in the C’s strategy for filling the hole left by KG’s absence. It’s nice to see him emerging from the shadows of the big guys a bit. He wears green and is fun to watch.
Rose is a comer and will surpass Rondo on sheer talent, no doubt. But that’s not the point. Who makes his team better in this series?
This is a lot more fun than torture, state secrets, Timmeh’s tremendous Treasury tea party, and another Blue Dog from PA. But I’d trade both of them for Dawn Johnsen’s confirmation.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
If the Bulls offered to trade Rose for Rondo straight-up, Danny Ainge would have another heart attack and Grousbeck would have to accept himself. It’s a no-brainer.
Maybe, but only because Rose is a 20-year-old rookie with tremendous upside potential, who could be traded for just about anyone or be their franchise player three years from now when their current aging stars have faded.
If you’re building a TEAM to win right now, and that team already has Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Paul Pierce on it, you want a pure point guard who sets up plays for the Big Three, but also can keep the defense honest by knocking down a few shots. Rondo is a very important part of that team. Rose is enormously talented, but the Celtics have enough talent to win the championship without him. They need a point guard who plays the position efficiently.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Absolutely not. When the Celtics went on their trading spree two years ago, Ainge made Rondo the untouchable man. Everyone single one of their other young talents was trade bait, but Ainge made it clear that Rondo would not be involved in any deal.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
“Maybe, but only because Rose is a 20-year-old rookie with tremendous upside potential, who could be traded for just about anyone or be their franchise player three years from now when their current aging stars have faded.”
I don’t think anyone should make the trade. Yeah, Rose is
young. But Rondo’s only, what, 24 ? Barring injuries,
Rondo is going to be an elite PG for the next 6-8 years.
Rose might be the better player eventually; or Rondo might
keep getting better; or either one might get injured.
In the context of the current Celtics, the KG/Pierce/Allen
core can contend for another championship for a couple more
years, and you don’t want to mess with that. But even
without that consideration, I don’t see much reason to trade
away a young elite PG for a slightly-younger not-yet-elite
PG (except maybe the incomprehensible salary cap rules).
April 29th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Rose is immensely talented, but right now he can’t be trusted with the ball at crunch time and is prone to stupid mistakes, which does not a great point guard make. Rondo is much, much better than Rose right now, because Rondo actually knows what he’s doing, and Rose seems to be winging it.
Plus, as a point guard, Rondo is a better passer, floor general, and defender, the main duties of the point guard.
Rose has a higher ceiling because of his otherworldly athleticism, and is a (slightly) better shooter, but that’s about it.
People are in love with Rose, they can’t say enough about him, and kid can ball, but not every night. Rondo is doing it night in and night out now, and that’s the difference. Yes, Rose had an all-time great rookie playoff debut in Game 1, but since then has not been anything special. In fact, his back up Hinrich has been way better than Rose if you take away Game 1, because Kirk is a great defender, and Rose is…how do you put this….a horrible, horrible defender. As in, Rose sucks at defense. Should get a lot, lot better. But right now he’s an embarrassment on that end.
Rondo is averaging a triple double for the series. That’s pretty much all that needs to be said.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Rondo born Feb 1986. He’s only 23.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
everyone is all up on roses nuts but id only give 2-1 that he ends up a better player than rondo – defense and pure point guardiness are the two underrated factors in this comparison
April 29th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Rondo still has Ray Allen and Paul Pierce playing alongside him, and that’s a big help — specifically in spacing the floor and giving Rondo room to penetrate.
I mean, it’s not like any coach is going to tell his players to leave Allen or Pierce open on the 3-point line so they can double-team Rondo.
If you gave Rose a couple of All-Star weapons like that on the perimeter to draw defenses’ attention, his efficiency would go up significantly.
Just as an example from the past, the title-winning Lakers team from 1987-88 had Magic Johnson, James Worthy, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar… but their leading scorer was Byron Scott. Similarly, Worthy himself got the nickname “Big Game James” because in the playoffs, teams worked so hard to limit Kareem and Magic. (Heck, you could say the same about Josh Howard in this year’s Mavs-Spurs series.)
April 29th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Rose is going to be a great offensive player – what will determine whether he is the next Steve Nash or something even superior is whether he ever develops a defensive mindset to accompany that offensive one. Lebron has over the years, so one shouldn’t assume it can’t be done. [Although one can compare with Rondo, who showed, as a rookie, glimpses of being a disruptive force on the defensive end and has filled out nicely around that original ability.]
April 29th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
“I don’t think anyone should make the trade.”
To be clear, I absolutely agree that Danny Ainge shouldn’t make that trade. His mission is to hang another couple of banners in Boston in the next 3-4 years.
But if I were taking over a lottery team, I would absolutely trade Rondo for Rose, because Rose is still learning the NBA game and he’s already performing at a nearly elite level. Rondo is going to be a very good player for many years, but he’s not likely to get much better than he is now. If you look at the stats put up by top NBA players, the difference between 20 and 23 is usually quite substantial.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
If I could turn back the clock to, say, 1996, and I was the GM of a new franchise, had confidence in my ability to fill out a roster effectively, and had the choice of Garnett, Duncan, or Bryant, I’d likely pick Garnett. If not Garnett, I’d pick Duncan, I think.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Boring. The best thing about being a sports fan is the ability to say, (if you are a Bulls’ fan) “Rondo sucks. Rose is great.” And leave it at that. Just like the Larry v. Magic arguments. Larry sucked because I am a Lakers fan and that was it. Sure it was fun and interesting to discuss stats and position and relative strength of the two teams, but in the end the conversations with my dog-assed Celtics loving friends was that the “Celtics suck” and that was that.
This is why I oppose a football playoff for NCAA Division 1 football and a fan a conference aligned bowl games. It is more fun to woof about how USC would have beaten LSU and vice versa than to actually know. Besides, there’s no fair way of determining ceding. Leave the playoffs to the NFL.
I leave you with this: who’s better Kareem or Jordan? If you had to draft a 22 yr old Kareem or a 22 year old Jordon, who would you pick? Both won 6 championships, both were prolific scorers . . . (but Jordan never won a championship until Kareem retired). You’d pick Kareem because is he 7-2. Also, because Kareem is great and Jordan sucked, because he didn’t play for the Lakers!
April 29th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Rose is going to be a great offensive player – what will determine whether he is the next Steve Nash or something even superior is whether he ever develops a defensive mindset to accompany that offensive one.
Huh?! I love Steve Nash but he has got to be the worst defeneder in the history of the NBA.
Oh and I’d take Rose over Rondo anyday. It’s much easier to get assists when your shooting gaurd is Ray Allen, a guy who comes off screens, catches and shoots, than it is trying to get assists from Ben “the human black hole” Gordon, who thinks he’s Dwayne Wade and insists on dribbling endlessly before taking ridiculously stupid shots.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
I never had any urge to say Larry Bird or Magic Johnson sucked. I’d prefer seeing two teams which had earned their way through a tournament meet for the NCAA football championship. I guess I prefer watching competitors compete at their highest level, to rooting for laundry, or woofing. If that means I’m not a sports fan, so be it.
22 year old Jabbar over 22 year old Jordan, I’m pretty sure.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Right now?
April 2009?
I can live with that.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Oftentimes when faced with a scenario like this, fans of the lower-efficiency higher-volume scorer will say something like “well, Rondo gets to play alongside Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Ray Allen creating opportunities for him; if he had to carry a Rose-style load he wouldn’t be as efficient.” Fortunately for us (though unfortunately for Boston), injuries have left Rondo carrying a heavier load in the playoffs than he bore during the regular season.
God that’s dumb. Losing Garnett is a big deal but the Celtics have Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. The Bulls still have to dedicate an unbelievable amount of effort to stopping those two.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Among other things, Rondo is so much better as a defender that Rose would need a substantial offensive edge to draw even
I don’t think this is correct. Rose is – already! – a very, very good defender. Maybe even as good as Rondo. He is more inconsistent, to be sure (just as with his offensive game), but Rose is a guy who can defend Paul Pierce well. Take a look at game 1 – VDN put Rose on Pierce down the stretch and Rose was actually able to block one of Pierce’s patented step-back jumpers, among other great defensive plays. (I wasn’t able to watch last night’s game, and so didn’t see who was defending Pierce in the OT when Pierce his those 3 step-back jumpers to win the game – I’ll bet it wasn’t Rose.) Rondo is a very good defender, but he has inherent limitations due to his lack of size (CP3 is similarly limited as a defender).
Rondo is probably the better player right now, not not by much. And Rose will probably turn out to be better in the long run. That’s not to slight Rondo – I thought he should have been an All Star this year ahead of Devin Harris.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
(I wasn’t able to watch last night’s game, and so didn’t see who was defending Pierce in the OT when Pierce his those 3 step-back jumpers to win the game – I’ll bet it wasn’t Rose.)
It was Rose.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
“Rondo is going to be a very good player for many years, but he’s not likely to get much better than he is now”
If by “now”, you mean the way he’s playing in this series,
i.e. just about averaging a triple-double and playing
absolutely great in every single game, then sure, he’s not
likely to get much better than that. No-one ever gets
better than that. Rose won’t be better than that. Kobe
and LeBron aren’t better than that.
But if by “now” you mean the way he’s played the whole
season, then it’s less clear. He’s only 23; he’s been a lot
better this season than last season; and his otherworldly
performance in this playoff series shows that he *can* go
to another level, if he can sustain it.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
In the context of the current Celtics, the KG/Pierce/Allen
core can contend for another championship for a couple more
years, and you don’t want to mess with that.
This is very, very wrong. The KG Celtics are done. You really think Garnett’s going to be healthy again? He didn’t have a real knee injury, his knees just gave out. The guy’s played about a billion NBA minutes at an incredibly high level of effort. It’s all downhill from here.
As far as Rose-v-Rondo, I have to take the conventional wisdom: Rondo is better now, but I’m quite confident that Rose will be better soon, perhaps by next season. The dude’s a rookie! Almost every good player makes a big jump between season 1 and season 2: just look at Durant, LeBron, Chris Paul, Wade, etc.
Also, the basic stats don’t begin to capture Rondo’s shooting ability. He gets a lot of layups because he’s incredible at getting to the rim, but the guy still has almost zero jumpshot. He literally refuses to take shots outside the key, almost all the time.
I also think Rondo’s face-slapping ability is another point in his favor. Just think if he had only hit Miller on the shoulder. The Bulls would have won that game.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
When the Celtics went on their trading spree two years ago, Ainge made Rondo the untouchable man.
This is silly — two years ago, Ainge was negotiating trades for a veteran PF and SG, and obviously needed a PG to run the offense while those guys were around. Trading for a more talented rookie PG is a completely different situation.
If Ainge had been negotiating with New Orleans for Chris Paul two years ago, would Rondo have been “untouchable”? Of course not!
To be clear, I absolutely agree that Danny Ainge shouldn’t make that trade. His mission is to hang another couple of banners in Boston in the next 3-4 years.
I’m not sure about that. His mission is to hang banners for the next 10-20 years. If I’m Danny Ainge, I’m awfully worried about my old and creaky team’s ability to compete with the young and rapidly improving Cavs and Magic (and Lakers, and Blazers, etc.). I’d have a little more vision and realize while there may be a small, near-term drop off, Rose is a future franchise player when the big three retire, and Rondo is just not.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
It was Rose.
Uh, no, it was Salmons.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Gosh, steves, I hope you are wrong about Garnett, but I suspect that he has indeed used up his minutes. What a nearly-wasted career, thanks to nitwit management, and a good dose of lousy luck.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
It was Rose.
The picture here appears to show that, at least for the final Pierce step back score, Salmons was the defender.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
This massively understates things. If the Bulls offered to trade Rose for Rondo straight-up, Danny Ainge would have another heart attack and Grousbeck would have to accept himself. It’s a no-brainer.
You’re kidding me, right? Rondo has already floor-generaled a championship team, and has now clearly elevated his game over that banner-winning season.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Come on! Rondo is dominating Rose right now! Rondo is averaging a triple double, shooting a high percentage and barely turning over the ball, while Rose is doing worse on ALL the categories, averaging less points, assists, rebounds, shooting worse and turning the ball over much more. Rose will be good (at Tony Parker level probably), but Rondo is much better at this point and will continue to be better for at least a couple of years.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Gosh, in the NBA, luck probably plays a larger role in building a championship team than the other major sports, if nothing else, simply because there are fewer players competing. The superior personnel evaluator has fewer opportunities for his superior skill to prevail. As such, it is a real mistake to think of your moves in terms of how they will play out 10-20 years down the road.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
“This is very, very wrong. The KG Celtics are done. You really think Garnett’s going to be healthy again?”
Yes. In the past he’s been very durable. If there’s a real
injury, arthroscopic surgery can probably help. If it’s
just wear and tear and fatigue, the offseason should do it.
I do think the Celtics should strap KG and Pierce to the
bench more often in the regular season to keep them healthy
for the postseason. And I would agree that they’re on the
“downhill” part of their careers. But heck, Pierce was the
Finals MVP just a year ago. They’re still going to be pretty
damn good even if they’re only 85% of what they used to be:
and with Rondo and Perkins getting better, the C’s are still
real contenders the next couple of years.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Re the question of whether the Celtics would trade Rondo for Rose: the official Bill Simmons Trade Value Column has Rose at 10 and Rondo at 26, so the answer is yes.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Yes. In the past he’s been very durable. If there’s a real
injury, arthroscopic surgery can probably help. If it’s
just wear and tear and fatigue, the offseason should do it.
Say what? KG will be 33 next month, and he’s been in the NBA since he was 18. It doesn’t matter that he’s been durable “in the past.” He’s not going to be durable in the future. Whether its a real injury or “just wear and tear and fatigue,” nobody’s knees get healthier at age 33, no matter how long they rest.
And Will, I don’t agree that KG’s career was “nearly-wasted.” Garnett had a great career even before last season, unless your only criteria is, “did he win a championship?” And if that’s all you’re looking at, I don’t have much patience for you. KG pretty much single-handedly make the TWolves a playoff team most years, and a real contender for a couple of seasons.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Generally I trust sophisticated data but there is one thing that troubles me about modern statistical analysis applied to professional basketball, which is how poorly Bill Russell performs under the statistical microscope. The record of winning is so compelling. I know he had good teamates but the Celtics continued to win after Cousy, Sharman and Heinsohn left while Russell stayed but stopped winning as soon as Russell retired. Plus he won two NCAA championships and 60 straight games with a less than prominent program.
Could it be that Russell was the ultimate Shane Battier type player?
April 29th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
steves, I meant “wasted” in the sense of not having much opportunity to play with other talented players in a sport in which teamwork is critical to winning games. This is not a criticism of Garnett, believe me. I’m as big a Garnett fan as you are likely to find.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
“Say what? KG will be 33 next month, and he’s been in the NBA since he was 18. It doesn’t matter that he’s been durable “in the past.” He’s not going to be durable in the future. Whether its a real injury or “just wear and tear and fatigue,” nobody’s knees get healthier at age 33, no matter how long they rest.”
He looked like a hell of a good player when the C’s were
winning the championship in 2008. He looked like a hell of
a good player when they were starting this season 27-2 or
whatever it was. I think he can still be a hell of a good
player for 60 games next season. Maybe he can’t do it
for 82 games, but the C’s shouldn’t need that, and they
shouldn’t let him try.
April 29th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Paul is much much beter than Williams? Really. I guess.
k1
April 29th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Paul is much better than Williams
Except when they play head-to-head, of course.
It will be interesting to have this debate at the end of their careers. Williams is playing in an entirely different system, and his approach has been something entirely different than Paul’s. Watching Williams, you become very much aware that he sees himself as a role player, not the star. Worked for John Stockton, after all. Where does he fit into the stat-obsessed pantheon of players? Or is there more to just those numbers in the end?
April 29th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I will never forget when number one ranked Wake Forest, led by Chris Paul, played at Illinois, led by Deron Williams. Illinois dominated Wake. It wasn’t even close.
April 29th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
“will never forget when number one ranked Wake Forest, led by Chris Paul, played at Illinois, led by Deron Williams. Illinois dominated Wake. It wasn’t even close.”
That’s when I knew we were in for a very specials season.
And it was Salmons defending Pierce, not Rose. Conservatives apparently have to lie to make a point even when they’re discussing sports. Pathetic.
April 29th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Still, Derrick Rose is clearly an immense talent, and I wouldn’t be surprised if his game developed over the next few years to where he is the first point guard to reach Bird-Magic-Jordan levels of greatness.
I’m pretty sure Magic was a point guard.
April 29th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
There was also a fellow named Oscar Robertson who could be argued fufilled the role of point guard. Word has it that he could play a little.
April 29th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Phil Benedict @50:
It seems likely that if record-keeping had been better during Russell’s playing days, some of the things that he was able to do would show up on a stat sheet. I’m thinking mainly of blocks, but I’m sure there are others.
It is hard to compare 60’s players to today’s because we just don’t know enough about the games played back then. There’s not even footage of Chamberlain’s 100 point game.
April 29th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Can you compare assist numbers when one guy is passing to Pierce and Allen and the other guy is passing to Salmons and Gordon? I would rather have Rose on my team over Rondo today. This isn’t to say Rondo isn’t a very good point guard (he’s the 5th best in the playoffs*), but he has a much better team around him. One that was on pace for the 2/3 seed with their post-KG pace.
* Behind Paul, Parker, Williams and Billups
April 29th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Gordon or Allen? Deng or Pierce? Thomas or Garnett? I wonder which supporting cast is better?
It should also be noted that many are making a key logical error: comparing head to head stats while claiming that one defender is much better than another. If Rose is really such a bad defender, then Rondo’s stats this series are inflated and if Rondo is such a great defender–and he really is–then Rose’s stats are deflated.
Rondo is a great player and it’s nice to see him getting acclaim he deserved earlier, but in 2-3 years when Garnett, Pierce, and Allen are no great, Rose will be the best pg in the nba and Rondo will be a role player getting a max salary and being derided by legions as an albatross.
And Matt will more ashamed of this post than of his past support of the Iraq War.
April 29th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
[...] http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/04/rajon-rondo-vs-derek-rose.php [...]
April 30th, 2009 at 1:19 am
@ 50 Phil Benedict:
Bill Russell was the greatest defensive player ever. In any sport. I think their is a consensus amongst the players, coaches and scouts of the era that Russell -if the award had been given out at the time- would have won 11 straight Defensive Player of the Year Awards.
Unlike many defensive centers of today’s era, like Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace, Russell was a valuable asset at the offensive end. He was a great passer and pick setter, had a quality low post game, and was a relentless offensive rebounder.
His body type was 20 years ahead of his time, like a Jim Brown in the NFL or a Bobby Orr in hockey. Here’s a pretty good vid. He looks like a David Robinson type let lose in the 1960’s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWFsL4Y8RVA
April 30th, 2009 at 6:12 am
“Rondo has already floor-generaled a championship team…”
Is that how we’re going to describe his role last year now? I remember holding my breath every time he started to penetrate and letting out sighs of relief when he’d pass up wide-open shots to dump it to Ray Allen. I hope I can have one of ya’ll write my biography after I die.
On the comparison, I can’t believe that we’re using head-to-head stats to compare point guards, the position on the floor most affected by the quality of one’s teammates. As has already been pointed out, Rondo is playing with two legitimate hall-of-fame scorers. Want to take bets on how many of the current Bulls will make more than a couple of all-star game in their careers?
I don’t say this to discount what Rondo’s done this series – averaging a triple double speaks for itself – but this analysis is completely wrong-headed.
On Russell, indeed I don’t know what current stat systems make him look so bad considering that they didn’t keep stats back in the day. I’d imagine that if you did a simple +/- differential on the guy that he’d come out looking roses.
Of course, 5 MVP’s, 11 NBA Championships (2 as player-coach, the first African-American head coach in NBA history), 2 NCAA Championships (including a 55 game win streak), 1 Olympic gold medal as team captain, 4 rebounding titles (including being, with Wilt, one of 2 players to grab more than 50 rebounds in a single game) and never losing in his entire career an advance-or-go-home elimination game rather speaks for itself.
April 30th, 2009 at 10:39 am
This is from a guy from Boston. The KG trade almost didn’t happened cause Minnesota wanted Rondo and the Celts refused. btw guys rose had one great game the rest avg at best. Get you Michael jordan, Chicago bulls glasses off. No one in boston have said ever we want rose instead of rondo.
April 30th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
“Rondo still has Ray Allen and Paul Pierce playing alongside him, and that’s a big help — specifically in spacing the floor and giving Rondo room to penetrate. I mean, it’s not like any coach is going to tell his players to leave Allen or Pierce open on the 3-point line so they can double-team Rondo. If you gave Rose a couple of All-Star weapons like that on the perimeter to draw defenses’ attention, his efficiency would go up significantly.”
What Swopa said.
Matthew’s inability to understand the limitations of individual player APBRmetrics undermines his whole approach to hoops.
If Dwyane Wade is healthy, Mario Chalmers and Michael Beasley become useful statistical players. If Dwyane Wade is hobbling, Mario Chalmers and Michael Beasley become deadwood statistical players. If you can’t wrap your mind around this simple concept, you will inevitably jump to improper conclusions when you parse hoops stats.
April 30th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Wow, what a crock. Rondo should be out of this game and a possible game 7. The NBA officiating is absurd.
May 1st, 2009 at 8:23 pm
A few DIFFERENT points that people are argueing here:
- Go back to the original post: Rondo is far better NOW. Pure point guard who does it all. To me, its not close, Rondo is better NOW. Never mind the outside shot, it is improving and is now reliable enough to force a defender to play it. Besides, he can get into the lane whenever he wants. Quickness, hands, Pure, Shutdown. Rose doesn’t get close.
- Who will be better down the track? Rose has the higher ceiling so if the Celtics were offered Rose for Rondo straight up and they had conceded this years playoffs, they would have to take it. (Although a scoring PG is not really what they need). If they wan to win now, they keep Rondo, no doubt.
May 2nd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Nate,
There is no debate between Paul and Williams. Williams is a sieve defensively – see the Olympics versus Patty Mills and anytime he plays Rondo or Parker. His team is better than Paul’s. Paul’s team quit on Paul and the coach.
The same comparison holds for Rondo (Paul) versus Rose (Williams), although I think Rose is ten times better than Williams will ever be.