Culture in the Balance: Commercial or Non-Commercial
Via Julian Sanchez, a neat video mashup of different dance scenes from different Walt Disney animated films, that shows the reuse and recycling of certain motion patterns and tropes. Check it out:
I watched that video and got a few minutes of amusement from it. And so far thousands of other people seem to have done so as well. And with the video bouncing around on some blogs, that number ought to keep rising. So the world has, in a small way, been made a better place by the fact that modern digital technology makes it feasible for a hobbyist to create this even though there’s no real prospect of monetary reward.
And yet in the name of halting “piracy” there are those who would so tighten intellectual property rules as to make it impossible for these kinds of creative works to be made. That would boost the financial incentives for for-profit corporations to produce high levels of cultural content, but it would also raise substantial barriers to the creation of amateur, hobbyist, or not-for-profit content creation. That’s worth keeping in mind whenever you hear debates about intellectual property issues. Strong IP is usually branded as “good” for “creators” but the main impact of the digital revolution has been to advantage non-commercial producers relative to commercial producers, and the main impact of strong IP law is to shift the balance of power back to the commercial world. We’re accustomed to thinking of capitalism in opposition to socialism, state-direction production, but in the information realm the main opposition is between capitalism and activity that is simply non-commercial in nature.
53 Responses to “Culture in the Balance: Commercial or Non-Commercial”
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April 9th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
That, sir, is a very useful insight.
April 9th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Yes, but if you want to preserve the notion of any professional arts at all, there has to be some way to protect some kinds of IP and prevent piracy. There isn’t ever going to be an amateur Lawrence of Arabia, no matter how inventive those involved. And we should want a professional artist class. It depresses me no end that there is less room for actual living professional artists, thanks to the influx of amateur fare. Particularly since the old canard that every lost job is replaced with a new one seems to me to be less and less grounded in reality.
April 9th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
I, for one, was entertained.
That’s a very good point about capitalism vs. X. Freddie in comment #2 seems to miss the point. The person who made this video isn’t stealing Disney’s ideas, he’s taking small pieces and making something completely different. We’re not watching Aristocats, we’re watching how animators made various characters move. That’s innovation.
I think most of us can agree that pirating a whole movie is bad, but that’s not what IP laws are looking to do anymore. IP proponents are now looking to make their IP untouchable, even to make innovations such as this illegal. My guess is that if Disney had its way, not only would a mashup like this be illegal, using the term “mickey mousing around” would be as well.
April 9th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
And yet in the name of halting “piracy” there are those who would so tighten intellectual property rules as to make it impossible for these kinds of creative works to be made.
Yes, Matt, because cracking down on YouTube Disney dance-mashup videos is in the same class of action as trying to take legal action against hosts of BitTorrent trackers that facilitate massive file-sharing of copyrighted material, right?
I don’t think over-strict interpretation of “Fair Use” is the big issue here, or even more than an utterly trivial sideshow to the real IP problems.
April 9th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
The problem here is not really with the law as written, which, as you know, has a “fair use” exception which should allow exactly this type of thing.
the real problem is that the costs associated with litigating even a slam-dunk fair use defense are prohibitive for amateur, non-commercial entities (like a blogger). This results in a de facto tightening of the fair use exception.
It seem to me that the solution is some sort of “small claims” gatekeeping court that evaluates claims like this, and quickly and cheaply makes determinations of fair use. As in say housing court, a lot of deference would go to small unsophisticated parties, who would not be required to obey complex procedural rules.
April 9th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
I think we should stop extending patents and shorten the amount of time it takes for something to become public domain to ten years.
April 9th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
More brilliance from MattY. Hint: Youtube is a commercial entity. And, there are plenty of people who use videos like this in order to obtain publicity, something that has value.
If someone wants to make a cutesy video about dancing mice, let them have the creativity to come up with their own characters and not just take those created by someone else. Unless, of course, they’re commenting on Disney’s characters in good faith, and that’s already covered.
April 9th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
I thought you were going to make the point that this video demonstrates how very little originality there is in the content Disney fights so hard to protect. An interesting case would be where some in-copyright work was copied but the alleged infringer identified the infringed portion as being a substantial reproduction of an earlier out-of-copyright (public domain) work a’la the scenes in this video. Get on that, EFF!
April 9th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Wow, Robin Hood is the most recycled movie of all time.
April 9th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Shut the fuck up, Lonewacko.
April 9th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
“If someone wants to make a cutesy video about dancing mice, let them have the creativity to come up with their own characters and not just take those created by someone else. Unless, of course, they’re commenting on Disney’s characters in good faith, and that’s already covered.”
Good point, because Disney did us all a giant favor when they had the incredible decency and good will to invent the characters of Robin Hood, and Cinderella, and Snow White, and Aladin, and Pocahontas, and the Little Mermaid, and Quasimodo, and Beauty and the Beast, and Pinnochio, and Peter Pan, and Alice in Wonderland, and Stravinksky’s Rite of Spring in Fantasia, and this nice bit (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1378/did-disneys-em-the-lion-king-em-rip-off-an-old-japanese-tv-series). Thank god for Disney and their generosity in inventing our culture for us – I say, if anything, we don’t give them enough legislative cookies to reward the massive way they improve out culture by selling Jonas Brothers purity rings to tweens – which, ideally, will be a patentable concept that they can continue to export well into the year 2080 for our impending christian preteen great-grandchildren.
April 9th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
That would boost the financial incentives for for-profit corporations to produce high levels of cultural content
Assertion of facts not in evidence.
In my experience, legally-enforceable monopolies tend to be less creative and to seek rents rather than innovate.
April 9th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
I, for one, am intrigued to learn that LoneWacko/24aHead is not just a single-issue stooge.
Here’s a hint for him, though: All those Disney characters like Snow White, Cinderella, and Aladdin? Disney didn’t come up with those characters. They all come from older fairy tales that had passed into the public domain. What Disney did was create an entirely new creative work based on our shared cultural heritage– just like the person who created this YouTube clip.
The key difference being that Disney is committed to making sure that their works never pass into the public domain, to ensure that they will have a permanent, profitable monopoly on characters created by someone else. Whereas the guy who made this clip just wanted to do something cool and share it with other people, for free.
Our intellectual property law really ought to be protecting both the freedom for a company like Disney to profit from labor-intensive work that builds on our shared cultural heritage, and the freedom for ordinary people to generate non-commercial creative works that build on our shared cultural heritage. It should NOT be enabling Disney to hijack characters and stories from the public domain and permanently reserve all rights related to their use.
April 9th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Shut the fuck up, “Everyone”.
April 9th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
The key difference being that Disney is committed to making sure that their works never pass into the public domain, to ensure that they will have a permanent, profitable monopoly on characters created by someone else
Disney does not have a monopoly on characters created by someone else.
April 9th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
“Disney does not have a monopoly on characters created by someone else.”
Very well then, you go make an animated movie called “Snow White” and see how that works for you.
April 9th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
About 2/3’s of those scenes, were of Robin Hood copying from the Jungle Book and Snow White. Although I was shocked to notice that Beauty and the Beast, a very high budget film by anybody’s standards, had engaged in the practice, even if it was for just one scene.
One thing that gets left out of the debate is that most profits from CD sales go to record labels, especially among the majors. Some contracts between artists and their labels involve zero compensation to the artist. The benefit for the artist is that the label will heavily market the album, and this is used as promotion for them to make money from their live show.
Because of this, wider distribution through channels like BitTorrent and Youtube are actually desirable for the artist. Radiohead never would’ve become the band they are if it wasn’t for Napster.
Copyright laws just help retain money for entrenched executives and marketing agents in the music industry.
Movies and computer software are a whole different bear.
April 9th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
cf. L. Lessig, Remix.
April 9th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
Very well then, you go make an animated movie called “Snow White” and see how that works for you.
It would work just fine. HBO made an animated version of Snow White in 1996. There have been at least eight movie versions of Snow White since Disney’s 1937 version.
April 9th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Artists are free to release their music on BitTorrent and YouTube if they think that is a better deal for them than signing with a record label.
April 9th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Disney seems to have the power to steamroller, coarsen, and dilute the sources of his movies whether he has a monopoly or not.
April 9th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
So this is really just about hatred of Disney rather than IP law.
April 9th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
IP maximalists really hate Shakespeare and wish there was some legal regime in place that would have prevented him from plagiarizing the work of other suffering artists.
April 9th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
I think we should stop extending patents and shorten the amount of time it takes for something to become public domain to ten years.
Thank God you’re not in charge, then.
April 9th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Semi-serious joking aside, I’d think I’d be happy to support a nazi like IP regime that criminalized all sorts of piracy no matter how small IF we could also limit the length of copyright to some reasonable period, like the 14 year period the Founding Fathers put in the Copyright Act of 1790.
April 9th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Apparently Robin Hood is one big knockoff of earlier Disney movies… who knew?
April 9th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
“So this is really just about hatred of Disney rather than IP law.”
Go read up on Eldred v. Ashcroft if you’re not familiar with it (and particularly the fact that, prior to the last, recent copyright extension act, Steamboat Willie was about to enter the public domain). At this point, U.S. copyright law and the desires of Disney aren’t clearly separable – it’s not really possible to talk about one without discussing the other.
April 9th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Even as a kid I knew that Little John and…the snake were stolen from Jungle Book (Balloo and Kah(?) respectively), but I had no idea about the re-used dancing.
April 9th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Nathan, the demand to “Go read up on…blah, blah” is a pretty reliable indicator of a bullshit artist.
April 9th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
KenR:
Go read up on “On Bullshit” by Harry G. Frankfurt if you’re not already familiar with it – you might find some fascinating insight into your own current style of argumentation, too. Mind you, the book was written after Steamboat Willie, so no use waiting for it to ever come into the public domain – you’re going to have to purchase it.
April 9th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Yeah, great idea, let’s make Pixar go the way of the San Francisco Chronicle. Information wants to be free!
April 9th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Titles are not copyrighted so anyone can make a movie titled “Snow White.”
I happen to love Hans Anderson and Kipling’s Jungle Book and I really to do hate what Disney did to these. Bad money drives out good.
On the other hand, his Snow White and Alice and Wonderland are fine in my book. And I am a big fan of Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse.
April 9th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Or the opposition between Work Production and Leisure Production.
Normally, economists think of the Utility gained from working trading off with the Utility gained from leisure, but recently this dichotomy has become much more literal.
April 9th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
Кошмар. Только что смотрел новости просто волоы поднимаются, как же жить будем если цена на нефть так упала. В бюджет заложили одни цифры и доходы, теперь видим другие. Интересно на сколько хватит нам нашего “стабилизационного фонда” с таким подходом. Сорри, что я так близенько к теме. Но это тоже важно, как мне кажется.
April 9th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
Не судите за оффтоп. Но мой Rss не подхватывает Вашу ленту, я уже и так и так, пишет что запрещенная команда. Приходится лично к Вам в гости заглядывать каждый день, уже прямо как на работу хожу к Вам. Правда, я уже за неделю все из нового прочитал. Темы у Вас такие что за душу берут, и за кошелек тоже – и то хочется сделать, и это попользовать. До встречи в пятницу.
April 10th, 2009 at 7:33 am
Let’s get real about this. Matt, as a young man, loaded up his ipod with thousands of songs that he didn’t have to pay for, and he thought that was great. So he’s all in favor of that continuing, regardless of the effect on artists or (gasp) corporations that sell creative works.
And all that clip shows is that Disney in the late 60s/early 70s was running out of juice — you can also learn that by watching Robin Hood. It’s about as well animated as a scooby doo episode.
April 10th, 2009 at 8:57 am
What possible reason is there for Disney’s catalog and almost all recorded music to never reach the public domain? It stifles innovation because companies can just sit on profitable rights without any need to come up with anything new to generate revenue.
April 10th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Very well then, you go make an animated movie called “Snow White” and see how that works for you.
Filmation studios, back in the late ’80s/early ’90s, produced non-Disney animated sequels to Pinnochio and Snow White that were poorly-received critically and at the box office.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happily_Ever_After_(film)
Also, for the sake of completeness, it’s worth mentioning that there’re scenes in this montage not just from Robin Hood, but the Aristocats, too. So yeah, 1970s Disney, not so hot. It is kind of surprising that the post-resurgence Beauty and the Beast lifted animation, though it appears to be just the one scene.
April 10th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Actually, it is well known among animation historians that “Robin Hood” used whole segments taken from other Disney films. This was one of the last films made by the “old” (pre-Eisner) Disney, when the animation department was still controlled by Walt’s old guard, who had been with him since Snow White and who he called “my nine old men,” a reference to a remark Roosevelt once made about the Supreme Court. They were tired, old men by the time of Robin Hood, and Disney’s budgets weren’t what they were. The animators had to cut corners.
Other studios did it, too. You’ll notice the same gags recurring in the Warner Brothers’ cartoons, as animators used the same cels – maybe slightly altered,maybe not – behind new backgrounds. It was an old practice and that’s why studios kept cel libraries.
I’m not sure what any of this has to do with IP laws. Disney was borrowing from its own material
April 10th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
The point is that these IP hawks can loosen up their laws, even “dangerously” so, and the state of affairs would be better for all–it is not a zero-sum game. You would think when something has infinite supply, such as with digital media that the price would drop a bit, but the media owners would never sacrifice their existing profit margins so decry “piracy”.
Believe it or not, we could have massive amounts of “stealing” of movies on BT sites, free music for all, and maybe even free literature and still have a working system of creation. I’m sure it would be radically different than today’s system, but people will always want to create music and literature, go to movies and concerts, and hear authors read works. The consumer recognizes that an infinitely reproducible digital file is worthless, so copying and trading it should cost next to nothing. Now, pragmatically, the production of that work needs to be retained because of it’s associated costs. So we need a system that puts as much content in the hands of as many people as possible without losing our ability for big budget undertakings (though some may have to suffer). Maybe this will involve donations, an entertainment tax, patrons of the arts, advertisement, reduced price at economies of scale, value depreciation (radically discounted movie after a certain date), or a combination of some of these, who knows? But what is clear is that in the advent of an an infinitely reproducible good something has to change.
April 10th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Прикольно, такое не часто прочитаешь. Не всякий дурак до такого додумается. Да если бы это было кому-нибудь интересно, наверное было бы больше комментариев.
April 10th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Странно видеть, что люди остаются безучастными к проблеме. Возможно, это имеет связи с мировым экономическим кризисом. Хотя, конечно, однозначно сказать тяжело. Я сам думал несколько минут прежде, чем написать эти несколько слов. Кто виноват и что делать – это извечная наша проблема, помоему об этом еще Достоевский говорил.
April 11th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Не очень понятно о чем идет речь, хотелось бы более обширнее получить информацию о данной теме.
April 12th, 2009 at 6:09 am
Кошмар. Только что смотрел новости просто волоы поднимаются, как же жить будем если цена на нефть так упала. В бюджет заложили одни цифры и доходы, теперь видим другие. Интересно на сколько хватит нам нашего “стабилизационного фонда” с таким подходом. Сорри, что я так близенько к теме. Но это тоже важно, как мне кажется.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:22 am
Доброго времени суток, уважаемые коллеги и друзья. Много времени я потратил на поиски хорошего блога сходной тематики, но многие из них не устраивали меня отсутствием или недостатком информации, глупыми интерфейсами и прочим. Сейчас я нашёл что хотел и решил внести свой комментарий. Хотелось бы, уважаемые господа администраторы, чтоб ваш блог и далее развивался таким темпом, количество людей неуклонно росло, а страниц становилось всё больше и больше. Адрес вашего блога запомнил надолго и надеюсь войти в ряды самых активных пользователей. Огромное спасибо всем, кто меня выслушал и уделил минутку свободного времени на прочтение данного комментария. Ещё раз спасибо. Виталий.
April 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Вчера шел по улице, капал дождь и только на секунду я понял, как класно жить и ходить по земле. Мы за всеми нашими проблемами, и этой тоже, иногда забываем о совсем обыденных вещах – о людях, которые возле нас, о мире, который нас окружает. Главное токо по сторонам смотреть, в такие моменты чтобы под колеса не угодить. А так 100% отдых и релакс от природы получить можно, главное постараться.
April 15th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Кошмар. Только что смотрел новости просто волоы поднимаются, как же жить будем если цена на нефть так упала. В бюджет заложили одни цифры и доходы, теперь видим другие. Интересно на сколько хватит нам нашего “стабилизационного фонда” с таким подходом. Сорри, что я так близенько к теме. Но это тоже важно, как мне кажется.
April 16th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Дизайн блога всетаки имеет значение, и вот как не крути, но даже с физиологичской точки зрения приятнее читать текст на белом фоне, окруженный каким-то приятным контуром. Конечно, яркость нужна, но ведь человек приходит на сайт не ради того, чтобы провести здесь 5 секунд, он ведь хочет почитать что-то – кто новенькое, кто комментарии к блогам просмотреть. Я вот тоже иногда из-за комментариев возвращаюсь. чтобы глянуть чего народ там нацедил. Бывают так тему разовьют, что жесть получается. Заболтался. Сорри. пока.
April 16th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Долго искал блог на подобную тематику и наконец нашёл. Удивительно что раньше я не знал о его существовании, ведь с давних пор занимался вещами такого рода. Порадовало, конечно, наличие полезной информации лично для меня и я абсолютно согласен со всеми остальными людьми, оставившие свои комментарии в данном блоге. Удобная навигация, думаю, также многих порадовало. Хотелось бы и себе замутить такой блог, да нет время, поэтому легче пользоваться этим блогом. Администратор блога – молодец. Так держать! Всё супер, с огромным уважением отношусь к людям, создающие блоги на такие тематики!
April 17th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Оно то все так, но как по мне если есть посетители на сайтов, то есть и комментарии, т.к. каждый хочет принят участие в обсуждении той или иной темы, тем самым засветиться в кругу блогеров, так что считаю количество комментариев прямопропорционально зависит от количества посетителей,.. ну не берем спам естественно
April 18th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Прелесть! Я тоже мечтаю) Возьму – и сделаю… У меня получится. Спасибо, очень глубокая и позитивная статья.
April 18th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Ваш блог, естественно, очень полезен. Сам иногда пользуюсь информацией, которая размещена на подобных блогах. Хочу заметить, что такие блоги не только познавательны, но и довольно популярны в современном Интернете. Побольше бы их. Конечно, остаются некоторые вопросы, которые хотелось бы уточнить, но уверен что смогу их решить при следующем посещении. Думаю, многие согласны со мной. Распространение подобной информации – дело благородное и требующее достойного внимание со стороны заинтересованных лиц. Сейчас вынужден покинуть данный блог, но уверен что на днях не один раз посещу его. Спасибо.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:04 am
О, это что-то, недавно где-то уже о таком слышала. Ваше мнение имеет основание быть. Вы понимаете то, о чем пишите. Немного почитав, хотелось бы узнать больше.