What Obama Could Learn from Watchmen
Ana Marie Cox does a webchat for The Washington Post:
Singapore: Obama likes comics; can he learn anything from Watchmen?
Ana Marie Cox: We can all learn something from the Watchmen. Personally, I hope he repeals the law against costumed vigilantes soon.
More seriously (tho not totally so), I think Cheney and Bush modeled their presidency on Ozymandias.
I like the idea of the Ozymandias reference, but I’m not sure that I actually get it. By contrast, though you shouldn’t click the links unless you want an implicit Watchmen spoler, Ronald Reagan actually did attempt to base his second-term approach to US-Soviet relations in part on a hypothetical version of the Ozymandias strategy. And though the argument was kind of odd, it actually went hand-in-hand with a brave and correct policy stance that helped contribute to the peaceful conclusion of the Cold War.
58 Responses to “What Obama Could Learn from Watchmen”
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March 4th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Shouldn’t Obama try to learn from a comic that isn’t horribly overrated?
March 4th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
I don’t see Cox’s point. Ozymandias was trying to overthrow the established spiral of hatred and waste by producing a fantastic “outside” threat that unified the entire human population…
And this is what Bush & Cheney were supposedly doing?????
Um… How does proceeding along a strategy that makes the entire world hate you because of your incompetence.. AHHH.. NOW I GET IT!
BUSH & CHENEY WANTED TO BE THE GIANT SQUIDDY FOR THE WORLD THEMSELVES!
Brilliant.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Seeing as how Matt has pretty solidly cemented his geek cred over the years, isn’t it about time he address Dollhouse/ the greatness of Joss Whedon? I am currentley re-watching Firefly, which is the best sci-fi show ever. e-v-e-r. I know BSG is great and all(it really is), but Firefly is so legit. Fourteen precious episodes.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
A “horribly overrated” comic? What the hell?
It’s worth noting that the same idea appeared earlier in the episode “The Architects of Fear” on Outer Limits.
Bush/Cheney are Ozymandias in the sense that they do horrible things in the name of some supposedly greater good. Recall that Veidt asks Dr. Manhattan is it’s going to work out in the end and he is assured that it never does.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Maybe Cox figures that Ozymandias saw himself as a superior order of human who alone understood what the world needed and went about getting it no matter how many lies and deaths were involved. Maybe not.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Maybe it’s the Shelley version. “My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings” = “shock and awe.” “Look upon my works ye mighty and despair” = “mission accomplished.”
March 4th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
There is an alien in the woods. For some people the alien is easy to see. Others don’t see it at all. Some people say the alien is a Christlike pacifist. Others say it’s a giant tentacled psychic killing machine.
Since no one can really be sure who’s right, isn’t it smart to work with the bear?
March 4th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
She’s definitely riffing on the Shelley poem, not the costumed superhero. Everything about the poem — from the sneer and hubris down to the desert setting, and the bleak, barren legacy — says “Bush.”
I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled hp and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read,
Which yet survive stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal these words appear:
‘My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my works. Ye Mighty, and despair!’
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
The Tick #3, Night of a Million Billion Ninjas?
March 4th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
I met a traveller in an antique land
Who said ‘Six vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert
And on the pedestal these words appear
My name is Ozymandias, King of Ants
Look on my feelers, termites, and despair
I am the biggest ant you’ll ever see
The ants of old weren’t half as bold and big
And fierce as me’.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
I’ve been eagerly awaiting this movie, not out of a reverence for the book or a sense of awe of the talents of Zack Snyder (sarc), but for the inevitable political deconstructions that would arise.
Initially, I thought that more than a few people *SPOILER ALERT* would view the ending as an eerily prescient anticipation of 9/11 Trutherism. Furthermore, I thought that the notion that the impact of the ending would be severely diminished given the real-life Bush failure to unite the world in the wake of a devastating incident.
What’s funny about the notion of Bush as Ozy is that the morons at Big Hollywood/Pajamas Media have somehow come to the belief that Ozy is a…wait for it…evuhl libruhl villain..why, he was an ELITE INTELLECTUAL, and therefore a liberal. Naturally, they have already decided that Rorshach is the ultimate conservative hero, overlooking the reality that the character is a violent psychopatch working out his mommy issues by killing bad guys. Alan Moore would be laughing his ass off at these clowns’ belief that he is a secret right-winger.
Big Hollywood asshat in charge John Nolte has already declared because “liberal” critic Anthony Lane hated the movie, therefore the movie must be conservative. Nolte is also the guy who thought that the success of Paul Blart was a repudiation of movies like Milk.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
I don’t see how Bush had a “sneer of cold command.” That sounds more like Cheney, maybe.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Njorl: two big ups for you
1. Best. Tick. Comic. Ever.
2. Your handle is a very wry Monty Python reference, no?
March 4th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
I thought that the Comedian was more closer to Bush and Cheney.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
>Cheney and Bush modeled their presidency on Ozymandias.
More like the Black Frigate than Ozy.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Ack. Black Freighter, not Frigate.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
I’ve been eagerly awaiting this movie, not out of a reverence for the book or a sense of awe of the talents of Zack Snyder (sarc), but for the inevitable political deconstructions that would arise.
And by a not-so-strange coincidence, I have been dreading the arrival of this movie for exactly the same reason.
(Note: concerning the movie itself, I am going to reserve judgment until I actually see it.)
March 4th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Ozymandias=Rameses II, who claimed to have won the Battle of Kadesh through his heroism, and built numerous monuments acclaiming himself. Modern historians think he actually lost at Kadesh, but spun it as a victory.
So, yeah, Bush and Cheney did model their presidency on Ozymandias.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Much like Ramases, Jedidiah Springfield’s reputation was based on his killing of a grizzly bear with his bare hands, although historians now believe that the bear actually killed Springfield.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Matt, on the (very) off chance you read this, don’t get your expectations too far up. I saw the movie last night and it was a pretty mixed bag.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Cox got a little confused. She was thinking of Shelly’s “look on my works yee mighty, and dispair” Ozymandias, not Alan Moore’s.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
I would imagine that the theory goes something like 9/11 was Bush/Cheney’s giant squiddy thing. It’s certainly a common enough conspiracy theory that 9/11 was somehow manufactured by the government.
Actually, the comic makes pretty clear that Ozymandias IS a liberal – it actually describes him in such terms on numerous occasions, although admittedly usually in the voice of Rorshach. What I took away from the comic is that neither conservatism or liberalism is immune from men who think they know everything and could solve all problems if only they could control everything. Which seems like a fairly obvious truism to me.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
This applies to any politician. Obama takes our money and spends it without reproach for our “own good.” Anyone who rejects it on sound ideological grounds simply doesn’t understand the greater good… Blah blah blah.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Matt, on the (very) off chance you read this, don’t get your expectations too far up. I saw the movie last night and it was a pretty mixed bag.
My expectations are pretty low; everyone says it’s bad.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Stuart, I lean more towards the idea that Ozy is like a Manchurian Candidate/Angela Lansbury in reverse. He claims to be a utopian, but he’s really just a fascist who will PERSONALLY PROFIT from what he’s done. Sounds a bit conservative to me.
Of course, the comic also makes it pretty clear that Rorshach is a fringey right-winger, but the nuts at BH think he’s a mainstream conservative.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Nathan, you said “This applies to any politician. Obama takes our money and spends it without reproach for our “own good.” Anyone who rejects it on sound ideological grounds simply doesn’t understand the greater good… Blah blah blah.”
Hmm…you might be on to something. George Bush took our soldiers and got them killed without reproach for our “own good”. Anyone who rejected the war on SOUND IDEOLOGICAL GROUNDS simply doesn’t understand the greater good…blah..blah..blah
March 4th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
“This applies to any politician. Obama takes our money and spends it without reproach for our “own good.”
Is this where you go off on the “the 39% top marginal tax rate of the 90s = socialism” tangent? I do love hearing that one. I’d also love to hear exactly how much more of YOUR money he’s taking, since it’s highly likely the answer is negative.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
You know what confuses me is the notion that 39% top marginal = “socialism” and “end of capitalism”. How exactly did “capitalism” survive the 1950’s, when the top rate was over 70%? Hmmm..
March 4th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Wow, the fabled comment reply. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one of those before. I only piped up because this is your, what, 11th Watchmen themed post this week?
(I don’t know if I’d say it’s “bad”. Zack Snyder managed not to fuck up all the good stuff that Alan Moore put into the original and someone had the good sense to hire a large percentage of the cast of “Little Children”, so I’d say on the balance it was…okay.)
March 4th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
“Actually, the comic makes pretty clear that Ozymandias IS a liberal – it actually describes him in such terms on numerous occasions, although admittedly usually in the voice of Rorshach.”
Well, he also describes himself as pretty against Nixon.
What fun it is to examine American politics through the eyes of a tripped-out British sci-fi writer/wizard. It’s the only place where you can see devout liberals that run multi-million dollar corporations and right-wing lunatics who revere Kennedy…
March 4th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
George Bush took our soldiers and got them killed without reproach for our “own good”. Anyone who rejected the war on SOUND IDEOLOGICAL GROUNDS simply doesn’t understand the greater good…blah..blah..blah
Exactly my point. It applies to any politician.
Is this where you go off on the “the 39% top marginal tax rate of the 90s = socialism” tangent? I do love hearing that one. I’d also love to hear exactly how much more of YOUR money he’s taking, since it’s highly likely the answer is negative.
I’m not sure how spending 1500 billion dollars is “similar” to the 90’s years of deficit reductions. The increases in spending could not be paid off if we increased the top rate to 100%. This will lead to a middle class tax increase in the future, or the government simply printing money to pay its deficits.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Ozymandias’s actions look horribly when you compare them to OUR 1986. when you compare them to the 1986 of the watchmen… Well, it’s not like it would have ended well if he didn’t do what he did.
Overrated? What masterpiece isn’t overrated?
March 4th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Nathan, with all due respect, I find it very dubious that conservatives are screaming “deficits” NOW, considering the entire Iraq War was paid for with loans from China.
I mean, I get it. You take into account that idiot Rep. who actually quoted Atlas freaking Shrugged in relation to the budget, it becomes clear. If the GOP intends to balance the budget while cutting taxes for the rich and increasing defense spending, the deficit reduction would have to come from eliminating all social safety net programs. After all, poverty isn’t caused by societal forces or the impact of unregulated capitalism, why, poverty is actually caused by the poor not working hard enough.
I bet when you saw Slumdog Millionaire you thought that those slum kids wouldn’t be poor if they just tried harder to be rich.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Ozymandias reference:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/21/191657/65/267/627232
March 4th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
CD: Dollhouse isn’t that bad, but we can’t tell yet, because Fox messed with Joss’s first six episodes, according to Eliza Dushku (who is an executive producer). She says you have to wait until after that to really see what Joss is up to, since at that point the Fox execs threw up their hands and left him alone.
Meanwhile, Terminator is almost certain to be canceled. Its numbers are horrible – and Josh Friedman bears the responsibility by producing a second season that bore little resemblance to Terminator in many respects, not least of which was abusing the ostensible “heroes” in every manner possible reducing them to incompetent losers.
The last six episodes are going to be full of action and less psychoanalysis. I saw the spoiler trailer at WonderCon this past Sunday and it looked good:
http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/03/exclusive-massi.html
But it’s too little, too late to save the show. Josh almost admitted on the panel that he paced the show too slowly.
I asked poor Summer Glau whether she liked where Cameron ends up at the end, and she clearly wasn’t happy, but she didn’t want to criticize Josh in public. So she made a happy face with her hands to say, “I’m trying to be happy, but I’m not.”
You can see the panel videos on YouTube. And now I – or my voice anyway – am finally on YouTube at the end of video 3 of the panel, at minute 7:19!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvpvGJcJfqo&feature=related
March 4th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Watchmen isn’t exactly overrated, but the fact that it’s the only comic book many people are ever going to read (along with maybe some Art Spiegelman) is ridiculous.
March 4th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Richard S Hack,
Yea, Dollhouse is growing on me already, and there are so many good potential plot lines. Also some solid characters (Topher, Boyd, Helo). I also read that the DVR numbers for last week were pretty beastly, so that’s encouraging. But I think Dollhouse is missing a bit of the typical wit from most of Joss’s shows, but that may come later in the season. I’m actually planning a Buffy/Angel Marathon (in which i alternate btwn Buffy and Angel episodes starting in season 5 of Buffy). Holla!
March 4th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
An example of the behind-the-scenes wit on Joss’ shows is in the first part of that clip of the TSCC panel. Summer was asked why actors were always calling her name out on the set. She explained that they had this long scene on Firefly where everybody was going to say one line and she was the last one.
So she’s staring at this rubber ball that was supposed to represent Earth, and when they got to her, she didn’t say anything and ruined the shot.
So Nathan Fillion yelled, “Summer!” And from then on anytime ANYBODY blew their lines, everybody would yell “Summer!”
And then that was picked up over on the “Angel” and “Buffy” sets, too!
March 4th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
It’s worth noting that the same idea appeared earlier in the episode “The Architects of Fear” on Outer Limits.
…as the series acknowledges at the end of Issue #12.
March 4th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Ozy invented an external threat greater than current terrestrial conflicts in the hope that it would unify humanity behind a common purpose. Bush and Cheney exaggerated the nature of the AQ threat and then tried to tie that threat to an unpopular and easily beaten but geopolitically convenient despot in the hope that humanity would unite with the US in the effort to topple said despot (and those in North Korea, Iran, and anywhere else necessary to keep the coalition going). They’re not exactly the same, but they are similar. Bush and Cheney’s version just fell apart more quickly.
I’m actually more interested in this, however: “a brave and correct policy stance that helped contribute to the peaceful conclusion of the Cold War.” I sincerely hope that at some point in the future Matt will enlighten us about exactly which Reagan policy had that result.
March 4th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
I’m with the first post of the thread.
As a non-comics reader, I first read Watchmen a few years ago, and I really wanted to like it, but… no. The book has some merits, but overall it’s pretty lame.
The fact that Watchmen is considered some sort of milestone for comic books is a little baffling, and seems like a pretty negative reflection on the genre as a whole. It’s kid stuff, and not in a good way.
March 4th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
I find the book reads very differently when we know how the cold war actually turns out.
March 4th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
What a weird discussion. Several people try to claim Cox meant the other Ozymandias and a couple try to claim Moore’s graphic novel is overrated and “kid stuff.”
Veidt/Ozymandias trumps up a phony threat in the name of a higher goal and a lot of innocent people get killed in the process. Not too hard to see the parallel.
March 4th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
As someone who doesn’t listen to Rock n Roll I’ve always been baffled by people who say Sgt Pepper was some kind of milestone. My complete lack of understanding about what made the album revolutionary is why I feel confident that my opinion is sound. I don’t get it so it must be a failure of the genre.
March 5th, 2009 at 12:23 am
N, before Watchmen, Comics WERE kids stuff for the most part. one or two dimensional heroes who were, for the most part, interchangeable and unrealistically perfect.
Watchmen made people see the error of that, and forced writers to treat characters as if they were real at least some of the time.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:01 am
As a review I just read points out:
March 5th, 2009 at 4:02 am
Next time, Hack, use “close tags” instead of hand keying.
Yes, sir!
March 5th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Here are the actually quotations of the ending. One can easily imagine one of the neo-cons uttering these words of justification.
March 5th, 2009 at 11:12 am
She was thinking of Shelly’s “look on my works yee mighty, and dispair” Ozymandias
No, no, in this case it’s “Yoo mighty”.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Is my comment at 7:58 p.m. last night still in moderation? (Which would be odd considering that I can see it right now even though I’m posting from a different computer, but then it says “in moderation” next to my name. If comments are visible while in moderation, then what’s the point of it? Does the thinkprogress.org Web site somehow recognize me whether I’m on my home computer or work computer? I’m so confused.) Oh well, it’s my own fault, I guess, for too many swears and/or links. So here is the comment again, swear-free and link-free.
They’re saying that? Really, seriously? Bwa ha ha hah, go to Big Hollywood and search; they are!
Why am I so excited? Because I predicted it. Yglesias had a post in mid-February reacting to a “25 most conservative movies” list; see the comments of it.
I mean, I’m gloating here. Wingnuts really are this insistent on milling fiction down to dust to extract morals from it and see if they agree with them. They really are this stupid. To be totally fair, judging by the comments some of them did notice non-conservative elements to the story, but they sure are good at ignoring stuff like that.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
I’m sorry I was less than elegant in making my comparison, Matt. But Kevin grokked (I can say that here, right?) what I was thinking:
It is, admittedly, a little lazy because it could apply to almost any venal politician. The Shelley reference works better but I confess I wasn’t thinking about it at the time.
As to Ozymandias being a “liberal” I have to say I don’t really take Moore’s politics at its word. He is a great story teller but the labels seem to come from an idiosyncratic world view. But they are internally consistent and so maybe I’m wrong to disagree.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Americans never read “The Watchman”, and never even considered it as a comic. Americans don’t ever think of “The Watchmen”, and can’t even relate to the fraudulent eurasian junk that it is.
Like the british makers of “The Watchmen”, Obama also never read comics and just used the idea that he had for his publicity campaign.
The british can’t write comics worth shit and haven’t produced anything before or since this “Watchmen” attempt nonsense.
And in the real world, a “Hugo Award” isn’t worth the paper it’s shit upon.
Also, China owes the planet a planetload of money, from plagiarism to terrorism, that it cannot afford to pay back, let alone feed its people, not America owing China. That’s real economics. Not eurasian, or british, economics.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Americans never read “The Watchman”, and never even considered it as a comic. Americans don’t ever think of “The Watchmen”, and can’t even relate to the fraudulent eurasian junk that it is.
Like the british makers of “The Watchmen”, Obama also never read comics and just used the idea that he had for his publicity campaign.
The british can’t write comics worth shit and haven’t produced anything before or since this “Watchmen” attempt nonsense.
And in the real world, a “Hugo Award” isn’t worth the paper it’s shit upon.
Also, China owes the planet a planetload of money, from plagiarism to terrorism, that it cannot afford to pay back, let alone feed its people, not America owing China. That’s real economics. Not eurasian, or british, economics.
March 5th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Rorshach, is that you?
March 5th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Americans don’t even know what the hell Watchmen are or what a rorschach is. Them and their bloody bloody comic culture and their bloody bloody WATCHWOMEN society! Americans are bloody straight WANKERS with their bloody straight DNA ways!
March 6th, 2009 at 11:37 am
There’s a movie promo poster with Ozymandias and the quote, “A world at peace. There had to be sacrifice.”
Now put Obama in that picture, and change the quote:
“A level playing field. There had to be sacrifice.”
Where’s Rorschach when we need him?