Mar 11th, 2009 at 9:52 am
School Shooting in Denmark
Not much to say about this incident but I thought it should be noted. I recall from the 1990s-vintage school shootings in the United States, and then from my trip to Finland last December, that it only takes one or two of these incidents in a given country to create a real feeling of mass unease about the state of things.
50 Responses to “School Shooting in Denmark”
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March 11th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Stuttgart is in Germany, isn’t it?
March 11th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Indeed. I’ve always thought that if Al Qaeda really wanted to mess with us, they’d give up on the whole fly-a-plane-into-something-every-10-years and instead just have a John Allen Muhammad-type mystery sniper unleashed on like 10 major American cities over the course of a week (or however long until they’re caught).
As a sidenote, I think this would also lead to some very disorienting debates about gun control.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Not much to say except to get the country wrong. Thanks for you insight, Matt.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Denmark, Germany, what’s the diff? Hey, they both speak French, right?
March 11th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Wow, Matt’s worst spelling mistake ever. He managed to get every the first, third, sixth and seventh letters of “Germany” wrong.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:09 am
I’m not shocked this sort of thing happens in the US, we run our schools like an experiment in social Darwinism. Violence, on an ever escalating scale, was always going to be the result of this. Allowing the strong to brutalize the weak has the effect of creating terrorism in all environments. When it’s condoned and even applauded by those in charge, that violence loses it’s narrow focus on individuals and spreads to an institution and all it’s members in general.
I don’t get this in Denmark, though. Are there schools really that bad?
March 11th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Stuttgart is in Germany, isn’t it?
What would lead you to think that? The headline that says “At Least 15 Killed in School Shooting in Germany”?
Classic.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Wow, Matt’s worst spelling mistake ever. He managed to get every the first, third, sixth and seventh letters of “Germany” wrong.
That was funny.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Sore-thumb errors like this are a good metric, at least, for finding out how many commenters read the stories and thread before they put in their two cents…
March 11th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Here is a new take on European history: Denmark acutally won, rather than lost, the second world war, which is why Swabia is now a province of Denmark. Ah, the fruits of occupation.
Mind you, this is not the first such incident in Germany. There was another one in Erfurt in 2002, where a 19-year-old shot sixteen people before he shot himself.
Erfurt was in the former GDR, so this incident was read as an expression of some of the serious structural issues left behind by the communist regime. The unease was already there, and in sufficent supply. Stuttgart, on the other hand, is the capital of Germany’s most prosperous state. Which may, or may not, affect the collective reading of this incident.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Matt, you’re an idiot.
Also, who wants to bet that the powerful German gun lobby will block any hard regulation on the sales and possession of guns? Or maybe Germans place a higher value on the life of their children than on owning enough weapons for a small guerrilla.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:51 am
I always thought Matt must have some kind of staff that does a lot of work for him due to his ridiculous posting schedule.
Now that this has been up for an hour I’m more inclined to think he’s alone in a dark basement and nobody at ThinkProgress even reads it.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:56 am
I’m a bit sick to my stomach right now – an old girlfriend of mine is a teacher at a Stuttgart high school, and I have yet to hear back from her…(otherwise I might snark about the need for carry-concealed laws in Germany)
March 11th, 2009 at 11:08 am
It is only “near” Stuttgart. But the shooting was in Winnenden.
P.S. Perhaps Matt thinks Winnenden is a microscopic Dutchy that still belongs to Denmark? It isn’t of course, I am just trying to think of a reason for the amazing mix-up–people often mix up Holland and Denmark because Dutch and Danish both, well, start with “D” I guess. Maybe Matt was thinking in German? Deutschland und Daenemark?
March 11th, 2009 at 11:15 am
The fact that events like these can happen in Germany or the U.S. (or even Denmark) with our very different school systems and gun control laws is further evidence that we probably shouldn’t prescribe wide-ranging policies in response to tragic isolated events.
March 11th, 2009 at 11:23 am
NS,
Do you know how many people in total (including freak shows like this one) die by gun wounds every year, in every country? If you did (since you obviously don’t), I suspect you would change your mind about “wide-ranging policies” when it comes to gun control.
Matt still hasn’t corrected his post. Really? Really? So Matt never reads his own comments, or nobody gives him any feedback, or he just doesn’t care. Denmark or Germany, hey, what’s the difference? So much for caring about Europe.
March 11th, 2009 at 11:30 am
I am an American living in Denmark. There will be wild celebrating in the streets of Copenhagen tonight. Denmark has been losing territory for about 300 years, and so this if very good news indeed.
March 11th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Hey, give him a break guys. I mean, sure, the word “Germany” is in the headline, and German/Germany is mentioned in the story 7 more times, and it’s in the url of the webpage he linked to.
March 11th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Interesting that it happened not in the bottom-of-the-tripartite-education-system Hauptschule, but rather a middle-of-the-three Realschule. So no socio-economic factors at play I presume.
Funny business.
March 11th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Myles, I wouldn’t be too sure. The Realschule students are not necessarily exempt from socio-economic problems. The tripartite system is based on educational achievement, not how well-off or functional your family is.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
The tripartite system is based on educational achievement, not how well-off or functional your family is.
By far the biggest predictors of whether you will go to gymnasium are immigrant status and socioeconomic background.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
I’ve been hard on Matt for errors in the past, but for whatever reason, I find this particular moment of mental dyslexia fairly forgiveable. What is not forgiveable, is that this post will undoubtedly never be updated or fixed and the error will never be acknowledged. I don’t think this is necessarily a prideful character flaw (though it could be), but is more likely a product of Matt’s ridiculously high posting rate (is he paid by the word like Dickens?). Post it and forget it. The sheer number of posts is the greatest weakness of this blog. Not only does it impact negatively on the quality of the posts, but the speed at which posts move down the page seriously retards the discussion of each post–and for whatever reason, I find the commenters on this blog to be above average in interest and quality.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
The tripartite system is based on educational achievement, not how well-off or functional your family is.
In some politicians’ dreams, yes.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
By far the biggest predictors of whether you will go to gymnasium are immigrant status and socioeconomic background.
You are correct that socio-economic status (SES) is a major factor of where a student ends up in the system (for a variety of reasons). However, it’s not the whole story, and attending Realschule does not automatically mean that you come from a non-immigrant, middle-class home, nor can one draw the conclusion that a student who attends a Realschule is free from the effects of SES factors.
On the other hand, has there been any research done on whether or not SES plays a role in other shooting sprees of this type? It seems to me anecdotally that it doesn’t play much of a role in any event, so Myles’ presumption may be correct regardless of what school the student graduated from.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
A typo of epic proportions.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
My point wasn’t about familial circumstances, as a hard-working poor German could very well go to the Gymnasium; rather, it seems to me that socio-economic disillusionment wouldn’t be a factor here at all, as the shooter wasn’t at a junk-pile Hauptschule (which has increasingly been socially stigmatised)
March 11th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
In taking note of the haste and resulting inanity of the post, one might also note what it says: “Not much to say about this incident but I thought it should be noted.” Why post this at all?
Really, the quality of this blog has been going down the tube, and it’s ironic given that one theme of the blog is the suitability of the blogosphere as expert replacement for real reporting from the print media, as they face financial terrors. It’s not even mere opinion piggybacked on serious reportage. It’s just a wish that he had an opinion or had read the reporting carefully enough to remember the country.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
“Also, who wants to bet that the powerful German gun lobby will block any hard regulation on the sales and possession of guns? Or maybe Germans place a higher value on the life of their children than on owning enough weapons for a small guerrilla.”
Germany has very strict gun control laws. Were you unaware of that, or am I totally missing your point?
March 11th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
After an hour and a half since the item was posted, and after 25 comments, nearly all of which have pointed out the error in the headline, evidently neither Matt nor anyone else at ThinkProgress can be bothered to correct it.
Matt is legendary for the proofreading errors on his blog. At times it’s been something of an endearing human flaw, but sometimes it’s smelled like contempt for the blog’s readers. This particular occasion stinks mightily.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
I might also note that in Switzerland every household owns an automatic rifle, and no school shooting occurs.
(Yes I understand that by law cartridges must be kept in seal containers and cannot be opened unless by government decree, but hey, if you are going to shoot people, what the law says about cartridge storage hardly matters does it?)
It is not about guns, folks. Taking away guns won’t solve the problem.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
I might also note that in Switzerland every household owns an automatic rifle, and no school shooting occurs.
(Yes I understand that by law cartridges must be kept in sealed containers and cannot be opened unless by government decree, but hey, if you are going to shoot people, what the law says about cartridge storage hardly matters does it?)
It is not about guns, folks. Taking away guns won’t solve the problem.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
@why oh why:
You’re the idiot, pal. Germany has highly-regulated gun laws. Much more tightly so than here in the U.S.
German gun-owners must have police-issued permits. There’s an assault weapons ban that is much more stringent than the one that expired here a few years ago. To receive a permit from the police, you must take a far more rigorous course than here in the U.S. (I wish we had something similar). To own hunting rifles or shotguns, one must take a YEAR-LONG (2-3 classes/week/52 weeks) course and receive a hunting license. This includes if one wishes to keep inherited antiques. The test to pass is a one-time only chance. Open carry is banned, and concealed carry is available at the very narrow discretion of the police (typically only to security types). Firearms and ammunition must be stored in separate locked locations. The statutes on self-defense are as stringent as California’s. You must present your valid gun license to purchase gun parts or ammunition of any kind.
While highly visible, school mass shootings are aberrant, statistical anomalies. Death by firearm encompasses many, many types of deaths — most notably suicide. I would be willing to bet money that all other firearms deaths are the results of negligence on the part of the owner — storing ammunition and weapons where kids can get at it, say — or during the commission of a crime that does not require a firearm to commit.
Hysteria serves no one.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Maybe if McCardle were to write something about Matt’s mistake, there’d be chance that he’d read it…
March 11th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
If I recall correctly, during the hysteria about school shootings, school shootings were at historically low levels.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Okay, let’s make a bet. Which gets fixed first, this post (Denmark v. Germany) or the “Quantifying” one (the HTML/JavaScript is screwed up badly). More likely, neither one ever gets fixed.
I like the suggestion of getting McMegan to write about this on her blog. That would probably be the only way to get Matthew’s attention.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Uh, not to pile on, but wtf? How does Matt possibly get to Denmark from the original story? Did he not even click through?
March 11th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
35 FTW. Send out a brave ambassador to McMegan McMansion.
We should be thankful that Miley channels his extended adolescent frustration into Gatsbyesqe play-acting, rather than shooting people.
Still, the psych profile for gun rampagers — young white men — is remarkably consistent.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
“Still, the psych profile for gun rampagers — young white men — is remarkably consistent.”
Except for Seung-Hui Cho, perpetrator of the deadliest school shooting in history.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
I think something’s rotten in Germany
March 11th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
tomemos: point taken, though “going bezerk with a gun” is not limited to school shootings. There are lots of people who take out a dozen people in an afternoon, and outside the communities they devastate, most are forgotten.
March 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
@ Myles: How would adding more guns to the equation really help the situation here? Were this to have happened in Switzerland, even with a gun in each household, the shooting would be well over by the time someone came around with one.
I would say the event happening at a Realschule does leave open the possibility of an SES/immigration explanation. A quick search brings up a news analysis piece from CBC that claims profiling based on SES is not effective but doesn’t rule it out as being a possible associated cause.
March 11th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
I can’t speak for Denmark (tsk tsk), but reporting from here in Germany, I have spent the whole day out and about amongst the masses and haven’t noticed the slightest signs of mass unease or hysteria over the shootings. More a sinking sadness, and a grim sense of inevitability – as in, with the future looking so bleak for today’s youngsters, why wouldn’t this happen?
However, there was one element of shock among a few friends: the fact that someone actually lived in a house with 18 guns. I mentioned that my sweet churchgoing grandmother in the US used to have almost as many of her own, and they thought I was joking. I always took for granted in the US that both loaded guns and volatile morons were always just a few steps away, all too often in the same place, and it never took school massacres to feel rather uneasy about that.
March 11th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Regarding the socio-economic background of the shooter: according to German media it appears that he came from a rather well off family and does not have a migration background. That’s where I think the root cause will be found eventually. If the reports are true that the father, who in one article was described as a “true patriarch”, owns a company with 150 employees and the boy “only” graduated from Realschule (and not Gymnasium) I can see him being treated like a disappointment by the parents. After all, economic success is part of the culture of that part of Germany, summed up by the popular phrase “Schaffe, schaffe, Häusle baue.” (Work, work, build a house). Of course this is just speculation at this point, but probably better than the “video game” explanation.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
If the reports are true that the father, who in one article was described as a “true patriarch”, owns a company with 150 employees and the boy “only” graduated from Realschule (and not Gymnasium) I can see him being treated like a disappointment by the parents.
Well if his parents were that wealthy and he was that nonacademic, then it ought to be his parents’ fault to not have sent him off to Schule Schloss Salem, the famous school founded by Kurt Hahn that educated Prince Philip.
After all, if you suck at academics, you really ought to go off to prep school, where they at least take care of you and have multiple safety nets to make sure you don’t fall through the cracks. You really shouldn’t be in public school if you are not very academic and can afford it.
March 12th, 2009 at 5:04 am
I’m starting to wonder if there’s a link between school shootings and the great increase in the psychoactive medication of young people. Almost all of the popular drugs (SSRIs, Ritalin, etc.) have occasional adverse (sometimes very adverse) effects.
March 12th, 2009 at 11:06 am
After all, if you suck at academics, you really ought to go off to prep school, where they at least take care of you and have multiple safety nets to make sure you don’t fall through the cracks. You really shouldn’t be in public school if you are not very academic and can afford it.
Yes, let’s just ditch the attempt to find explanations (not justifications, btw) in favor of lame snark.
Just as a side note: Private prep schools are not common at all in Germany and surely not the first thing most people, even the wealthier ones, think of when their kids get in school trouble.
I have known quite a few people who failed in Gymnasium or were average in Realschule. In German society that can be a rather unpleasant stigma depending on the circumstances. People who had ambitious parents breathe down their necks were mostly the ones that went bonkers. Drugs, depression, etc.
March 12th, 2009 at 11:32 am
I have known quite a few people who failed in Gymnasium or were average in Realschule. In German society that can be a rather unpleasant stigma depending on the circumstances.
Are you telling that there is a social stigma attached to going to Schule Schloss Salem (SSS), the school where the Thyssens, Krupps, and German nobility send their kids? Don’t give me that bullshit. I know that prep schools aren’t common; but SSS is there and one school is quite enough for one to send one’s kids.
And if this is not the first thing they think of when the kids get in school trouble, well, they are not making using of a very powerful and effective resource.
March 12th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Are you telling that there is a social stigma attached to going to Schule Schloss Salem (SSS), the school where the Thyssens, Krupps, and German nobility send their kids?
Have you even read what I wrote? I was referring to the regular and, at times, rather rigid school system that can make kids feel like real losers depending on the circumstances (overambitious parents, mental disposition etc.).
None, of what I said referred to Salem. I actually quite liked how Bernhard Bueb recently revived the discussion about pedagogy in Germany stretching the importance of providing a stable environment for kids where they can develop a sense of self-worth through accomplishments and discipline. Unfortunately, that is not the norm. The norm is a broken school system paired with huge expectations and economic pressure.
March 12th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
I can’t believe that in all the snark about Denmark everyone’s missed Matt’s incredibly pretentious and ridiculous statement that he was able to feel the “unease” in Finland – a country where he doesn’t speak the language and spent, what, 3 days? That’s almost as impressive as his deep knowledge of Russia.
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