Mar 16th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Rick Klein: Leave Dick Cheney Alooooooone
Asked about Dick Cheney’s ridiculous Sunday remarks just now, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs was appropriately dismissive: “I guess Rush Limbaugh was busy,” he said, so they had to bring out “the next most powerful member of the Republican cabal.” The Note’s Rick Klein is getting the vapors:
Gibbs on Chney critique: “I guess Rush Limbaugh was busy.” wow — we’re talking about the former vice president here
The way I look at it, the idea of respectful debate has no real meaning unless you actually deny respect to someone. Cheney seems like a good candidate.
77 Responses to “Rick Klein: Leave Dick Cheney Alooooooone”
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March 16th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Cheney and Limbaugh in the same sentence… Gibbs is killing me.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Gibbs on Chney critique: “I guess Rush Limbaugh was busy.” wow — we’re talking about the former vice president here
Your [Klein's] point being?
To quote the great Sol Rosenberg, “Yes, but he’s an asshole.” I guess that could refer to the former vice president (president) or Klein. Or Limbaugh for that matter.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
wow–we’re talking about a war criminal here.
wow–we’re talking about a vicious sociopath here.
wow–we’re talking about someone who shot a man in the face–and then forced the poor bastard to go on national television and apologize to *him*.
wow–we’re talking about the architect of america’s greatest foreign policy disaster.
wow–we’re talking about the man who said that “deficits don’t matter”, as he gave away trillions of taxpayer dollars to his wealthy friends.
wow–we’re talking about a man who turned the united states into a human-rights pariah around the globe.
wow–we’re talking about dick cheney.
but we haven’t really talked about him with the respect he deserves–not until we’re talking about how many years he has been sentenced for his crimes.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Rick Klein’s defending a guy whose final approval rating was 13% ?
March 16th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
the idea of respectful debate has no real meaning unless you actually deny respect to someone
I don’t disagree with your broader point, but I think “respectful debate” can have a meaning where you are respectful to everyone.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
wow- we’re talking about Mr 13% Approval here.
I’m only upset that Gibbs didn’t make an ‘undisclosed location’ gag as well.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
I have to defend Rush Limbaugh a little here.
He’s a drug addict, a glutton, impotent, racist, and vile, that much is true.
However, he isn’t a war criminal like Dick Cheney.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
I don’t disagree with your broader point, but I think “respectful debate” can have a meaning where you are respectful to everyone.
True. So let’s say that “respectful debate” has no significance unless there are some people to whom you aren’t respectful. Currently the action denoted by the phrase is often practiced within DC, but that practice is pointless, except for DC insiders to legitimize themselves and each other.
That being said, I think using the phrase “Republican cabal” is stupid of Gibbs. I think the White House has done a good job of staying above the fray so far, despite all the fretting and hankerchief-twisting about attacking (read: referring to) a private citizen (read: the de facto but not de jure leader of the opposing party). A cabal is a conspiracy. Using that phrase sounds paranoid and alarmist, and gives the Republicans more credit for competency and organization than they have earned. Nitpicking, I know, but still.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Funny, I don’t remember those standards of polite discourse applying to Al Gore…
March 16th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Other “former vice presidents” presumably deserving our obeisance: Quayle, Agnew, and of course Nixon.
March 16th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
“I don’t disagree with your broader point, but I think “respectful debate” can have a meaning where you are respectful to everyone.”
You can’t have a respectful debate with a deranged a-hole, no matter how respectful you are.
Mike
March 16th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Quite the “fuck you” to John King and CNN, too. I doubt they got it.
March 16th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Don’t forget the use of the word “cabal”!!!!!! That word is anti-semitic!!!!!!!!!!!!!
March 16th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Cheney has a vaguely posthumous look to him-presumably we will not be hearing this garbage much longer.
March 16th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Josh Marshall wrote the Cheney article.
March 16th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
does this dumbass really need a whole bunch of people to go and find out if he’s ever trashed Al Gore, who was, of course the Vice President once doncha know?!
March 16th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
really, its a dream of mine, to one day get close enough to Cheney to just punch him in the face. please, if there’s a god, one day soon…
March 16th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
I agree on the merits. It’s not like Al Gore or Dan Quayle (to pick the most obvious two) has ever been subject to mockery on any subject by The Note or any other mainstream news outlet.
More seriously: I’m a little leery of seeing a major blog pointing out how stupid a twitter entry is. It’s twitter, 99% of it is stupid. Don’t waste your time.
March 16th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
I think Cheney’s title wasn’t so much “vice president” as “shadow president”
March 16th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
And that he traded with Iraq during his tenure as head of Halliburton.
He wanted to have sanctions lifed with Iran so Haliburton could trade there. Let’s keep the Asshole Facts straight.
March 16th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
The American People have spoken. Cheney credibility does not exist. Hey, thanks Vader for the two wars, 9/11 catastrophe on his watch, deaths in wars, soldiers committing suicide because of extended duty,(way to run the military), and most of all, thanks for “breaking the world!”
Any words uttered by one of the worst (Cheney) presidents ever, are met with extreme prejudice by everyone.
March 16th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Since we’re starting with The Note as a reference point, can I make another suggestion for your People Not To Respect category? Mark Sanford.
One might point out to South Carolina’s august governor that paying down debt instead of spending the money is akin to saving rather than spending, and for that basic reason, is exactly why the 2008 rebate checks weren’t particularly stimulative. And I fail to see what’s wrong with the DNC saying he’s playing politics with the stimulus since he, you know, is, and blatantly.
But I get the sense both of these points would be lost on him, whether intentionally or because he just doesn’t understand them.
March 16th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
“Twitter” is a device for “twits” of the DC press corps variety, that’s why most of it is stupid. And Rick Klein? WTF is he? Some stenographer of Republican talking points?
Someone pointed out that ex POTUSes and ex VPOTUSes generally wait a couple years before coming out and criticizing the next administration. Why don’t the civil, respectful centrists call Darth Dick on that? IOKIYAR, I guess.
March 16th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Go fuck yourself Rick, Chip.
March 16th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Yeah, I saw that too. Since when do Vice Presidents, former or otherwise, get any kind of respect. If Quayle had launched the same kind of critique, who the hell would pay any attention to him? Gore was a special case because he was also his party’s nominee for President, and barely “lost” the election.
March 16th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Seriously, we should show nothing but the utmost respect to a classy statesman like Vice President Go F*ck Yourself.
March 16th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
And, of course, there’s the whole torture thing.
PEW RESEARCH CENTER FOR THE PEOPLE & THE PRESS
FEBRUARY 2009 POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC SURVEY
Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often
be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?
Often: 16%
Sometimes: 28%
Rarely: 20%
Never: 31%
March 16th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
cabal:
1. a small group of secret plotters, as against a government or person in authority.
2. the plots and schemes of such a group; intrigue.
3. a clique, as in artistic, literary, or theatrical circles.
I’ll take door number three. That’s perfect.
As far as respect goes, who is in authority here? Gibbs was speaking on behalf of an acting president in response to an accusation by a former vice-president that President Obama has taken action that will lead to a terrorist attack. Implied, is the message that Obama is too stupid or careless to be trusted with the presidency.
March 16th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
“can be justified” is the opinion-research equivalent of “Would you go back in time and kill Hitler as a toddler.”
(Personally, I’d do it when I was about 24 or so. I was actually pretty bad-ass at that age. But I digress.)
It’s a phrasing of the torture question designed to be the most abstract, and removed from the reality of approving of actions, policies, or people carrying them out. Which is why it’s the one that the pro-torture minority always points to.
March 16th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
It’s a phrasing of the torture question designed to be the most abstract, and removed from the reality of approving of actions, policies, or people carrying them out.
Well, make up your mind. You just said it’s the opinion-research equivalent of asking a very specific question about killing a specific person, Hitler.
But your claim is just dumb anyway. Since the point of the question is to determine how Americans feel about the ethics of torture in general, it is necessarily abstract. You just can’t stand the fact that people who share your view of torture are a small minority, and that Cheney’s view of torture is far more representative of the views of Americans in general than your insane anti-torture fundamentalism.
March 16th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Cheney’s view of torture is far more representative of the views of Americans in general than your insane anti-torture fundamentalism.
“anti-torture fundamentalism” is called the law of the land. Cheney is a war criminal for authorizing torture. He’s free for advocating a repeal of the law and the Geneva conventions, however. Once again, it’s a convenient abstraction, and those who general align themselves with Cheney are, according to polls, the 13% lunatic fringe, so it doesn’t surprise me that Gibbs would mock him.
March 16th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
“anti-torture fundamentalism” is called the law of the land.
The law of the land doesn’t even provide any clear indication of what counts as torture and what doesn’t. Anti-torture fundamentalism isn’t a legal position, anyway. It’s an (un)ethical one.
Cheney is a war criminal for authorizing torture.
Don’t be so silly. Bill Clinton is a war criminal for bombing Yugoslavia.
and those who general align themselves with Cheney are, according to polls, the 13% lunatic fringe,
Er, 16% of Americans think that torture can “often” be justified. An additional 28% think that torture can “sometimes” be justified. I doubt Cheney’s view of torture is even that permissive. He’s probably in the “rarely justified” category. It’s people like you who are the lunatic fringe, not Cheney.
March 16th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Quoting the results of a Pew Research poll about American attitudes toward torture? Where have I seen that before?
Busted again, Mixner.
March 16th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
You’re not fooling anyone, ‘Chris D’.
March 16th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Not since Carter lost to Reagan has an incumbent party been as soundly repudiated as the Republicans were this past November. Yet the MSM keeps asking the losers for their opinions. I don’t get it.
I do wish Gibbs would resist the impulse to dignify these assholes with a direct attack (though I get the Limbaugh gambit). The right answer is “those issues were thoroughly discussed in the campaign last fall, and the Cheney view was soundly rejected by the voters. Let’s move on.”
March 16th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Some other polling:
So, let’s review: The first poll you cite found that at least 29% of respondents don’t even consider waterboarding to be torture at all. The Pew poll found that almost two-thirds of respondents believe that at least some instances of torture can be justified. Which implies that even many of those who do consider waterboarding to be torture believe that it can be justified in some cases.
The second poll asks whether waterboarding should be “allowed.” Since it doesn’t define “allowed,” it’s hard to interpret the results with respect to the law. But even that poll found that 40% of Americans think waterboarding should be “allowed.”
The phrasing of the question in the third poll is absurdly biased to prime respondents to give the “never acceptable” response, but even so more than a third still responded that torture is “acceptable in some cases.” It also suffers from the vagueness problem since it doesn’t define “acceptable.”
Here is the basic problem for Cheney et al:
Cheney doesn’t have a problem. You do. You want him to be prosecuted but there isn’t the slightest indication that the Obama Administration has any intention of prosecuting him. Or that he would be convicted even if he were prosecuted. How much longer are you going to allow the Obama Administration to get away with letting this “war criminal” get away with his “crimes?” When are you going to write to them demanding action, DTM?
while a majority of the American people may be persuaded that torture could be acceptable in some rare cases (the proverbial ticking time bomb),
Right. Most Americans reject anti-torture fundamentalism.
they don’t find it acceptable for broad use against terrorists. And the latter is what Cheney et al did.
Huh? What “broad use against terrorists?” How many terrorists did Cheney torture? Document your answer.
March 16th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
Mr Cheney should go fuck himself.
March 17th, 2009 at 1:04 am
How many dogs did Mixner fuck?
None, because that would involve going outside.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:22 am
Are you stupid or just being disingenuous? The reason the press “keeps asking the losers for their opinions” is because Obama ran and won as a centrist, not a hardcore partisan, a candidate who intended to bring the country together to face our deep problems in as unified a manner as possible. That set up the Republican mood toward Obama as a kind of test of whether Obama was keeping the most fundamental of his campaign promises — a promise without which it is certain he would have lost.
Instead, Obama has shown himself to be insincere and almost childishly partisan. He can undo this perception easily, but each day chooses not to. It is taking a toll not just on his popularity, but on his political power. The media cannot help but notice the disconnect between the very appealing and commanding Obama of 2008 and the half-baked ward heeler we see now.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:06 am
The dark lord will have his revenge (insert menacing laugh here)
March 17th, 2009 at 6:43 am
Does Cheney realize Obama’s has his Balls in his hands.
I guess he really wants them crushed.
If anyone in America should hope Obama succeeds it should be Bush and Cheney.
If the country doesn’t come out of this downturn by the end of the year you can bet Cheney and Bush prosecutions will be the talk of 2010.
They will put t on the table to completely destroy the Republican party.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Damn, DTM certainly pwned the phony “Americans love torture” argument that Mixner is trying to make.
Well, make up your mind. Playing dumb again, eh Mixner?
You just said it’s the opinion-research equivalent of asking a very specific question about killing a specific person, Hitler.…in a fantasy-land hypothetical involving time-travel, which makes it an abstraction greatly removed from how we think about actual, real-world actions. Which I just explained.
But your claim is just dumb anyway. Since the point of the question is to determine how Americans feel about the ethics of torture in general, it is necessarily abstract. OK, I’ll repeat the point you just whiffed on. It’s a question designed to elevate the matter to the highest level of abstraction – can you conceive of a Platonic ideal of a situation in which torture could be justified? It deliberately removes all of the issues of error, human fallibility, and forward-looking policy, political, and moral implications related to the actual authorization of that torture, as well as any concern about unintended consequences. The question is deliberately structured that way, so as to address the question of torture in a Platonic sense – which can provide some useful insight from an anthropological perspective, but tells us precisely nothing about people’s opinion about whether they endorse having our government torture people.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:00 am
We can see the difference in opinion between the airy-fairy “Can you conceive of a situation when torture would be justified?” type questions vs. questions that actually deal with the realities of torture policies.
When asked whether Americans want people to be tortured, the indicate they do not by huge margins. The % of the people who want our government to be in the torture business is about the same as the % that still like Dick Cheney.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:26 am
I appreciate that point, DTM, and it’s a good one. There will always be value in making the reality of bad acts known, so that people like Cheney and Mixner won’t be able to hide them effectively behind pretty euphemisms.
Yet, it’s clear from the data that people are already pretty familiar with the reality of torture, and have renounced by genuinely heartening numbers. Given that, I’m more concerned with strengthening the deterrence aspect of the anti-torture movements – holding some people accountable so that future would-be-torturers stay their hands – than in the educational aspect of promoting anti-torture sentiment. At least at this moment in history.
March 17th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Has anyone ever mentioned to you, Mr. Klein, that you are a drooling moron?
Of course, why would anyone be surprised, given that you work for MickeyMouseTV? (for those unaware of which corporate behemoth owns what, ABC is owned by Disney, and its headquarters – appropriately – is in the “Sorcerer’s Hat” building at DizzyWorld HQ)
You and the rest of the “Village idiots” are as out of touch with reality as your Wall Street bosses are. Dick Cheney is a war criminal, and war criminals never get “respect.”
March 17th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Cheney deserves the same respect he gave to Senator Leahy. The F**K YOU kind of “respect” that Mr. Cheney displayed in our halls of government. The kind of respect an American hawk deserves who avoids served his country on the field of battle. Since he can’t even properly shoot quail perhaps it was fortunate that he had “other things to do” besides serve in the Vietnam War. Shooting tiny birds and fellow hunters, avoiding armed combat and promoting torture – Cheney is like a hot air ballon with snarling capability. He does have my respect for the best curled lip I’ve seen since Elvis.
March 17th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Here’s hoping, DTM. clink.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
The Republicans disrespected Cheney at the nominating convention, where he wasn’t allowed to speak. Was his name even mentioned? If the Republican Party doesn’t respect Dick Cheney. how does he get any air time?
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