McConnell Warns of American Dystopia — More Equality, Less Poverty, Longer Life Expectancy
Just saw Mitch McConnell (R-Kentucky) on TV warning that the stimulus plan will “turn America into Western Europe.” Terrifying. I just hope we get some nice public gardens like this one I saw in Barcelona:
Western Europe has its pros and cons relative to the United States and since it represents a diversity of different policy environments it doesn’t even really make sense to talk about adopting “European” policies. Still, it strikes me as odd that conservatives seem so convinced that a set of countries whose populations are healthier and longer-lived, and where dramatically fewer children grow up in poverty, is somehow obviously a dystopian nightmare. Indeed, even at the time when living standards really were clearly higher in the United States and tons of Europeans were eager to move here, the people of old continent were hardly clamoring to get into the glamorous world of Kentucky.
Here’s Amsterdam:
Beware!
135 Responses to “McConnell Warns of American Dystopia — More Equality, Less Poverty, Longer Life Expectancy”
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February 10th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Wait — he’s trying to scare us away from that possibility? ‘Cause I’m all for it. But which Europe in the American South going to be like?
February 10th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
SUPERTRAINS!
American south? Gotta be Serbia.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Hey, let’s have more ignorant and uninformed south-bashing on this blog. That would be refreshing.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
In Western European Dystopia, banjo deuls you!
February 10th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
The only thing dystopian about turning America into Western Europe would be the elevation of soccer into something bigger than a niche sport.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Matt, you owe it to your readers not to post graphic content like this without warning. At least put it behind a link. I have a daughter – you know, what if she had walked by and seen happy Europeans and bicycles and nice infrastructure and people struggling under the yolk of generous social insurance? Knock it off!
February 10th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Brad, do you dispute that Kentucky is a crappy state that’s a bad place to raise a family?
February 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
I’m sure the logical follow-up question was asked: “And what exactly is bad about that, Senator?”
February 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Given that the economy of Eastern Kentucky is dominated by marijuana farming, building a new Amsterdam in the Appalachians would actually be an excellent stimulus plan.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
You’d think he’s at least reference *Eastern* Europe, but I guess since some of those countries now have a flat tax that’s out…
February 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Argh…yoke, not yolk
February 10th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
It’s dick-waving–he’s basically going with the ages-old “America=manly men, Europe=total homos” schtick. Every time he says anything in opposition to the stimulus you can mentally add “…you know, unless you’re a pussy” to the end of it to get the full effect.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Good lord, yall like to southern bash on this blog.
Some coastal cities already are like Western Europe in the South.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
As long as we get Dunkin Coffee in the bargain I’m all for it.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Re: and where dramatically fewer children grow up in poverty, is somehow obviously a dystopian nightmare.
It’s true that fewer European children are poor. That is to the immeasurable credit of the social democratic regimes. What Mr. Yglesias fails to mention is that fewer children grow up, period. Thanks to the penchant of cosmopolitan Western-European Yglesians for aborting their children and wilfully rebelling against the naturally procreative purpose of marriage, Europeans are failing to replenish their own populations. With a few notable exceptions of course- Ireland, Portugal and Poland among them.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
As a lifelong resident of the state of Kentucky, I would gladly move to any western European country if I could. Unfortunately, family obligations require that I stay in purgatory.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
It’s a very effective argument with all the people who have never been to europe and haven’t seen to many movies set in europe and don’t know anyone who has lived in europe.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
yeah, I think the implication here is not that the plan will make the US more like Europe in a policy sense, but that it will turn us all into homosexuals.
I’ve written a letter assuring the Senator that when I go gay as mandated in 12-18 months I’ll leave his ass well enough alone. He really has nothing to fear.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
In other words, the answer is Kinder, Küche, Kirche.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Thanks to the penchant of cosmopolitan Western-European Yglesians for aborting their children
Actually the rate of abortion is much lower in Western Europe (10x lower in Holland).
February 10th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
@Hector:
Western Europe is a crowded place. So is rest of the planet, for that matter. I’m not sure why one would think their populations need to be “replenished.”
February 10th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Sen. McConnell, pretend that an ice storm has devastated the economy – what should we do about it?
February 10th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Since we invest heavily in the military that protects Western Europe, so they don’t have to. Who will, in turn, protect us?
February 10th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Wait, did Hector just make a brilliant argument for full reproductive rights? I think so.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Since we invest heavily in the military that protects Western Europe
Protect from what? Eastern Europe? Morocco?
February 10th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
So Europe is like the woods?
February 10th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
I bet if you asked people from Kentucky who had lived for even a short time in Europe as a student or even had spent some time in a major American city if, ceteris paribus, they would rather live in Europe or Kentucky the overwhelming answer would be Europe.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Couldn’t you have come up with a better photo of Amsterdam? Those powerlines, parked bicycles and a car are very appealing. Maybe something with the canals in it? Just a thought.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Just wait 6 months and then ask yourself whether or not the U.S. is better off than the Europeans given the flaws in our system.
The reason why the U.S. will eventually pull out of this mess is precisely why the Europeans are increasingly getting slammed by it…we haven’t spent billions and billions of dollars on social welfare projects that have destroyed our ability to create a dynamic private sector that provides the foundation of any economic revival.
There’s no such thing as a free lunch…and as the Europeans are about to discover, the gravy train may very well be coming to an end.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
We could offer him a sensible compromise and turn just Kentucky into Western Europe.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
a dynamic private sector
Ha ha ha! Oh, my… that’s a good one. Yeah, our dynamic, private financial sector is doing us real proud right now… almost as dynamic as our private manufacturing industry.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
if, ceteris paribus, they would rather live in Europe or Kentucky the overwhelming answer would be Europe. – David
Or as the song goes: “how’re you gonna keep ‘em down on the farm, after they’ve seen Paris?”
February 10th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
ADL poll: 31% of Europeans blame Jews for global financial crisis
By Natasha Mozgavaya, Haaretz Correspsondents and Haaretz Service
Tags: jewish world, anti-semitism
A recent survey conducted by the Anti-Defamation League found that anti-Semitic attitudes in seven European countries have worsened due to the global financial crisis and Israel’s military actions against Palestinians.
Some 31 percent of adults polled blame Jews in the financial industry for the economic meltdown, while 58 percent of respondents admitted that their opinion of Jews has worsened due to their criticism of Israel.
The ADL, a Jewish-American organization polled 3,500 adults – 500 each in Austria, France, Hungary, Poland, Germany, Spain and the United Kingdom – between December 1, 2008 and January 13, 2009.
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According to the survey, 40 percent of polled Europeans believe that Jews have an over-abundance of power in the business world. More than half of the respondents in Hungary, Spain and Poland agreed with this statement. These numbers were 7 percent higher in Hungary, 6 percent higher in Poland and 5 percent higher in France than those recorded in the ADL’s 2007 survey.
Nearly half of the respondents in each of the countries said that Jews were more loyal to Israel than to their home country. Twenty-three percent said that their opinion of Jews was influenced by Israel’s military and political activities.
Another 44 percent of respondents said it was “probably true” that Jews reference the Holocaust too much, while 23% said that they still blame Jews for the death of Jesus.
“This poll confirms that anti-Semitism remains alive and well in the minds of many Europeans,” said Abe Foxman, the National Director of Anti-Defamation League. “In the wake of the global financial crisis, the strong belief of excessive Jewish influence on business and finance is especially worrisome.”
Late last year, the ADL reported a major upsurge in the number of anti-Semitic postings on the Internet relating to the financial crisis engulfing the United States.
The Jewish-American organization cited hundreds of posts regarding the bankrupt investment bank Lehman Brothers and other institutions affected by the subprime mortgage crisis.
The messages railed against Jews in general, with some charging that Jews control the U.S. government and finance as part of a “Jew world order” and therefore are to blame for the economic turmoil.
The arrest of Wall Street financier Bernard Madoff, who allegedly swindled $50 billion from investors, prompted an outpouring of anti-Semitic comments on mainstream and extremist Web sites, according to the ADL.
The ADL said some of the posts on the highly trafficked sites spread conspiracy theories about Jews stealing money to benefit Israel and suggest that, “Only Jews could perpetrate a fraud on such a scale.”
These and other anti-Jewish tropes about Jews and money have appeared on popular blogs devoted to finance, in comment sections of mainstream news outlets and in banter among users of Internet discussion groups, according to the ADL.
“Jews are always a convenient scapegoat in times of crisis, but the Madoff scandal and the fact that so many of the defrauded investors are Jewish has created a perfect storm for the anti-Semites,” Foxman said last year, following news of the Internet hate messages.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Well, never lived in Kentucky. But I have lived in Sweden, England, and Arlington, VA (which I assume qualifies as a major American city). As well as 25 years in Knoxville, TN. which I willingly left DC to move back to.
I’d rather live in Knoxville, personally. Ceteris paribus.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Strasmangelo,
I’m not sure what you mean…Based on your petty remark it would seem to me that you’re suggesting that we don’t have a dynamic private sector, because the U.S. economy is currently in the tank. So, let me get this straight…In the history of the United States, we either have a dynamic private sector, or a static private sector (or manufacturing sector) and that’s what determines economic performance? Honestly, have you ever participated in a market economy?
February 10th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
I like how Hector unknowingly makes the argument that having more reproductive rights means fewer kids grow up in poverty. Perhaps maybe he’ll consider that maybe it’s a good thing single mothers in poverty don’t have that extra kid.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
“maybe it’s a good thing single mothers in poverty don’t have that extra kid.”
Or eight…
February 10th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Ed Smithe, the point seems to be that “dynamic private sector” is basically an empty, meaningless phrase, particularly when saying that it has anythign to do with the existence or lack of existence of “social welfare projects.”
And, of course, the fact that the paragon of our “dynamic private sector” was the finance industry, precisely what created this mess in the first place.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
I suppose we Kentuckians deserve this, as we reelected McConnell, but Louisville is a great city, and Lexington has a lot going for it. We also produce amazing liquor, which helps.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
duBois,
Fair enough, but they spend a great deal of their GDP on social welfare programs which have stunted their ability to create private sector jobs. Now…they can continue to fund and create those public sector jobs…but that impacts each nation’s bottom line. There’s a reason why Greece and Italy are clamoring for the ability to devalue their currency…They can’t afford their obligations and don’t have the ability to send these obligations over to the private sector. The same thing is beginning to happen in places like Germany…or even the UK where they’re on the hook for not only their committmentments (read ENTITLEMENTS) to their citizens, but their financial institutions (should they choose to bail them out) as well.
The U.S….precisely because we haven’t spent a great deal of our money on setting up an alternative to the market…is in far better shape to piss away money on wars, weapons, and in this case, rescues. Our debt to GDP ratio combined with our JOB CREATING economy can shoulder that unfortunate burden. The Euros are in a much more difficult position…especially as the East and Russia (where a great deal of their financial activity has been over the past 15 years) are coming apart.
I’m not saying the system is perfect, or that our decisions (READ IRAQ) have been good over the past 200+ years…But the bottom line is that we’re much better suited to deal with this than Europe.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Actually Lexington is a very nice city– good food, nightlife, and coffee.
On an unrelated note, it is really kind to allow the mentally challenged (e.g., Hector) to post here.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Hector – Hate to burst your bubble buddy, but Poland, despite having a very high number of observant Catholics, has a fairly low birth rate. Its 10.01 births per 1000 population is lower than stridently secular countries like the Netherlands (10.53/1000) and Sweden (10.15/1000). Portugal’s 10.45 per 1000 birth rate ain’t so high either.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Yeah Europe has been just about to pay the piper for that “free lunch” since Reagan was in office. You’d think some of the same people were still standing in line waiting for a doctor’s appointment.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Mitch McConnell has the most absurd looking neck/chin that I have ever seen.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Drew W,
That’s not the point, the point is that the Poles and Portuguese do not engage in legalized butchery of their children.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Nor do they indulge in stupid hipster burblings about ‘autonomy’ and ‘choice’.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Tyro,
Dynamic private sector means the ability to create jobs in a multitude of different industries. The financial sector is one of many sectors of our economy.
So no…it’s not an “empty meaningless phrase.” It’s actually the difference between economic resiliency and economic collapse in this environment.
Let me ask you something…The U.S. manufacturing sector has been pummeled over the past decade plus…What has that meant for the overall U.S. economy? Then ask yourself what a manufacturing collapse would do to a country like China, or even Germany for that matter. That’s what it means to have a dynamic private sector.
Things are bad, yes. But this isn’t the end of the world…and the U.S. will be just fine.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Wiley,
Those folks that were standing in line are dead. They were the one’s that came in with a real disease and were told to wait 6 months for a specialist. I don’t know about you, but when I need to see a specialist I go see one. That doesn’t happen terribly often in Europe I’m sorry to say.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
And for the record. Mitch McConnell is a moron.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Hector -
Are you really trying to tell me Poland and Portugal’s low birth rates are not a product of either child “murder,” as the Catholic Church (and you, presumably) defines it? Please. Low birth rates are product of contraception and abortion.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Actually, our debt-to-GDP ratio is about on par with France’s and a little lower than Germany’s.
We have the benefit of a growing population and healthy venture capital markets. it’s not the social welfare problem that western european countries confront. Invariably it’s many labor laws and other business regulations.
Given that the stimulus package doesn’t seem to be about micromanagement labor law regulations, I’m not really sure your objections apply, Smithe, or that the difference between the US and western europe is how diverse our economy is. Germany, France, and the UK have rather diverse economies, too that aren’t wholly dependent on manufacturing.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
“Stupid hipster burbling”? Ahahahahahahaha…
February 10th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
ACTually, the public garden in the first picture is shudder-inducing. Large dusty pathways/piazza/whatever with a side of “those ugly mediterranean trees with no leaves” aren’t my vision for America’s public spaces (although fine for the water-deprived Catalonians…)
The building in the second picture is nice, but the picture itself is ugly because of all the transmission wires. CONCEPT: why don’t we spend some money on getting all those nasty wires underground?
February 10th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
I don’t understand the purpose of the Kentucky crack, other than to affirm coastal liberal stereotypes. First, all of those white Kentuckians’ ancestors came from Europe at some point or another. As others have noted, Louisville and Lexington are nice cities, and the eastern part of the state, while economically depressed, has quite a bit of natural beauty.
More to the point, the idea that “glamour” had anything to do with European migration to this country makes you look pretty silly, Matt. I have no idea whether Kentucky received more or less than its share of European immigrants in the late 19th/early 20th century. I do know that there is nothing glamorous about Buffalo, or Newark, or Lowell Mass., or the mines and steel mills of Western Pa., nor is there anything glamourous about the immigrant jobs or immigrant neighborhoods in glamourous places like NYC, Boston, Chicago, SF, and the like. They weren’t thinking about glamour, they were thinking about feeding their families.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Tyro,
Actually, it depends on how you measure it. If you’re measuring Total Debt, then yes…it’s on par with Germany and France.
But total debt is not widely regarded as a good measure for evaluating the ability of the government to assume additional obligations without negative effects to say…its PPP. For that, look at U.S. public debt. It’s about half as large as Germany and France.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
And let’s not forget that Kentucky produces the finest thoroughbred horses on earth.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Speaking as a KY resident, it’s embarrassing that Mitch wasn’t ditched. His opponent was a rich businessman with sketchy Democratic principles. Mitch hasn’t stood up for Kentuckians in quite a while, aside from bringing back whatever pork he brings back.
I think the part of KY I’m in is a good place to raise a family, but as a whole KY ranks low in a bunch of education and poverty measures.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
It is amazing how many comments in this thread seem taken straight out of the 90’s. The American economy is in great shape and obviously superior thanks to its dynamism? Hello, read the news, it is collapsing. I feel like I’m reading The Economist during the Clinton years, ranting about “entitlements” and the need to privatize everything week after week.
I don’t know about you, but when I need to see a specialist I go see one. That doesn’t happen terribly often in Europe I’m sorry to say.
Then why is life expectancy higher there?
February 10th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
I happened to be in Kentucky this past weekend. They recently got hit by a devastating ice storm. I believe most people are back up and running just fine by now, but I also heard about a lot of folks still without power about two weeks after the storm. Now this a state with a lot of remotely located residents, but it still seems crazy to me that so many have had to go so long without basic utilities.
And here you have their elected senator shouting about how domestic spending never improves anyone’s quality of life ever. What kind of a state allows their representatives to be so criminally unaware of his constituents’ circumstances?
February 10th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Point taken on the regulations. You’re absolutely right. But that’s one of the reasons why their economies have been hurt. When your business can’t function in say, Germany, what do you do? For many companies, they took their businesses Eastward.
The same is true with SOX and the U.S.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
“healthy venture capital markets.”
You haven’t tried to secure venture funding recently, have you? My client is getting funding, but it’s coming from Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Dubai. We’re also looking at Bahrain for more. A lot of credit is still frozen in the US and we have to look elsewhere.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
when I need to see a specialist I go see one.
As do I. Well, first I make an appointment with one. Then I wait for an opening. Then I get to see one.
Seriously, people wait for a few months to see a specialist all the time in the USA. Even people at the dreaded NHS can see a PCP on relatively short notice. I have to echo “Why oh why”– this thread sounds like a 90s nostalgia fest.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
@andthenyoufall: those are not transmission wires but tram/trolly wires, you know, as in: public transportation. ALL our wiring is underground, thank you very much.
As for many of the other comments on demographics (abortion) and USA vs Europe economic models: it actually reads like you’re pulling most of your info out of your asses. Jeez. Ask me specifically, and I’ll join the ‘fun’.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Why oh why:
It’s complicated…See below.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20228552.
Trust me on this one. If you have cancer…the last place that you’d want to be is in Europe. Unless of course you have a lot of money. But with a lot of money, that gives one a few more options.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Tyro,
How long on average does it take to see an oncologist in the NHS?
I rest my case.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
I swear to God, with my first comment I was going to make a pre-emptive joke about Hector soon arriving with his Crusades / Muslims taking over / abortions / High Church manias, but I decided to avoid rubbing the turd lamp hoping that particular odor would not appear.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
John M,
The Southern bashing is for their politics not the people.
It is a fact that the South is dominated by low tax, low service governments. Not sure where Kentucky ranks but it isn’t a coincidence that he lowest ranked schools in the country are in places like Alabama, Mississippi and Arkansas. The highest levels of poverty are in the southern states, and so on.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
And Tyro…It’s very rare that someone would wait more than a few weeks to see a specialist in the U.S. Unless of course you have Medicare or Medicaid (our try at socialized medicine).
Granted…It’s difficult for folks without insurance. Having said that though, given the quality of treatment in the U.S., I’d much rather have the problems that we have over here than the ones that you have in the U.K. And while many Britons take a degree of pride in the NHS, most admit that the service is disaster.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Trust me on this one. If you have cancer…the last place that you’d want to be is in Europe.
Mainly because if you die, you’ll be leaving behind a pleasant life?
February 10th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Brad: I made the South joke because I live here, and I’m wondering what sort of Europe Mitch McConnell & co are fearing Georgia will turn into.
As a life-long Southerner, I will make my South-bashing as informed as I can, just as my friends from other areas of the country make their region-bashing as informed as they can.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
ANd like most right wing hacks smithe of course cheery picks the UK.
Yeah there health care is the worst in europe, because they don’t spend any money on it! You won’t any liberals proposing the UK system here, try Germany or Switzerland or Sweden or France.
That is the other trick they pull is shouting about the evil bogeyman of socialism and applying it to western europe as if it is all one monolithic thing. Then they cherry pick the worst of say the French labor laws and imply that any increase in social spending means that, while ignoring that countries like Denmark manage to have very flexible US style labor policies and strong social safety nets.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
All I know is that if Hector and his pals ever get to run this country, I’m putting all my money into a company that makes hairshirt onesies.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Good point eric k. I wonder why right-wingers always refer to France or the UK when talking about socialism, when Scandinavian countries are much closer to actual socialism (even Communist leaders used to look at Sweden with admiration, as an example of communism done right).
Could it be because those Nordic countries have a positive image, and always top any kind of human development rankings?
February 10th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Smithe, I don’t even think that the NHS is very good at all, but even I can realize that claims of long waits for most services are mostly mythmaking, whereas here in the USA, there are plenty of specialties requiring long waits, particularly if you’re limited to in-network specialists. And I note you compare the US to the NHS rather than, say, to France.
As I said, we’re cribbing talking points from the 90s when we were afraid that Clinton was going to pass a national health care program. I can’t really see how McConnell’s claims are much of a “threat.” The prospect of turning into India, a place with extreme poverty an chaotic social services and lots of corruption is more of a worry. Or turning into a southern European kleptocracy is much more of something I’d worry about. The threat of turning into Western Europe? Meh. Doesn’t get my dander up.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Also, I have to wonder, why isn’t Japan used as a symbol of a dystopian society that America might fall into? They have a declining population, universal health coverage, a stagnant stock market, and a seriously stagnant economy, even though everyone seems to live with a decent quality of life, even if their apartments are small.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
What’s up with the photo of the police station down the road where I live?
By the way, that aren’t powerlines. Or, rather they are, but they’re for the tram.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Eric K,
The reason why I picked the UK is because Tyro disputed my point based upon his experience with the NHS.
This is not a conspiracy…take your pick. France, Switzerland (which is a small state) or Germany. When it comes to diseases like cancer…serious diseases…none of them hold a candle to the U.S. for the average patient.
As for Europe, you’ve got it all backwards. Conservatives look at Europe on a case by case basis. It’s liberals that think that the EU has made Europe a coherent entity.
As for Denmark, they’re a tiny little country in the northern part of Europe that also happens to be in a bit of a economic conundrum these days. They haven’t escaped reality. So what if they have flexible labor laws…Why work when you’ve got a lavish safety net.
If Denmark is so good, then how many jobs have they created there in the last 25 years? Exactly.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Simple. For folks like Smithe, the Japanese are NOT the French. Your point, however, is an excellent one.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Trust me on this one. If you have cancer…the last place that you’d want to be is in Europe.
Trust me on this one, Smithe: you’re full of shite.
Or take it up with the people whose chemotherapy is now being operated from a basement with a donation box at the front desk.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Denmark is just one example, take Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, etc.
And your line about the EU is just nonsense. Liberals take it for what it is, it is right wing loons who talk about the threat of one world government.
I’ll give you guys props for staying power at least, your ilk has been making the same misinformed arguments for 40 years and hasn’t let being continually wrong stop you:-)
February 10th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Tyro,
Doesn’t get my dander up either. We’re eventually going to get there whether we like it or not.
My only point for responding to this post is that people seem to believe that this is a good thing without any warts. I disagree. The last 200+ years has been a better thing for the U.S. (warts and all) than it has for Europe. And there are reasons for that.
As for the NHS, you haven’t answered my question. Let me give you two examples of friends of mine that had breast cancer and lymphoma respectively. The first was told that she’d have to wait 3 months to see a specialist. She had money…so she flew to the U.S. to be treated. The second had to wait two and a half months to see a specialist…when he finally got in, they discovered that the cancer was more advanced than they had thought. He eventually died.
Plenty of people die of cancer in the U.S., no doubt. But few of them are told that they’re going to have to wait months to find out just how serious a potentially rapidly spreading disease is progressing. That really doesn’t happen often in the U.S.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Trust me on this one. If you have cancer…the last place that you’d want to be is in Europe.
Not afraid to use hyperboles, huh? Or do you really think cancer patients receive better treatments in Ethiopia or North Korea than in Western Europe?
By the way, since your link didn’t work, please answer the question: if waiting lines are so horrific in Europe, why do people live longer there?
February 10th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Eric K,
Sweden is about to get crushed by all of it’s bad loans to the Baltics.
Denmark is a country that hasn’t competed with anyone in 50 years.
Norway has enough oil to pay for everything.
All three are terrible examples that do more to hurt your case than make it.
As for the EU, some loons are concerned about world government. Me, I realize that process without foundation won’t get you anywhere near that. That’s why the EU sucks…because there is no such thing as Europe. Have you ever heard anyone say that they would die for “Europe?”
As for folks like you, you believe that if you pass enough regulations or communiques, that nationalism will just disappear. You don’t in any way shape or form take it as it is…you take it as you’d have it be.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Ed Smithe–
Do you happen to have any actual facts upon which to base your assertion (that one will die of cancer faster in, say, the U.K. vs. the U.S.)? The MSNBC link is dead.
And is there a reason you’ve decided to ignore things like the leading cause of death in the U.S. (heart disease), the millions without insurance who can’t afford to see any doctor, those with insurance who still get hosed on bills, the 50% of American bankruptcies that are due to medical debt, etc.?
Or are you just yanking old 90s GOP talking points out of your ass?
Thanks.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
BTW, you folks realize that MY often makes this same post, which generates comments of similar quality and quantity.
Invariably, some security-state libertarian wanders over, poo pooing all notions that the quality of life in Western Europe is high, both absolutely and, in certain dimensions, relatively (compared to the US). Some particular ailment, such as cancer, is identified as the justification for poo pooing, and bonus points are earned for “stories about the infirm.”
Anyway, it drives traffic, and allowed me to waste 20 minutes while waiting for a colleague. What more do you want from blogging?
February 10th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Sweden is about to get crushed by all of it’s bad loans to the Baltics.
Sweden is going through bad times, like every other country in the world. Thanks to its social safety net, most Swedes will likely fare better than the average American.
Denmark is a country that hasn’t competed with anyone in 50 years.
What does that even mean?
Norway has enough oil to pay for everything.
Lots of countries have oil. Not many of those are like Norway.
I’m beginning to understand why conservatives don’t like to talk about Scandinavians social democracies.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Smithe, I actually don’t think that the NHS is a good model. But for all of the claims of long waits, they get promptly treated in plenty of situations as well. Meanwhile, in the US, you can still find people who claim that the NHS won’t do dialysis.
I’m one of those people who’s at least had a chance to explore the possibility of working in Europe, and while those opportunities didn’t quite work out, in the end, the intersection of opportunities would have landed me in the US, anyway. But that’s only because my lifestyle and profession provide me with a quality of life that’s comparable to what tourists to western europe get to experience. If eastern Kentucky and parts of Appalachia get better access to infrastructure an services that leave them in a state comparable to western europe, I can’t help but think that’s a good thing. Our “dynamic” economy hasn’t done much to help people in Michigan, now has it?
February 10th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
“The American economy is in great shape and obviously superior thanks to its dynamism? Hello, read the news, it is collapsing.”
It’s still in better shape than Western Europe’s economy. Spain has 14% unemployment now. Britain is in a hand basket to hell as well.
“Then why is life expectancy higher there?”
For a few reasons:
1) They don’t have as many car accidents and homicides.
2) They don’t have as much obesity.
3) They don’t have blacks (who have lower life expectancies) comprising 12% of their population.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-560161/Prostate-cancer-death-rate-falls-times-faster-U-S-UK-routine-screening.html
That’s prostate cancer, one of the easiest cancers to cure these days.
And no, I haven’t ignored things like heart disease. The MSNBC link that I tried to post pointed out that one of the reasons why the US has a lower life expectancy was because our lifestyle allows us to choose to be fat and lazy. An unfortunate consequence of our dynamic private sector I’d posit.
As for insurance, no, I haven’t ignored that either. Indeed, I’ve said that it’s a problem. But I view it as less of a problem than not having the ability to screen men for prostate cancer, or for that matter, providing access to advanced drugs and technology. If the later is a consequence of giving everyone health insurance…I’ll take the US system and work on increasing the folks that don’t have health care.
Despite your page out of the tired left-wing playbook, we can do that without a single-payer system.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
1) They don’t have as many car accidents and homicides.
2) They don’t have as much obesity.
Why? It is understandable that there are more car accidents in the US, but are Americans just supposed to be fat murderers? Better education could certainly lower those numbers.
3) They don’t have blacks (who have lower life expectancies) comprising 12% of their population.
Never mind that some Europeans are actually blacks…
But why do blacks have lower life expectancies here? Better health care would benefit most the poorest Americans, among which blacks are disproportionally represented.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Sweden won’t have any money to pay for people. That’s the problem. The U.S. on the other hand doesn’t have that problem because we have business that actually create jobs. Do you understand that? When the Swedes can’t afford to hire people, or keep them on the dole…WHERE DO THEY GO?
Denmark, for all of it’s spending, is going to get hit with the rest of the Scandos in this economic wave.
Norway is unique given that the oil can support its entire economy. If we had that much oil, we’d probably be doing something similar.
I’m more than happy to talk about the Northerns. It’s you who’s more than happy to ignore their problems. Give this thing six months and then post on this forum.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
And I note you compare the US to the NHS rather than, say, to France.
The French health care system is going bankrupt.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Duh! It’s ’cause the lines take so long!!!
February 10th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Matt,
Given your fondness for Europe and your ability to telecommute with your job, why don’t you move to Europe and blog from there? I could understand if you were living in D.C. because you did a lot of hands-on political reporting, but you don’t.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Sweden won’t have any money to pay for people. That’s the problem. The U.S. on the other hand doesn’t have that problem because we have business that actually create jobs. Do you understand that?
Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? We lost 3 million jobs in the last year, and numbers don’t show any improvement in the last month.
Sweden won’t have any money to pay for people. That’s the problem. [...] Norway is unique given that the oil can support its entire economy.
The real problem is that every single one of your sentences is fact-free.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Listening to McConnell always makes my skin crawl. That wad of stupid he’s always chewing splatters all over the place when he spits it out…
February 10th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
The natural ressources are not limited to oil. And given the ratio of territory to population US inhabitants are much wealthier than Europeans. That is the great advantadge of the USA. However that is not a moral virtue.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
I think the big question about the European system is whether or not the various welfare states can be sustained. There’s probably no one answer to that–I suspect that Northern Europe will fare better than Southern Europe on that front.
It’s great that they have reasonable growth with a relatively generous social services (which I’ll be taking advantage of if I lose my job, or when my children are school age), but if they can’t attract enough workers to continue those services, particularly generous retirements, it will start to look less attractive.
None of which is to say that Mitch McConnell knows his ass from a hole in the ground.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Wasn’t the prostate cancer myth busted during the primaries?
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/10/rudy_miscalculates_cancer_surv.html
February 10th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Senator Mitch McConnell’s constituents are the only people in this country stuck in worse shitholes than the American Indians and Mississippi Negros.
And ole Mitch’s constituents are white men. Too fucking dumb to realize how they’re being fucked by ole Mitch and his Republican pals.
And when i say shitholes, I’m not talking about temporary recessions — I’m talking long term (40 years +) periods of getting the shitty end of the commode brush.
See http://www.courier-journal.com/assets/B28846925.GIF
Or goggle “Rural persistent poverty counties”
February 10th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
You can understand the plight of the American Indians — they have been buttfucked by the US Army for 200 years. Plus Bill Clinton’s Department of the Interior stole all those royalties that the Indians had coming to them.
Same for Mississippi Negros — history of being enslaved , then terrorized by a white majority and the KKK.
But Mitch McConnell’s constituents don’t have any excuse for being the bitches of the US socio-economic system. Other than their own stupidity and docility.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Given your fondness for Europe and your ability to telecommute with your job, why don’t you move to Europe and blog from there?
He probably doesn’t qualify for a work visa.
Wasn’t the prostate cancer myth busted during the primaries?
No.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Note that the USDA’s definition of the above rural poverty-persistent counties are counties which have had 20 percent or more of their households below the poverty level since 1970. If you look at the detailed data, you will see that some of the counties in Mitch McConnell’s Kentucky garden spot have had poverty rates of 30 to 40 percent.
So why doesn’t Obama go into eastern Kentucky and point out to Mitch McConnell’s constituents that ole Mitch and the Republicans ain’t been all that generous to them.
Maybe Obama should do what Jesse Jackson did in the 1980s ,when he was trying to build the Rainbow Coalition. Go into eastern Kentucky and tell them that he’s trying to round up the nigger vote. That he hasn’t seen people so fucked since he worked in the ghettos of Chicago. That it don’t matter if their skin is white — he knows niggers when he sees them and he want them to vote for him.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
I get the feeling that most of the people here talking about life in Europe have, quite literally, no idea what they’re talking about.
Having lived in Switzerland, France and Sweden for a total of nearly 7 years (skewed towards Switzerland), I’d assert that it’s not nearly as different as people here seem to think. The variation between countries in Europe is greater than the overall variation between Europe and the US. Life in Spain != life in England != life in Germany.
The recession will likely take longer to recover from in most European countries, but the impact on the median European will be smaller than that of the median American. Given a opportunity to trade efficiency for equity, Europeans do so at a higher rate than Americans, but not drastically so.
February 10th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
I think the reason many Americans are prone to hating things labeled “Europe” has a lot to do with historical patterns of economic development going back to the colonial era and extending through the national period. The persistent differences between the agricultural/colonial settler frontier that swept inward across the continent and the commercial-urban regions predicated upon water transport (the ports of Boston, NYC, Philly, Baltimore, and so on, obviously, but also places like Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, New Orleans, Memphis to a lesser extent, etc. Also obviously the Pacific Coast) is orientation and attitude towards the outside world. McConnell’s constituents have never been positively disposed towards the outside world; there’s very little economic reason to for them, and when you consider the terrors the market brings (debt prison, e.g.), good reason to avoid it. If you’re a Bostonian, on the other hand, or a Philadelphian, you have a history of engaging with Europe (and Africa, and Asia, etc.) that goes back hundreds of years in a direct line.
Makes for different sorts of political rhetoric.
February 10th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Exactly. For the last few decades, middle class (not to mention working class) incomes have been stagnant. IOW, the average (or median) American hasn’t benefited much, if at all, from all that dynamism that Euro-bashers talk about. And he doesn’t have the social insurance that Europeans enjoy. This is what you call “lose-lose.”
February 10th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
For the last few decades, middle class (not to mention working class) incomes have been stagnant. IOW, the average (or median) American hasn’t benefited much, if at all, from all that dynamism that Euro-bashers talk about.
I think this is totally wrong. The material wealth of the typical American is dramatically higher than that of the typical European. A comparison of housing illustrates the difference well. American houses in general are just much bigger and much better-appointed than European ones. In Britain, it’s rare for even middle-class families to live in a detached house. What in America would be a fairly typical single-family detached home with two or more bathrooms, a den or family room, a 2-car garage, air conditioning, etc. would be well beyond the means of the average British family.
February 10th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Just a quick comment on the ‘Photo’ I recognize the location in AMSTERDAM – it is in one of my favorite neighborhoods. The restaurant around the corner caters to locals who hang out for breakfast and lunch discussing politics and art. Such a horrible dystopia to be caught up in !
February 10th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
In a sense, it’s kinda cool that Matt has actually created a job for a troll. I’m guessing the troll spends time on 3-4 liberal blogs pumping out the BS. Poor Ryan has gotten stuck with the Ixnermay duty, wonder what sin he committed to merit that punishment? Must have been something bad…
The sad apart is that when the thread has hit 106 comments you know it’s probably the troll, who never has anything interesting to say.
Most people don’t seem to understand that, even at the height of immigration, about a third of the immigrants stayed a few years, and then went home. We hear a lot from the people who stayed, and naturally they all tell us that things are way better here than where they came from. They pretty much have to believe that to justify having stayed.
February 10th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Uh, sanchez, if it’s not paid for…it’s not material wealth. And if it’s just status-seeking bloat, as seen on our highways and in our parking lots…it’s not “wealth”. In fact, last summer tens of millions of Americans discovered that their “wealth” had become a millstone around their necks, as they dragged an unnecessary extra ton of car thirty miles down the road to their job so they could keep paying for their too-large house and yard.
And now they think they’re lucky if they even still have a job. Losing the job would quite literally be the death of a lot of them, as they would lose access to the medical care that keeps us alive after we enjoy all that “wealth”.
February 10th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
“The reason why the U.S. will eventually pull out of this mess is precisely why the Europeans are increasingly getting slammed by it…we haven’t spent billions and billions of dollars on social welfare projects that have destroyed our ability to create a dynamic private sector that provides the foundation of any economic revival.”
per capita income:
USA: 45,725
Ireland: 43,414
Switzerland: 41,265
Sweden: 36,578
Norway: 53,152
Denmark: 38,207
Netherlands: 38,995
Germany: 34,212
Austria: 38,181
Luxembourg: 79,660
Finland: 35,349
Japan: 33,596
Canada: 38,614
Taiwan: 30,322
Conclusion: many Western European countries have similar amounts of economic activity to Canada and are generally above Japan (neither of which can be classified as poor nations).
February 10th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Uh, sanchez, if it’s not paid for…it’s not material wealth.
Uh, cat, the Brits have even bigger debts than we do. And despite the alarmist reports you may have seen in certain media, the vast majority of American families are not in danger of losing their homes.
February 10th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
A comparison of housing illustrates the difference well. American houses in general are just much bigger and much better-appointed than European ones. In Britain, it’s rare for even middle-class families to live in a detached house.
This is just ridiculous chauvinism.
The attached/detached house choice is a matter of preferences driving land prices — Europeans are mostly happy to trade side yards (really useful) for convenience and short commutes. There are farmhouses available for those who prefer it the American way.
European countries have five hundred years of legacy housing stock, while the US built it all from scratch in the last century. Of course US housing will be newer and ‘nicer.’ Then again, a lot of affluent Americans would kill for architectural detailing like you routinely find in lower-middle class houses in Budapest or Vienna.
February 10th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
This is just ridiculous chauvinism.
Well, that’s a ridiculous statement.
The attached/detached house choice is a matter of preferences driving land prices
No, it’s a matter of differences in real wealth. It’s not that Britons don’t want bigger and better houses, it’s that they can’t afford them. Detached homes in Britain are associated with the rich.
European countries have five hundred years of legacy housing stock, while the US built it all from scratch in the last century.
Lots of new housing has been built in the UK over the past few decades, and it isn’t remotely up to American standards of size and comfort.
February 10th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
That material wealth can turn into dead weight very quickly.
February 10th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Well, the UK has 60 million people crammed into a space the size of Oregon while maintaining and active agricultural sector. While sanchez is exaggerating the degree to which SFHs are supposedly unavailable in the UK, obviously landuse patterns are going to be denser than in the USA.
If you want a big house on lots of land, the US is the place to live, particularly given the wide availability nowadays in the greater Phoenix area. You’re still stuck with the crumbling public infrastructure and the risk of losing everything due to uncovered medical bills, but the availability of land in the US isn’t going anywhere and we can do something about our infrastructure and services. It’s not going to magically shrink the size of the country.
February 10th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
@BA:
I, and I hope most readers of this blog, agree that anti-semitism = not good. There are, however, some demographic circumstances making the figures you posted somewhat misleading. I will use France as an example. Western Europe, for obvious reasons, has a small Jewish population. In France, which has the largest population of Jews in Western Europe, they represent less than .01 percent of the population. At the same time, there are large numbers of Arabs and Muslims, many of them recent immigrants. In France, they make up about 10% of the population. For geopolitical reasons, members of these groups are more likely to hold negative views of Jews, and particularly of Israel. Even if other citizens of the country don’t interact with this population much, they are a big enough group that their views will affect the culture; also, they are going to be picked up in a survey. For comparison, in the United States, Jews make up 2.2% of the population, a much more substantial number. Muslims are a much poorer geopolitical proxy in the United States because of the Black Muslim movement, so I will use Arab Americans, who make up 0.5% of the population. (If you prefer to use Muslims as a proxy, they make up about 0.6%.) Many Arab-Americans are Lebanese, and many of these are descended from immigrants who came in the 18th and 19th century. They thus are further separated temporally from a direct relation to events in the region today. Anti-semitism in Europe is a problem, but before we pat America on the back,it is necessary to look at the ground in which the problem is rooted.
February 10th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Well, the UK has 60 million people crammed into a space the size of Oregon while maintaining and active agricultural sector.
It’s not a matter of population density. Britain has large areas undeveloped land. Many areas within the U.S. have population densities higher than the UK average.
and the risk of losing everything due to uncovered medical bills
That risk is very low and is also a risk for people in Britain. The major economic threat from illness is not medical bills, anyway. It’s loss of income.
February 10th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
In France, which has the largest population of Jews in Western Europe, they represent less than .01 percent of the population. At the same time, there are large numbers of Arabs and Muslims, many of them recent immigrants. In France, they make up about 10% of the population.
Why post a comment if you have no idea what you are talking about? And I mean: no idea whatsoever, not even able to give numbers accurate enough to be credible.
February 10th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
This smarmy but presumably accurate article from the Independent tells you all you need to know about what the right wing imagines Europe to be.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ship-of-fools-johann-hari-sets-sail-with-americas-swashbuckling-neocons-457074.html
February 11th, 2009 at 12:35 am
That’s true, sanchez, but in the high-density areas of the US we’re starting to see detached housing go away. It’s only being propped up on Long Island by the stickiness of zoning, for instance.
In any event, I’m not at all convinced that it makes sense to talk about the unavailability of affordable deteched housing when housing policy has been specifically designed around providing relatively little of that kind of housing in the mix. I’m not really familiar with the UK’s system, but in Germany it’s absolutely a matter of choice; they’ve organized their system around dense developments set among fields and parks. We could have done the same thing in the metro NY area, but instead we outsourced our farming to California and put detached housing on all the former fields.
February 11th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Why oh why,
That’s actually a very good point. My economic views tend towards the socialist, not the social-democratic, and I normally have very little time for social democracy, given that I see it as just another form of capitalism with the wealth spread around a bit.
I do, however, have a lot of admiration for the Scandinavian countries. It seems to me that they’ve generally accomplished what many of the other social democracies haven’t, which is to build socialist values and virtues along with creating redistributive economic structures. Scandinavians do seem to generally believe in equality, hard work, self-sacrifice and cooperation, which are what socialism is supposed to be about. I wouldn’t say that Sweden is an example of ‘communism done right’, but I would say that it’s a country that works, without question, and it’s living proof that sometimes the capitalists can be more truly socialist than the “socialists” (and that the secularists can be more truly Christian than the “Christians”). How generalizable the Swedish model is to other countries, and in particular whether it would work in third world countries, is of course a separate question. But there’s no question it works for the Scandinavians, and works damn well.
Actually, Fred, the Scandinavians may not have much _obesity_, but they do have a lot of cardiovascular disease, due to the meat- and dairy-heavy diet. They achieve their great health outcomes _in spite of_ their unhealthy diet, not because of them. Which in a sense makes their health care system even more impressive. As for your ruminations about racial theory, I’ll leave that to others to correct.
February 11th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
I don’t know about you, but when I need to see a specialist I go see one. That doesn’t happen terribly often in Europe I’m sorry to say.
I don’t know about you, but here in the US when I need to go see a specialist my insurance company tells me I need to see my regular doctor first and get a referral. Then a few weeks later when I have one, they tell me I can’t see the specialist because the procedure isn’t covered. That doesn’t happen terribly often in Europe I’m happy to say.
February 12th, 2009 at 4:24 am
As a going-on-5-year civilian expat here in Germany, I concur. A lot of the “analysis” that goes on is on par with that hilarious map of the U.S. after the collapse recently cited in the WSJ.
In my particular case, I’ve had to see a medical specialist for a rare eye disorder and had the same level of prompt medical care, with less difficulty getting it paid for, here than I ever did in the U.S. Anecdotal, for sure, but there you go.
In any event, I’ve marked my calendar with Ed Smithe’s “Europe is doomed, just wait one Friedman Unit and you’ll see!” prediction. Indeed, we will see.
March 11th, 2009 at 4:41 am
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