Avigdor Lieberman Boosted By Pro-Pork Backlash
One of the oddities of Israeli politics is that Avigdor Lieberman’s far-right anti-Arab Yisrael Beitenu party is also a staunch upholder of secularism, since its primary source of support is immigrants from the former Soviet Union, who tend to be secular and many of whom like eating pork. And soon before the last election, the ultra-orthodox Shas party stepped up its anti-pork rhetoric. This, according to Jeffrey Yoskowitz, likely helped drive some secular voters away from Likud and toward Lieberman, in order to save their pork:
In lambasting the sausages and pork chops of Russian culture right before the election, Yosef aroused widespread fear among the Russian population of what Shas would do if it won enough votes to enter a governing coalition. “I wasn’t going to vote this year but now my husband says we have to vote for [Lieberman], otherwise [Shas] will shut us down,” Haaretz quoted one Russian shop-owner as saying. “It’s true we don’t sell pork here, but I’m from Russia and that might be enough [to close us.]” Lieberman himself credited Yosef for his bump in support, saying that of all the forces working in his favor, “No doubt, the rabbi deserves first prize.”
Netanyahu was also damaged by the rising Russian tide against Shas. His Likud party had turned to religious parties such as Shas and Agudat Israel to build coalitions in the past, which has facilitated their attempts to ban pork, make selling leavened bread on Passover illegal, and perpetuate many policies that singularly serve the interests of the ultra-Orthodox community. Therefore, while many Russian voters cared about Netanyahu’s security position, Lieberman’s core platform promised both the security of their borders as well as their culture–meats, cheeses, and all. It is not surprising, then, that Lieberman’s gains in support coincided in a drop in support for Likud–which, according to the last published poll before the election (released the day before Yosef’s speech), was slated to win a slim lead over the Kadima party.
He also observes that Israel’s pork community is quite embattled:
Escalating tensions have led to clashes between Russian immigrants and their religious neighbors in a number of cities across the country. In August 2007, for example, a Russian-owned deli was attacked in the northern beach town of Netanya–an occurrence that had become so commonplace that is was a theme canonized in the 2005 Israeli film, The Schwartz Dynasty. A month later, a similar non-kosher shop in Tzfat was attacked, just 24 hours after the Jewish Day of Atonement. The owner of a pork processing factory in Haifa, Dadi Marom, complained to me that every Friday afternoon his weekly sausage and beer tasting is interrupted by ultra-Orthodox protests.
In the United States, of course, Jews are a small numerical minority and the observant and un-observant alike tend to appreciate the dangers of intolerance and the virtues of a state that doesn’t seek to enforce religious taboos.
64 Responses to “Avigdor Lieberman Boosted By Pro-Pork Backlash”
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February 20th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
It’s consistently weird to me that Israel has what are, so far as I can tell from my life here in Seattle, roving gangs of Jewish thugs, more or less indistinguishable from Iran’s, only instead of being an arm of the state, the state merely turns a blind eye to their vigilantism.
Seriously, this is a modern democratic state? I know that Israel is… special with respect to Judaism, but…
February 20th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Arguing that God doesn’t want us to eat bacon is like saying He doesn’t want us to breathe air. It’s so ridiculous that is must be false — but if it’s true, it’s a great reason to ignore everything this God fellow says.
February 20th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Arguing that God doesn’t want us to eat bacon is like saying He doesn’t want us to breathe air
or have hot gay sex . . .
February 20th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Oh, man, is that a beautiful chop in that photo.
You can tell by how it rests that it isn’t dried out, either.
Gaaaaaaaahhhhhhh….
February 20th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
So that was what Eric Cantor was bitching about?
February 20th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Well if this isn’t a fly in your chardonnay.
February 20th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
That does look quite tasty.
Any nation that doesn’t allow that is surely one that doesn’t deserve our monetary support.
February 20th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
It’s not odd or ironic–it’s almost a commonplace that outsider movements latch onto some aspect of the dominant culture’s identity and inflate its importance, as if to compensate for their outsider status. Lieberman’s followers are relative newcomers who don’t know Hebrew, don’t really even like the Middle East, and aren’t religious. But they can sure hate themselves an Arab! So they do.
February 20th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
There’s this place on Church by Market in San Francisco called Chow that had (maybe still does) the most delicious pork sandwiches (by which I mean so delicious you had no idea pork could be so good).
February 20th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Lieberman and his like are good evidence of a mind-set one finds all too much in Russia, too, where the only group more hated than the Jews are the Muslims, whether Arab, Caucasian, or central Asian. (Africans are also hated, but less so than Jews.)
February 20th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
“roving gangs of Jewish thugs, more or less indistinguishable from Iran’s, only instead of being an arm of the state, the state merely turns a blind eye to their vigilantism.”
They are more like the religious police in Saudi Arabia, who aren’t arms of the state, either. In Saudi Arabia’s case, the House of Saud needed the help of religious fanatics to take over the country. They rewarded the fanatics by allowing them to “unofficially” enforce religious doctrine. Israel’s case is quite different. The most committed Zionists have always been the secularists. The pious Jews tended to care a lot less about who ruled them, whether it was the Ottomans or the British. Things have surely changed, haven’t they? Or maybe they haven’t. The secularists are still the most committed Zionists, but where did the religious vigilantes come from? They are neither part of the original indigenous Zionists, nor are they part of the colonial newcomers. Anyone know how the ultra-orthodox philosophy ever came to Israel?
February 20th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
i keep thinking this image is of the animal collective ’strawberry jam’ album cover
February 20th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
What I don’t get is this, if you aren’t a Christian, why are you serving pork, anyway? I know a lot of Jewish people love their bacon, but can’t they can get a Christian butcher for that? You would think that the easiest job in world to get would that of a Christian butcher in Israel. And there are plenty of Palestinian Christians. How does the market not already work this out. It works out fine in India. Hindus hire Muslim butchers (keeps things Halal), why can’t Jews hire Christian butchers? There are no rules on Kosher pork, so what’s the problem? Is the hatred of Arabs really so pervasive?
February 21st, 2009 at 12:17 am
Re: And there are plenty of Palestinian Christians.
Yes there are, but most of them don’t (anymore) live in Palestine, they live in North or South America. The Christian population of Palestine has suffered both from Israeli expansionism and increasing Islamist sentiment among Palestinians, and the West Bank is now (if I recall correctly) only about 3% Christian.
Christian butchers in Israel cannot sell pork to either Jews or Muslims, so I would imagine their market would be rather small.
February 21st, 2009 at 12:20 am
In the past few weeks, I have learned the answer to a mystery which has been troubling me. I could not understand why Zionists, when challenged in their Hasbara immediately start in deriding my Jewishness, and even threaten to have me kicked out of the Jews!
I could not understand how this made any sense. Now I do. I know of at least one country where whether you are a Jew, and what kind of Jew, makes a huge difference in your life. A country where your religion is right on your identity papers. Israel! In Israel those threats “You’re not a Jew, you don’t do Judaism right” or “I can get you kicked out of the Jews” have meaning, and are a real threat. Israel is probably, at this point, the most anti-semitic country on earth.
Imagine what those threats would mean to a Russian Jew who has been cut off from Jewish ritual and Hebrew? Or ethnic or Sephardic Jews whose riyual and language are different. Lovely, lovely people, Zionists.
February 21st, 2009 at 12:21 am
As for the topic of the post, from 2 Maccabees 7:7-9….
7: So when the first was dead after this number, they brought the second to make him a mocking stock: and when they had pulled off the skin of his head with the hair, they asked him, Wilt thou eat pork, before thou be punished throughout every member of thy body?
8: But he answered in his own language, and said, No. Wherefore he also received the next torment in order, as the former did.
9: And when he was at the last gasp, he said, Thou like a fury takest us out of this present life, but the King of the world shall raise us up, who have died for his laws, unto everlasting life.
I rather think that the Maccabean martyrs were somewhat better Jews than Mr. Yglesias.
February 21st, 2009 at 12:30 am
“Christian butchers in Israel cannot sell pork to either Jews or Muslims, so I would imagine their market would be rather small.”
Can you tell me what Cristian rule would prevent that? The rules against Jews and Muslims buying it are obvious, and they still buy it. But Israel only has rules against Muslims, so what’s preventing Christians form doing it? Aside from laziness, of course.
February 21st, 2009 at 12:50 am
I think pigs are probably too smart and sensitive to be eaten in good conscience barring the usual desert island-type senarios. It’s probably worse than eating a dog or cat, although probably not as bad as eating a dolphin, elephant, homonid, or gray parrot.
Although Jewish law also prohibits eating mussels, abalone, shrimp, and the like, which doesn’t strike me as very sensible while ruling sheep and such to be kosher.
I wonder if Israeli politics ever has scandals of theocratic politicians getting caught eating pork — a sort of sordid, Ted Haggard type affair involving some Shas type getting caught eating porkchops from between the thighs of a gay hooker or the like.
Okay, that was a rather gross image. My apologies.
February 21st, 2009 at 12:52 am
Hector, can you please stop referencing the Bible without telling us which Bible you’re referencing? I just pulled out a Bible at random, and Maccabees wasn’t even in it. Let’s wait though… maybe I have another Bible with it…. Nope, I don’t. But no Catholic has ever given me their Bible, and it appears that the text in question only appears in Catholic Bibles. And you claim not to be a Catholic. It’s bad enough that you insist on proposing questionable Christian Doctrine as The Law, but you can’t even stick to Christian Doctrine when doing it. After all, my Bible is God’s word, isn’t it? In fact, all of my Bibles are God’s word, regardless of when they disagree. But your Bible is obviously bullshit because it isn’t one of my Bibles. Isn’t that the Christan Way? Kill everyone who disagrees with you? Why haven’t you killed me yet for owning a Bible that doesn’t even include your reference? And why don’t you curse God for producing so many different texts?
February 21st, 2009 at 12:52 am
Ah, religion. Just think: a group of people’s preference for one kind of cooked animal over another may have just decided the fate of the world.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:13 am
Fostert,
Don’t be dumb. Second Maccabees is accepted as inspired scripture by the Catholics, Orthodox and Oriental Christians, and accepted as semi-inspired by Anglicans*, of which I am one. In any case, if you’d read my post I was citing Second Maccabees as a historical example of Jewish courage, not using it to set forth a doctrine. I’m not aware that anyone- Jew, Protestant, or whatever- denies that Second Maccabees is reasonably valid as history.
*i.e. “to be read for example of life and instruction of manners, but not to establish any doctrine.”
February 21st, 2009 at 1:13 am
“It’s probably worse than eating a dog or cat”
Well cats taste like shit, and that goes for house cats and mountain lions (had both). In general, carnivores produce bad meat. As for dogs, they taste pretty good. The Vietnamese prefer German Shepherds, but I still like bovine meat (beef). Their treatment of dogs in Vietnam is exactly the same as our treatment of pigs, and pigs are smarter. So what moral high ground do we hold there? Pigs are obviously the superior beings, so why do dogs get the superior treatment? If we can slaughter pigs, why are dogs any different? The only exceptions I see are that pigs are smarter and don’t taste as good. Should our basis be that the animals we eat taste bad and be really smart? I don’t really get that. I was raised to know that nobody should ever eat dog. Now I know different. I still like the taste of pigs, but why should I not like the taste of dog? Trust me, I’m not going to eat your pet, but why should I avoid eating a dog? I eat pigs, after all.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:14 am
They are neither part of the original indigenous Zionists, nor are they part of the colonial newcomers. Anyone know how the ultra-orthodox philosophy ever came to Israel?
Well, Shas pretty much represents the religious North African and Middle Eastern communities that were (and still are) looked down upon as backward ‘orientals’ by the Ashkenazi ruling class, both religious and secular. (The exodus from Morocco dates from the early 60s.) And your average Shas voter thinks that Russians are neither proper Jews, nor proper Middle Easterners, perhaps because a lot of North African Jews have long-standing yeshiva links to Eastern Europe.
There’s a weird bit of projection, though, on the part of more deranged bloggers who talk about the supposed Islamification of Western Europe by a small number of immigrants. It’s Israel that’s small enough for large-scale immigration from particular regions to have a profound social and political impact. Just as the influx from North Africa and the wider Middle East eventually brought Shas into political prominence, so the million or so pork-eating Jews from the former USSR (about 20% of the Israeli population) now have their political figurehead.
Romantic Zionism’s dead and gone / It’s with Ben Gurion in the grave.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:16 am
I rather think that the Maccabean martyrs were somewhat better Jews than Mr. Yglesias.
I rather think that Michael Palin was a better Christian soldier than you, Sir Hector the Arse.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:19 am
Pseudonymous,
It’s interesting, I write a fairly detailed exposition of the Anglican position on the Deuterocanonical books, and you respond with some feeble scatology. Of course, no one ever accused hipsters of being particularly intelligent or reflective people.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:29 am
“Don’t be dumb.”
I’m not being dumb. I’m simply acknowledging a simple concept: the Bibles are not consistent, yet all of them are God’s word. Every single one of them. God must either have multiple personalities or is simply schizophrantic. Either way, I want nothing to do with Him, He’s crazy. He lacks the consistency you’d expect from a random homeless person living under your local underpass. If God could come up with some kind of consistent belief, I might believe in Him. And let’s make this clear, I’m only talking about the inconsistencies within Christian Belief. Those are enough to drive anyone crazy. And we are supposed to take this religion seriously? Give me a break, please.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:30 am
It’s interesting, Hector. You think you’re God’s gift to this blog, when in fact, you’re just a fucking weirdo who seems to think it’s still the 11th century, except seasoned with a dash of the 16th. And I’d bet good money that Rowan Williams would think you a fucking wierdo, too.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:56 am
“Well, Shas pretty much represents the religious North African and Middle Eastern communities”
Fair enough, the Shas do in fact represent that influence. But they are a pretty damn small faction of modern Israel, aren’t they? So what? Shas is now questioning whether they should go with Likud or Kadima, both of which endorse ethnic cleansing, but Likud is is the only party endorsing Apartheid as a reasonable alternative. The others endorse ethnic cleansing. I’m not really sure how I’d chose is such a situation. I’d choose for human rights, but there is no such party in Israel. At this point, I can no longer support Israel at all. I’ll still support the Labor Party in Israel, but Israelis want a different path. But the path Israelis want is a path to destruction. I cannot support them on that. But if they want to go there, I won’t stop them. Their destruction is their choice, not mine. Quite frankly, I don’t give a shit. They never gave a shit about me, and I’ll no longer give shit about them.
February 21st, 2009 at 2:07 am
“It’s so ridiculous that is must be false”
“or have hot gay sex . . .”
“Although Jewish law also prohibits eating mussels, abalone, shrimp, and the like, which doesn’t strike me as very sensible while ruling sheep and such to be kosher.”
The kosher laws became ritualized, but they probably started out as proscriptions for health reasons. Pork can be dangerous meat, if it’s not cooked properly, and shell fish go bad pretty quickly without ice or refrigeration. Kosher laws also proscribe the eating of meat from sick animals, or the eating of blood (again, probably because of the goal to prevent disease). Gay sex can be dangerous too, since anuses can easily rupture during intercourse and can lead to bacterial infections, anal warts, etc. (maybe there was even a precursor to AIDS back then?).
As for the idea of “Jewish thugs” enforcing these rules, that’s an exaggeration. It’s a relative handful of loudmouths, not a group of state-sanctioned enforcers caning people on the street. These attempts to pretend that “the Jews are just as X as the Saudis” are merely thinly disguised expressions of bigotry.
As for why Palestinian butchers don’t sell pork, it’s probably because they’d be killed by radical Muslims.
February 21st, 2009 at 2:14 am
Come on, pseudonymous. Yglesias without nutcase commenters would be like Yglesias without typos. You don’t have a proper Yglesias thread until Hector has decried the evils of liberal cosmopolitan hipsterism (i.e., the bill of rights), Richard Steven Hack has called for a massacre against Zionists and talked about how stupid we chimpanzees are for not grasping the necessity of this, and Steve Sailer has posted some copypasta about Obama’s hatred of his grandma and plans to confiscate the wealth of the white race and give it to blacks, Ayers, and Rezko.
February 21st, 2009 at 2:26 am
“Romantic Zionism’s dead and gone”
Looking at the history of Zionism, I’m not sure what it was. But modern Zionism does exist. It exists in a form of anti-Palestinian genocide. The definition of what it means to be Israeli is to hate Arabs. Nothing more, and nothing less. Israelis can easily accept Jews that eat pork, but they can’t accept Arabs that will never eat it. Israelis will easily accept anyone who goes against their own thoughts, but they will not accept people who accept those same thoughts. Israeli thought is simply racism against Arabs. If those Arabs accepted Judaism, the Israelis would still discriminate against them. This is pure racism. If they weren’t Jews, we’d call them on it. But we are racists for saying that Jews should be allowed to practice racism. We shouldn’t do such things, so why should Jews be allowed to do it? I’m sorry, I was willing to give them a pass on their “Chosen people” crap, but no longer. But I’d say this to the Israelis: God doesn’t exist, and He surely didn’t choose you. And when you say that you are better than me, then fuck you. I’ve had plenty enough of trying to help you. Help yourselves, motherfuckers. I’ll help myself, and you can help yourselves. You no longer need my help. And you will no longer get it from me.
February 21st, 2009 at 2:33 am
“It exists in a form of anti-Palestinian genocide.”
Doesn’t that sound stupid even to you? There are ten times as many Palestinians in Israel/Palestine today as there were when Israel was founded. In what sort of genocide do you end up with a ten-fold increase in population?
“The definition of what it means to be Israeli is to hate Arabs.”
Really? That’s the common thread binding all Israelis (excepting, I assume, Israeli Arabs)?
February 21st, 2009 at 2:57 am
“Really? That’s the common thread binding all Israelis (excepting, I assume, Israeli Arabs)?”
Yes.
“It exists in a form of anti-Palestinian genocide.”
Doesn’t that sound stupid even to you?
No. Explain to me why there are so many Palestinian refugees if the Israelis weren’t trying to kill them. You obviously believe the theory that these people simply chose to leave their homes. So give me a theory about why they chose to do that. My theory is that they had guns pointed to their heads. Your theory is that magic unicorns took them to a better place. So let’s hear your theory about how 750,000 people left Palestine during the late 1940s by following magic unicorns. My theory is is that Jewish soldiers pointed guns at them to make them leave. That’s ethnic cleansing, pure and simple. What’s your theory about them leaving? Is it magic unicorns?
February 21st, 2009 at 3:05 am
Fostert,
You appear to be too full of hate to be rational. It’s as if the definition of Fostert is “hates Israel”. Maybe you should rent Exodus over the weekend as a corrective.
Also, look up the definition of the word “genocide”, so you stop misusing it.
February 21st, 2009 at 3:42 am
“My theory is that they had guns pointed to their heads”
I should say this, nobody should ever give in to people who point guns to their heads. It’s only you life, after all. Why would you care about that? I’ve never given a flying fuck about my life and I’m still alive. Amazingly, my liver hasn’t strangled me yet. Even more amazingly, my liver is in perfect health. Maybe that’s why it hasn’t strangled me yet. And that’s exactly why I get myself into situations where people point guns to my head. Politicians have much more to lose than any drug dealer. Last time in Thailand, I learned very clearly what happens when you cross the wrong people. The folks in America are less extreme in their practices, but I get the message. I know what I can say, and what I can not say. But I will say this: someone puts a gun in my face and I ask them what their boss wants. I don’t flinch on crap like that, I’ve seen that crap from too many people to even worry about it. I can walk away from someone pointing that gun, but not many can do that.
But when things get weird, I’ve said the same thing to people who point guns at my head: “Shoot me”. They never have. I can’t say I recommend that approach, but it’s worked for me. Turns out, most people don’t have the guts to do it. But that’s a risk most people can’t take.
February 21st, 2009 at 4:06 am
“You appear to be too full of hate to be rational.”
No, I’ve experienced too much of reality to take Israel seriously. The people of Israel have experienced minimal hardship. Nothing like the people of Cambodia. Nothing like the people of Vietnam. Nothing like the people of Laos. All of those people can forgive and move on. The Israelis expect us to forgive them for every crime they commit. I cannot do that. They need to accept that the bad things that were done to them do not excuse them from doing bad things to other people. Until they do that, they are just as bad as the bad people who do things to them. If they cannot forgive, they are nothing. When they can forgive like the people of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, they will be people worthy of saving and praise. But they cannot and will not do that. So they are simply ungracious people worthy of no money or respect. I am fully gracious and respectful to those who have been abused, so long as they do not abuse other people. The people of Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam have earned that respect. When the Israelis choose to earn my respect, I will give it to them. Until then, they earn my disdain. It’s their choice and other cultures have already made the right choice. When Israel does it, they’ll get exactly the same respect. But Israel chooses to be assholes. And I will treat them as such.
February 21st, 2009 at 4:17 am
But when things get weird, I’ve said the same thing to people who point guns at my head: “Shoot me”. They never have. I can’t say I recommend that approach
Yeah, don’t take that advice. The number one thing people say right before they get shot is “shoot me”. The police wind up talking to some moron who tells them “He told me to shoot him!”.
There is a time and a place for everything, and I’ve not complied with someone holding a gun to my head but I had a damn good idea who I was dealing with, if you didn’t know that you got really lucky.
I’ve also wound up stripped naked by someone I was sure didn’t have the stones to kill me but was pretty positive that he was so bullshit scared and gacked out of his mind that he was going to pull the trigger on accident if I even moved fast.
February 21st, 2009 at 4:49 am
Speaking of nutcase commenters, Julian, have you noticed that some crazy person is going around and linking a bunch of goatse-style shock images in comments here and there, with the link being something like “Julian Elson had a great post on this”?
It happened on Ezra’s blog and on Donkeylicious — both were quickly deleted.
February 21st, 2009 at 5:28 am
“I’ve not complied with someone holding a gun to my head but I had a damn good idea who I was dealing with, if you didn’t know that you got really lucky”
Last time that happened, I knew damn well who ordered it, and I was really damn polite to her the next morning when I ran into her. Except that it happened twice that night, the second guy was just a random freak. I didn’t know that at the time, but it still worked. Fortunately, he was just a joker who wouldn’t pull the trigger anyway. When you’re dealing with a random joker, it’s just dumb luck at that point, but it still usually works. But the stakes are as high as can be. You don’t want that gamble, but you don’t really have a choice, do you? There’s no reason to assume he won’t kill you when you give him the money, is there? So why cooperate at that point? I didn’t, and he didn’t kill me. He just let me go, but it turns out I had help. So I won that battle. And once again, I live to see another one. I won that battle on a simple concept: you can take my money out of my dead hands, but you’ll face the justice of Karma. I offered all the money I had, but he couldn’t accept it. That would be bad Karma, so he realized he couldn’t rob me. In the end, he allowed me to give him some money, and he walked away. And I kept what I needed to pay the hotel. It was the weirdest robbery I’ve ever experienced. Later that night, I’d experience the most intense problem I’ve ever faced. I was lost, so I asked someone for help. Bad move. Whenever you are lost, you need to be very careful about who you should ask for help. I wasn’t and had an AK-47 pointed at my forehead. And that’s when things were going well, it went downhill from there. But things worked out okay, despite my thumbs being dislocated. And a bruise that corresponds to the shape of an an AK-47 barrel on my forehead. The only thing that saved me was a call from the woman who had already ordered me to be mugged. He got that call and let me go. Apparently, I’d learned my lesson. My wai (greeting) to that women was very deep the next morning. And I got the hell out of there.
February 21st, 2009 at 5:46 am
Julian Elson: Yglesias without nutcase commenters would be like Yglesias without typos.”
And your contribution has been what besides snide remarks?
Anybody can be an asshole. You just proved that.
Fostert: I got mugged once. Guy held a knife at my throat. So I gave him the $20 or so I had in the wallet, since I saw no reason to get slashed for that paltry sum. But he’s lucky I wasn’t armed, because I would have followed him down the street away from my apartment and shot him in the back of the head – as long as there were no obvious witnesses around. Otherwise I would have just robbed HIS ass.
Ever see the movie, “Deal of the Century” with Chevy Chase playing an arms dealer in South America? He goes out to his car after an arms demo with a, I think it was an H&K 81, in a box. Guy jumps down out of a tree and tries to rob him. Chevy hands over a little money. The guy demands more. Chevy says he doesn’t have it. The guy asks, “What’s the box?” Chevy says quickly, “Nothing of value.” The guy tells him to open it.
So Chevy does.
Pulls out the HK, points it at this moron who’s hold a cheap Italian .25 semiauto, I think it was. Guy turns white, apologizes, hands back the money, immediately starts backing off.
Chevy says, “Wait a minute”. Give me your money.”
Guy says, “But your gun is bigger than mine…”
Chevy: “Give me your money.”
Guy hands over the cash, wanders off cussing under his breath.
Voiceover from Chevy saying how crappy the guy’s little gun is.
Another great scene is where Gregory Hines as a born-again Christian takes a flame thrower to a hothead Latino’s car. “Hey, Pedro! Nice flame job you got there. Lemme give you a little touch-up! [WHOOOOOSSSSH!] Just a little touch-up! [WHOOOOOSSSH!]
Funny, black comedy movie about the military-industrial complex. If you’ve never seen it, check it out.
February 21st, 2009 at 6:00 am
“Fostert: I got mugged once.”
Only once? You need to live a little. Granted, I’ve only been mugged seven times in four countries, so maybe I don’t so much about it. But it’s a rush. If you live through it like me, all you have to lose is the money in your hand. And sometimes you can meet the person who made sure you were mugged. Say hello to her when you meet her again. And wai properly.
February 21st, 2009 at 6:48 am
Fred Says:
February 21st, 2009 at 2:07:
The kosher laws became ritualized, but they probably started out as proscriptions for health reasons.
Not so. A more likely origin is purely anthropological. Nature/Culture and so on. At the same time a nice diagnostic for endogamy. Perhaps a bit like the orthodox Vedic brahmin who wants his son to have nothing to do with meat-eaters.
February 21st, 2009 at 7:57 am
Can we really stop pretending Israel is a Democracy now?
You have to have a jewish marriage, or it’s not valid.
They have gangs of thugs that the government ignores that attack people who are ideologically different.
They control vast amounts of territory relative to their proper size, and do not permit citizenship rights to those within that territory. They have done this for 40 years.
Parties can win pluralities and be completely ignored.
None of this does a Democracy make.
February 21st, 2009 at 7:57 am
Matt should have said:
In the United States, BECAUSE Jews are a small numerical minority, the observant and nonobservant alike tend to appreciate the dangers of intolerance and the virtues of a state that doesn’t seek to enforce religious taboos.
Except for the taboos on public debate about the American-Israeli “special” relationship.
February 21st, 2009 at 8:16 am
“Not so. A more likely origin is purely anthropological”
The origin of Kosher/Halal rules is very simple in Third World countries. If you follow them, you live comfortably. If you don’t, you’ll get really sick. These rules are very old and probably come from India. Regardless, they predate the Hebrew Bible by a long shot. Given that modern sanitation was not prevelant during the times when the old religious texts were written, it’s no surprise they had such rules. I’ve been to India, and I know damn well that it’s much safer to eat in Muslim restaurants. They follow Halal rules. If we did it, our restaurants would be safer as well. Our modern rules of sanitation really aren’t much better. But people are smart enough to be deluded. They think a fancy restaurant might be superior. But it’s much different in Southeast Asia. In truth, that random woman cooking chicken on the streets of Bangkok probably has the safer food. She killed those chickens that morning, and they have never seen a refrigerator. They are fresh and safe (with some flies, but that’s okay). You go to a hotel nearby, and those chickens are not fresh and they have been put into a refrigerator by people who don’t understand the concept. And you think that improperly refrigerated meat is safer than the fresh version? Think again. That’s why you eat on the street in Asia. The only reason that random woman on the street isn’t cooking Halal/ Kosher food is because it hasn’t been blessed by a Rabbi or Imam. Otherwise, it meets every standard of either religion. But she prayed on it herself, shouldn’t that be good enough?
February 21st, 2009 at 8:29 am
Sounds like John McCain would have had a great career in Israel.
February 21st, 2009 at 8:50 am
fostert-
For what it’s worth, that explanation is basically not accepted by any historians or anthropologists anymore. The diversity of food laws across areas where similar health problems could arise, combined with the fact that basically all food is dangerous, have driven the historical and anthropological concensus that explaining various food laws requires far more than some just-so stories about health in the ancient world. Generally, as far as I know, “anthropological” explanations like Mary Douglas’ in Purity and Danger – simplifying, that food laws order the natural world according to divine plan – are far better accepted in the academy.
February 21st, 2009 at 9:53 am
Re soullite
Mr. soullite makes a number of misstatements and misrepresentations.
1. It is true that there is no civil marriage in Israel. However, civil marriages made in Cyprus are recognized in Israel. Further, any legal marriage in the United States is recognized in Israel. Further, marriages between Christians or between Muslims which are presided over by priest/ministers or Imans are recognized in Israel.
2. Mr. soullite is apparently referring to the recent election in Israel where the party who won the most seats, Kadima, was not tasked by the president to form a government. However, that party is hardly being ignored as Bibi is doing everything except standing on his head to entice them into his government. As Jeffery Goldberg says, the trouble in Israel is that they have too much democracy.
3. Considering what goes on in Muslim countries, one has to laugh at Mr. soullites’ complaint that there are gangs running wild in Israel trampling on the rights of the majority. How about honor killings in Arab countries (we just experienced such an event in Buffalo, NY.).
February 21st, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Fair enough, the Shas do in fact represent that influence. But they are a pretty damn small faction of modern Israel, aren’t they?
Larger than you seem to think: in terms of an ethnic constituency, it’s about the same size as the Israelis who came from the former USSR.
My point about ‘romantic Zionism’ though, was really thinking aloud about the volatile nature of Israeli cultural identity. Americans are familiar and comfortable with Israeli leaders who are not particularly religious, but will draw the line at a bacon sandwich. That may be giving way to something else: not, as once thought, to a new generation of secular leaders like Livni, but instead to religious and ultranationalist leaders.
As for SLC, ‘Arabs do it too’ is not really responsive, unless you’re eagerly awaiting an Israeli society that sends women to the back of the bus. Not that you give a shit about Israel in any case: you just like the idea of killing lots of Arabs.
February 21st, 2009 at 2:27 pm
The rules about food or dress and the particular form of rituals are not logical. Their purpose is to bind the group together and to offer contrast with other groups.
All religions have them for the same reason and they are enforced by the religious authorities to maintain the contrast.
February 21st, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Neil — I have a tentative guess about what that’s about. Was the link to some file on EncyclopediaDramatica called Pain1.jpg or the like? I think I wrote a comment here in response to that guy saying something about this being a new low for the Yglesias comment sections or something like that. I looked for the post — it was pretty recent — but I can’t remember what the overall thread was about.
Richard Steven Hack — yes, good point. Maybe my being a snide asshole is another integral aspect to Yglesias threads.
February 21st, 2009 at 8:18 pm
I really don’t care to distinguish between religious and secular leaders in Israel. The whole lot are “Zionists”, which, however it may have started out, has turned into a nation of people who want to abuse other peoples and steal everything that isn’t nailed down in their region (and sometimes outside their region – Israel organized crime is international as much as Italian and Corsican organized crime is).
ALL their leaders are corrupt, power hungry, brutal bastards. The number of such leaders who have been accused of bribery, rape, and other venal crimes clearly demonstrates that.
Tzipi Livni’s father was a terrorist.
The country has started seven wars in the last twenty years.
It’s time for Israel to be “renovated” by declaring it a rogue, illegal, terrorist state, dissolving that state, and creating a new one that more or less represents the entire population, including the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews.
If the US can invade Afghanistan and Iraq, and threaten both Iran and Pakistan with bombing and invasion, I see no reason why the international community can’t dissolve Israel as an illegal state and put an end to its depredations.
February 21st, 2009 at 8:28 pm
fostert,
They are neither part of the original indigenous Zionists, nor are they part of the colonial newcomers. Anyone know how the ultra-orthodox philosophy ever came to Israel?
They were always there. There has always been a religious presence in Palestine/Israel. Don’t conflate Zionism with religion. I’m sure you’ve heard of the Neturei Karta – the Ultra Orthodox Jews who live in Israel but were rabidly anti-Zionist to the point of being on the PLO’s payroll. After Hamas won the election, they joined them as well. They want nothing more than the complete destruction of the State of Israel; to be replaced by a Palestinian one. They don’t oppose the State of Israel on humanistic grounds – but on religious ones. According to UO tradition, a Jewish dominated government in Israel must be created by God with the arrival of the Messiah, and must follow and enforce the strict Jewish rituals and laws. I guarantee Neturai Karta has no problems with bans on pork.
The NK is an extreme example, but there have always been UO Jews in Palestine, Ashkenazic and Sephardic. They tend to be Anti-Zionist as well. The Ashkenazis are divided into the Agudah and the Edah. The Agudah accepts the existence of the state, but is not Zionist and cares not a whit about Gaza and the West Bank. Their representation in Knesset (the UTJ) exists to fund their institutions and welfare and provides a forum where they can hope to expand Halakha. The Edah rejects the state, and its members don’t vote. Shas is a relatively new party based on mostly ethnic grounds, but headed by Rabbis. They’re more Zionist than UTJ, but when they seek to ban pork, it’s not out of Zionism.
There are religious Zionists obviously, and many of them came with the Zionists. The religious Zionists have historically tried to make Halakha an important part of daily life in Israel and succeeded to varying degrees. Since around Oslo, though, they’ve neglected that part and become more of an advocacy party for the settler movement.
In the vast majority of cases though, religious intolerance and Zionism aren’t even correlated.
February 21st, 2009 at 8:37 pm
What I don’t get is this, if you aren’t a Christian, why are you serving pork, anyway? I know a lot of Jewish people love their bacon, but can’t they can get a Christian butcher for that? You would think that the easiest job in world to get would that of a Christian butcher in Israel. And there are plenty of Palestinian Christians. How does the market not already work this out. It works out fine in India. Hindus hire Muslim butchers (keeps things Halal), why can’t Jews hire Christian butchers? There are no rules on Kosher pork, so what’s the problem? Is the hatred of Arabs really so pervasive?
Not everything the Jews do is racist. Back when Israel was founded, an important goal (among both Zionist and not so Zionist Jews) was that it be a Jewish state. This means a Jewish culture. This means no pork, no driving on Yom Kippur, and no sports games and public transport on the Sabbath. I suppose they could get Arabs to do these things for them, but they don’t want it in the Jewish state. Currently, the momentum is pushing against these things. It wasn’t too long ago that there couldn’t be pork at all.
And for religious Jews (even rabidly anti-Zionist ones), having pork on the Holy Land is a big no-no.
February 21st, 2009 at 8:48 pm
A country where your religion is right on your identity papers. Israel! In Israel those threats “You’re not a Jew, you don’t do Judaism right” or “I can get you kicked out of the Jews” have meaning, and are a real threat. Israel is probably, at this point, the most anti-semitic country on earth.
Imagine what those threats would mean to a Russian Jew who has been cut off from Jewish ritual and Hebrew? Or ethnic or Sephardic Jews whose riyual and language are different. Lovely, lovely people, Zionists.
What are you talking about?
You think Zionists go around to Spehardic synagogues and threaten them to change their rituals and customs to conform to Lithuanian Ashkenazic standards? Which Zionists? The secular Zionists who wouldn’t know tefillin from a Mezuzah? The religious ones who don’t care about the Zionist/Ashkenazic divide? You know one of the cofounders of Shas is the head of the Ashkenazi religious party? What Zionists have threatened to cut off sephardic or russian israelis from the Jewish community? What Zionists would even have that authority? Or perhaps, all Israelis are Zionists?
Seriously, does anyone here actually know what Zionism is, at all? Anyone read any Herzl? Any Kook? Or is Zionism just the philosophy that you people ascribe to anything that happens in Israel you don’t like? Religious intolerance – Zionism! Racism – Zionism! Bad weather – Zionism! Rocket attacks – Zionism!
February 22nd, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Yeah, that’s the one, Julian. Just wanted to make sure you knew.
February 22nd, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Yes – there are gangs of extreme religulous thugs, but – they do not rove too much. Stay out of their hoods, and your car will most likely not be stoned on the sabbath.
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