Jan 18th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
What We Could Do for Palestinians
Amjad Atallah, director of the Middle East Task Force at New America and someone who deserves to be more prominent, has a very interesting BloggingHeads appearance alongside David Frum focused on the Gaza situation. In this clip, he offers a concrete suggestion of a helpful gesture the United States could make to show to the world that irrespective of our broader strategic orientation we do care about the suffering of Palestinian civilians:
Much more good stuff if you watch the whole episode.
57 Responses to “What We Could Do for Palestinians”
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January 18th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Two more Washington jerkoffs who think thew Arab masses are morons. Do Atallah and Frum honestly think this will fool anyone? Do they honestly think that by arming, supporting and cheering on our 51st state as it bombs the crap out of Gaza on one end, and then patching up the body parts that spray out on the other end, we will convince Arabs how much compassion and empathy we have for the plight of the poor Palestinians? Our Congress passed a Saddam-like resolution of support for Israel on a unanimous voice vote!
Hey, I’ve got an idea! Why don’t we set up a meat factory on the Egyptian border to turn the carcasses of dead Gazans into smoked sausages that we can then send for free to the needy Arab poor throughout the Middle East. Let’s call them “empathy sausages”, and put them in boxes labeled, “With love and compassion, from America”. That will surely prove how much we really, really care about Arabs.
January 18th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
I think Dan Kervick has filled the needed sarcasm quotient for this comment thread, and the second good (evil?) laugh of the day.
Although it seems a good idea, I actually think the problem U.S. leaders would have with it would be that it makes us look like we care about Palestinians, and I’m not at all making a joke when I say that I don’t think that’s the image our foreign policy establishment wants at all to convey.
January 18th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
It’s not a bad idea – it would do a lot to help the people who are suffering at the moment. However, by continuing to pump arms and dollars into Israel, we are indirectly causing the injuries on the front end. If I was a Gazan, I’d take the emergency care, and continue to hate the US for doing nothing to prevent the injuries in the first place.
January 18th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Dan, I get it, but I’d take such a measure. Right now, if your arm is just blow off but you’ve hitched a belt around it and stopped the bleeding you can’t get help at a hospital. If you are in a lethal enough condition to get into a hospital there is no anesthesia. It’s completely medieval medicine going on.
I don’t think we would deserve props for it, but it would be incredibly important at this moment.
January 18th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Strikes me as a very good idea.
That’s all I’m saying on this post.
January 18th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
I’m sure that Mr. Don Williams will be along to pile on Israel and he will be in a surly mood as his Eagles are getting the shit kicked out of them.
January 18th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Wow, SLC really is evil — he’s kicking a man for his football team when he’s down!
January 18th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
If I were president I would allow the US Marines to accept an invitation from Palestinians to move forces into the sovereign Palestinian territory of the West Bank and Gaza.
In the West Bank I would open up the exclusive (Israeli only) road system, and kick the IDF and its check points out. After this I would expect most of the 400,000 settlers to become so uncomfortable living with the Palestinians (the idea of the roads is never to have to see one of the 5,000,000) that most would move out voluntarily — in any case most only feel comfortable now in an exclusively Jewish run state even in Israel proper.
The more militant the settlers, the more uncomfortable they should be living in a Palestinian run Palestinian state.
As some or most settlers moved out (how hard was it to move in?) even more would feel compelled to go. Nobody would have to drag them from their former homes. Nobody would have to harm a hair on their heads — I don’t think the most militant Palestinians would under these conditions.
Maybe some settlers could keep their homes if they made a deal — as long as Palestinians had complete control and absolute control. What might not be too much money to first-world Israelis might seem a godsend to third-world Palestinians. Maybe some of both could work something out.
Meantime, no IDF soldier would dare take a potshot at the American military.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Drew, there is a picture from the first Israeli invasion of Lebanon that I’ve never forgotten. It’s a Marine sergeant who was there as part of the expeditionary force and there was a row of Merkeva’s trying to blast into a refugee camp in Lebanon. He’s pointing a .45 at the lead Merkeva.
Obviously the .45 wasn’t a danger to them but they packed up and left. This is why the world holds us responsible for Israel’s bullshit.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Re Denis Drew
In Mr. Drews’ fantasy world, will the US military also be required to prevent terrorist attack against Israel?
January 18th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Your fantasy world is probably about to be a reality, SLC. The “serious” folk in the foreign policy world seem to be gravitating around a NATO force in the West Bank and Gaza. That’s seems far less than ideal to me and a perhaps a recipe for disaster, but it’s not something Israel can refuse.
NATO also takes it’s role in the world, really, really, seriously and if you want to see some more “serious” folk get their serious on let one of your favorite, uber-zionist clowns start talking shit about it and making a big show.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Well maybe Mr. Don Williams won’t be so surly after all. His Eagles are staging a comeback.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Actually, a successful NATO move into there would probably require one of your asshats to be in office and sell wolf tickets about how it would attack.
If they actually followed up on it, it would be the end of all this sorry mess one way or another.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Re: SLC
In the real world what do 400,000 annexing, land expropriating settlers and all the repression and humiliation that protects their annexations do to prevent terrorist attacks?
Or isn’t this whole mess because it is the other way around?
January 18th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
“…he offers a concrete suggestion of a helpful gesture the United States could make to show to the world that irrespective of our broader strategic orientation we do care about the suffering of Palestinian civilians”
We’re Israel’s bitch when it comes to anything to do with the M.E. The Arabs know it and aren’t going to be fooled by some idiotic token gesture.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Re Ed Marshall
Gee, Mr. Marshall agrees with Avigdor Lieberman who also advocates NATO troop in the Gaza Strip. I guess great minds run together, not.
Of course, NATO is doing such a wonderful job in Afghanistan, I’m sure we can look forward to more of the same in Gaza.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Re Denis Drew
I wonder what the reaction would be in the US if the residents of Gaza were as negative about the presence of the US military as the Iraqis are. US soldiers and marines being killed by homicide bombers and roadside bombs would not help the Palestinian cause.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
That’s really not my proposal at all. It’s in all likelihood what’s going to happen. My crystal ball is foggy after that, things could go a number of ways but if the enemy isn’t obvioulsy the Palestinians, tectonic shifts in policy would emerge.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Re Ed Marshall
Does Mr. Marshall imagine that Israel is going to employ homicide bombers? If so, he’s been smoking a lot of lefty luckies lately.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
SLC,
How about answering my question:
In the real world what do 400,000 annexing, land expropriating settlers and all the repression and humiliation that protects their annexations do to prevent terrorist attacks?
January 18th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Well, no, but I’ve read NATO contingency plans from around 2003 that have chapters worrying about about false flag attacks from the Israelis.
You really aren’t as smart as you think you are from reading Freidman columns, Dr. Watch what is coming.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Re Denis Drew
Israel withdrew entirely from the Gaza Strip and was rewarded with Qassems falling an Sderot. As for the settlers on the West Bank, settlements today, settlements tomorrow, settlements to the far horizon.
Re Ed Marshall
If NATO is wasting their time and energies worrying about Israeli false flag attacks, it’s no wonder they are losing in Afghanistan.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Re Don Williams
Expect the blogs’ resident Bolshevik to be in a snarly mood. Final score, Cardinals 32, Eagles 25!
January 18th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
NATO? Israel? WTF? Anyone have links on this?
January 18th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
SLC,
As for the settlers on the West Bank, settlements today, settlements tomorrow, settlements to the far horizon.
What do you think of the morality of “settling” on a land that is the most densely settled land in the world already?
Settled with a factory and farming (and main roading and high schooling and shopping malling) population 1000 times denser than that of the nomadic plains Indians that American settlers faced in 1850: 1000 per square mile v. 1 per square mile.
My candidate for the Anti-Christ’s (Hitler’s) version of “lebensraum” at least looked for some proportionate benefit for the cost of his predatory nation taking on the whole world: badly needed farm land, iron and fossil fuel resources. Israel’s version of “living space” is literally that: someplace to prop up housing developments — like they were all out of land in Israel.
Israel takes on the whole world and brings down hell on the other 50 states (trading skyscrapers for settlements) for the sake of some totally unneeded suburban real estate.
But, what of the morality of moving in on another’s land? Let me take one argument away in advance. If you think it is because gave it to you, you are admitting that in secular terms you do not have a moral leg to stand on.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
“NATO? Israel? WTF? Anyone have links on this?”
There’s no links because it’s not going to happen. NATO countries are already itching to get out of their black hole mission in Afghanistan.
Interesting as well that the Pal advocates here ignore Hamas’s position opposing any foreign troops in Gaza.
What’s going to happen in the near future is fairly unexciting. Hamas rocket fire will decline as the run down their stores (Israel is still blocking resupply from the southern part of the strip). If a Hamas rocket by some chance kills an Israel, Israel will respond with more air strikes. Eventually, Israel will win this war of attrition against Hamas rocketeers, just as it won its war of attrition against West Bank suicide bombers.
A better solution, in any event, to the Israeli Palestinian conflict is to offer residency to Palestinians in Europe/Eurabia. The Netherlands is almost a Muslim country at this point, and Pals would feel at home there.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Fred, no offence, but you are an ignorant fuck. I’ll lock your prediction down and when it fails I hope you ask yourself why you felt confident spewing this bullshit. Do you know anything outside the WSJ editorial page? Do you know anything at all about any of this? Where did you learn that the Netherlands is almost a Muslim country? If it ever dawns on you how fucked up and hallucinatory this is what would you even think?
January 18th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
*sound of Fred googling around trying to figure out how the hell The Netherlands is about to fall under the sword of Islam*
January 18th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Sure, don’cha know that the Muslims are taking over Europe?
And the Hispanics are taking over America?
Why, in a few years, New Zealand’s going to be the only white country left on Earth.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Fred,
You make one of my brothers’ tongue in cheek suggestions sound almost realistic: give the Palestinians the burned out areas of the Bronx [our town of origin] as former Jewish land.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
This represents about 6% of the population. Clearly the West has now fallen under the cruel scimitar of Islam.
January 18th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
Denis Drew, talking about the West Bank, writes What do you think of the morality of “settling” on a land that is the most densely settled land in the world already?
Most of the pro-Hamas people on in Yglesias’ comments section have been saying that Gaza is the densest place in the world. Now, it’s the West Bank? Not that this is the most important issue in the world — I’m sure both places are reasonably dense even if they aren’t the densest in the world — but why are you so quick to just make stuff up?
January 18th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Hispanics make up 15% of the American population… and growing all the time. I think America should be renamed North Argentina. Or possibly Newer Mexico!
January 18th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
Ragout,
I am sure the West Bank is more crowded than any place else in the world — and Gaza does not really fit the description of another place because it is part of the same sovereign nation. How’s that for slinking out of it?
January 18th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
yer an asshole too, ragout. Useless.
Find me a reason why you are happy today about all this. One thousand Palestinians died for every Israeli in this shoddy little conflict.
Your priority is to find the “pro-hamas” people.
Maybe you are an immoral, total, piece of shit and that’s the thought to take to bed with you.
January 18th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
100:1. Sorry about that. May you sleep well, sir.
January 18th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Is the West Bank crowded?
Yeah, and no. The parts of it with water are crowded and by coincidence of course they are crowded by Jewish settlements. That’s the land bridge along the green line as less as odder places like Hebron. You can walk Hebron from longest part to shortest part in ten minutes, but the water of course, is all under crazy, religious Jewish settlers.
January 19th, 2009 at 1:46 am
Ed: “it’s not something Israel can refuse.”
Actually I think they can and will refuse it. They’ve ignored enough UN resolutions over the years – with full US backing – that there’s really no way short of military force – which I think should be used – to force them to accept UN monitoring in the territories.
As for Hamas, I think they would be happy to accept UN monitoring IF it meant that the Gaza blockade would be lifted COMPLETELY. If the UN can’t do anything about that, it would be a waste of time. All if would mean is that the UN gets to try to stop Hamas firing rockets while Israel gets a free ride – as usual.
I like Denis’ idea – use the UN or US forces to kick the IDF out and open the roads, and lift the Gaza blockade. He’s probably right that the settlers would then leave on their own hook – some of them anyway, a net gain.
It would also show Israel that the US is serious about resolving things.
Of course, there is absolutely no way this is going to happen because Obama is committed to following the same US foreign policies from the last twenty years for his term. There’s no way he’s going to do anything radical about the Palestinian situation.
January 19th, 2009 at 10:35 am
The number one Israeli “opposition” writer, Uri Avnery, is at:
http://avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html
January 19th, 2009 at 10:48 am
I am sure the West Bank is more crowded than any place else in the world
It isn’t. Singapore is about twice as crowded as Gaza and roughly 10 times denser than the West Bank. The West Bank has many farms and Gaza has some too — it’s not like either place is one big city.
January 19th, 2009 at 11:23 am
The parts of [the West Bank] with water are crowded and by coincidence of course they are crowded by Jewish settlements.
Actually, the opposite is true. The hill country, where most West Bank Palestinians live, has the best agricultural land in historic Palestine. They receive the most rainfall and have the most groundwater. It is true that Israel takes a lot of the aquifer water, mostly for Jerusalem.
January 19th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
What have we done for the innocent victims of Israeli aggression in Lebanon? Nothing that I’ve heard about. However, I know where we can divert $3 billion a year that’s not being used for any worthwhile purpose.
January 19th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Does Mr. Marshall imagine that Israel is going to employ homicide bombers? If so, he’s been smoking a lot of lefty luckies lately.
Ga, homicide bombers. Only SLC and Fox News still use that. I think the Israelis have been employing “homicide bombers” in that they’ve been dropping bombs which have killed people.
January 19th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Since I oppose violence in all forms, I absolutely oppose Palestinian “homicide” bombers. It’s a waste of a perfectly good Palestinian.
January 20th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Richard Steven Hack says:
“I like Denis’ idea – use the UN or US forces to kick the IDF out and open the roads, and lift the Gaza blockade. He’s probably right that the settlers would then leave on their own hook – some of them anyway, a net gain.”
How exactly does the US “kick” the IDF out? Don’t tell me you’re advocating, god forbid, the use of force! Why, using force can sometimes get people killed. Killing people is amoral as I’ve read here many times. Or is there an exception for killing jews?
We both know that the US will invade Switzerland before they commit military force to oppose the IDF. But let’s assume for a minute the US does as you advocate. It blocks the IDF and opens the Gaza crossings. Would that be it? What if Hamas decided to exact revenge against their Fatah enemies inside Gaza as they are doing now? I guess that would be none of our business right? Apparently Arabs killing Arabs or Arabs killing jews and maybe even Arabs killing us is much more desirable than Jews killing Arabs. You are essentially advocating a policy that allows Arabs to continue to kill each other, wage global jihad against us, oppress minorities and women, and teach intolerance to another generation of young men. If you don’t agree, tell me what exactly you would demand from the leadership of Hamas in Gaza? Or do you envision they would be so greatful they would do whatever we asked of them?
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