Second Avenue Subway
Petey’s asked me a couple of times if the Second Avenue Subway project in New York shouldn’t qualify as a stimulus-eligible shovel-ready project. I think the issue here is that the project is too shovel-ready and the funding and work is already in place. And I think you can’t just do it faster because of the limited supply of tunneling machines—they’re trying to minimize “cut and cover” construction since this is a very built-up area, and the equipment for this kind of boring isn’t something you can pick up at a hardware store. But if that’s wrong, then, yes, this is definitely the kind of thing that deserves to be in line ahead of new highway construction in terms of infrastructure money.
Still, I mostly don’t have a problem with there not being huge new transit construction in a stimulus bill. New need to reform the overall infrastructure policy for the long run, not just for an economic emergency. But what really does deserve hefty stimulus funding is transit operating expenses which would be both fast-acting, progressive in distributional impact, environmentally sound, and high-multiplier. What’s more, unlike new construction it’s the kind of thing you could phase out relatively easily when it becomes unnecessary.
38 Responses to “Second Avenue Subway”
Register
RSSLogin
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog RollAbout Matt YglesiasContact Me
Donate
January 23rd, 2009 at 5:15 pm
I knew the day would come when your typos left me unable to understand what you’re saying….
January 23rd, 2009 at 5:19 pm
There are a lot of people in NY that would be unemployed if not for the TARP and the massive government backstop of the financial industry. Their actions and mistakes led to a collapse of the financial market, and so far it has hurt everyone but them – because they have gotten government $$.
Instead of giving them cash to hoard, why don’t we give them all pick axes, shovels, and headlamps and they can have at these tunnels. They probably wouldn’t be the best people for the job – most of them are fat, dumb, and lazy, but at least when their actions lead to another collapse it will be them getting buried!!!!
January 23rd, 2009 at 5:40 pm
What about the new NJTransit tunnel under the Hudson? It just got final environmental approval, so that’s about as shovel-ready as they come.
January 23rd, 2009 at 5:42 pm
PETEY! classic.
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:04 pm
my work brings me into contact with a cross-section of architects, planners, and public officials, and i can tell you, the number of shovel-ready projects a year from now is going to be WAY bigger than the number of shovel-ready projects today….
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:07 pm
It shouldn’t qualify because it is and always was an unnecessary project. I take the 5 train an hour to work everyday, and it’s crowded, but it ain’t that crowded and it’ll get you where you’re going. You pampered ass east-siders can huff it a few blocks to Lex. You all like to exercise.
There is however, major expansion that could be done in all of the other boroughs, where most people have to walk serious distance, drive or take a bus or dollar van, just to begin their subway commute. Christ, if you must build another line in Manhattan, at least extend it to the boroughs.
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:17 pm
I take the 5 train an hour to work everyday, and it’s crowded, but it ain’t that crowded
OT: If you’re on the 4/5/6 for an entire hour, you’re probably coming from way up in the Bronx— and for most of the ride, it probably isn’t that crowded. Once one gets into Manhattan, though, it IS that crowded. I don’t think I’ve ever actually sat down on the 4/5/6—ever.
The point about extending new lines into the boroughs is valid, though. At the very least, they could make the L line something other than a total embarrassment to the very concept of public transit.
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Hell, I would take the 4/5 as the initial leg to get to Jay St. in Brooklyn and that could take 45 minutes. Between waiting for three trains to come and go before there was space to do my sardine impression and then the slow movement until getting to 42nd (or 14th on bad days), it was pure misery.
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:26 pm
James:
I am coming from way up in the Bronx (Pelham Parkway). But does anyone really expect to sit down on a subway during rush hour? There are plenty of seats for the elderly, pregnant and infirm. I feel like the rest of us can deal with it. Also, as you say, that crowded train only really lasts during the white people stops in Manhattan.
I sometimes take the 2 as an alternative and have found that it’s far more crowded than the 5 and much less comfortable because it still has the older model, 80’s style, less ventilated cars.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:01 pm
I think one of the issues with shovel-readiness is that some are (perhaps justly) concerned that many of these projects have already secured funding from other, existing sources. Simply allowing municipalities and states to use infrastructure money for other programs will not necessarily create the jobs and environmental benefits that are two main objectives of the stimulus (esp if they use it for tax cuts or to pay a budget deficit).
On the other hand, there are tons of great transit and infrastructure projects out there that have not secured financing. But naturally, these tend to be a bit further down the pipeline.
Also, I whole heartedly agree with the focus on long term changes in the way such projects are funded with an eye toward more control and funding on the metropolitan level. I also agree with the bit about investing in transit operating expenditures. Maybe GM can retrofit a factory somewhere to start assembling more buses, etc.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:17 pm
“I think the issue here is that the project is too shovel-ready and the funding and work is already in place. And I think you can’t just do it faster because of the limited supply of tunneling machines”
Thanks. Now I know.
(Though I would suggest that we put stimulus money into building more tunneling machine factories in that case…)
—–
And FWIW, I discovered today that Bruce Bowen almost became an all-star starter because the Argentines and French voted straight-ticket Spurs due to the presence of Ginobili and Parker…
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Matt – you should check in with Ben Kabak at http://www.secondavenuesagas.com.
I basically agree with your assessment – but one thing that could be done is to draw up plans for extending the “T” to the Bronx and Brooklyn. Possibly even to Staten Island (another project that was begun in the 1920s and abandoned)
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:08 pm
A lot of us in smallish cities would really like to see expanded bus service. Some effort in that area would require more manufacturing of buses, more drivers, etc. Sounds like stimulus to me. Why aren’t people talking about more buses?
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:37 pm
<em?At the very least, they could make the L line something other than a total embarrassment to the very concept of public transit.
Them’s fighting words.
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:42 pm
wasn’t there a plan to extend the 7 west, that ended up including one less station that initially planned b/c of cost issues? we could fund that.
What about keeping public libraries/playgrounds/&c open longer–it would employ lots of people at various levels of education and training, AND would provide much needed free resources for the people. Nutricious and budget friendly cooking classes could even help the obesity problem!
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Petey,
If you want to complain about all-star voting, Brandon Roy, 10th! Obviously with Kobe and Paul he isn’t going to start, but 10th? Behind the likes of Rafer Alston and Jason Kidd?
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:03 pm
I don’t think the “too shovel ready” factor is pertinent. After all, it’s been shovel ready for longer than all of us have been alive. The question is how much of it, if any, will ever be built, especially after an economic downturn.
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:08 pm
Why the multiplier? (Honest question.) ‘Cause it would go mainly to salaries for new employees, or avoiding frozen or falling wages?
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:40 pm
Geez. The Second Avenue line is never gonna be finished. I saw the digging for it when I was in high school in the 1970s for crying out loud, and I’m pushing 50 now!
@laborlibert – I used to ride the 5 to Pelham Parkway when I live there in the 70s. I remember even back then there were no seats until you got up above 125th Street.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:19 am
I still don’t see why you concede that these projects be “shovel ready”. Sure, getting dollars into the economy right away is important. And infrastructure spending can have lasting positive effects on commerce. So marrying the 2 is important. But there are, by some estimates, over 150 billion in shovel ready projects, IE ready to dig in less than 6 months. Don’t you think it important to invest in projects that are a little more long term; say 1-2 years before shovel ready? Is that really so long term in order to have better roads, rails, airports, seaports, subways, etc.?
January 24th, 2009 at 2:13 am
Maybe GM can retrofit a factory somewhere to start assembling more buses, etc.
Given that GM gave up building buses in the 1980s when the market was had only one effective competitor, and the government subsidies essentially ensured steady buisness, I’d would suspect that GM would have no desire to go into a market with two well (foreign owned) established firms and a few other smaller players.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:46 am
This is doubletalk. Municipalities and states that cannot run budget deficits that have “committed” to funding capital works and are facing budget deficits routinely defer or cancel the capital works. Just deploying the phrase “have already secured funding” is not a magic wand that creates a revenue stream from thin air.
And this is false dichotomy by Matthew is an even more egregious rhetorical magic wand:
… in a stroke eliminating more than $50b in capital backlog to bring systems up to a state of good repair and exercise options to buy vehicles and rolling stock to respond to the increase in public transit ridership over the last three years that the aggressive attack on public transport funding have left unexercised.
“New” capital spending and “operating” spending eliminates from consideration the capital backlog, but it does not in fact remove the capital backlog itself … and of course, fixing as much of the capital backlog as feasible will improve transit authority operating budgets both now and in the future, so it has a short term stimulus benefit as well as being a complement to long term economic growth.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
I disagree with your assessment; it’s true enough for the segment the’re building now (”Phase I”, from 63rd Street to 96th Street), but the full build-out can be accellerated by doing preliminary work like utility relocation now, wherever it is needed along the full 125th Street to Hanover Square route. There’s not enough guaranteed money in the pipeline to carry the project beyond Phase I, and if you’re going to choke off traffic, you might as well do it the whole length of Second Avenue all at once. There’s an environmental justice aspect to boosting the SAS, as well; the guaranteed Phase I segment runs through the wealthy Upper East Side, while Phase II extends north into not-as-wealthy East Harlem, and you can insert standard boilerplate about the poor being more transit-dependant here.
February 23rd, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Very good place
==
http://street-wear.org/frockfashionwordpresscom/
February 28th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
My understanding is that Phase I (the extension of the Q train under 2nd Avenue, with new station stops at 72nd, 86th, and 96th) is fully funded at this time. Phase II, III and IV of the project are not shovel-ready at the moment.
I run a Blog that is attempting to document the construction of the Launch Box for the 2nd Avenue Subway. You can find the Blog on this link:
Ben
March 1st, 2009 at 5:20 am
viagra
Very interesting site. Hope it will always be alive!
March 11th, 2009 at 4:26 am
I bookmarked this site. Thank you for good job!
March 14th, 2009 at 5:07 am
It is the coolest site,keep so!
xanax
March 17th, 2009 at 2:23 am
Excellent site. It was pleasant to me.
tramadol
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:01 am
tramadol
I bookmarked this site. Thank you for good job!
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:52 pm
hello
just thanks
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:53 pm
i’ll reed it againn
April 2nd, 2009 at 5:07 am
I bookmarked this site. Thank you for good job!
buy cheap viagra
April 3rd, 2009 at 4:04 am
If you have to do it, you might as well do it right
cheap brand pfizer viagra
April 9th, 2009 at 5:14 am
Great site, Good info viagra