Peres: Gaza Operation is Collective Punishment, and I Love It
Israel’s President, Shimon Peres, says:
Israel’s aim, he said, was to provide a strong blow to the people of Gaza so that they would lose their appetite for shooting at Israel.
The other aim was to prevent an Iranian takeover of Gaza and Iranian weapons from entering Gaza. He supported the idea of food being sent from Iran to Gaza, but not rockets or explosives.
“We have to stop the smuggling of arms, but someone else has to stop the provision of arms,” he said.
Most Arab states are even more worried than Israel about Iran, Peres asserted, because they don’t want to be governed by Iran.
Getting back to civilian suffering in Gaza, Peres said, “it gives us no pleasure to see people suffering.”
He says it gives him “no pleasure” to see people suffering, but he also says that the main point of the operation is to provide a strong blow to Gaza’s population to teach them a lesson. So that’s kind of a disingenuous protestation of displeasure. And of course in his remarks, Peres is echoing New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman’s explanation of Israeli strategy which, in turn, echoed Friedman’s own rationale for invading Iraq—that we needed to send a “suck on this” message to the Arab world. It also seems related to what Jonah Goldberg has termed the “Ledeen Doctrine”, the view that “Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business.” Israel being much smaller than the United States, it presumably needs to pick up a smaller and crappier place like the Gaza Strip.
Israeli officials are hardly alone in embracing this sort of morally hideous behavior. Indeed as noted there’s reason to believe they’ve imported these ideas from the hawkish camp in the United States. And of course policies oriented around collective punishment and reprisal targeting of civilian populations are hardly unheard of in human history. But they’re wrong and a substantial body of international humanitarian law is dedicated to making them illegal.
107 Responses to “Peres: Gaza Operation is Collective Punishment, and I Love It”
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January 16th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
He says it gives him “no pleasure” to see people suffering, but he also says that the main point of the operation is to provide a strong blow to Gaza’s population to teach them a lesson. So that’s kind of a disingenuous protestation of displeasure.
“Believe me, this hurts me more than it hurts you…”
January 16th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Ever feel like you’re a Chimp scientist, on a planet where warlike Orangutans and Gorillas are in charge?
January 16th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Israel blew up a UN shelter. A UN SHELTER … what excuse do they have for that – none, they have even admitted that they are sorry. One has to come to the conclusion that the IDF is just trying to terrorize the Palestinian Civilian Population so that it turns on Hamas.
The IDF wants the Palestinian civilians to think there is no safe refuge, not even in UN schools or UN shelters. The IDF calls it tactics, civilized society calls it terrorism, and the Israeli people will pay for it with 20 more years of suicide attacks and rocket blasts.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Peres looks like he’s trying to hypnotize me.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
I’m not sure why people think this way. Imagine the following paragraph:
Would Peres think that this would be a winning strategy for Hamas?
If Israel thinks they’re going to subjugate Gaza with force, they’re mistaken. Doing so would require a LOT more violence, probably more than the world would let them get away with.
This war makes a kind of sense for Israel if the objective is to grind down Hamas’ offensive capabilities. It makes no sense whatsoever if the objective is collective punishment.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
But they’re wrong and a substantial body of international humanitarian law is dedicated to making them illegal.
So when will these guys be held accountable? Or can the international community try war criminals only when they are from Africa?
January 16th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
only when they are from Africa?
* or South America
January 16th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Indeed as noted there’s reason to believe they’ve imported these ideas from the hawkish camp in the United States.
Generally when thus phrase is used it’s accompanied by a note. On the internet, this generally takes the form of a hyperlink.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
playing devil’s advocate here (funny how when it comes to Israel/Palestine one always has to hedge one’s words) …
The rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza for years – no one in the Gaza territory has had the political or the social or the moral will to put a stop to them – maybe, just maybe, without the rockets, a climate of trust could develop that would ultimately lead to a real peace and real Palestinian state – but with the rockets be fired at will, and no one in Gaza willing to stop them, we’ll never know, will we?
So I can understand the point that Peres is making in the big scheme of things – make the cost of continuing to fire the rockets so large and costly to the Palestinian people that there will be the political or social will to have them ended.
As long as the government and the people of Gaza allow the rocketfire to continue, short of outright occupation and the creation of a complete police state by Israel (been there, done that) – what other options exist to get the rockets ended?
January 16th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Re Matthew’s comment “Indeed as noted there’s reason to believe they’ve imported these ideas from the hawkish camp in the United States. ”
————–
Actually, I think the intellectual tradition goes back to the Waffen SS. Although an American Indian might differ.
Of course, no one in the Mainstream New Media will question Peres. For the same reason that no one asked why we were putting a Holocaust Memorial on the National Mall but nothing about the destruction of several hundred Indian tribes.
And who remembers the outcry a few years ago when the Smithsonian tried to tip toe around the exhibit on the Enola Gay and the atomic bombing of Japan?
Pigs will fly before you will see any honest discussion of what the US Congress has done to the Palestinians. Whatever Israel’s shortcomings, those F16s and bombs weren’t made in Tel Aviv.
The commercial is wrong. America doesn’t run on Dunkin — America runs on deceitful, dishonest bullshit.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Al, you are a moron and unfortunately there’s no pill for it.
Sure, Israel really cares about the death of innocent civilians hence bombing schools, hospitals, residential apartment complexes and UNITED NATION’S BUILDING.
168 countries in the world have condemned Israel. Israel is not sustainable.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Greenwald had a post several days ago explaining how this is the textbook definition of a war crime.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
By the way, did he brief Abe Foxman before saying this?
January 16th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Walker,
ADL will surely accuse Mr Greenwald of the usual label. ADL, AIPAC and most pro israeli thugs have only two words on their arsenal:
anti semitism
terrorism
Don’t ask for critical thinking on their part. It’s not part of their collective psyche.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Peres specifically refenced the people who are “shooting at Israel”. Such persons are not civilians.
That’s a, um, tortured reading of:
“Israel’s aim, he said, was to provide a strong blow to the people of Gaza so that they would lose their appetite for shooting at Israel.”
Without the direct quote from Peres, it’s hard to say for sure, but the indirect quotation does not support Al’s spin. Peres, in the indirect quotation, says “the people of Gaza” are being targeted, and then fails to distinguish between the people of Gaza in general and the ones doing the shooting. Which is telling.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
BTW Israel used white phosphorus when bombing the UN Shelter. Double war crime whammy right there.
Just wondering for Israeli supporters, if Hamas had a suicide bomber take out a coffee shop Tzipi Livni was at and 50 people died would that be okay? What if she was visiting a school, would it be okay for Hamas to take out 50 kids to get her? What if she was at home, would it be okay to if Hamas took out Tzipi and Omri and Yuval just happened to be at home?
January 16th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Al’s a certified moron. Safe to ignore him.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Hamas fighters were using a UN food warehouse to take cover while firing at Israeli troops.
How do you know that? Because the Israeli Army said so? The same army that does all of the killing? The army of the government currently banning journalists from Gaza?
Funny how any civilian building knocked into rubble is always described post-facto as a “terrorist HQ” or “rocket-launching site” by the Israeli/neocon propaganda machine.
The Israeli army and government have now about as much credibility as the Bush administration.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
“Indeed as noted there’s reason to believe they’ve imported these ideas from the hawkish camp in the United States.”
We’re seeing more discussion of Israeli influence on U-S politics, but the truth is that what’s most trouble is the U-S influence on Israeli politics. Specifically, the limp wristed right-wingers here who egg on and defend the worst impulses in the Jewish state.
Mike
January 16th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
“Hamas fighters were using a UN food warehouse to take cover while firing at Israeli troops.”
Gawwwwwwwwwd told him personally. Expecting pro Israeli thugs to have critical thinking skills is really too much.
Very simple:
1)Thugs thrive on violence;
2)Pro Israelis thrive on violence
thereofore pro Israelis are thugs.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Very simple:
1)Thugs thrive on violence;
2)Pro Israelis thrive on violence
thereofore pro Israelis are thugs.
Um…
January 16th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Turkey’s PM: Israel must be barred from UN:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/16/turkeys-erdogan-israel-sh_n_158500.html
Rumour has it that Beligium will expel Israeli ambassador in a few days. Let’s get the momentum going.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Farid, I would put the chances of Belgium expelling the Israeli ambassador at approximately zero. First, because there’s nothing in their history or present politics to even remotely suggest it. Second, as an EU member they wouldn’t do that kind of thing except as a coordinated EU move.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Second, as an EU member they wouldn’t do that kind of thing except as a coordinated EU move.
Apparently you know nothing about the EU. EU and foreign policy don’t mix.
Although I don’t think Belgium or any European country would actually do something like that. If they trade with China, why not with Israel?
January 16th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
http://www.peres-center.org
January 16th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
“If they trade with China, why not with Israel?”
China is not a genocidal apartheid state, Israel by all account is.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Israel’s aim, he said, was to provide a strong blow to the people of Gaza so that they would lose their appetite for shooting at Israel.
That’s not possible. Every Zionist I’ve ever read has assured me that Israel is just trying it’s darnedest to avoid civilian casualties. There’s this Hebrew word for “purity of arms,” you see, which means that Israel wouldn’t do such a thing.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Hey, Yglesias,
Someone on the internet needs help with Logic 101.
If it starts with an F A R and ends with an I D….
January 16th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Hamas fighters were using a UN food warehouse to take cover while firing at Israeli troops.
How do you know that? Because the Israeli Army said so?
The ironic thing is, THE ISRAELI ARMY DIDN’T SAY SO!! They said that the bombing of the UN building was a mistake in targetting.
But that’s our Al – 12,000 miles from the lines, but more Zionist than the Zionists. Go get ‘em, guys! I’m behind you…waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy behind you.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Interesting how the IDF are always just reacting to Hamas shooting at them, but the IDF’s soldiers never get shot.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
China is not a genocidal apartheid state, Israel by all account is.
Many Uyghurs, Tibetans and other minorities would disagree with that statement.
January 16th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
We have no moral standing to criticize Israel’s war crimes when we have yet to display any resolve in investigating our own.
January 16th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Is Al?
January 16th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
As the saying goes, war is negotiation by other means. No amount of diplomacy will convince Hamas to stop shooting rockets into Israel. Israel cannot live in constant fear of rocket attack. The only option they are left with is military confrontation. It would be nice if that could be done without harming civilians but that’s not the reality on the ground in Gaza. If Hamas and the Palestinians in Gaza want to end the conflict, they can do it tomorrow. All they need do is halt their rocket attacks. If they don’t, then Israel will halt the attacks the only way possible. If that means some innocent people will die in the process, so be it.
That’s the nature of war. We seem to forget that wars are brutal, bloody and destructive. At the end, one side or the other decides they’ve suffered enough and surrenders or negotiates a cessation of the conflict. If there is another solution, I’d love to hear it. Hamas, armed, funded and backed by Tehran, has steadily increased the accuracy and range of their missiles. If Israel does nothing, how long would it be before rockets start falling in Tel Aviv? Is Israel supposed to sit back and allow rockets to fall on their cities? What other solution is there? Make the citizens of Gaza choose. Do they want war or do they want peace? They may not be ready to embrace peace right away but after a few more weeks of what they’re experiencing now, they may decide it’s preferable to war.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
I’ve been doing this awhile, and I’m about 99% sure if you could track Farid down he’s a flavor of miltant zionist taking a piss. He’s not what he says he is.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
If there is another solution, I’d love to hear it.
Two states. Israel retreats to internationally recognized borders (UN resolution 242) and stops controlling the borders and airspace of Gaza and the West Bank.
Until then, Israel is bombing and waging “war” against people who are de facto her own citizens.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
To nynick: search the web and type 4 november 2008 Israel attacks on Gaza. THAT is the date when the truce was put to an end…because half of this planet was busy watching Obama being elected. At that precise moment very few rockets kept falling on israel, which meant that the truce was ok. Israel decided to keep the blockade and bomb Gaza for calendar reasons:
!1. Transition in the US with the election + the fact that Bush likes the way israel solves
January 16th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
Jimboslice says:
“if Hamas had a suicide bomber take out a coffee shop Tzipi Livni was at and 50 people died would that be okay? What if she was visiting a school, would it be okay for Hamas to take out 50 kids to get her? What if she was at home, would it be okay to if Hamas took out Tzipi and Omri and Yuval just happened to be at home?”
What is preventing Hamas from doing that very thing? They don’t think it’s fair to attack the Israeli leaders or the protection provided by the IDF to the leadership of Israel? If Hamas had the ability and the means to take out the leaders of Israel, they would do it in a heartbeat. In short, they are the weak and Israel is the strong. The strong enforce their will on the weak. If Hamas wants to be the strong one on the block, they can ask their friends in Tehran to attack Israel. Tehran won’t do that because they know they will suffer severely even if they managed to win the conflict. They are not willing to put their own country at risk for the sake of the people in Gaza.
It’s that simple. Look at it this way, we embraced Georgia and held out NATO membership to them as an enticement. Russia called the bluff. They invaded, annexed the area under conflict and we did nothing. We decided it was not worth the risk to our interests to protect Geogia from Russian assault. Russia has not paid a price for their aggression because they won battle both on the ground in the larger geopolitical arena. Hamas is like Georgia. They may think they can win a conflict with Israel either because they overestimated their strength, underestimated the strength and will of Israel or because they thought Iran or someone else would come to their aid. They were wrong. They can continue to shoot rockets into Israel or they can have a functioning infrastructure in the Gaza Strip. They cannot do both.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
The strong enforce their will on the weak.
Heil Nick!
January 16th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Jimboslice says:
“if Hamas had a suicide bomber take out a coffee shop Tzipi Livni was at and 50 people died would that be okay? What if she was visiting a school, would it be okay for Hamas to take out 50 kids to get her? What if she was at home, would it be okay to if Hamas took out Tzipi and Omri and Yuval just happened to be at home?”
This is a great observation. Israel has taught us that it is appropriate (1) to punish an entire population for voting improperly; (2) to punish an entire population for not enforcing a non-existent ceasefire; and (3) to kill entire families to go after one guy.
I suspect that Hamas has learned the lesson and will find the opportunity to reciprocate. And when it is Livni’s entire family or Barak’s entire family, we can all join hands and denouce the “animals” who killed them. And Hamas’s supporters can then take a page from Dershowitz and claim that by associating with their families, Israeli politicians were employing a “dead baby” strategy.
Seymour Hersh was right. People have no learning curve. We just keep repeating the same barbaric sh*t over and over.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Hitler was strong. European Jews were weak. Hitler enforced his will on the weak Jews.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
A state’s attack on its occupied territory hardly constitutes “war”—it’s a massacre.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Nick says: “Hamas is like Georgia. They may think they can win a conflict with Israel either because they overestimated their strength, underestimated the strength and will of Israel or because they thought Iran or someone else would come to their aid. They were wrong.”
In order for this retarded anology to work, Israel would need to be about 60 times the population of Palestine. But at least we can agree, that Mr. I’m-going-to-let-the-Zionistas-use-my-country-as-an-airbase-vili never should have attacked Russia.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
To nynick: search the web and type 4 november 2008 Israel attacks on Gaza (guardian.co.uk). THAT is the date when the truce was put to an end because half of this planet was busy watching Obama being elected. At that precise moment very few rockets kept falling on Israel, which meant that the truce was almost ok. Israel decided to keep the blockade and bomb Gaza for calendar and of course, expansionist reasons:
1. Transition in the US with the election + the fact that Bush likes the way israel solves their common problems against their beloved neighbours!
2. The more radical, pro Great Israel, anti Palestinian speech you hold the better are your chances to win the elections that will take place… on the 10th of February.
PS Late in December, i posted a point of view on a French online newspaper where i mentioned that my theory of calendar was that Israel would quite ‘accidentally’ admit the principle of a truce right before the 20th of January… Do you better understand now? The agreement that is taking place is Tzipi Livni meeting Condi bla bla bla and saying ‘Yes now we stop bombing, we cleaned the house!
I would like to add that, so far, the UN is not an Arab or Muslim organization and its resolutions is very often blocked by the US if it is against its interest or Israel’s.
So, no American should allow himself to patronize on this matter The US and Isral have brought war to the middle east.
PEACE WILL COME WHEN MIDDLE EAST WILL RUN SHORT OF GAS AND OIL AND THEN THE US WILL LEAVE AND COMPELL ISRAEL TOA 2 STATE SOLUTION…WE WON’T BE HERE TO SEE SO.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Why oh Why writes:
“Two states. Israel retreats to internationally recognized borders (UN resolution 242) and stops controlling the borders and airspace of Gaza and the West Bank.”
Have you read resolution 242? There is more to it than Israel’s withdrawal. It:
Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
Israel has already ceded the Sinai to Egypt and withdrawn from Gaza. The leaders of the Palestinian movement have never lived up to their end of this bargain. Not in ‘73, not now, not ever. The resolution called for a negotiated settlement on the permanent borders. It did not call on Israel to give away strategically important territory to enemies intent on continuing the conflict.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Jimboslice writes:
“This is a great observation. Israel has taught us that it is appropriate (1) to punish an entire population for voting improperly; (2) to punish an entire population for not enforcing a non-existent ceasefire; and (3) to kill entire families to go after one guy.”
I would argue that lesson has been learned many times throughout history. Germany embraced Hitler and war in Europe until Dresden was laid to waste. They learned that war wasn’t nearly as much fun when it was your city being leveled. There were exactly zero military targets in Dresden, Germany. We bombed the place until there was not a single building left standing. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died as a result but Germany never had the same zeal for war after that.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Hundreds of thousands of civilians died as a result but Germany never had the same zeal for war after that.
Have you ever heard of World War I? The Thirty Years War? The One Hundred Years War? Europe has been a bloody battlefield for centuries.
Do you really believe another mass slaughter taught anything to European politicians? Your ignorance is amazing.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Wiley writes:
“A state’s attack on its occupied territory hardly constitutes “war”—it’s a massacre.”
Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. They dismantled four settlements and dragged many settlers from their homes when they refused to leave peacefully. The people of Gaza held an election and Hamas won. Gaza is not occupied by Israel. When it’s the official policy of the elected government to shoot rockets into the cities and villages of the country with which they share a border, the result is going to be war.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
Michael Ledeen is right.
We need to pick up Israel, a “crappy little country” that happens to be an illegal, rogue, terrorist state, and throw it against the wall to convince the Zionists we mean business and that we’re no longer taking their orders just because a few Zionist billionaires live in the US.
Now as a former wannabe terrorist myself, personally I think the leaders of Israel should be killed by assassins operating for Hamas. It should be done in such a manner that only the actual targets and perhaps their bodyguards and any other member of the Israeli government who is around get killed, but not any other civilians. It really isn’t that hard to do if you’re smart about it. Look at how Israel took out Mughniyah – with an explosive headrest in his car. Now that’s precision targeting!
I always wanted to shoot General Schwartzkopf in the head with a sniper rifle or even just a direct .45 in the head, then hang a sign around his neck saying “THIS is precision targeting” – since all his military did with “precision targeting” is kill a bunch of civilians.
Terrorism is usually represented as the most brutal form of warfare, when in fact it could be done in the most humane manner – while still terrorizing the targets of the campaign.
The Russian group who coined the term “terrorism” defined it as using violence against the members of the oppressive STATE – not civilians – to terrorize the state. That is terrorism’s appropriate employment.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Uh, ny nick, Israel has built a wall around Gaza, required Palestinians to go through checkpoints to leave the area; prevented food, fuel, and medical supplies from being delivered to Gaza, turned off their water, etc. Whatever PR perceptions you want to entertain, the fact remains that Gaza is an illegally occupied territory.
And Israel broke the ceasefire.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Why oh why says:
“Have you ever heard of World War I? The Thirty Years War? The One Hundred Years War? Europe has been a bloody battlefield for centuries.
Do you really believe another mass slaughter taught anything to European politicians? Your ignorance is amazing.”
Speaking of ignorance, may I suggest you work on your reading comprehension. I said, the bombing of Dresden taught a lesson the people of Germany. Our goal was not to teach European politicians anything. Our goal was to break the will of the German people. You see, you ignorant pacifist fool, the goal of a war is to win the damn thing. The history of violent conflict in Europe is a prime example of why it’s important to get the right outcome in war. Europe has been at peace for the most part since WWII. Had we decided that killing the Germans was just too mean and we did nothing, would the last fifty years of European history be better? Would the middle east be a peaceful land of love and harmony if Israel didn’t exist? Does history suggest that the leaders of middle eastern nations are friendly, peace loving and friendly to US interests? A world without conflict would be great but it’s never existed and sure as shit doesn’t exist now.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
ny nick says:
Maybe you should heed your own advice. In post #50 you quote Mythbuster in #44, not me.
BTW, you seem like a sick man who gets off thinking that the country you back has a powerful military and can kick the crap out of whatever country it dislikes. I don’t know if this was because you were picked on as a child, or if it was because your small dick made you fell inadequate in the locker room shower, but whatever it is, its pretty disturbing. I would hope next time freaks like you want to get their jollies off just pick up a few cats and torture them instead of encouraging others to torture and torment actual humans.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
You see, you ignorant pacifist fool, the goal of a war is to win the damn thing. The history of violent conflict in Europe is a prime example of why it’s important to get the right outcome in war. Europe has been at peace for the most part since WWII. Had we decided that killing the Germans was just too mean and we did nothing, would the last fifty years of European history be better?
What we did was almost meaningless compared to what Europeans decided to do. Why didn’t your wonderful theory work after WWI? After centuries of violence, the English, French, Germans and Italians concluded that peace and cooperation were in their best interests. If only Israelis and Palestinians could understand that already.
A world without conflict would be great but it’s never existed and sure as shit doesn’t exist now.
Europe hasn’t seen any (major) conflict in the last 60 years. Neither has North America for that matter.
Peace is not only possible, it is desirable and the best possible outcome.
- “ignorant pacifist fool” (as opposed to intelligent warmongering expert?)
January 16th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
why oh why,
Israel didn’t build that wall because they didn’t like the view. The wall is not an occupying force anyway. It’s just a wall. They were trying their best to stop suicide bombers, rocket attacks and armed incursions aimed at killing Israelis.
Here’s my question to you and then I have to say good night. How many suicide bombers is too many? How many rocket attacks would be sufficient provocation for an Israeli response? Let’s imagine for minute that Hamas took over Israel. Would they install a government to your liking? Are you really so blind as to think that Hamas is the preferable choice to the current government in Israel? Because that’s what they want. They want to re-occupy Israel. If they were successful, do you think they would care two shits what you or anyone else thought about how they operated? Your concern for the people of Gaza is great but would you care as passionately for the first young Palestinian girl who got caught holding the hand of an Israeli young man as her brothers put two bullet holes in brain for bringing dishonor to their family? Because that is the reality of Arab leadership in the Gaza strip. Backward, macho and violent. That’s the side you are advocating for.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
I like the Dresden stuff better than the “moral clarity” bullshit that used to get thrown around.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
That’s the side you are advocating for.
Now you’re projecting. Not everyone has a “side” in this conflict. I merely point out that Israel has all the power inside her greater borders, and is the only entity to judge by international standards, when it comes to states.
Hamas is a bunch of people that includes “government” officials (without a state), policemen, freedom fighters and terrorists. There is no way they could ever really threaten Israel. Coming up with made-up scenarios and “imagine for minute that Hamas took over Israel” is really meaningless. Or to put it another way: imagine that Israel nukes New York. What shall we do?
January 16th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Ah, fuck, I type that and Nick comes back with a bunch of essentialist, anti-Arab, bullshit.
How many rockets? Well, when you have ran all the Arabs out of their homes into what was an empty moonscape in 1947 pen them all up in garbage dumps for fifty years. Then you wall the whole ghetto up and lay siege to it. If what I got in response to that after I had moved into their homes was some crappy, glorified, fireworks I’d think I got off really, really, lucky.
Don’t make a goddamn Arab pen, problem solved.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
I would wait for rocket attacks that cause more harm to my people than the friendly fire incidents likely to occur during the invasion.
Israel has killed more of it’s own people in this invasion than the rockets launched from Hamas controlled territory ever did.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
I notice those who support razing Gaza, population included if possible, have a problem with the idea of proportionality, but it’s pretty simple to me. 1 Palestinian life = 1 Israeli life = 1 anyone else’s life.
And yet I am told, directly, that this is to hold Israel to a unique standard unasked of any other people in the world. Say the people asking for a unique standard, no?
January 16th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Hey, Nick, I keep thinking about something. You are a tough guy, right? Everyone else is just a pussy for being squemish about terror bombing.
I was looking at a picture earlier and it was an eight year old girl, or what used to be an eight year girl but an Apache had blown her into too many parts to be kept together so the parts were in a trash bag. The trash bag was on a mattress in a UN shelter because it’s too hard to bury people right now and the trash bag has leaked and really fucked up the mattress.
This is your idea of a good time, could you cut out the middle man and just cut her into pieces with a machete? What would be the difference?
January 16th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Israel’s mistake was that it didn’t demolish the border fence between Gaza and Egypt at the start of this war. It should have chased the Palestinians into the Sinai and let them stay there. The Jews spent 40 years wandering the Sinai. Maybe the Palestinians should too. It would give them time to clear their heads and stop being so violent and nihilistic.
January 17th, 2009 at 12:09 am
Matt writes:
“Israeli officials are hardly alone in embracing this sort of morally hideous behavior. Indeed as noted there’s reason to believe they’ve imported these ideas from the hawkish camp in the United States.”
Matt, it is because they are one in the same. The idea that you have anointed yourself a foreign policy expert is laughable – the biggest foreign policy issue of your lifetime – Iraq- you were way off on at the start and your position on the slaughter in gaza is so qualified as to be incoherent.
If you aren’t part of the solution you are part of the problem. The last thing liberals need is a foreign policy expert such as yourself.
January 17th, 2009 at 12:17 am
I find it ironic that this quote:
follows this quote:
January 17th, 2009 at 12:50 am
I have to add a gratuitous “screw you, fucker” to Matt who, because he’s an American, felt entitled to support the invasion of Iraq while other nations have to be very scrupulous about the motives for their wars.
Yes, yes, I know Matt regrets his support of the Iraq war. But that sense of American entitlement where we can decide to invade a country which did absolutely nothing to us while scrutinizing every word of justification used by other invaders….i can’t help being annoyed.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:03 am
Doesn’t Obama bear some responsibility for the harshness of the Israeli offensive in Gaza? He basically gave the Israelis moral cover with his line about how if someone was shooting rockets at his daughters he wouldn’t put up with it.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:12 am
Check out Yossi Klein Halevi in TNR:
January 17th, 2009 at 4:55 am
Soldiers have a duty defend their country.
6-year-olds do not.
January 17th, 2009 at 9:32 am
It might not give him pleasure to see Palestinians suffer, but it certainly gives me pleasure!
January 17th, 2009 at 9:54 am
You might want to tell that to the 100’s of kids that Israel has killed in this slaughter. Oh wait, their dead.
January 17th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Imported from American Hawks?
Seriously Matt?
We are essentially talking about total war here. That’s as old as war is. To some degree not doing it that way is unusual.
It is true that the United States has never shied away from this when necessary. I suspect that its true if anyone was launching rockets at us they would simply be flattened.
But ,for various reasons, Israel has to try and fight with one hand tied behind its back all the time.
This is not a moral defense mind you but a cold look at reality. Hamas has declared war on Israel, they are the elected government in that territory. If you want to stipulate that Israel has the right to exist then they have the right to defend themselves. Proportionality is beside the point. There is no limited way to deal with this.
January 17th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Its not really hard to fight with one hand behind your back when you are sitting in an American made tank, its pretty easy.
Its not really hard to fight with one hand behind your back when you are dropping bombs from a modern American warplane, they are really pretty advanced.
Its not really hard to fight with one hand behind your back when you are given the coordinates to a UN shelter and you decide to drop American made white phosphorus on it.
The Palestinians are the ones fighting with 1 hand tied behind their back because for years they were not allowed to arm themselves as most other states are, they were also not backed by the latest and greatest weapons for free from the worlds only superpower.
January 17th, 2009 at 11:24 am
I think you miss the point Jimbo.
Its funny, I get slammed from all sides for pointing this out depending on which way I do it. But, this is essentially two peoples butting up against each other over the same land. Neither peoples have ever had a particularly clear or coherent strategy of how to accomplish what they want and maybe has not even been clear on what they want. So it has bumbled along into a bigger, and bigger mess.
But a bottom line is that we have war. Hamas made that clear, Hamas is the elected government and they say and act as though their goal is the destruction of Israel.
As Sherman said, “War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it”.
There is no other way.
January 17th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Gaza is not a nation at war with Israel, it is occupied territory, it’s people long ago militarily defeated. And yet Isreal, to defend itself, is perfectly justifiable on waging total war because “War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it.” Right, and when practiced on a people who have no real power to harm, nor a nation to defend themselves, it is completely immoral.
You know the saddest thing is that the most passionate defences for the outrageous slaughters of the second world war, be they Dresden or the Holocaust or Soviet ethnic cleansing are suddenly being provided by supporters of Israel’s slaughter of civilians UNDER IT’S CONTROL and CONTAINED WITHIN TERRITORY IT CONTROLS. If that is justified by the population in control, then why can’t any ethnic group cry “self-defense” and slaughter it’s own scary minority (why not just teach those innner city crime ghettos a lesson by dropping WP on them. Do not they promote crime and addiction. Are there not at least 20 deaths attributable to the Crips and so should not all South Central LA be punished for abetting these terrorists within their midst.
Applying the logic of total war to a subject and basically unarmed population is the very essence of what a war crime is. Never again? Not so much.
January 17th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I mean seriously, my 6 year old sometimes says “I wish you were dead” so I can bomb her school without compunction. Hey, war is heal and she clearly said she wants me dead. Whether or not she is able to accomplish that doesn’t matter, I need to educate her and her school mates that I will not tolerate feeling threatened and sorry, their scary words and hostile if futile attempts to kill me make their lives forfeit. Also their parents for having borne them are complicit, and their neighbors for choosing to live near them. And their employers….
Really, I can’t understand how Israel can propose that the 100% security of it’s citizens is the only consideration that matters, and that even if none of them die it is still justified to kill any number of Palestinians in the name of their defense. Arab lives are clearly treated as less valuable than Israeli ones and anyone who points this out is an anti-semite.
But the storyline remains Hamas started the war, Israel had nothing to do with it. Hospitals bombed in self defense. No other option was available. Peace, justice and prospertity were offered and answered with rocket fire. Right.
January 17th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
AhYup, I think it is you who is missing the point. People with viewpoints like yours are the reason that led Hitler to gas the Jews. I am sure that the people of 1939 Germany share your logic. Hey war is hell, sucks to be those guys, but oh well they asked for it by being born.
January 17th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
No Jimbo people like me would have recognized that this and not tried to do what Israel has tried to do. I would have proceeded with a different strategy in mind all along.
I told you I get grief from both sides depending on how I phrase this and I’ve been called Hitlerite by both sides.
Despite the fact that majorities on each side may want a peaceful resolution I think the conflict is too primal and will always be driven by the extremes to the worst.
If Israel is to exist as a majority Jewish state it will require total war and destruction of their enemies. It will require pounding them until they no longer have any will to carry on in any way shape or form.
Otherwise, they will have to take a totally different political road.
January 17th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
AhYup,
Total war and destruction of their enemies as a long-term survival strategy doesn’t sound so much like a political road as a biblical one (and one paved with good intentions, no doubt.)
But I can’t argue the facts contradict your assumptions, horrific as they are.
January 17th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
To clarify:
I can’t argue thatthe facts contradict your assumptions. They certainly seem to support them.
January 17th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Well Bullsmith we slaughtered the Indians, fire-bombed Germany and nuked Japan. So its not just Biblical.
If you have an enemy that will always attack you until the bitter end what choice is there but to bring about the bitter end?
January 17th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
I don’t think you needed to clarify.
I’ve been on a search through various boards to find someone to convince me that I’m wrong. Its not like I like this conclusion.
I’ve been called lots of nasty names but as of yet have not been convincingly rebutted on this point.
January 17th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
“Its not really hard to fight with one hand behind your back when you are sitting in an American made tank, its pretty easy.”
Israelis use Israel-made Merkava tanks, dipshit. The reason they make their own tanks is that we used to refuse to sell tanks to them decades ago. If we stopped selling them planes and helicopters, they’d make their own planes and helicopters too.
“Gaza is not a nation at war with Israel, it is occupied territory”
From 2005 until three weeks ago it hasn’t been occupied at all. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza ceding the whole territory to the Palestinians. The Palestinians rewarded them with rockets. The reason is that the Palestinians are incapable of creating a state, and need a state of war with Israel as an excuse for their failures.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
I told you I get grief from both sides depending on how I phrase this and I’ve been called Hitlerite by both sides.
That’s because you are amoral. This is really not that hard.
We are essentially talking about total war here. That’s as old as war is. To some degree not doing it that way is unusual.
It is true that the United States has never shied away from this when necessary.
Bullshit. The USA has a hell of a checkered history in warfare, but as a nation, when did it ever engage in total war?
January 17th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Israel has 300 Patton tanks dipshit.
Israel has 6,000 M-113 armored personnel carriers.
Even the Merkava has many US designed parts. The only thing that Israel is good at is using US technology to kill Arabs.
January 17th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
“That’s because you are amoral. This is really not that hard.”
How so? I was pretty clear that this is not the direction I personally would ever have taken.
“Bullshit. The USA has a hell of a checkered history in warfare, but as a nation, when did it ever engage in total war?”
Let’s see, right off the top of my head various parts of the Indian wars. US soldiers certainly massacred whole villages more than once. The civil war in particular Sherman’s march to the sea was strategically and intentionally total war. As was the firebombing of Berlin and dropping the atomic bomb on Japan. You can’t get more total than that. That’s just what comes to mind quickly. I’m sure there is more if I think about it.
January 17th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
The only way someone will ever get through to a “suck on this, filthy shvatz goyim!” poltroon like Tom Friedman is if they do a Danny Pearl on him. Except before they lop his head off – start a little lower. Then show the schmuck’s entreaties on YouTube.
January 17th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
“The only way someone will ever get through to a “suck on this, filthy shvatz goyim!” poltroon like Tom Friedman is if they do a Danny Pearl on him.”
Have you ever considered that one of the reasons left-leaning, formerly-critical-of-Israel Jews like Friedman support Israel’s harsh military response in Gaza is because of barbaric Muslim murders of Jews like the killing of Daniel Pearl? Pearl, remember, was a left-leaning peace-and-love Jew himself, who thought who sought to understand the Saracens. Whole lot of good that did him.
January 17th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Have you ever considered that one of the reasons left-leaning, formerly-critical-of-Israel Jews like Friedman support Israel’s harsh military response in Gaza is because of barbaric Muslim murders of Jews like the killing of Daniel Pearl?
Nobody cares what Friedman thinks or why he changed his mind. The guy is a complete idiot. Marty Peretz has more credibility: at least we know he just hates people with a brown skin.
So Daniel Pearl died, far far from Palestine. His killers were Muslims. You have to be a moron to think that somehow Palestinians bare some responsibility for that crime. More generally, you have to be blinded by racism and religion to think a death toll of 1100 Palestinians and 13 Israeli (including 4 killed by Tsahal) means: Israel is in danger!
January 18th, 2009 at 5:17 am
What are you talking about? Simon Peres is J-street’s poster child of the wise, peace-loving Israeli.
Slim pickings, I guess, with a gaggle of war criminals running that shipwreck.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:30 am
The problem with the entire debate in the US, including Matthew’s contributions, is that– unlike in the UK, for example– very few people are willing to go the extra mile and acknowledge: it is not only the Israeli leadership that commits war crimes through collective punishment, but that a dizzying majority (94% according to a Tel Aviv University poll) of Israelis is in favor of killing and maiming thousands of Gazans. Spare me the crap about trying to avoid civilian casualties. They bombed not one but a number of UN buildings, aid convoys, and schools. That Israel is using overwhelming firepower against a largely defenseless population (50% of Gazans are underaged) should make it pretty fucking obvious that there will be no peace and no two-state solution and that the Zionist project is doomed to be undemocratic. What’s to support? We need a more flexible approach here, especially amongst American Jews.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:52 am
Well, Anne, actually I think the majority of Israelis wouldn’t care about the Palestinians and would get on with their lives if they didn’t have it shoved in their faces every day what assholes the leaders of Israel are, and the resulting blowback from the Palestinians.
As I’ve said repeatedly, sideline the Zionist scumbags and the Islamic fanatics and the rest of the Jewish and Palestinian population would basically get along, being too busy with survival to do anything else like most people in the world.
It’s likely that a majority of American Jews really don’t give a damn about Zionism per se. A poll taken some time back indicated that most American Jews don’t think about Israel and would like to see all this conflict go away. The problem comes from a handful of Zionist thugs and Jewish businessmen who make money off the conflict and thus turn to bribing the US government to do what they want.
And this is the basic problem with the state that Matt and the rest will never understand: it ALWAYS works for the rich and powerful. It will NEVER work for the poor and downtrodden. That simply isn’t human nature.
But ignorant kids like Matt think somehow they can get the state to “do the right thing” if they just get the right guy in office – ignoring that it’s IMPOSSIBLE to “get the right guy in office” or for “the right guy” to do anything if he did get in office.
It’s as big a pipe dream as “Fortress Israel”.
You want to know what the solution is?
There is none. That is, there is no human solution. By definition.
Trash humans – that’s the solution.
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