Getting Closer to Nowhere
Ehud Olmert says that Israel is now “close” to achieving its goals in Gaza. Which is nice, except nobody’s ever been able to clarify what those goals are. As hard-core anti-semite Anthony Cordesman wrote the other day:
This raises a question that every Israeli and its supporters now needs to ask. What is the strategic purpose behind the present fighting? After two weeks of combat Olmert, Livni, and Barak have still not said a word that indicates that Israel will gain strategic or grand strategic benefits, or tactical benefits much larger than the gains it made from selectively striking key Hamas facilities early in the war. In fact, their silence raises haunting questions about whether they will repeat the same massive failures made by Israel’s top political leadership during the Israeli-Hezbollah War in 2006. Has Israel somehow blundered into a steadily escalating war without a clear strategic goal or at least one it can credibly achieve? Will Israel end in empowering an enemy in political terms that it defeated in tactical terms? Will Israel’s actions seriously damage the US position in the region, any hope of peace, as well as moderate Arab regimes and voices in the process?
To blunt, the answer so far seems to be yes. To paraphrase a comment about the British government’s management of the British Army in World War I, lions seem to be led by donkeys. If Israel has a credible ceasefire plan that could really secure Gaza, it is not apparent. If Israel has a plan that could credibly destroy and replace Hamas, it is not apparent. If Israel has any plan to help the Gazans and move them back towards peace, it is not apparent. If Israel has any plan to use US or other friendly influence productively, it not apparent.
I got that via the Jew-hater James Fallows. Of course it may seem unseemly to some for so many American writers to be sitting here safely on the far side of the oceans second-guessing Israeli decision-makers. And I sympathize with that. But one has to recall that we’ve involved ourselves intimately with the situation through our aid money and our diplomatic support for Israel at the UN over the years. Under the circumstances we have no choice but to second-guess when these kinds of things happen.
62 Responses to “Getting Closer to Nowhere”
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January 11th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Well, not really. As long as my share of our national debt is $35,000 yet my tax money goes to buy bombs for Israel, the least I get to do is question what Israel is doing.
January 11th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
You anti-semites and your questions.
January 11th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
So far, the most effective American anti-Semite in history seems to have been Bernard Madoff.
January 11th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
The goal is Genocide.
1. They have long said that they view the demographic realities in Israel and the occupied territories as a threat.
2. They will not state their goal. This means the goal is so shameful and criminal that they dare not express it.
3. They have evacute3d hundreds of civilians to select locations. This has the practical effect of lowering the Palestinian population.
Thats pretty clear. People like Matt, and Ezra Klein, and the rest of the corrupt punditocracy refuse to follow that chain to where it inevitably ends.
Given what Israel views as their primary problem, and given that the practical result of their actions is to ’solve’ this problem through genocide, put together with the fact that they refuse to vocalize the real reason why they are conducting this operations…
It’s the simplest answer. Everything else leaves issues unresolved. If they are just trying to boost their poll numbers, they would withdraw now. They wouldn’t keep killing people, and they wouldn’t be deliberately bombing ambulances, day care centers, and schools. If they were really trying to stop terrorism, they would be trying to improve the lives of the people in the Gaza strip and the West Bank. They would be trying to out compete Hamas in giving Palestinians a better life.
All that’s left is genocide. Everything else, all their other arguments, are meant for domestic and American consumption. It’s just bull shit meant to obscure their real goals.
January 11th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Err, 3. should be ‘They have evacuated palestinians to select location. They have then bombed those locations.
January 11th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
It might be more productive if Yglesias cut the ad hominem attacks and attempted to address the issues. It seems pretty clear that he is unable to do this since the attack on Gaza is apparently motivated by Barak’s unseemly quest to be elected Israeli PM. And what better way to do this than for Barak to pander to the Israeli public with the bloodied corpses of Palestinians?
January 11th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Their goal is probably one of the oldest in the book: making themselves feel better by getting revenge. This is not a strategic goal, but rather a short-term self-esteem boosting goal. For the politicians involved, of course, the strategic goal is to get reelected.
January 11th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
I have a friend who is an Israeli ex-pat. He used to get “if you have a problem with zionism, why are you here?”. He got sick of it enough that he moved to the U.S. and then he got “How dare you criticize us from America!”. It’s all bad faith bullshit and there is no reasoning with them.
January 11th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
I really am tired of this genocide nonsense. Killing 800 people may be a war crime but it’s not genocide. There were 450,000 Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip in 1968; there are 1.5 million now. The population has tripled under Israeli rule – if the Israelis intended genocide, then the Israelis are the most incompetent genocidaires in history. The people who call what’s going on “genocide” are equating Israelis to Nazis, and that really is anti-Semitism.
But as to the point of the war – the point of the war is to keep Netanyahu and Likud out of power, to maintain the Kadimah-Labor coalition, and to elect Livni Prime Minister. And in that it may be successful. See http://www.newsweek.com/id/178848
January 11th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
One of the goals is to destroy the smuggling tunnels into Gaza, no?
January 11th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
I think the use of the term “genocide” in the mass slaughter of Palestinian civilians is not a correct use of the term, but it’s not any sillier than the ravings about how tiny paramilitary groups like Hamas or Hizbullah threaten to destroy Israel, the fifth largest military on the planet, and a nuclear-armed nation.
January 11th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Is that really what gets you worked up about all this, Bloix? You look at this nightmare, and what gets you pissy is a theoretical anti-semite? You think you might have your priorities a little fucked up?
January 11th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Bloix,
Genocide or ruthlessly murdering innocent children to gain political advantage? I certainly will concede that the former is worse than the latter, but the latter is bad enough that the leaders of Israel certainly deserve (after trial and conviction) to be hanged by the neck until dead, dead, dead.
January 11th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
It’s not just our money and diplomatic support that allows Israel to go berserk, it our weapons. It does not go unnoticed around the world that the bullets and bombs are made in the USA. Perhaps if we stopped resupplying the Israelis they would be more careful about what they blow the fuck up.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
On the subject of goals, the latest editorial from Ha’aretz:
Some other analysis I’ve been reading suggests that one of the groups that may end up gaining in Gaza from the Israeli operation, besides the ‘Al Qa’ida’ style other militants, might very well be Hizbullah.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
The discussion about Israeli war aims partially misses the point: this war, and the Lebanon war, were no big deal for Israel in terms of costs and losses. You don’t need a big uncontestable war aim, or any coherent aims at all, for something that may be catastrophic for Gaza but is small beer for Israel’s military.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
What Israel is doing is wrong, but it is a far cry from genocide. Israel has had the Palestinians at their mercy since 1967, they’ve had many chances to commit genocide, and they haven’t done it, so i see no reason why they would start now.
Israel’s retaliation against Gaza is excessive, and immoral, but it isn’t genocide. And if anyone has the right to call them on it, it certainly isn’t the nation which carried out the bombing of Hiroshima. Anything the Israelis have done pales in comparison to that.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Gee, Israel is either committing mass murder or genocide. Killing 20,000 in two days by artillery fire, like Hafaz Assad did in Hama is mass murder. Killing 800 in 2 weeks is collateral damage. Israel should impose Hama Rules so that the Israel bashers here will really have something to whine about.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
SLC,
Becsuse some blog commentors have misrepresented Israel’s actions, 20,000 Palestinians should be slaughtered? Ok…
January 11th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
I enjoy a bit of good snark as much as anyone. But Matt, you should probably think twice about throwing around deadpan one-liners like “hardcore antisemite” and “Jew-hater”.
I know you’re joking, and most of your readers know you’re joking (though not all of them, judging by comment #6). And coming from a high-traffic blog like yours, people searching for Anthony Cordesman on Google are liable to end up seeing a straight-faced accusation that he’s a hardcore antisemite on the first page of hits.
I hate to play the concern troll, but you really should be careful about that sort of thing.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Because Israel’s previous war against Hezbollah went so badly, I suspect that Israel needs this opportunity against Hamas to test out new theories on how to effectively fight Hezbollah. The people in Gaza are just a bunch of crash-test dummies in preparation for the real battle to come.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Jim W: You totally miss the point. Israel needs to carry out “Hama Rules!” so that SLC can get excited — blog commenters are just a foil to help him get his hamarulez rocks off.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Thanks, LaFollette,
I kinda figured but it took me a minute, & yes MY should plaster such deadpan dynamite with “(NOT!)”s or something for the easily perplexed.
So my question is, who the heck is going to DO anything (from the US side) before Jan 20? Obviously not our lame duck. I’ve signed the J Street petition (supporting an immediate cease-fire), but their blog hasn’t been updated in the past few days… there was some mention of communication with Obama’s transition team.
Sigh — Congress is back, but they’re mostly so steeped in War Is Really Useful and Effective Especially Over “There” doctrine I don’t know if a big calling campaign would help, but seriously…
January 11th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Israel cannot seek total victory
over its enemies. It never could. Not in
1948, not in 1967 and not in 2009.
And it doesn’t need to.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
One objective was to win the election for what is I guess the center. Looks like it worked. I think they better keep a little body count going till the end of the month however. You can’t be too careful.
Here is a rare picture of the Gaza action as troops clean out a nest of terrorists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stroop_Report_-_Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising_06.jpg
January 11th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Because Israel’s previous war against Hezbollah went so badly, I suspect that Israel needs this opportunity against Hamas to test out new theories on how to effectively fight Hezbollah.
I doubt it. Hezbollah is a lot better armed and better trained than Hamas. Attacking an internment camp won’t prepare the IDF for a war against a professional guerilla army.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
For the various posters concerned about the use of the word “genocide”:
Who but the Israeli apologists gives a f**k?
January 11th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
If Israel has lost Jeffrey Goldberg it has lost the war:
January 11th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
“Ethnic cleansing” is a vile enough term.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
I have trouble describing what Israel is doing as a ‘genocide.’ What they are doing is so unique that there just isn’t a word for it yet. “Apartheid’ is accurate, but not complete. The policies of Israel are not intended to annihilate the Palestinians, they are intended to prevent the emergence of a viable Palestinian state. They want the Palestinians to be outside Israel, but they will never let them establish a functioning government of their own. And they want to make sure that Palestine is a series of disconnected mini-states. I can’t think of any reasonable parallel in history. We need a new word for what’s happening.
January 11th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
Careful, Matt, about that “anti-semitism” sarcasm.
Not everybody is up to speed hear about various punditster’s pronouncements on the Gaza travesty.
One of the biggest problems in bringing Israel to its senses, and/or making it accountable for its egregious expansionism, is that the US populace has been cowed into equating anti-zionism with anti-semitism. Nobody wants to be a bigot–or accused of being one by pro-Israel surrogates.
I will readily cop to being an anti-zionist in any company. That does not make me the least anti-semitic (and let us recall periodically that Arabs are also a Semitic people). I do, however, strongly question the premise that God promised the Jews their own theocracy at some point in the ancient millennia, and that therefore they have the sacred right to murder anyone who stands in the way of their territorial imperative.
In general, the principle that each religion has a divine right to it’s own national boundaries has not held up particularly well over the centuries, and thus far, the Israeli government has done little to demonstrate that they have much aptitude for breaking the precedent.
January 11th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Not specifying any clear goal is the wisest aspect of this operation. IDF has to inflict damage, “dismantle terrorist infrastructure”, and then be “forced” to a ceasefire.
The bright side is that there is a real chance that moderates will win elections in Israel, by proving that they are as batshit insane as the extremists who are to the right of Netanyahu inside Likud.
The words “in the long term, we are all dead” fit the situation too well for comfort.
As it is, Israeli policies have all hallmarks of being unsustainable, and it is hard to see how they can lead to any substantial damage — to Israel. Kind of like Bushian economic expansions predicated on Chinese buing more and more US bonds to keep our interest rates low, and debt-driven demand for their exports, high. It could not go forever, but there was no alternative? Or wasn’t it? If one kind of shit cannot happen (like Chinese stopping lending out of the sudden), some other kind of shit, hitherto unimaginable, will (like our own banks stopping lending out of the sudden).
January 11th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
I will readily cop to being an anti-zionist in any company. That does not make me the least anti-semitic (and let us recall periodically that Arabs are also a Semitic people). I do, however, strongly question the premise that God promised the Jews their own theocracy at some point in the ancient millennia, and that therefore they have the sacred right to murder anyone who stands in the way of their territorial imperative. In general, the principle that each religion has a divine right to it’s own national boundaries has not held up particularly well over the centuries, and thus far, the Israeli government has done little to demonstrate that they have much aptitude for breaking the precedent.
Teknozen,
I don’t think you’re really an anti-Zionist either, because you don’t seem to know what Zionism is. The things you oppose can be associated with Zionism, but they’re not endemic to it. I think you oppose some sort of especially racist and especially religious brand of Zionism. I assure you that someone can be Zionist while not believing in the divine right of anything or that they have the sacred right to kill people who get in their way. There are plenty of secular humanist Zionists out there.
As for the “Arabs are Semites too!” point, that’s true. But the meaning of the word “anti-Semite” does not include Arabs. I’m not saying we don’t need a word for the hatred of Arabic peoples or that Arabs don’t face their own discrimination, but the meaning of the word is the meaning of the word. I’m not sure what you are suggesting. That Arabs can’t be anti-Semitic just like Jews can’t be anti-Semitic? (Of course, Jews can be anti-Semitic as well.)
January 11th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Killing 20,000 in two days by artillery fire, like Hafaz Assad did in Hama is mass murder. Killing 800 in 2 weeks is collateral damage.
So, Jeffrey Dahmer, having killed merely 17 people during the period ‘87-’91, was merely a collateral damager?
January 11th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
As I have not sat in on Israeli cabinet ministers, although many here obviously have, I don’t know what Israel’s objectives are. However, I suspect most Israelis will consider these last two week successful if it puts a stop to the sizeable rocket attacks from Gaza on S’derot, and now cities as far away as Beer Sheva. I know that most of the commenters on this blog don’t consider those rockets important. I would suspect that many — surely most — Israelis do.
We don’t have to guess about Hamas objectives, however: destroy Isarel, exterminate Jews. All we must do is interview those Hamas leaders, easily available in Damascus, well out of harms way. It makes good rhetoric, but i find it difficult to believe that anyone here seriously thinks that Israel is out to commit genocide on “the Gazan people”. Pretty bad job of it — 800 deaths, half of them “millitants” in two weeks, with all that firepower.
Remember: Israel tried to return Gaza to Egypt when it returned the rest of the land it gained in the 67 war. Egypt was willing to sign a peace treaty, assuming it could reacquire Taba and stick Israel with Gaza. Clearly an imperfect result for Israel, but peace was more important. And they took the deal they could get.
What are Israel’s obectives: as always, peace. But that is awfully difficult to attain with a people who wish to exterminate all jews and destroy israel.
Oh yes…one other thing: it is interesting that after the terribly botched incursion, the much stronger and reinvigorated Hizballah have not seen fit to open a second front. (There were 3 rockets in northern israel but Hizballah immediately announced that they weren’t to blame, and there haven’t been more.) Syria — perhaps the next country to conclude a peace treaty with Israel — hasn’t desired to open a second front. Egypt and Jordan have maintained their peace treaties (althought he same folks who wish to exterminate the jews probably wish to assassinate the Egyption, Jordanian and Syrian leaders.) Even the palestinians on the West bank apparently aren’t overly anxious to mix it up with Israel again. These neighbors of Israel, apparently and for the moment, at least, have decided that War isn’t worth it. And if war isn’t worth it, one is left with the thought that perhaps peace is better.
Who knows? Gaza has paid dearly for those rockets. Is it possible that the ultimate goal of Isarel is to convince the Gazans that war isn’t worth it? That their small area of land could bloom (with lots of fruits and vegetables under green houses that won’t be destroyed this time), that a developed waterfront could become a playland attracting foreigners (and even Israelis — Israelis do go to Taba, after all) and they could live a normal life where their children and grandchildren won’t live in “camps”, as they have the last 60 years,where they can grow old without having to bury their martyrs, (that is, their sons and daughters)and that just might be better than war.
If they will it, peace is not a dream.
January 11th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
For the various posters concerned about the use of the word “genocide”:
Who but the Israeli apologists gives a f**k?
Serious people who would like to someday see peace in the Middle East, for one.
If what the Israelis are doing is not genocide, and the world proceeds as if it is, the world will be operating on a faulty assumption. Such an assumption could lead us to mishandle the situation. It would be similar to the Israelis assuming all the Palestinians are actively engaged in genocide – what would the Israelis do if they were operating under that assumption? We can already see what the Israelis do when they think that Hamas is actively engaging in genocide.
This may not seem to make that much of a difference to the Gaza family huddling in its basement, but regardless, in the real world it matters a lot. A lot of the problems in the Middle East start with people operating under mistaken assumptions. When someone calls “genocide” it makes the situation worse, because it adds yet another level of obfuscation, making it harder for the parties involved to see what’s really going on.
It’s really hard to enter into serious negotiations with people and make meaningful compromises if you think their sole goal is trying to kill you. The Middle East is the example par excellence of this.
January 11th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Richard, what I oppose vehemently is geo-centric political Zionism. If you’d, prefer call it “Israeli chauvinism,” or if you have a better word for a political philosophy based on the assertions of dead religious zealots, I’d be curious to know what it is. You seem awfully big on word definitions but rather short on dictionaries [many available online, you know]. “Anti-semitism” in common usage has erroneously become equated with “Anti-Judaism.” But no bid deal, really. Racism is racism and ask the Palestinian next door if ever feels discriminated against for being of Semitic origin.
The Bob Marley/Rasta Zion as utopian place of peace and freedom for all I believe I do understand rather better than the fanatical no-gud-niks running the government in Israel.
January 11th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Democratus writes:
As I have not sat in on Israeli cabinet ministers, although many here obviously have, I don’t know what Israel’s objectives are
I would have thought it to be the mark of a democracy that its leaders explain to its citizens precisely what their goals are when they lead their nation into war. I realise it is impolitic to confess that the primary goal in starting a war is to convince the electorate that you are capable of starting a war.
January 11th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
teknozen,
if you have a better word for a political philosophy based on the assertions of dead religious zealots
What I’m saying is that you’re tarring an awful lot of people with a really big brush. Do you think Ehud Olmert, Tzipi Livni, or Ehud Barak are particularly religious? Do you think they make the connection between Genesis and Joshua and what they’re doing in Gaza now? You think they believe they are acting in accord with some ancient prophecy, or that they are seeking some sort of theocracy?
Do you think that any of what you oppose (at least explicitly, in this thread) is a necessary part of political Zionism? Do you think that Zionism must either some super-racist theocratic movement or else a movement that is totally divorced from Palestine and refers to some mystical Rastafarian concept? All I’m saying is that Zionism is a pretty general term. It’s like saying you oppose America because you oppose racism. The two are not mutually dependent.
January 11th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
You seem awfully big on word definitions but rather short on dictionaries [many available online, you know]. “Anti-semitism” in common usage has erroneously become equated with “Anti-Judaism.” But no bid deal, really. Racism is racism and ask the Palestinian next door if ever feels discriminated against for being of Semitic origin.
Why erroneously? It’s not erroneous when the meaning of a word departs from its strict etymology. It’s the natural development of language. I have never seen anti-Semitism used to refer to Arabs, Ethiopians, or other Semitics peoples, except by people who are remarking that the term, does in fact, refer to Arabs as well. However, dictionary.com, my Bible, does seem to support you in that it mentions that some dictionaries to agree that the more inclusive definition is technically correct, so fine. If you wanted to use the term, though, you’d have to explain explicitly that you were referring to people besides Jews as well, so I’m not sure what you’d gain.
As for racism being racism, yep that’s true. I have a hard time believing, though, that the Israelis are bombing Gaza because they’re anti-Semitic. They probably don’t love Arabs though.
January 11th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
The war is in Gaza. The goal is in the West Bank. Attacking Hamas strengthens Hamas and radicalizes Palestinains in the West Bank. The result is that Fatah is weakened and discredited. The Palestinian Authority collapses. Israel then has no one to negotiate with about the West Bank settlements, so it keeps them, and justifies its action by pointing to how radical the Palestinians are . . . .
Mission accomplished.
For now.
January 11th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
“There are plenty of secular humanist Zionists out there.”
Actually, no, there are plenty of people, like M. J. Rosenberg, who call themselves “Zionists” because they believe Jews should have their own country and possibly even a Jewish state and who support Israel’s “right to exist”.
But those people really have no clue what Zionism was and is, or how it has been both radicalized into a religious and racist cult and simultaneously perverted into a path for fascist, imperialist power seekers. And all that happened before most of these current people were born.
Zionism started out in the late 19th century as some sort of idealistic, even small-S socialist, concept. But even then, some members recognized that Palestine was not empty and available for the Jews, and recognized that the desire to take over that land was doomed to failure.
By the time the Arabs realized what Zionism meant, in the 1930’s, and began resisting the Zionist invasion, Zionism has turned into a typical colonial adventure, where the native population was considered to be scum to be driven out in favor of the Jewish race.
By the late 1940’s, Zionism was identical to terrorism, with the Irgun and Haganah conducting Al Qaeda like terrorist strikes against both the Palestinians and the British, including the murder of civilians.
Having inherited a bunch of Jewish Resistance fighters against the Nazis, Zionism became Nazism as they adopted the tactics of the Nazis to achieve their goals.
President Truman was perfectly correct when he said, “”The Jews, I find, are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog. Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I’ve found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes.”
January 11th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Fostert:
The only parallel I can think of, in terms of subdividing things into non-viable states, is South Africa, with its process of Bantustanization (if Balkanization is a word, why not?). I don’t know whether I should take the parallel as being a good omen or a bad omen for Israel.
January 11th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Once again, for those who missed it, a perceptive point on Israel’s goals here:
Israel’s Wars of Forced Regime Change
by Helena Cobban
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cobban.php?articleid=14032
January 11th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
And again, how Israel didn’t care for a cease fire:
Israel Rejected Hamas Cease-Fire Offer in December
http://www.antiwar.com/porter/?articleid=14031
January 11th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
One could argue that the Gazan citizens knew Hamas and knew their policies, which were published (to destroy Israel) and voted them into power anyway. Ergo: the Gazans are getting exactly what they voted for: a government that is willing to start a war with Israel, and suffer the (significant) consequences.
Hello? Israel has a 50+ year history of retaliation. Has it ever been proportional? Never.
On the other hand, the Gazan’s alternative (incumbant party) ran a corrupt government that hadn’t done jack shyte for them except embezzle billions. They had two very bad choices to make, and it seems that all the peace loving politicians have been marginalized, corrupted, or killed off.
IMHO, the only solution is Korean: establish a demilitarized zone and tell them to live separately.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Our world has really devolved, or maybe not devolved at all. Most of the world hates and blames the Jewish people for everything. What would those of you who live in Southern California say if Mexico declared it would not stop bombing Southern California until all non-Mexicans were killed??? Then, everyday, Mexico rocketed bombs into the beautiful, wealthy cities in San Diego? Imagine this, day after day, with no world outcry. Imagine, whereever you live, that the State next to you sent in bombs with nails and missals into your town. Now for months, years, you have to live underground. Your children cannot sleep or go to school. Don’t tell me that describes the “Palenstian’s” plight. That describes Isreal. Now, let’s see…Isreal has allowed Christians and Muslims to live in its teeny tiny country. Oh, I wonder why none of you ask yourselves why the millions of Muslims who live in countries surrounding Isreal don’t invite the Palestinians to live there? Jeez, I wonder? The answer is because Hamas, and their death worshipphing kind, hate you as much as they hate Jews. They hate you, you dumb, ignorant people who say Isreal is at fault. Isreal has given up land. It has invited all nationalities to live within its borders. Can you say the same for the Countries surrounding Isreal?? NO. How many Countries in the Middle East would even allow Jews to live within their borders? The USA should crack down on immigration here, or we are going to be facing what Europe is facing. So wake up, or I pray you leave this Country and go live with Hamas and baby killers. They are the killers. Isreal is defending itself. Oh, by the way, do the Jews hide behind women and children? NO. The disgusting life loathing, Jewish haters do. How about each of you post a sign on your front lawn that states, “this house is unarmed.” If you own a gun, go turn it in. Have no self defense. Practice what you preach. Finally, why don’t you send your children to go and live among those people who support hiding their hateful elected leaders at your children’s school. If you believe they are right, you ought to go over there and support them with your lives and your families. Pick where you would rather live, Isreal, or Gaza-among Hamas leadership, bigots, and the folks who really want “ethnic cleansing”?
January 11th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000
ONE BILLION TWO HUNDRED MILLION or 20% of the world’s population.
They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
Literature:
1988 – Najib Mahfooz
Peace:
1978 – Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1994 – Yaser Arafat:
1990 – Elias James Corey
1999 – Ahmed Zewai
Economics: (zero)
Physics: (zero)
Medicine:
1960 – Peter Brian Medawar
1998 – Ferid Mourad
TOTAL: 7 SEVEN
______________________________________________________________________________
The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000 FOURTEEN MILLION
Or about 0.02% of the world’s population.
They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
Literature:
1910 – Paul Heyse
1927 – Henri Bergson
1958 – Boris Pasternak
1966 – Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 – Nelly Sachs
1976 – Saul Bellow
1978 – Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 – Elias Canetti
1987 – Joseph Brodsky
1991 – Nadine Gordimer World
Peace:
1911 – Alfred Fried
1911 – Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 – Rene Cassin
1973 – Henry Kissinger
1978 – Menachem Begin
1986 – Elie Wiesel
1! 994 – Shimon Peres
1994 – Yitzhak Rabin
Physics:
1905 – Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 – Henri Moissan
1907 – Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 – Gabriel Lippmann
1910 – Otto Wallach
1915 – Richard Willstaetter
1918 – Fritz Haber
1921 – Albert Einstein
1922 – Niels Bohr
1925 – James Franck
1925 – Gustav Hertz
1943 – Gustav Stern
1943 – George Charles de Hevesy
1944 – Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 – Felix Bloch
1954 – Max Born
1958 – Igor Tamm
1959 – Emilio Segre
1960 – Donald A. Glaser
1961 – Robert Hofstadter
1961 – Melvin Calvin
1962 – Lev Davidovich Landau
1962 – Max Ferdinand Perutz
1965 – Richard Phillips Feynman
1965 – Julian Schwinger
1969 – Murray Gell-Mann
1971 – Dennis Gabor
1972 – William Howard Stein
1973 – Brian David Josephson
1975 – Benjamin Mottleson
1976 – Bu! rton Richter
1977 – Ilya Prigogine
1978 – Arno Allan Penzias
1978 – Peter L Kapitza
1979 – Stephen Weinberg
1979 – Sheldon Glashow
1979 – Herbert Charle S Brown
1980 – Paul Berg
1980 – Walter Gilbert
1981 – Roald Hoffmann
1982 – Aaron Klug
1985 – Albert A. Hauptman
1985 – Jerome Karle
1986 – Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 – Robert Huber
1988 – Leon Lederman
1988 – Melvin Schwartz
1988 – Jack Steinberger
1989 – Sidney Altman
1990 – Jerome Friedman
1992 – Rudolph Marcus
1995 – Martin Perl
2000 – Alan J. Heeger
Economics:
1970 – Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 – Simon Kuznets
1972 – Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 – Leonid Kantorovich
1976 – Milton Friedman
1978 – Herbert A. Simon
1980 – Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 – Franco Modigliani
1987 – Robert M. Solow
1990 – Harry Markowitz
1990 – Merton Miller
1992 – Gary Becker
1993 – Robert Fogel
Medicine:
1908 ! – Eli e Metchnikoff
1908 – Paul Erlich
1914 – Robert Barany
1922 – Otto Meyerhof
1930 – Karl Landsteiner
1931 – Otto Warburg
1936 – Otto Loewi
1944 – Joseph Erlanger
1944 – Herbert Spencer Gasser
1945 – Ernst Boris Chain
1946 – Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 – Tadeus Reichstein
1952 – Selman Abra ham Waksman
1953 – Hans Krebs
1953 – Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 – Joshua Lederberg
1959 – Arthur Kornberg
1964 – Konrad Bloch
1965 – Francois Jacob
1965 – Andre Lwoff
1967 – George Wald
1968 – Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 – Salvador Luria
1970 – Julius Axelrod
1970 – Sir Bernard Katz
1972 – Gerald Maurice Edelman
1975 – Howard Martin Temin
1976 – Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 – Roselyn Sussman Yalow
1978 – Daniel Nathans
1980 – Baruj Benacerraf
1984 – Cesar Milstein
1985 – Michael Stuart Brown
1985 – Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 – Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
1988 – Gertrude Elion
198! 9 – H arold Varmus
1991 – Erwin Neher
1991 – Bert Sakmann
1993 – Richard J. Roberts
1993 – Phillip Sharp
1994 – Alfred Gilman
1995 – Edward B. Lewis
TOTAL: ONE HUNDRED & TWENTY NINE !
The Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims!
The Jews don’t hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics or blow themselves up in German restaurants. There is not a single Jew that has destroyed a church. There is not a single Jew that protests by killing people.
The Jews don’t traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.
Perhaps the world’s Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.
Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel ’s part, the following two sentences really say it all:
‘If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel’ -Benjamin Netanyahu
January 11th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
Physics Nobel Prize
1979 – Stephen Weinberg
1979 – Sheldon Glashow
1979 – Herbert Charle S Brown
Is Herbert Charle S Brown the alias Abdus Salam used when he visited the synagogue?
It is a shame all that Jewish wisdom and intelligence somehow evaded Israeli politicians.
“There is not a single Jew that has destroyed a church. There is not a single Jew that protests by killing people.”
I guess the people killing Palestinians these last few weeks must have been robots and not Jews.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:12 am
Thats right Matt, cause after all what else matters besides Israel’s strategic benefits. Go fuck yourself.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:41 am
Hmm…
That doesn’t sound like Richard Steven Hack….
January 12th, 2009 at 12:42 am
Richard Steven Hack,
Are you trying to put forth the racist argument that Jews have superior intellect or are somehow ubermenchen? Do you realize that this is one of the core components to Anti-Semitic ideology? Have you even considered other possible explanations for ethnic distribution of Nobel Prize winners? Or are you that convinced that the rest of the human species is somehow inadequate compared to the uber-Jew. I think if you look a little closer there are sociological reasons which relate to how antisemitism functioned in European society which resulted in a disproportionate number of Jews seeking sustainence through academia. This was certainly the case in the US through the 1950’s, and if you notice the time distribution of Jewish Nobel winners peaks in the 1970’s. What this indicates is that Jews became more integrated into Western societies and were comfortably able to take on professions outside of the academy.
To give you an idea as to how much has changed, when you look at the ethnic distribution of perfect scores on Mathematics Olympiads, its overwhelmingly dominated by students of East and South Asian descent.
http://www.unl.edu/amc/e-exams/e6-amc12/e6-1-12archive/2008-12a/spry_perfect/2008-HSperfect.shtml
The same is true of the ethnic makeup of students in the Physics and Math departments.
So whats your explanation, are Jews no longer as “Uber” as Chinese or Indians? It cant simply be a function of population size, because the relative population size of Jews to East Asians has remained fairly constant.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:15 am
“What would those of you who live in Southern California say if Mexico declared it would not stop bombing Southern California until all non-Mexicans were killed??? Then, everyday, Mexico rocketed bombs into the beautiful, wealthy cities in San Diego? Imagine this, day after day, with no world outcry. Imagine, whereever you live, that the State next to you sent in bombs with nails and missals into your town. Now for months, years, you have to live underground. Your children cannot sleep or go to school. Don’t tell me that describes the “Palenstian’s” plight. That describes Isreal”
how does this NOT describe Palestine? Truth be told, it describes both, but it doesn’t capture the unique circumstnace of the MIddle East. THere, its really a self-perpetuating cycle of violance. as RIchard said above, when Israel goes into a surrounding country to weed out these groups, they proove in the eyes of the citizens of those countries that they’d easily kill them to achieve their own ends. The citizens get enaged, vote in an anti-Israel government that is then targeted by Israel again.
“Now, let’s see…Isreal has allowed Christians and Muslims to live in its teeny tiny country. Oh, I wonder why none of you ask yourselves why the millions of Muslims who live in countries surrounding Isreal don’t invite the Palestinians to live there? Jeez, I wonder? The answer is because Hamas, and their death worshipphing kind, hate you as much as they hate Jews. They hate you, you dumb, ignorant people who say Isreal is at fault. Isreal has given up land. It has invited all nationalities to live within its borders”
Tjis is incredibly false. Israel gives full right immediantly ONLY to Jewish immigrants, and the multitudes of Muslim immigrants are kept in ghetto-like accomadations at the Israeli border. Just a note, the Muslims living there were there before Israel became a country, and their tribal land have been systemmaticly paved over since the land was handed over. and why should the Palestanians move from land that their forefathers lived on well before Israel was founded, did they just loose that right?
The USA should crack down on immigration here, or we are going to be facing what Europe is facing
And the post just reached its racism quota. that’s a great attitude, why don’t we just eject al Muslims from the US, freedom obliviously wasn’t meant for them.
“Isreal is defending itself”
Israeli civilian deaths-3
Palestanian civilian deaths-over 400
Defense?
“Pick where you would rather live, Isreal, or Gaza-among Hamas leadership, bigots, and the folks who really want “ethnic cleansing”?”
At this stage, neither leadership has prooven that they aren’ interested in ethnic cleansing.
“There is not a single Jew that has destroyed a church”
Just read an article about a mosque being bombed by Israeli artillery.
“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence”
…because there would be no more defense. there would still be a neighboring country ready to push its nationalist agenda on Arab countries (Israel), and there would still be a lot of hate. the soulution to the violence is not found in one side disarmerment, it takes a two sided peace and an internationally backed peace at that. these small wars will continue to flare up in a cycle because people in both countries fear one another. historically, fear has not brought about the best leaders (see Hitler). as long as one side poses a threat to the other, people like Hamas and Olmert will be re-elected, and the problems will start again.
Here’s hoping that peace will reign before more are slain :/
January 12th, 2009 at 1:16 am
jill, your mexico analogy sucks for any number of reasons, not least of which is that if the us treated mexico as treacherously as the israelis have from the very beginning treated the palestinians, scoffed at the u.n., lied about the 1967 war, practiced state terrorism and on and on and on, well, yeah, baby! viva la mexico! viva la revolution!
i used to think a jewish state was a reasonable proposition, that a bunch of people unwelcome virtually everywhere should have a place to go. however, the paranoid jingoism and habitual genocide on the part of the israeli government and military have lead me to the reluctant conclusion that we gave these guys plenty of chances, and in every instance, without exception they either defied all peace accords or lied outright or both. no longer do i believe these psychotically fearful bullies have any right to anything, so despicably have they demonstrated an utter lack of basic humanity. there is no longer any reason israel deserves to exist as a repugnantly bellicose religious nation, and if the u.s. congress were not such a bunch of yellowbellies terrified of losing the jewish vote (2%. right. just 2% of american voters) and pulled the plug on military handouts, israel as a jewish nation-state would indeed cease to exist.
THEN at long last, perhaps there might be the remote possibility of unitarily fair treatment for all peoples in the middle east.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:36 am
“It’s not just our money and diplomatic support that allows Israel to go berserk, it our weapons. It does not go unnoticed around the world that the bullets and bombs are made in the USA…”
On the other hand, “the world” doesn’t mind when Israel kills terrorists with its Israeli-made Merkava tanks. Similarly, the world hates Russia when Africans kill each other with AK-47s.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:04 am
Isn’t the domestic political strategy angle actually rather important?
Say the situation, from the perspective of Barak/Olmert was as follows.
Two choices:
1. Deal with Hamas rockets by doing nothing or making further concessions (e.g. closing more settlements), and see popularity dwindle and Likud win a strong mandate in parliamentary elections, leading to belligerent rhetoric and frequent use of military force likely including aggression against Iran and other policies that are very destructive in the long-run.
2. Take a hard-line and use military force against Hamas, increasing domestic popularity to the point that sustaining a Kadima/Labor government becomes possible. While additional damage is done to PA-Israeli relations and global opinion, post-military operation domestic popularity gives Olmert/Barak the domestic political breathing space to reinitiate the peace process in earnest, leading to a higher chance of piece in the near term.
When you include the domestic political calculus, choice #2 may unfortunately be the minimax decision in this situation.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Re Richard Steven Hack
Obviously, this comment was not posted by the ex-con bank robber we have come to know and appreciate. However, in all fairness, it should be pointed out that Abdus Salam, a Pakistani Muslim is a Nobel Prize winner in Physics.
I amn also curious as to the source of information that identified these folks as Jewish. I have to say that many of the names don’t sound very Jewish. I would also note that the list leaves out Claude Cohen-Tannouji, Wolfgang Pauli, Eugene Wigner, Hans Bethe, Robert Shrieffer, and Maria Goeppert-Mayer. It also neglected the chemists. Does the faux Mr. Hack have something against chemists?
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