Jan 26th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Best Guards in the East
Have I really not yet blogged on how ridiculous it is that Allen Iverson is an Eastern Conference All-Star starter? It’s ridiculous! Here’s some comparison cases:
These are three Eastern Conference guards who are scoring more efficiently than Iverson, grabbing more rebounds than Iverson, turning the ball over less than Iverson, and dishing out more assists than Iverson. Are we supposed to believe that defensive prowess is making up the difference? And this is hardly the result of an exhaustive search. And besides the guards who are better than Iverson on all four of these metrics, there are plenty of guards who are better on two or three.
82 Responses to “Best Guards in the East”
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January 26th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Let it go, man:
1. It’s an All Star game.
2. It’s the NBA.
3. Iverson’s wicked-fun to watch.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Calm down it is the NBA All Star game and the FANS get to vote on who the all stars are. Iverson is more fun to watch.
Yglesias why do you hate the democratic process.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Nice Petey baiting:-)
January 26th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
The All-Star game is for the fans, and the fans want The Answer, period.
As to guards, anyone who saw Rajon Rondo school Jameer Nelson and Devon Harris in the past week or so would stop talking about those two guys making the All Star team ahead of Rondo and Ray Allen.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
i think its time for you to let go of your Iverson hate.. youve made it clear. you.dont.like.him. but for real..its not like hes scoring 2pts a game and everyone else is orders of magnitude better..hes a lot of fun to watch play, its an allstar game in a league that is for entertainment.. who cares if there is another guard that gets .1 more rebounds a game than him (lol). pro sports is about being entertained.. thats why people pay for tickets. if stats are similar, ill go with the more enjoyable personality. were not watching accounting.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
I’m a lifelong Pistons fan and was a lifelong Iverson fan. I have to say, watching him every game I don’t remember what I liked about him before. He’s an above average player but nothing more.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
As a devoted Pistons fan and as a child of the AI era I couldn’t agree more. That said, do you really field an Eastern Conference All Star team without a Piston? Both Tayshaun Prince and Rip Hamilton are both comparatively unknown and their ability is not the kind easily articulated by statistical data, Wallace is old, Stuckey is young, etc.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Some non-guard props for Danny Granger. C’mon Matt, give it up.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
But Matt’s spell-checker dislikes all four of them.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Can we talk about this stupid idea that All-Stars should have to be on a winning team? This isn’t the damn MVP. There are 24 all-stars — obviously some of the 24 best players are going to be on losing teams.
In other words, C-Webb is right and Kenny Smith is wrong, but what else is new?
January 26th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
It is okay if the fans vote! This isn’t an All-NBA team. It’s an All-Star game that is a gift from the league to it’s fans.
And the fans do get some things right. Lord knows that if the stat junkies were picking the team, they wouldn’t pick Iverson, but they also wouldn’t pick Kevin Garnett, who might be the best player in the league, because his intangibles and leadership and defense are second to none. But if it was left to nerds like Yglesias, you’d have Chris Bosh or Danny Granger starting over KG, which would be ridiculous. But the fans know that KG is the fricking man.
The fan voting isn’t perfect, but all things considered, they got it mostly right this year. Yes, you could start Rondo or Devon Harris over AI if you wanted, but come on, is that what we really want to see? Me, I love to watch Iverson in the All Star game, he was built for this stuff.
Look, Vince Carter gets more votes than Paul Pierce just about every year, but has Vince ever been better than Pierce? Only if you’re a stat geek like Yglesias would you ever concede that.
Big Al Jefferson deserves making the team in the West, but probably won’t get it. Danny Granger definitely deserves to make the bench in the East, no question.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
that Rondo deserves to start ahead of Harris or Nelson.
Wow. I’m pretty surprised, Al. I tend to like PER as the One True Metric, and Harris has a much better PER (23+) than Rondo (18+) or Nelson (18+). However, I didn’t see Rondo school Harris, so maybe that accounts for difference in attitudes.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
The NBA needs contingency voting. I think then you would see Iverson edged out by Al Gore.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
In fact, stat geeks would be perfectly OK with KG in the all-star game.
I’m quite annoyed whenever someone asserts that I, as a stat fan, am somehow unable to the limitations of stats.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
has Vince ever been better than Pierce?
People forget how could Vince was his first few years in the league. Wasn’t he a shot from taking Toronto to the ECF his third year?
January 26th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
statistics, while interesting, are only a small part of what sports is about. get over it. Iverson is a legend.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Uh, Steve Francis was an all-star starter three times (2002, 2003, 2004). Three! If you’re looking for a credible ranking of greatness, try the All-NBA teams at the end of the season. For the All-Star Game, the fans are entitled to their animal spirits. And if Yi Jianlian had surpassed Garnett in votes, well, good for him!
January 26th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
its funny everytime people complain about who makes the all-star list, and how the use stats to discredit the voting in of a particular athlete. all-star games are just a fun game for fans to see all their favorite players at one time.. its like this for every sport and thats the whole reason these games were made in the first place; to give the fans their dream game. they arent around to have the statistically best players square up against each other.. how you you weight which stats were more important anyhow? its for the fans to pick who their favorite it, pretty simple. and they do. and then people and writers start complaining that player X scored .34 ppg less than player y who didnt get invited and how thats some atrocity we should figure out how to avoid..because lord knows that we cant have a fantasy game with no real meaning be stocked with players who scored a few half points per game less than someone the fans like more.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
one last thing.. it is called all-star. and being a “star” has more variables involved than statistics.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
I’ve begun to suspect that at some point in the past, Bubbachuck (Iverson’s original nickname) personally stole Matthew’s girlfriend, perhaps while at one of those crossover rough neighborhood/hipster bars the kids go to these days.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
I haven’t been interested in an NBA all star game in years. They should mix it up a little. Have a year where instead of East v. West, they have the under 6′8″ play the over 6′8″. I’d watch that.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
I’d argue that Greatest Active Player is just as valid an All-Star criterion as Player of the Half-Season. Just because they have a game every year doesn’t mean a player’s entire career shouldn’t count in the voting.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
1.) It’s the NBA, so who really cares?
2.) Having said that, there is nothing more tiresome than the obligitory “All-Star snubs” article/post. It’s an All-Star Game, for crissakes. If the fans want to see Iverson instead of some dude I’ve never heard of who happens to be having a better half-a-season, where’s the harm?
January 26th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
lol..if the all-star teams are to be filled by the statistically best players, why even have fans vote? the whole point is to staff a game with all the players that the league fans love. its a marketing game, not an award ceremony. the awards are at the end of the season and have nothing to do with fan votes.
you guys need to chill a bit and enjoy the entertainment aspect of the game.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
If he takes a spot from Moe Williams it will indeed be a miscarriage of justice.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Matt, here’s one Pistons fan who hasn’t watched a game since they traded Billups for “the Answer”.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
I’ve begun to suspect that at some point in the past, Bubbachuck (Iverson’s original nickname) personally stole Matthew’s girlfriend, perhaps while at one of those crossover rough neighborhood/hipster bars the kids go to these days.
I can’t imagine Matt dating a girl attractive enough for Iverson to care to steal her.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Include defense and durability – two things not considered by PER – in the question and it’s Pierce, no question.
Ray Allen has been the standout 2-guard in the East this season, with Vince Carter trailing and Joe Johnson (slumping) a distant third.
Point guard is harder, but I’d go with Jameer Nelson, then Rajon Rondo and Devin Harris. Mike Bibby deserves mention as well.
Frankly, Nelson/Rondo/Harris is close, although Rondo has dominated head-head matchups with the other two, his overall numbers are smaller (he plays with the big three, afterall).
January 26th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
PER sucks, by the way. If you want a catchall offensive metric, Dean Oliver’s O-rating is better and you can account for usage by looking at a player’s usage rate.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Let’s remember that the fans voted Yi Jianlian as the #3 forward in the East – would the people saying “the fans want to see him, so it’s OK” be making the same statement if Yi got a few thousand more voted and started ahead of Kevin Garnett?
Al, you missed an opportunity to stretch your imperialist legs and demonize those dim, milk-tainting Mongoloids who were the sole reason Yi got so many votes — but even so, the ASG is a space for whimsy, novelty, and hoopz fantasy, emphasis on the fan. In other words, what metric designed to accurately assess skillz would be crystallized in the middle of a season?
January 26th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Anyone who says that Paul Pierce has not played well this year is either an ignoramus or doesn’t watch the games and just looks at stats.
I mean, please. Get a clue.
As to taking Jameer Nelson ahead of Rondo, again, you must not watch the games. Rondo made Nelson look foolish last week. Foolish. Nelson raised up his scoring by making some meaningless baskets in garbage time. But of course, if you only look at the stats you wouldn’t know that….
January 26th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
It should be Rajon Rondo, hands-down
January 26th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
It is in the nature of being “fans” that we enjoy debating the relative idiocy of our fellow voters. Accordingly, I agree with Matt that AI on the all-star team is a joke. After watching him play at Georgetown, my impression of him has remained the same: a supremely athletic, but selfish, gunner. To watch him at a generously listed 5′11″ dunk over a 6′10″ dude was sick — so, ok, maybe at one time he deserved the honor, but at his age now, no more.
Also, after watching Rondo a few times this year, I’ll chime in that Boston got maybe the steal of the decade by picking him whenever they did in the mid-first round. Legit all-star, only getting better.
January 26th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Aside from 06-07, when the Celtics were holding him out due to “injury” and the presence of Durant and Oden in the upcoming draft class, Pierce had missed no more than 3 games a season since his second year. The 37 game difference is significant; its ~1/2 of a season.
Pierce was the anchor of the O’Brien squads that were consistently tops in the league in defense, and is (quelle coincidence!) the primary wing defender on the current squad, a historically great defense.
Pierce’s defense holds up remarkably well in career retrospect, given the number of disaster squads he’s been on (Pitino, Carroll, the Gerald Green all stars). Carter has also been on his share of bad and good teams, and he’s just not the same caliber of defender.
January 26th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Phoenix drafted Rondo and gave him to Boston for a pack of gum and Harold Miner’s expiring contract or some shit. But whatever, it’s not like the Suns have needed a solid backup for Nash or anything.
See also- Nate Robinson, Rudy Fernandez, Sergio Rodriguez.
January 26th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Has Phoenix been the worst-run good team in the league for the past 5 years? I think so. Granted, most of it is due to the cheap-ass owner, until Kerr came in with his own idiocy. But there must be smarter ways to be cheap.
January 26th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Well, this post almost fulfilled my request for a post called “By request: Rajon Rondo.”
I’ve seen all the Celtics games on TV for the last two years, and I’ve seen Rondo outplay every guard in the league. He’s doing it much more consistently this year. I’m not as worried about an All-Star position for him, because if he doesn’t get in now he’ll get in soon and for many years after. And he’s extremely exciting to watch. If you think you’d rather watch Iverson than Rondo, you haven’t been watching either this year.
But comparing this year’s Vince Carter to this year’s Paul Pierce? There is no comparison. They sat Vince down last time he played the Celts because he was beaten so badly. Four points and one assist in 26 minutes. And for Al to say that Paul Pierce hasn’t had a good year…
Pierce has carried the Celtics on his back this year when needed. As have Ray Allen, KG, and Rondo. That’s what everyone who doesn’t see the Celtics regularly just doesn’t seem to get. Stats just don’t work the same way on this team — everybody’s glory is subsumed into the mission of the whole team. So all year long we’ll read story after story about the Lakers and Cleveland and the Magic, and most of the stories you’ll see about the Celtics are rather grudging and resentful. Then, barring injury, the Celtics will win it all, if they can beat LeBron, which they can.
January 26th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
I’m not as worried about an All-Star position for him, because if he doesn’t get in now he’ll get in soon and for many years after.
Worried? Why would any Celtics fan be worried about Rondo’s not making the All-Star team? As far as I’m concerned it’s better for the team for Rondo to get some rest, and to avoid the non-trivial possibility of getting injured in a meaningless game. The snub moreover will only serve to motivate the kid. I’d personally be tickled pink if KG came down with “the flu” and had to sit this one out…
January 26th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Phoenix didn’t really draft Rondo. I mean, they did draft him, but only after they’d made a deal with the Celtics to sell them their pick. They only drafted Rondo because that’s who Ainge told them to draft. It’s not as if they would have drafted Rondo without having made a deal with the Celtics first.
As to the Vince vs Pierce thing, the idiot waving his stats around is just a fool. Put your stats back in your geek bag! Watch some games! Vince is the guy who quit on his team, Pierce is the guy that took 10 knives in the chest and then played 82 games for his team.
Rondo also made a fool of Steve Nash a few games back. Kid makes a fool of a lot of guys…
January 26th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
The Celtics’ stats are quite good this year, as they were last year. They’re not some magical team that wins without scoring, rebouding, passing or defending in statistically measurable ways.
As far as VC vs Pierce: it’s interesting because they’re pretty similar in overall value, although very different in tempermanent and skill sets. Carter peaked very early in his career. His prime was better than Pierce’s prime. But now? I think I’d give the edge to Pierce. If anything, though, Pierce became overrated last year. The Celtics won the title so some people started talking about Pierce as a Kobe or LeBron-type guy, which is ridiculous. Paul Pierce is one of the top SFs in the league, but he’s not one of the top players. I don’t think he’s any better than Caron Butler, for example. Danny Granger is pretty obviously better than Pierce right now, too.
January 26th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Yep, put away your stupid geek bag! Paul Pierce got stabbed in the chest, that makes him better than Vince Carter!
January 26th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
At least Pierce bleeds.
January 26th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Danny Granger and Caron Butler are better than Pierce?
Seriously, half you guys don’t watch the games…
And I love Danny Granger. But please…
January 26th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
I watch as many games as I can watch without losing my job or my wife. I was probably going to far in saying Granger is “obviously” better, but my point is, Pierce is more at a Granger or Butler level than a Kobe or LeBron level. He’s a tough guy, sure, but he just ain’t that good. KG is the elite, top-10 guy on the Celtics.
January 26th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
And I love Danny Granger. But please…
I love Granger, too. And maybe you could make a case that he’s better than the 30+ year old Paul Pierce. But you can’t say he’s obviously better than PP. It’s arguable. Not obvious.
January 26th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
The Celtics won the title so some people started talking about Pierce as a Kobe or LeBron-type guy, which is ridiculous.
It’s not ridiculous to put in the same category as a Kobe. Bryant may be marginally more talented than Pierce, to be sure. But Pierce is in the same ball park, and unfortunately for his reputation doesn’t play in LA.
Remember, the Celtics have a highly balanced team: heck, Garnett’s down to, like, 17 ppg. They don’t rely on any one player’s production, so Pierce simply can’t put up the scoring numbers that a Kobe does (Doc quite rightly won’t give him the minutes). But come crunch time, he got it done. Unlike Kobe. When Kobe wins one (without Shaq) let’s talk.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Anyone getting pizzed at a Pierce – to – Butler or Granger comparison is merely demonstrating their Boston-homerness. He’s a really good player, but so are a lot of players in the NBA, many of them languishing on bad or mediocre teams like D.C. or Indiana. Being the most kind to him, he’s the second option on a championship team — any championship-type team, mind you — but nowhere close to a first-option type player on a contending team.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Actually, he is the first option on a championship team and was, and would be, the first option on a contending team. This is a fact. Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett and Doc Rivers would tell you the same thing.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
But Pierce is in the same ball park, and unfortunately for his reputation doesn’t play in LA.
LeBron is a measurably better than Kobe, and Kobe is at least that much better than Pierce. Kobe’s still the best player on his own team.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
No. 55: puh-leeze. I can’t wait until we get Haywood and Arenas back, you BTown homer.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
You can have a championship-level team with Pierce as your top scorer (that’s what the Cs have now), but you couldn’t have a championship-level team with Pierce as your best player.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
unfortunately for his reputation doesn’t play in LA.
Right, he plays for that totally obscure franchise, the Boston Celtics.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
“Paul is right there with the other four or five 2-guards in the league… He’s right there with guys like Kobe (Bryant) and LeBron (James) — guys who are going to produce on the same, consistent level for you every night.”
January 26th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
“Now, was Paul Pierce better than Kobe in the Finals? Of course, he was better than everybody in the whole playoffs. Is he one of the top three or four players in the league right now, Paul Pierce? Of course he is. It’s hard to find a guy who can go inside and outside and also a guy who can put it on the floor, then make plays for other people. Yes, I think he’s right up there with Kobe, right up there with LeBron [James]. It’s hard to pick one of those three guys.”
January 26th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
“I always say, second to Kobe Bryant, [Paul Pierce] has some of the best footwork I’ve ever seen in a player,” James said. “I love going against the best.”
January 26th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
“There’s not a lot of players that have a well-rounded offensive game,” Bryant said. “What I mean by that, he’s got a good mid-range game, long ball, pull-up to the hoop, pull-up left, pull-up right. He has the whole package.
“Paul is one of my favorite players in the league.”
January 26th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
They sat Vince down last time he played the Celts because he was beaten so badly. Four points and one assist in 26 minutes. And for Al to say that Paul Pierce hasn’t had a good year…
And Pierce had all of 13 and 4. So it’s not like it was Pierce who was killing ‘em.
January 26th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
When Kobe wins one (without Shaq) let’s talk.
And when Pierce wins one without Garnett, let’s talk.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
I said: They sat Vince down last time he played the Celts because he was beaten so badly. Four points and one assist in 26 minutes.
So Al said: And Pierce had all of 13 and 4. So it’s not like it was Pierce who was killing ‘em
Sorry, Al, I meant the game before that, Jan. 14 in Boston, Carter scored 4 points in 26 minutes with a +/- of -24, while Pierce led all scorers with 22, in a 118-86 blowout, where KG was the only other Celtic who broke 20. Pierce hit 5 of 5 threes in the third quarter.
Three days later in New Jersey, Carter managed all of 5 points in 14 minutes before Lawrence Frank benched him and Harris for the second half because they were sucking so badly. Pierce had 13 points, tied for second-high on the Celtics after Ray Allen’s 25, in a 105-85 victory that wasn’t that close.
Which facts support my contention that Carter ain’t what he used to be while Pierce is more than he used to be. And my other contention that you can’t judge the individual Celtics by their stats.
I’m happy to stipulate that Pierce, on average and with significant exceptions, does not have the individual skills of LeBron or Kobe. But he’s not in some group below them either. He’s tougher and more clutch than most. And the Celtics at their best are playing a different game than the rest of the teams in the league, a team game offensively and defensively. I find that much more interesting to watch than the superstar game.
January 27th, 2009 at 12:03 am
LeBron is a measurably better than Kobe
LeBron is the better athlete, but Kobe is the better basketball player. Crabwalker shoots the three like Shaq shoots the free.
January 27th, 2009 at 2:38 am
This year, LeBron and Dwayne Wade are the two most dominant players out there. Kobe is just as good, but doesn’t need to take over games like they do because he’s got a lot more weapons surrounding him. Same with Paul Pierce, who like Kansachusetts said is just as tough and clutch as any of those guys. I’d include Brandon Roy along with those guys as well, if he were playing in New York City or L.A. he’d be getting serious MVP talk.
January 27th, 2009 at 4:48 am
I agree with The Foulness, BTW, that Rondo deserves to start ahead of Harris or Nelson.
January 27th, 2009 at 7:25 am
“However, I didn’t see Rondo school Harris, so maybe that accounts for difference in attitudes.”
Important Individual NBA Player Evaluation Principle Here
Rajon Rondo is playing with Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Ray Allen.
What are the implications of this?
Opposing teams can afford to devote very little attention to dealing with Rondo. This means that Rondo could “school Harris” even if he were an inferior player to Harris.
The NBA is not a one-on-one game. Playing with teammates who demand attention makes the game significantly easier for any player.
Extra credit: Evaluate any teammate of LeBron or Kobe if they were traded to Minnesota.
January 27th, 2009 at 7:35 am
Close Reading of Game Titles Principle Here
The name of the game is not the Best NBA Player Game. Neither is it the Most Valuable NBA Player Game.
Instead it is the NBA All-Star Game.
So who is an star?
Obviously, Iverson is a star, given the number of all-star votes he received, and given the amount of words Matt devotes to evaluating him.
More interestingly, we have two possible scenarios:
1) Danny Granger is a star rather than Rondo, since when you play Indiana, Granger the guy on the other team you love/hate watching.
2) Rajon Rondo is a star rather than Granger, since Boston plays on TV a lot during the season, will play a lot on TV during the playoffs, and Rondo is an important member of their team.
Choosing between those two scenarios is more difficult and subtle than many acknowledge.
January 27th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Of course, nobody in the real world needs to choose between Granger and Rondo, because they play different positions.
Now, choosing between Granger and Pierce, or Rondo and Harris or Nelson, those are your real choices.
January 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
“Of course, nobody in the real world needs to choose between Granger and Rondo, because they play different positions.”
Actually, the way coaches decide the all-star reserves involves two “wildcards” chosen without respect to position, so Rondo and Granger actually are in direct competition for a spot…
January 27th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
Not aware of having agreed with Petey before, but I think he’s right that Rondo does have an advantage playing with the Big Three. On the other hand, you can’t say the Big Three aren’t all that, and still maintain that Rondo gets an advantage from them.
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