Peretz: Arabs are Incapable of Civilization
It’s strange the kind of sentiments you see considered acceptable among liberal magazine editors-in-chief like TNR’s Martin Peretz:
Whether the Gaza Palestinians can ever have a truly civil society is another question, the answer to which — given the Arab societies that surround them — is probably ‘no.’
Okay then. In some ways, it’s good to see these sentiments laid out plainly. Disputes between a dominant and subordinate ethnic or religious group are hardly rare in the world. Kurds want independence from Iraq and from Turkey, but Turks and Arabs don’t want to give it to them. But the way these things normally go is that Turkey says Turkish-born Kurds are Turks. They’re citizens of Turkey and carry Turkish passports. This is unsatisfying to Turkey’s Kurdish population, who’s been mistreated in a variety of ways and has various grievances. But you can at least process what the Turkish view of the matter is. With the Palestinians it’s different. They’re not Israeli citizens with Israeli passports, but they’re not citizens of Palestine with Palestinian passports. They’re just a subordinate people. It’s a highly unorthodox situation.
And it’s one I imagine would be a good deal easier to maintain belief in the justice of if you’re able to back it up with some dehumanizing concepts about the inherent limits of Palestinians to go alongside your security rationales.
232 Responses to “Peretz: Arabs are Incapable of Civilization”
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December 30th, 2008 at 10:08 am
It’s sad to see Peretz’s goals align so closely with those of Hamas – both of them want more Palestinians killed. Hamas wants Israeli bombing because it swells their ranks, radicalizes the young, and drives hatred of Israel. For Peretz, as long as Hamas is in power he needs no excuses for war – it can be all bombing all the time. Peretz: objectively pro-Hamas.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:09 am
Awesome.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Peretz is so casual about being a monster. No qualms for him.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:10 am
I guess I would find this more damning if commentators like MY didn’t engage in the flip side of this — only assigning moral agency to the Israelis, and not to Hamas.
I’m not advocating Peretz’s position, but I think commentary that implies that rocket attacks are something Israelis should just kind of get used to doesn’t help either.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Well, do you have any counterexamples?
Can you name any Arab country that isn’t a ghastly shithole for those outside the privileged circle?
More than 22 countries and of them only Oman even approaches decency. Ever wonder why?
December 30th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Well said. The truly insane thing is that Mad Marty’s take on the situation is acceptable in major print publications and on the teevee… whereas the view you just expressed generally isn’t.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Martin Peretz is a character. This is a guy with such an incredible hair-trigger when it comes to perceiving anti-semitic racism that he claimed Lawrence Summers’ dismissal from Harvard was partially the result of “anti-Jew animus among the Harvard faculty,” – no, really – and yet he tosses off these slurs against Arabs without a second thought.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:19 am
quiz: what is wrong with this sentence?
It’s strange the kind of sentiments you see considered acceptable among liberal magazine editors-in-chief like TNR’s Martin Peretz:
“liberal” is a word I stopped using long ago for the New Republican.
also, it has been clear for a very very long time (see Alterman) that Marty is insane with regard to a particular topic.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:20 am
I have a vague recollection that Mr. Peretz has made this exact same argument before.
Of course, that may just be the vague blur of the early bush years when we were repeatedly informed that anyone of Arabic descent was genetically disposed to incivility and got what was comming to them.
Such an awesome era.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:21 am
I’m with Jim W. and Omri on this one. The vast majority of Arab nations seem to be kept from exploding only by oppressive governments, and places like Yemen, Egypt, and Arab Somalia and Sudan are a complete mess.
FMI, can anybody here speak to what the situation for the people is in places like Kuwait, Dubai, or Jordan?
December 30th, 2008 at 10:21 am
“commentary that implies that rocket attacks are something Israelis should just kind of get used to” is a bit of a straw man. It seems to me that what MY and other commentators are saying is not that the rocket attacks are OK but that Israel needs to respond to them in a way that is likely to result in some kind of desireable outcome.
50 years of experience with these kinds of bombing campaigns in Europe, Asia and in the Middle East has shown that they tend to increase morale and raise the level of resistance in the targets. The ideology of Hamas in particular thrives on the creation of new martyrs.
Given the history of occupation, blockade rocket and human bomb attacks, it’s clear that Hamas and Israel are at war with each other, and that a state of war makes the kind of attacks Israel are currently pursuing legitimate in at least some sense. But that doesn’t make them wise. Assuming supporters of Israel have some definition of success in mind, how does this strategy put them on a path to it?
December 30th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Can you name any Arab country that isn’t a ghastly shithole for those outside the privileged circle? More than 22 countries and of them only Oman even approaches decency. Ever wonder why?
Yes I have wondered, and I’m 100% sure the answer isn’t that Arabs are sub-humans who are incapable of decent government.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:25 am
LFC:
Please set your irony detector to the ‘ON’ position.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Of course, that may just be the vague blur of the early bush years when we were repeatedly informed that anyone of Arabic descent was genetically disposed to incivility and got what was comming to them.
Don’t worry, zed. Once the West deals them a really, really humiliating defeat in a Great Battle, they’ll all see the error of their ways, and want to be like us. Because if Victor David Hanson has learned anything from the study of history, it’s that humiliating defeat = desire to be friendly with the people who humiliated you.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Let me also add that in a decent society Marty Peretz would be as marginalized as David Duke or Jean-Marie Le Pen, or at least Howard Stern. That he is taken seriously in any version of polite society shows us something fairly shameful about US political culture.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Folks who go baying about “civilization,” the virtues of their own and someone else’s tragic lack of the stuff are almost always trying to obscure their own savagery. And that’s really the only word for what’s being done to Gaza. There are children in there, FFS. Marty and his fellow travelers need to make those innocents as subhuman as the Hamas jerks that popped up to fill the power vacuum that our governments created.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:34 am
“Can you name any Arab country that isn’t a ghastly shithole for those outside the privileged circle?”
If one is trying to compare Dubai or Kuwait to the Gaza Strip, that qualifier at the end is doing a hell of a lot of work.
By those standards, can you name any European country that wasn’t a ghastly shithole in the mid-Nineteenth Century for those outside the privileged circle? Or in any part of the world that wasn’t giving away 40-acre homesteads on unimproved land for virtually nothing?
Democratic civil society takes centuries to build from scratch. It’s worth keeping this in mind.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Edward, the mad shirt grinder: Yes, I’m also sure that the answer isn’t that Arabs are sub-human. But Arabs have Arab culture, and Arab culture contains ideas and norms that are not compatible with building a society that isn’t a ghastly shithole.
And only a fool would expect Gaza to be a magical exception to this trend.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Joe from Lowell:
well…. it worked for Japan. It worked for Germany. Arguably, it worked for Dixie.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Arab culture contains ideas and norms that are not compatible with building a society that isn’t a ghastly shithole.
You have no reason to believe this nonsense beyond your own prejudices. You’re simply wrong.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:41 am
LaFollette Progressive: as soon as you can come up with an excuse why wealthy Gulf oil sheikdoms treat their Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi construction workers worse than the worst of the 19th Century robber barons, you’ll have a point.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Can you name any Arab country that isn’t a ghastly shithole for those outside the privileged circle?
Omri, you can say just the same thing about sub-Saharan African countries too. If you want to say “African culture” is responsible for their problems, go ahead, but don’t be surprised if you’re called a bigot for it.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:44 am
neil: so you think culture is just some music and recipes for tabouli? Nothing in it that actually matters? (Like the obsession with honor, the honor killings, the tribalism, et cetera)
What color is the sky on your planet?
December 30th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Omri: No, it didn’t work for Dixie. What finally “worked” for Dixie is when the Roosevelt administration came in and spent gobs of federal dollars to develop the American South out of its utter third world sh*t hole area.
It wasn’t the defeat in the Civil War that made the South an integrated part of the nation, but the building of roads, of water systems, of educational systems, of jobs, of factories, of electrical systems, and the like. The contrast between 1960 and 1920 was a hell of a lot bigger than between 1850 and 1890.
But I’m sure that this contains no lessons whatsoever for any other part of the world since morons are completely free to jabber about Arab culture and whatnot.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Arab culture contains ideas and norms that are not compatible with building a society that isn’t a ghastly shithole.
I’m sorry, but this is an absurd sentence. Every culture — yes, including American culture — contains such “ideas and norms”. (Don’t tell me that America isn’t a ghastly shithole for millions, because it is.) I agree completely with spot check billy, above, about how the fact these ideas are even out there shows us something very rotten about our culture.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Apparently it makes you feel better to pretend that what you’re saying is so obvious that it doesn’t need to be justified in any way. This is understandable. I understand that there are some other forums where other people like you can reassure each other of the correctness of their prejudices.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Well, Matt Stevens, can you name an Arab country that is not a brutal, ghastly shithole?
December 30th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Edward, the mad shirt grinder : If you want to be willfully blind to differences of degree, that’s your prerogative. But if you want to have an actual point, care to point to an American honor killing? Or an American pouring acid on a girl for going to school? Or an American city that has Zabaleen?
December 30th, 2008 at 10:49 am
So LaFollette Progressive endorses Bush’s democracy project?
Just kiding, but Peretz is making a common anti-war argument. Arabs can’t handle democracy, why bother, let them be ruled by an iron fist.
Fact is the Middle East has long history of religious and ethnic and tribal conflict, was a colonial war zone, fucked up by Europeans, and then a Cold War war zone, which fucked it up more. (The West wiped out all of the communist parties which left only the religious parties. I’ve heard Israel and Mossad promoted Hamas to thwart Fatah originially. Good job. Well done.)
Then add oil which just props up dictators. The region is screwed up. So democracy may take a while even though anti-war people held Iraq to the standard that it should have democracy in a month.
As bad as the Saudis are they could be worse. They could be like Iran who threaten to wipe Israel off the map on a weekly basis. The Saudis just like to hold hands.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:52 am
TNR is a liberal magazine?
Since when?
December 30th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Anti-arab trolls are teh suck – they can’t even see that they’re being racist. It’s like the homophobes who are all “but I eat in gay homes” except they don’t even bother lying about knowing any actual brown people.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:54 am
Omri, you’re a bigot. 20 years ago people like you were saying that South Americans were incapable of democracy and civilization because they all lived in warlike dictatorships, and that Asians were incapable of democracy and civilization because they all lived in warlike dictatorships, and that Eastern Europeans were incapable of democracy and civilization because they all lived in warlike dictatorships, and that Africans were incapable of democracy and civilization because they all lived in warlike dictatorships. Now all these areas except Africa are more or less democratic. The cultural argument is pretty much always racist bunk used to smear people you don’t like.
BTW, there was at least one functioning democracy in the Arab world–the Hamas election was certified by all poll watchers as totally free and fair. So then Israel decided to overthrow the elected government and prop up Fatah instead. Now, a bigot could look at that and say that Jews are incapable of democracy. But that would be a lie.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:56 am
You can keep calling me a bigot, but that won’t change the fact that you still can’t name a single Arab country with a functioning civil society.
And yes, there was an election in Gaza. And they voted for the Nazis. But clearly Gaza is a paradise just waiting to come into existence.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Or an American pouring acid on a girl for going to school?
I don’t think this incident is substantially different in any way.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:57 am
spokeytown: I was just about to mention South / Central America of the 1970s as a similar example.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:58 am
And yes, there was an election in Gaza. And they voted for the Nazis. But clearly Gaza is a paradise just waiting to come into existence.
Interesting that you mention the Nazis. You know, Germany really did elect the Nazis, and not very long ago in historical terms. Would you say that German culture is incompatible with a functioning civil society?
December 30th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Note that Omri isn’t even asking for Arab countries that are flourishing democracies, simply ones that generally provide opportunity and a reasonable life for the majority of its citizens. And nobody has offered up even one example, just accusations of bigotry that are supposed to be self-evident. C’mon, guys. Tear his argument apart with examples.
Saudi Arabia most certainly does not qualify, despite its vast oil wealth. Syria is a mess. Iraq was a hell hole before we helped turn it into a different kind of hell hole. As I asked before, I would be interested if people know about the ground situation in Kuwait, Jordan, and Dubai.
And the point Omri is making is that if every one of these nations is a mess, with significantly lesser issues and greater resources than the Palestinians have, can we really expect a stable Palestine to arise under any circumstances? I’d say that’s a pretty good point, and certainly unassailed by any comments made so far.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Omri Says:
December 30th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Edward, the mad shirt grinder : If you want to be willfully blind to differences of degree, that’s your prerogative. But if you want to have an actual point, care to point to an American honor killing? Or an American pouring acid on a girl for going to school? Or an American city that has Zabaleen?
I’m sure he could point to an American homosexual being dragged down the street behind a truck. Or an American black being lynched. Or a Native American being raped.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Oh, but of course only Arabs would dare to use violence in support of their belief that a certain class of person shouldn’t be allowed to attend school.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Can someone please tell me the back story of the “Juicebox Mafia” term that right wing meanies throw at Matt, Spencer, and Spencer?
I’ve looked for the answer online, but nothing explanatory.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Omri,
Germany and Japan were already fully integrated into the world community, technologically advanced, parliamentary democracies before they turned militarist shortly before World War Two. Germany was not only already a part of western, European culture, but was arguable its center. Japan had been conscioiusly pursuing “westernization” for decades before the war.
And “Dixie” is another way of saying “one of two mainstream American political factions in the mid-19th century.” I don’t think any of your examples applies.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:03 am
I would say that Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, and the UAE are all pretty good places to live. Also Morocco and Jordan although they don’t have the oil wealth so income isn’t very high. But they all have very active civil societies. They have problems with trating their guest workers like crap, and they have governments with sketchy human rights records (although nothing like Syria or Saudi Arabia or whatever). But you could say the exact same thing about Israel or even the US. Our electoral systems are better than theirs, their safety nets are much better than ours. Their governments are much less warlike than either the US or Israel.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:04 am
ones that generally provide opportunity and a reasonable life for the majority of its citizens
This is a lot bigger deal than you’re making it sound like. This probably wouldn’t have included a single Latin American country 30 years ago; a single African country 50 years ago; a single European country 200 years ago. The United States of America has not even fit this description for all of the last 100 years. It’s nothing but a justification for racism to look at the current state of things and declare that they can never be any different.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Liberal “democracy” is, of course, deeply incompatible with Arab cultural norms. It is, of course, also incompatible with East-Slavic and Iberian-American cultural norms, which is why we are seeing the retreat of liberal “democracy” from Russia and South/Central America. And a very good thing it is, too.
Liberal “democracy” can never take root in most Arab or Muslim societies, without those societies ceasing to be Arab or Muslim in any meaningful sense. That is not a bad thing. What is a more important, and troubling question, is if Muslim societies will find themselves able to live in peace with Christians, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians and others. That would be a bad thing, if the answer turns out to be ‘no’. But the jury is still out on that question.
In general, the idea that all cultures, religions, lifestyles and ideas are equal is truly absurd.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:04 am
The ironic thing is that I actually named the one Arab country that isn’t a total cesspool.
The government of Oman is pretty enlightened. Foreigner workers are treated well there. There is somewhat of an open press. What they don’t have is democracy.
I named the one exception. But I’m the bigot here.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:06 am
“in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal “honor killings’; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Colombia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery.”
December 30th, 2008 at 11:07 am
I guess I would find this more damning if commentators like MY didn’t engage in the flip side of this — only assigning moral agency to the Israelis, and not to Hamas.
I guess I would find your ‘argument’ more damning if commentors like MY actually did what you say. I’m not sure exactly which commentors you mean, but let’s take a guess: liberal jews. And I haven’t read a single other liberal jewish blogger who didn’t assign moral agency to both sides. Furthermore, the argument implicit in your statement is that moral agency be assigned to *neither* side.
Stupidity can be charming, but the ‘clash of civ’-type of response to the current crisis in Israel – and every other one – is not. It’s just stupid.
well…. it worked for Japan. It worked for Germany. Arguably, it worked for Dixie.
It’s early still, but this latter comment wins the prize for the stupidest thing I’ve read today. Unless it’s satire.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Lebanon has a strong civil society, broad political rights, a pluralistic democracy, and an Arab populace.
Honor killings – though of wives, not daughters – were legal in numerous South American countries well into the 20th century.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:09 am
I don’t know that there’s an international definition standardized of “sh*t hole”. There is a Human Development Index used by the United Nations, and here are some of the nations listed in order of the UNHDI starting at country ranking #47 from the top:
# Uruguay
# Cuba
# Bahamas
# Costa Rica
# Mexico
# Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
# Oman
# Seychelles
# Saudi Arabia
# Bulgaria
# Trinidad and Tobago
# Panama
# Antigua and Barbuda
# Saint Kitts and Nevis
# Venezuela, Rep. Bov.
# Romania
# Malaysia
So you have Libya falling right under Mexico and above Panama, Venezuela, Bulgaria, and Romania.
Lebanon is also ranked above Peru & Colombia. Now, if you want to just declare any nation outside the top 10 as “sh*t holes”, then do so. And if you want to say “well would you want to live there,” that’s a different question.
Of course, Lebanon was doing a great deal better before it repeatedly got the sh*t blown out of it by Israel, but that’s their fault to for being next to Israel & Syria. They clearly should have picked a better location.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:10 am
UNHDI:
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
December 30th, 2008 at 11:10 am
So you’re saying it didn’t work for Germany?
December 30th, 2008 at 11:12 am
You’re taking seriously this thing when it ranks Lybia above Malaysia?
Oh, right, it’s from the UN, and the Magisterium of the UN is infallible.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Of course it didnt’ work for Germany. Germany had been a western, modern, relatively liberal society for centuries.
The defeat of the Nazis was a political event, but not much of a cultural one. Germany (and Japan) more or less went back to being what they were before the particular political parties that started the war came to power – that is, liberalizing, modern, integrated members of the modern world.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:13 am
It’s true, “Omri”’s gut surely knows more about the world than the UN.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:13 am
“as soon as you can come up with an excuse why wealthy Gulf oil sheikdoms treat their Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi construction workers worse than the worst of the 19th Century robber barons”
Omri, you pretty clearly don’t know a damned thing about the conditions in your own country in the Nineteenth Century, so I’m not sure why anyone ought to take your enlightened sociological analysis seriously. I also notice that you failed to name a European country that met your own standards for non-shithole status in the mid-Nineteenth Century. The Arab world has made some very obvious strides in the past few decades.
Now, if we can set aside your asinine rhetorical questions, demeaning generalizations and lack of historical perspective, and actually talk about the compatibility of traditional Arabic/Islamic culture with secular democracy… I would actually agree with you that this is the source of the problem and that it’s a very real hurdle for the Palestinians to overcome. It’s a small but important part of why the Iraq War was horrifyingly misguided, too. But using this as an excuse for Israel’s grotesque human rights record, via the White Man’s Burden mentality, is really quite pathetic.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:14 am
care to point to an American honor killing?
The case of the guy in the Santa suit shooting up and torching his ex-wife’s family’s house in Orange County doesn’t seem too far removed from an honor killing to me. There are enough examples of American men acting as if they owned their wives and reacting violently when their wives try to act like actual human beings to make me think that there isn’t too much difference between the US and other countries on that issue. After all, it was only very recently that US authorities started prosecuting domestic abuse.
Omri, I’m not going to defend honor killings (which, by the way, seem to occur in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which are a long ways away from Gaza). And if you want me to admit that there are terrible things that happen in Arab society I will admit that.
What I don’t understand is your insistence that these kinds of things somehow manifest a fixed and firm inability in Arabs (and apparently only in Arabs) to participate in civilization. You maintain this insistence despite the long history of Arab civilization (much of it during a time when Europe consisted largely of a few feudal nasties lording it over a bunch of serfs), the long history of Ottoman and European domination, and many other factors. And what really seals you as a bigot is your generalized description of all of the Arabs based upon admittedly brutal and nasty acts of some.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Clearly, objective development indicators are less important than nitwit Omri’s own impressions. We need to turn instead to the OHDI, which places nations into categories based on “Omni likes them” and “Omni thinks they’re sh*t holes”.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:19 am
El Cid: by that reckoning we should take seriously the US News annual college rankings.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:20 am
And yet, El Cid, you are still incapable of providing any reason why any Arab country should be regarded as anything but a shithole.
You know full well that is what they are. You know full well none of them have functioning civil societies. You just can’t stand to have this mentioned.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Really this kind of thing is good for another reason: people of good will are finally realizing that Israel must go. Peacefully if possible, violently if necessary, but the two state solution is dead, Israel must cease to exist as a state, and the western colonists occupying the area must be relocated.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:24 am
“So LaFollette Progressive endorses Bush’s democracy project? Just kiding, but Peretz is making a common anti-war argument. Arabs can’t handle democracy, why bother, let them be ruled by an iron fist.”
I’m sure a finely-honed critical mind like yours, Peter K., can appreciate that between the people who thought liberal democracy could spread like fairy dust in the wake of a little shock and awe, and the people who thought that Arabs are slobbering troglodytes who can’t govern themselves, there exists an entire spectrum of opinions held by those of us who are not complete and utter idiots.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Apparently Omri has never heard of Turkey, Egypt or Lebanon, any of which I would happily live in. For anyone who has actually studied history it is unsurprising that countries that were subject to colonial domination are less likely to be developed or fully functional democracies, cf most of Africa.
Anyway, all this is just a distraction from Peretz’s objectively pro-Hamas positions, which I presume Omri shares. So Omri, how does this lovely bombing campaign help the situation, or are you just happy the scary brown people are getting killed?
December 30th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Stop giving facts and numbers to poor Omri. It makes his brain hurt, and gets in the way of his ill-informed, provincial ranting.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Culture counts.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Turkey: not Arab.
Egypt: go have a chat with a Coptic garbage man in Cairo.
Lebanon: Hezbollah’s bitch.
Can you do better than that?
I can: Oman sucks less than all of them. It’s also an enlightened despotism, however.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Omri,
Some answers: Jordan. The king still has powers we would find unacceptable, perhaps, but, there is a parliament and a functioning civil society, so there’s an example. Oman would be another. Some of the Emirates would be yet another. Yemen has some functioning civil society, it just can’t keep its Islamists under control. Egypt has a functioning civil society. Lebanon is a pretty clear cut one, as mentioned repeatedly.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Doubtless I’m about to be called an appologist for terrorism, but I never fail to be amazed by the deilcate sensibilities of Peretz and his ilk when Hamas sends a few bottle-rockets over the wall into the Negev. How barbaric!
Israel blockaes the coast and dominates the airspace of the Palestinian Territories. These things are acts of war.
Israel steals land from Palestinians and imports violent zealots to live on it. The zealots get an occupying army to bully the natives, apartheid roads slicing through the counryside–roads you can’t travel if you’re of the incorrect race, and massive subsidies from “civilized” Israel proper.
Acts of war.
Palestinians are denied statehood, citizenship, the right to travel even within their own ancestral lands. They can try to build a house, but the Israelis will come knock it down for not having the correct permits. How easy you reckon it is for a Palestinian to get a permit?
Israel claims the right, whenever it sees fit, to launch military strikes against any target in Palestine, and kill any number of Palestinians in the process, because they see themselves as playing according to the Marquess of Queensbury’s rules or some such. They can obliterate the Gaza Airport, for instance, because they don’t like the look of the place.
But God forbid the Gazans set off a few bottle rockets! Marty Peretz is overcome with the vapours! Neocons are swooning!
Someone could get hurt!
(Maybe even a white person!)
December 30th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Yemen? You are dumb enough to mention Yemen?
Go talk to a Yemeni Jew.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:28 am
If a given Arab country is stable peaceful and developing well and reasonably OK on human rights, why should we care if it’s not a democracy?
December 30th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Craig, those “bottle rockets” can penetrate cinder block walls and spray shrapnel at the people on the other side. They have killed people, and are usually launched at 7:55AM to maximize the chance of them killing school children.
If you think this is a trifling matter, then you are one sick fuck who should be taken to Sderot and shackled to a schoolhouse gate.
And if you’re going to attribute the failure of the Palestinians to build a civil society to the Israeli occupation, what is your explanation for the rest of the Arab World, which is just as ghastly? 23 countries, all of them charnel houses. What is their excuse?
December 30th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Thanks El Cid for introducing the Human Development Index (HDI), the broadest and most objective measure of human development that we have, to bring some rationality to this discussion. There are numerous Arab states that qualify as “high human development”. Even non-oil Arab states like Lebanon and Jordan have improved markedly in human development under adverse conditions.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Omri, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you just didn’t see my post #44 with a list of Arab countries that aren’t shitholes.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:36 am
#44: I can’t take you seriously if you list Morocco. The Emirates are improving, but geez, go talk to the guest workers there before you get too effusive in your praise. And I find the comparison to Israel flat out offensive. Israeli bosses do not as a matter of industry norm, collect passports from their employees.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:37 am
I’ve given every reason to this little turd troll why many Arab countries are not “sh*t holes”, except for his declaration, by fiat, that they are and that forget your stupid numbers and whatnot they just are.
This is the sort of gigantically insensitive douchebaggery I’ve come to expect from the moronic foreign policy commentariat.
There are people really abused by and p*ssed off at their Libyan government. Yet there are a lot of Libyans who really love their country, and despite problems, love their families and their lives there.
But no, no, no, it’s not Sweden, so f*** ‘em, it’s a sh*t hole, all of it. F*** you, Lebanese, you’re a sh*t hole, your inferior culture sucks, f*** you.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:37 am
spokeytown, you’re apparently a generous soul (and you might even be right) but I think why oh why in #68 nailed it.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Um, civilization was born in Mesopotamia and Persia. The Jewish bible was cribbed from Persian writings (to simplify horribly — see Norman Cohn on this — Persia isn’t Arab, I know, I know, but to people like Peretz it is). Baghdad kept Western Civilization — books, science, poetry — alive during the dark ages in Europe.
Germany was pretty much a hell-hole until the 19th century because of religious wars. “Civilization had come late there — parts of it still practicing human sacrifice until 10th century or so. Prussia not even a country until eighteenth c.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Well, the best way to say “fuck you, Omri” would be to turn an Arab society for the better.
Want to really flip the bird at me? Go secure a decent life for Egypt’s Copts. That’ll really fuck up my perspective.
Go. Do it. Good luck. I wish you all the best. Won’t be holding my breath, though.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:40 am
By the way, my chances of survival in Sderot or Ashkelon would be likely much much better than that of a labor organizer in the Magdalena region of Colombia, or that of a policeman in Acapulco. And that’s without being on the border of an illegal occupation.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:42 am
“you are still incapable of providing any reason why any Arab country should be regarded as anything but a shithole.”
In between foreign invasions, Lebanon is generally much less of a shithole than the median member of the UN. The UAE is a robber baron paradise with a stunted civil society, but there is certainly a strong undercurrent of cultural liberalization there. You’d have a hard time claiming that Qatar lacks a flourishing independent media. Morocco has an appalling government, but its urban culture bears a closer resemblance to pre-EU Spain or Greece than it does to Saudi Arabia. And you’ve already pointed to Oman’s non-shitty elements.
The Arabic-speaking world has actually produced a fascinating variety of shitholes. You could take bits and pieces from several different countries and build a decent place to live that’s one color-revolution away from being a modern Westernized society. It’s probably just a matter of time, and it would certainly help if we didn’t keep trying to accelerate the process by dropping bombs on them and telling them it’s for their own good.
Of course, you could reproduce essentially your whole spiel and apply it to sub-Saharan Africa, but you probably wouldn’t do that in mixed company because it would make you sound like a racist. Which is precisely the point.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Morocco has an incredibly active civil society which is one of the things you have been accusing Arabs of being gentically incapable of. I already mentioned the guest worker problem but thanks for bringing it up again. FYI, until recently Palestinians frequently worked in Israel in low wage labor jobs (similar to illegal Mexicans in the US) and their papers were routinely confiscated by employers to keep them from settling in Israel. Now that Palestinians can’t enter into Israel, cheap labor is performed by Thais, Ghanaians, eastern Europeans, Indians, and so forth, and yes, their passports are routinely confiscated as well to prevent settling in Israel.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:43 am
No, I think the best way to say “F*** you Omri” is the most direct.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Its not even that it will take awhile. You may some great points about how they got there. When a situation gets so f’d up, we can’t expect for it to self correct itself. There is work here that would take decades to centuries to complete. People who clearly aren’t interested in anything other than dropping a nuke on the Middle East won’t bother to admit this, so instead resort to asking us if we can’t find Muslim equivalents to modern Western Society like that proves anything.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:47 am
And if you’re going to attribute the failure of the Palestinians to build a civil society to the Israeli occupation, what is your explanation for the rest of the Arab World, which is just as ghastly?
Are you saying living conditions for guest workers in Dubai are worse than the living conditions for Palestinians in the Gaza Strip? If so, you’re deluded. Look, no one is saying that the way Arab countries treat guest workers is good – but it’s on a level with the way the US treated migrant workers during the Great Depression. The way Israel treats the Palestinians is order of magnitude worse.
If you think this is a trifling matter, then you are one sick fuck who should be taken to Sderot and shackled to a schoolhouse gate.
Sderot is a tiny little village about half a mile from the Gaza border – it would cost something like 15 dollars for Israel to relocate the entire fucking village. This is where the argument breaks down – the equivalent would be the United States would bomb Toronto because someone in Alberta was launching rockets at Nowheresville, Idaho.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:48 am
The more I read this thread, the more I’m convinced Israel must go NOW. The world should band together to occupy Israel within the next two months and relocate the western colonists.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Um, voice of reason, fuck off. Two states, no genocide or collective punishment allowed from either.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
spokeytown, I said nothing about genetics. I spoke only of culture.
SS: So, your solution is ethnic cleansing. Nice.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
More please, Matt. It’s a target rich environment.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
One Arab country that is functioning with civility:
Baharain, where there have been recent free elections, where women have the right to vote and hold elected office, and the minority jews and christians have rights as well. The Fundy’s have recently won some power, and hence have put in place some idiotic laws, but that is democracy…although the liberals fanctions are fighting back….It’s not your western type society, but you are likely not going that in the Middle East ever!
December 30th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
For those of you actually interested in pushing for peace in Gaza, a petition from J Street Here
December 30th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Hey, I didn’t know Al’s last name was Omri. Weird.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
In some ways, what one would hope from a guy who purchased a once-proud publication like The New Republic is that, to the extent he had personal obsessions, he would subordinate them to the large of goal of turning out a quality editorial product.
I’m not old enough to know whether Marty Peretz was able to do that during the 1970s and 1980s. But it’s clear to me that in the 1990s and 2000s, his personal obsessions basically drive the way TNR approaches Mideast policy and even other issues.
Also, it’s certainly the case when I read David Brooks and Tom Friedman that I usually say to myself, who are these guys and why does anyone pay them any mind. But they’ve both worked their way up the ladder to land at the NYTimes, I guess.
What has Marty Peretz done? He married into wealth, and bought himself a magazine, and now he gave himself a blog at that magazine.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
ROTFL. No racists on this thread.
I dunno. I have to wonder though. Are Americans capable of Democracy? True democracy?
I mean, think about it. Jim Crow laws throughout the 19th and early 20th century legally and violently disenfranchised millions of Americans. Can we really say, between 1880 and 1960 that the United States had a genuine free and fair election when substantial populations in many states had their rightful votes stolen from them? What about the alleged fraud of Kennedy’s election? The October Surprise fraud of the 1980 election. Bush’s questionable elections of 2000 and 2004. The overall corruption of the political system by lobbyists and campaign finance money. Can the United States really claim to be a democracy.
I dunno. If you ask me, because of inherent cultural defects, its a corrupt shithole and likely to stay that way.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Great observation Matt. Its also worth pointing out that Peretz is not alone in championing the ideology of Arabs being untermenchen. This is a core part of Zionism and more generally its a key aspect of colonialist thinking. Take J-Street, the primary goal of the organization is to address the “demographic threat” posed by Israel maintaining an apartheid situation in the Occupied Territories (OT). Namely that the Palestinians may shortly abandon their quest for a state in the OT and seek equal rights in a single state, ala South Africa. Thus threatening the “survival of Israel as a Jewish democratic state”, which is demographically the same as declaring the US a democratic state for white people as opposed to a state of its citizens. Its all the same thinking, the difference between Marty Peretz and J-Street is that Peretz is up front about his racism.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Omri, I’m impressed. Not only are you a complete ignorant douchetard when it comes to the Middle East, you know nothing about Malaysian politics either.
In all seriousness, this points to how ridiculous it is trying to ‘argue’ with people like Omri and Peretz is. They’ve decided Arabs are subhuman, it’s just that simple, and if you try to prove otherwise, they’ll just move the goalposts to prove their point. Find an honor killing in the States? Oooh, what about guest workers, then! It’s like trying to pin down Jello.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Omni, you idiot, you didn’t address MY point: What you’re saying about Arab nations, you could say about any sub-Saharan African country (with Botswana as the only exception out of dozens). But it’s silly to talk about a “sub-Saharan African” culture.
What’s the point, though, if we’re arguing over meaningless terms like “cesspool”? You’re just a worthless bigot, not adding anything of value around here.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for calling out Marty Peretz’s bigotry. It’s totally reprehensible. Shameful that it gets published in a major newsmagazine, as others have said.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Obama said in the last debate, that’s why we need to do more than end a war – we need to end the mindset that got us into war.
I can’t read TNR without thinking that this is the mindset that got us into war.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
I’m guessing that Omri and LFC cheered on the apartheid government in South Africa, and saying that it proves something about the capacity of black Africans to rule themselves. Perhaps they think that now.
Eventually, they’ll be dead, and a generation in Israel will make judgements that aren’t born from the gut racism which is no less a cultural deficiency than the ones Omri and his pals sputter about.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
The case of the guy in the Santa suit shooting up and torching his ex-wife’s family’s house in Orange County
Just a nitpick, but Bruce Pardo shot people in Covina, shot himself in Sylmar, lived in Montrose, and seemed to have plans for his ex-wife’s attorney in Glendale, all of which are in Los Angeles County.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
The UN Human Development makes an important point. It mis certainly possible to create a happy, well-functioning Arab society with an enviable standard of living. Libya is one*, so (to some extent) is Syria. Such a society, howver, will assuredly not be a liberal democracy. And I see no reason why it should be.
*Qaddafi has, of course, been responsible for a lot of evil in the form of international terrorism: judged in strictly _domestic_ terms, however, he has been quite a good leader, and Libyans today enjoy in many ways a First World standard of living.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
But it’s clear to me that in the 1990s and 2000s, his personal obsessions basically drive the way TNR approaches Mideast policy and even other issues.
Aw, c’mon, you don’t think the Lieberman endorsement was a mainly a function of his glittering rhetorical skills and energy policy?
December 30th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
The U.S. is rapidly becoming a shith*le and you can bet all those homeless bums and their offspring will be ineligible for civil society.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Wow. You people can go on for comment after comment with your name calling, but you still can’t offer a single shred of evidence that Peretz is wrong, and that Gaza would form a civil society.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Hector: sure. Khadaffi has formed a well functioning Lybian society. Right after he rendered it Jew-free…
December 30th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
OMRI: Racism makes you stupid.
You said: “Hector: sure. Khadaffi has formed a well functioning Lybian society. Right after he rendered it Jew-free…’
So Libya became a “well-functioning society” AFTER it chased out its Jews? I have never heard anyone make that causal connection before.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
<emWow. You people can go on for comment after comment with your name calling, but you still can’t offer a single shred of evidence that Peretz is wrong, and that Gaza would form a civil society.
It’s a simple question, and the answer to it is another question:
What was Gaza like before ‘67? I don’t know the answer to that, but the West Bank was pretty well off prior to the six day war – it was the more prosperous and more educated half of Jordan at the time, with a standard of living not far off from what Israel’s was at the time.
More importantly, please provide a definition of what you define as a “civil society” – your standards are ambiguous and revolving.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Just a nitpick, but Bruce Pardo shot people in Covina, shot himself in Sylmar, lived in Montrose, and seemed to have plans for his ex-wife’s attorney in Glendale, all of which are in Los Angeles County
Sorry about that. Correction noted.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Omri is useful because he shows racist, colonialist thinking in the raw, without the fig leaf of justification. Arabs are inferior, Arab societies are all shitholes, hence further oppression of Arabs is justified, because Arabs are inferior, QED. Evidence? Because I say so. I’ll bet he’s never even set foot in the societies he talks about and exists on a nonstop diet of propaganda from Zionist organizations like MEMRI that feeds his predjudices.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Omri, who’s paying you to do this? I mean, it’s a lot of effort, and you’re impervious to data. You cite lack of a perfect society (coptic garbage collector), and the oppression of minorities as a way of dismissing every argument (though curiously this doesn’t make Israel hopelessly uncivilized). You ignore every rating system. Then you claim no one has even made an arguement, pretending to have dismissed them when you haven’t even addressed them. I hope you’re getting paid well.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Omri,
Don’t be a dumbass. Qaddafi didn’t assume power in 1969. The vast majority of Libyan Jews had left Libya before then, and the Jweish population in 1968 was down to 100. Libya has been an anti-Semitic place for quite some time, but you can’t blame that on Qaddafi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Libya
December 30th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
No one on Earth save perhaps Joseph Lieberman has done more to make me anti-semitic than M. Peretz.
December 30th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Omri, you can say just the same thing about sub-Saharan African countries too. If you want to say “African culture” is responsible for their problems, go ahead, but don’t be surprised if you’re called a bigot for it.
Of course, you could reproduce essentially your whole spiel and apply it to sub-Saharan Africa, but you probably wouldn’t do that in mixed company because it would make you sound like a racist. Which is precisely the point.
Omni, you idiot, you didn’t address MY point: What you’re saying about Arab nations, you could say about any sub-Saharan African country (with Botswana as the only exception out of dozens). But it’s silly to talk about a “sub-Saharan African” culture.
That’s a very good point. Sub-Saharan African countries are mostly shitholes, but that obviously cannot have anything to do with the culture(s) or people(s) who live there. I mean, if it did, that would be racist, and racism is bad, and anything that is bad must be false, ergo the state of sub-Saharan Africa must be unrelated to the peoples and cultures of the region.
And because it is unacceptable to think that about Africans, it must also be unacceptable to think that about Arabs.
The real reason must have something to do with white racism and colonialism, because the white man is the source of all evil in the world.
December 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
I’m reminded of an interview with an American soldier in which he talked about what a “shit*hole” the town he was stationed in was. He said his American town was really small, but at least it at a Hardee’s at one end, and a McDonald’s on the other end.
December 30th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Omri and Marty: waiting in hope for the day when it’s not unseemly to talk of a final solution.
(And if we’re going to play comparative government here, the culture of corruption and kickbacks in Israeli politics makes Illinois look like Disneyland. Of course, extrapolating that to make assumptions about “Jewish culture” would just be bigotry.)
December 30th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Shorter Glaivester: “oh woe is me, and other oppressed nigger-haters”.
December 30th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Omri (and people like him) is why sane people of good will want Israel to go the way of Carthage.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
To Matt, Ezra, MJ and lots of other respectful Jewish journalists: I am sorry to say this but racism in your religion is institutionalized.
When you believe you are the chosen one; when you believe you are better than anyone else; when you believe your blood is worth more than 1000 Arabs; you are nothing but a group of despicable racists.
Marty Perez is just a product of these racist teachings of Torah, Talmud, etc. that give you permission to engage in acts of violence against non Jews.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Well Glaivester, I’m glad you’re at least honest about it.
Still, you missed my second point: It’s silly to talk of a “sub-Saharan African culture.” They don’t have a culture (or a language or a religion) in common. In fact, the only things they do have in common are poverty, race and similar experiences with European colonialism. If I was looking for explanations I’d look there. “Culture,” as you’re using it, is nothing but undefined teleological BS.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Farid,
At least the founders of the Jewish religion did not like to
f— nine year olds, unlike the founder of another religion popular in the Middle East.
I’m not aware that the Jewish religion teaches any of the things that you state, by the way.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Bullshit Hector.
Racism is completely institutionalized in Judaism. Seriously what percentage of Jews are really against Israel’s genocidal behavior? less than 2%?
Stay on the topic or shut the fuck Hector.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Farid, you’re an embarrassment to your own cause (if the Palestinians are your own cause, and you aren’t faking it). The more sensible ones know to distinguish hatred of Israel from hatred of the Jews. Jew-haters like yourself just make everything worse.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
I tell it as it is Matt. I don’t have hatred; I simply state the facts. You don’t like it move on.
Jews ARE RACISTS. It’s part of the judaism teachings. Go to any synagogue, read Talmud or hang with a few of them. How could you not be a racist bunch if you considered yourselves the Chosen Ones?
Like I said less than 2% of them might disagree with the criminals in Tel Aviv.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Farid,
The state of Israel was founded by secular, progressive Jews, not by religious Orthodox Jews. And given the way that other Muslim countries have treated their religious minorities (and sometimes their fellow Muslims), the record of Israel with regards to the Palestinians is nothing particularly out of the ordinary.
The fact that your religion is gravely deficient is your own fault, not the fault of the Jews. And as for racism, it’s interesting that it was Muslim countries that were the last ones to abolish slavery of black people.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Listen to Farid, waving the sword of submission. How charming!
See. He can delegitimize a religion (something which, in most cases, has been subjected to change and reformation), but to criticize a culture is verboten here and tantamount to criticizing something assumed to be rooted in biology.
So when will we be prevented from criticizing American culture?
The Democrats are reverting to their shameful roots here. They are so afraid of they racism with which they once made common cause that they see it in everything.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
“The fact that your religion is gravely deficient is your own fault,”
My religion? see Israeli supporter, just like yourself, are by definition stupid. How do you know my religion? I am an atheist dickwad!
Not all Palestinian supporters are moslems you stupid retard.
And no no secular Jews founded Israel. Israel was illegally founded by explusion of Palestinians from their land with a claim that some fucking asshole in their holy book promised them the land.
Flying spagetti monster holy book, gives me the permission to bang your wife and your daughter at the same time. Make sure they’re ready for my New Year’s Eve bash.
Fucktard!
December 30th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Oh look who’s here the “U.N. Observer” how much were you paid today by American Jews to look away while IDF kills Palestinian children?
are you paid per dead body or hourly?
December 30th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
For the record, there’s a sense of spiritual superiority to some degree or another in pretty much every Abrahamic faith. However, all of them, to my knowledge, allow for conversions into them. How this translates into biological notions of superiority/inferiority is anyone’s guess, however.
But I’ve got my guess: It’s a way to shut down debate about topics that can be approached carefully and respectfully but should still be open to thoughtful discussion, including criticism. People really should do a better job of separating out political goal from a simple exchange of ideas. Politicizing thought is downright dumb, especially when there is no insinuation of hatred in those thoughts. Ahhh, but that’s a different matter.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Try to think criticially and respond to what’s stated, Farid. Just because you are accustomed to not doing this doesn’t mean that other cultures want to emulate that deficiency. Hence, the thread.
When one feels threatened despite any threats, and responds with personal attacks, I take that as a sign of feelings of inferiority on their part – feelings for which they are responsible, not I.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Farid,
I’m not a supporter of Israel, you moron. I support its right to exist, and to maintain itself as a Jewish State, but I think they should give the West Bank and Gaza back to the Palestinians.
They won’t do that, however, as long as barbarians like you are the ruling faction among the Palestinians.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Does anyone realize Matt’s equivocation here? Saying “Arabs are incapable of civilization” is taking Peretz’s remarks out of context, just like he did yesterday with “Message: Don’t fuck with the Jews”.
Matt’s argument makes no sense. He says Peretz is wrong for saying that Arabs can’t produce a civil society in Gaza, but then recognizes himself that Gazans belong to no state, and cannot be compared to Kurds and the like, because they have no passport etc., no markers of civil society.
Doesn’t that demonstrate the validity of Peretz’s argument? Honestly, Matt, if you wanted to challenge his point you shouldn’t be supporting it with evidence showing how truly incapable of forming a government and establishing the rule of law the people of Gaza are.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Secular Jews did indeed found Israel. They did this because, like the Japanese, like the Tibetans, they constitute an ethnicity that happens to have its own religion. Ethnicity, in the majority of examples around the globe, basically forms the basis for the modern nation state. Japan is no more a Shinto state and a hypothetically sovereign Tibet would be no more a Tibetan Buddhist state than Israel is a religious Jewish state.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Hector,
Jewish state why? I am of an Aryan race is it okay for me to establish an Aryan based state and expel all non Whites?
Isn’t it the same thing Nazi Germany tried to pull off in the last century?
Were you born retarded or you had to pay for it Hector?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Folks,
Israel was created by forcing millions of Palestinians out their land because some asswipe cocksucker promised that land for them in their version of Harry Potter called Talmud.
So if you believe Israel has any right to that land you are nothing but a self delusional doofus.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
The states of Scandinavia… are they Lutheran states? Is England an Anglican state? Why should the Jews have to force this kind of backlash characteristic of solipsistic chauvinism simply for not having gone out on the prosetylizing and forced conversion sprees that their other, more ambitious, universalist sister faiths did? That would just be silly.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
U.N. Observer
You didn’t respond to my question: do you get paid per dead Palestinian body or you are paid hourly.
How’s AIPAC’s pay rate?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Obviously you are quite uncomfortable with your entire ranting argument falling apart, Farid (which isn’t receiving support even among your supporters. Learn from them.)
How much is ARAMCO paying you?
Just as stupid a deflection. See, I can play your stupid game too.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Farid – Racism in Judaism is institutionalized….
Hector – At least the founders of Judaism didnt f#ck 9 year olds…
First, Farid racism and discrimination is institutionalized in most religions, I would actually go further and say that it is actually the organizing principle behind most religions. Second, you might be correct Hector in pointing out that the founders of Judaism didnt fuck 9 year olds. But I know for certain that they committed incest, as demonstrated by Lot having sex with his daughters following the genocide in Sodom and Gomorrah. But I do not see how either of these statements are relevant to anything, you guys are just clowns.
Finally, Matt Stevens, saying that a person is an embarrassment to their cause assumes that people should have prescribed behaviors based on who they are purportedly advocating for. This idea is really problematic and its where notions like the ‘noble savage’ derive. There is nothing romantic either in people struggling against oppression or in their supposed supports. The point is that people are people, and you dont have to look far in any society to find a bigot.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
I am not the one supporting genocide you are though – the sadly named “U.N. Observer”.
Yeah and I am impressed with your critically thinking skills. How’s that AIPAC financed home coming?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
U.N. Observer,
England is (or should be) an Anglican State, and Scandinavian states should be Lutheran states, and Israel has every right to be a religious Jewish state if they so choose. However, since I’m not a Jew I am not going to tell the Israelis how to run their religious affairs. I don’t have a problem with the concept of a religious Jewish state however.
Of course, that isn’t the real reason why Israel was founded. In response to Farid’s question, a constitiutively Jewish state was founded because the world is full of people like Farid, who tend to like killing Jews unless they happen to be strong enough to defend themselves.
The Old Testament may have its flaws but at least, unlike Farid’s holy book, it wasn’t written by an epileptic, maniac camel driver who liked to rape nine year old girls.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Salviati
I was showing restraint in not bringing up incest and inbred marriages that produce mongoloids.
An no in no monotheistic religion except Judaism, folks called themselves the Chosen Ones.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Remind me, what have I said in support of any form of genocide?
How does one say “ad hominem” in a way that Farid understands?
The silence of your more relevant peers suggests that they understand the futility of your idea and that if more engaged forms of outreach haven’t been made to get you to understand why, then they can’t be at this point. Though I’m off for now. Have fun demonizing your enemy, whoever that is.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
“I don’t have a problem with the concept of a religious Jewish state however.”
We don’t give a shit what YOU are comfortable with. Israelis have stolen the land with a claim they found in a fairy tale book.
And spare us with “I am not a Jew” argument will you?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
“Though I’m off for now. ”
Making more money? how many dead Palestinian children have you promised IDF today?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
What you’re saying is reasonable in #144, Hector. I just thought it important to put out the reminder that Israel is not a theocracy, and that Jews are not simply a religion, as these caveats are also missed by many of those who have chosen Israel as their own personal demon, for reasons both respectable and not so respectable.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
“who liked to rape nine year old girls.”
But written by someone who prefers to bang his own daughter to keep the wealth in the family?
Gosh you ARE an imbecile.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
U.N. Observe for once is right. Israel is not a theocracy it’s an apartheid.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
“They won’t do that, however, as long as barbarians like you are the ruling faction among the Palestinians”
Look, as much as I want to see the State of Israel cease to exist, I have enormous amount of respect for Jews generally and the Jewish religion (Israel is an example of how even the best people can do horrible things). So no, I’m not endorsing Farid’s comments. But I think it’s hilarious (as well as diseased and sick) that we see people trashing the Moslem faith and Arab culture for hundreds of comments, and then when we see Farid come by with some comparitively mild anti Jewish comments (albeit still unfair) the same people who have been calling Moslems and Arabs every kind of name in the book come up with these sorts of comments.
Again, a formerly firm supporter of Israel who now wishes it to cease to exist as a State. The second greatest force for evil in the world (next to the U.S.A., of course).
And, of course, his comments about the founding of the State of Israel are 100% correct and really not even rebutible (no one has even tried). The only real defense of the State of Israel is that, whatever the facts of the founding, 50 years of history and te fact that most Israelis were born there justifies Israel’s current existance. That’s an argument that I bought at one time, but has been invalidated by Israel’s history of war crimes.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
How many dead Jews have you promised the Izzedin al Qassem brigades?
Your one-track mind is like a broken record. Is this how reasoned discourse and disagreement proceeds in your more socially familiar environs? Pre-empiric and irrationally?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
If so, you’re proving Omri’s point.
Yalla and bye.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
That is correct, they dont call themselves “Chosen Ones”. They use a variety of other language that is identical in meaning, because the domain name “The_Chosen_Ones” was already taken. Instead they will speak about the Ummah in the case of Islam or followers of Jesus in the case of Christianity and then encase these terms in phrases that suggest the same thing as being Chosen. More importantly you are missing a crucial point, namely that Zionism is much better understood within the context of colonialism than through dissecting Judaism.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
U.N. Observer
Seriously what sorts of upbringing have you had? time to sue your parents who failed to teach you basic human values?
I mean I am not the one advocating killing Palestinian en-mass it’s you.
Paid criminal Scumbags like you, the apologists for Israel’s genocide, are the ones creating obstacles in peace process.
Off yourself will ya?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Farid,
I don’t particularly give a s–t what YOU and your fellow barbarians think. The nice thing is that neither does Israel, and neither do most Arab governments. Since liberal democracy will almost certainly never take root in the Arab countries, I can be satisfied that your pitiful and ignorant whining will be as every bit as impotent under an Arab regime as under a Jewish one. Honestly, you do sound like an overgrown baby whose favorite toy get stepped on.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
“Is this how reasoned discourse and disagreement proceeds in your more socially familiar environs?”
This is coming from someone who supports Israel’s actions. That’s rich.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
My about “commentators like MY” is that these rocket attacks have been going on for months with nary a comment from MY. Then this attack happens, and MY delivers a finger-wagging lecture to Israel about how counter-productive it is.
There’s an implied superiority — Israel should know better than to engage in counterproductive actions, Hamas shouldn’t be expected to.
Peretz is simply taking this double standard one step further
December 30th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Hector
Don’t tell me you are THAT retarded to think Israel is a democracy, or are you?
Tell me are you a product of an inbred marriage?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
“Honestly, you do sound like an overgrown baby whose favorite toy get stepped on.”
You, on the other hand Hector, sound like a 1970’s douchnozzle who’s scared to be replaced by a modern douchpouch.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
“More importantly you are missing a crucial point, namely that Zionism is much better understood within the context of colonialism than through dissecting Judaism.”
True enough, but again, people are complaining about the mote in Farid’s eye while ignoring the beam in their own.
The fact of the metter is that if I were a Palestinian, and I thought that animals like Hector represented the views of the typical Israeli, I’d surely want to see some Israeli settlements blown up. Heck, any rational person would.
Ironicly, the median Israeli is far more reasonable than Hector. But Israel is currently captive of its worse elements, something which I think can’t be changed, which is why Israel must cease to exist.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Voice of Reason
Israel will cease to exist. When its main financial/spiritual backing falls to its knees, the folks there should pack up and head back to where they came from: Europe.
The end of American empire will certainly bring the end to the illegal state of Israel
December 30th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Oh and one more thing. Low lifes like Hector or the U.N. Observer or that cocksucker SLC are not exception these folks don’t have the skills like the rest of the Zionists to hide their racism.
They’re all scumbags; some are able to hide some can’t or don’t.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Voice of Reason,
You’re an idiot. As I stated above, I think that Israel should withdraw to 1967 borders, and that means no settlements. I think that within those borders, Israel should be a Jewish state, whatever they decide that should mean, but I want the Palestinians to have their state as well.
I’m a Christian and I have some serious issues with Jewish theology, and I think that the theological argument for restoring the State of Israel is wrong. Again, I am very emphatically NOT in any way a philo-Semite. Simply put, I think Israel needs to exist so that the Jews can be safe from barbarians like Farid, and from smug cosmopolitan assimilationists like Voice of Reason. (Truly, I’m not sure which of those ultimnately pose the greater threat.)
December 30th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
I’d like to see Fareed try his “human rights” BS on Assad. I suspect he would get a taste of Hama Rules.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
That’s quite interesting calling me a barbarian while you support IDF’s actions of killing a 4 year old Palestinian girl.
Go jerk off your local priest will you?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
The topic is Israel and Palestine. Stay on the topic or get the fuck out of here you fucktard.
Typical of lowlife, low IQ dimwitted morons to jump to different topics when their feeble brain implodes and guts their own stupidity.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Fareed,
Did you see me defending the recent acts by the IDF? I don’t defend them. I think that Israel should be more discriminating about their conduct of the war. However, unlike barbarians like Fareed, I think that Israel has the right to exist, and to maintain its ethnic and religious identity as a Jewish Nation, and to suppress scumbags like Fareed when they try to suggest otherwise.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Retreating back Hector are we? YOU were the one justifying IDF’s killing machine which resulted in the death of Palestinian children.
You are sexier when you don’t hide your eagerness to be a total cocksucker.
Did you jerk off your priest yet?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Firing rockets into Israel is stupid because they don’t work.
Assassinating Israel’s leaders would be a much superior tactic.
Israel is run by scumbags.
Hamas is run by idiots.
Israel is an illegal, rogue, terrorist state, founded by terrorists no different from Al Qaeda today and run by terrorists today engaging in war crimes against mass numbers of Palestinians and Lebanese. It needs to be dissolved by the UN and replaced by the original Palestinian Mandate of the League of Nations which specified that Palestine was to be developed into its own state with a PORTION of Palestine set aside for the Jews.
The UN, according to its own commission set up to study the matter in 1947, explicitly did not have any legal authority to partition Palestine. The decision to partition Palestine must be reversed.
Israel must be forced to disarm its nuclear arsenal and subjected to a world wide economic boycott and blockade if it fails to comply.
A Palestinian state should be set up, with a Constitution that recognizes the civil rights of both Palestinians and Jews, and with its border security guaranteed by the international community, thus removing any Jewish fears of being invaded (which is ridiculous anyway given the military Israel has). All land seized from Palestinians must be returned to their rightful owners based on existing legal documentation. The right of return by Palestinians should be recognized based on documented land ownership.
This is the only possible outcome that doesn’t involve significant numbers of people getting killed.
Otherwise, Israel is doomed to be destroyed eventually, and will probably be guilty of genocide before then and will certainly spark more conflict in the region.
Israel has absolutely no right to exist, legally and historically, as a state. Palestine does, with support for the Jewish population as per the Palestinian Mandate.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Idiot Fareed, I never defended the actions of the Israeli government. I defended a very narrow thesis, which is that ISrael has the right to exist.
Evidently, however, Idiot Fareed isn’t very well equipped to speak English. Perhaps he should have spent more time in school, and less time f–ing his harem of houris and throwing stones at people who insult his so-called “Prophet”. Learn some remedial English, Fareed.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Richard, that will be facilitated greatly when the American empire is finally expired. From the evidence of the past 3 years it’s obvious that both goal are quite achievable.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
It’s okay to retreat Hector. Scumbags are allowed to make mistakes too.
How’s the local priest doing? must be happy by now eh?
December 30th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
I mentioned not one thing in this thread about Israel’s actions and an apparently murderous lunatic who calls himself “Farid” suggested I “off” myself because his pride/honor/dignity/whatnot got in the way of accepting that his diatribe about how Judaism is somehow inherently “racist” was invalid. Further, his pride/honor/dignity was dispatched in the service of dispensing interjections about AIPAC, etc. The irony that he offered such a suggestion as a retort against his own illiterate replies, and in defense of lives in Gaza, was apparently lost on such a waste of space as he.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
And I notice Hector received nearly the same treatment.
Way to go, Farid! Proving your illiteracy on two fronts!
You may think you’re defending your honor but you’re only embarrassing yourself.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
“You may think you’re defending your honor but you’re only embarrassing yourself.”
Sure sweetheart because you say so.
So what’s the tally today? how much did you get paid? I heard Israelis pay a premium if the child is under 8. Can you confirm that?
December 30th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Oh wait a fucking minute are you a Chosen One disguised as a U.N. Observer?
oh you little cock-tease!
December 30th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Also, he alleged criminality based on what he fantasized that I advocated!
Perhaps that’s how it works in some circles – the ones where speech (free, literate or otherwise) and thought are problematic phenomena.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Habibi, are these heuristics helpful to you? Fantasizing my identity in order to put my harmful words(!) out of your pained and deeply distressed mind? Homoeroticism, Judaism, military action and Israeli nationality? Wooh boy do you have issues!
I think there are movies incorporating these themes for you to peruse in certain sections of your local video store.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Just wait until you rent them and take them home until you jerk off to them. Your tiny penis might not be able to take the suspense, but you could arrested if you go at it too soon.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Observer, stop embarrassing U.N by acting like a self-obsessed fool.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
The height of enlightenment by a typical Israeli supporter:
“Just wait until you rent them and take them home until you jerk off to them. Your tiny penis might not be able to take the suspense, but you could arrested if you go at it too soon.”
Now WHO is embarrassing himself publicly?
December 30th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Not obsessed, Dave. Just concerned about Farid and his predilection for juxtaposing homoerotic themes onto his fantasies of Jews, Israel, death and explosions. It’s not healthy, but that’s his fetish. I accept him for it, just wonder if he might need some help.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
“Now WHO is embarrassing himself publicly?”
I don’t know Farid. But my pride and honor certainly won’t be forever buried if we were to discuss something else instead.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Dude, you’re embarrassing yourself even more by spewing nonsense. Let it go.
He owns your ass now.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
“But my pride and honor certainly won’t be forever buried if we were to discuss something else instead.”
You’re certainly running out of ideas now – just like the Nazi regime … sorry I meant Zionist regime of Israel.
Go back to your base which is supporting genocide.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Wait Dave. You say I’m spewing nonsense and embarrassing myself by pointing out Farid’s lurid obsessions, only to conclude with this:
“He owns your ass now.”
I think you’ve got issues too, Dude!
December 30th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Dave,
Everyone has issues according to the AIPAC genocide supporter, the U.N. Observer.
Wanna bet in a less 3 posts he’d call you an anti semite if you continued.
Brainless thugs supporting Israel, what can I say?
December 30th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Plus, no one here is using anything but a pseudonym or (at most) a first name. The notion that embarrassment (or the opposite of honor, i.e. “shame” – a cultural value) should play any role in discussion boards such as these in cyberspace bring us back to the main point – a point which many have contributed lucidly to and discussed in detail, just not others who are relying on the aforementioned as rhetorical devices.
Now that’s ironic.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
If you weren’t brainless you’d be more concerned about making use of or edifying your own reading skills, Farid.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Another failing attempt by a paid thug. Try again fuckstick. I’d love to see you embarrass yourself a bit more.
I mean it’s your financial interest too no? what’s it 1 buck and half for a post?
Let your Zionist racism run wild.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
You two ought to get a room.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Your vocabulary is as limited as your imagination, and your thinking skills as developmentally stunted as your libido.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Farid promised he wouldn’t refer to my “fuckstick” in front of others, as he has a more, er, personal and intimate relationship with it.
At least, in his mind he does.
Did you want pictures of it to go on your wall, Farid? I wouldn’t want you to get lonely at night.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
22 * 1.5 = 33
U.N. Observer has made 33 bucks in this thread. Dude talk to your fucking cheap AIPAC employer should raise your rates.
Use me as a reference. I’ll tell them what a serious scumbag you are.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Mathematically speaking you are financially better off turning a blind eye to ethnic cleanings in Gaza than posting here.
Given that you have no value system whatsoever you could make more money by letting IDF off the hook than participating here.
After all for your kind, the only thing that matters is money.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Wiley
He doesn’t like uncut boys
December 30th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
That’s fine, Farid. It’s interesting that you put yourself in the, er, position of knowing what AIPAC wants, as it is that you’ve put yourself in so many interesting positions tonight. And in so many ways – both figuratively and literally.
But just one thing, if you tell them about that “fuckstick” of mine that you’re so obsessed with just make sure to leave out those certain details that you wouldn’t want them to know about you. You wouldn’t want them to know everything about you, would you?
Ok. Playtime’s over for you.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
All bullies are like that. When they are pushed into the corner they whimper like a 70 year hooker – a kosher one mind you.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Why do you put the cute little frown emoticon in there when you say I don’t like uncut boys, Farid? We know that you are, as they say, “cut”. So again, why the frown? Turn that frown upside down and feel proud to have the same kind of “fuckstick” as I do – the one you love so much!
Ok, now shut the fuck up and open the tabs to your “other” favorite websites. Go away.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
And stop with that obsession of yours with money, Farid. You know that was never what it was that was making me keep you away from my “fuckstick”, as it were. Poor as you are, and as rich as I am, that was never the issue between us – you devilish closet queen who likes to chase straight guys.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
What dear U.N. Observer? more Palestinian children to brutally murder? haven’t you earned enough cash today?
Seriously what kind of a mother did you have? a woman of an easy virtue?
December 30th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
How can I have time to waste abusing Palestinian children when I’m so busy fighting you off from your excited efforts to enjoy my “fuckstick”?
You are seriously as dumb as a rock. And a masochist.
Now step away from those websites and videos we discussed earlier and go back to pretending that you care about vulnerable Palestinians. But do it on a different thread. No one is following this one anymore – except you, Mr. Proud and Honorable and Dignified “FUCKSTICK” swallower!
December 30th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
In a manner of speaking, it looks like you did get a room. You both like it rough, heh?
December 30th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
I like when I said “FUCKSTICK” swallower. It made me wonder if Farid wanted to be a sword swallower when he was a young tot, like the guys at the circus. But totally different.
But it’s no contest in the roughness department. This is only rough on one of us.
December 30th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Re Farid
Aside from everything else, it is my information that some Muslim sects also practice circumcision.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
SLC
All Muslim males should be circumcised. I am not a Muslim; my parents were Zoroastrian and I am of a pure Aryan race. If you are so interested just like the U.N. Observer in my genitals, you’d be glad to know I am uncut.
U.N. Observer is only into cut boys however
But U.N. Observer is busy these days letting IDF kill Palestinian children. He’s very much into Zionist traditions you know, circumcision and genocide of non Jews.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Wiley
I don’t mind roughing up some pussy boys if you know what I am saying.
U.N. Observer
Say hello to your Jew motha for me will ya?
December 30th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Idiot Fareed,
“Aryan” is a linguistic term, not a racial one. There is no such thing as “Aryan race”. Since you’re a Zoroastrian, you should be aware that the Muslim Jihadists you defend so assiduously would cheerfully murder you and your parents if they got the change. You should be ashamed of yourself for selling out your religion and your ancestry in such a craven way. I bet your ancestors are rolling in their graves (yes, I know that Zoroastrians don’t actually bury their dead, but you get my point.)
It’s funny to think there was a time when Zoroastrians and Jews were, if not friends, at least respectful allies. From King Cyrus the Great to Fareed the F–ktard, what a decline.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
U.N. Observer disappears and Hector appears any coincidence? you are not cheating AIPAC out of its money are you?
Go back to defending genocide you dipshit.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
“Aryan” is a linguistic term, not a racial one.”
Haha stop embarrassing yourself and go back jerking off to you bible you cum guzzling pussyboy.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
“U.N. Observer disappears and Hector appears any coincidence? you are not cheating AIPAC out of its money are you?”
LOL!
December 31st, 2008 at 3:13 am
Read this link.
December 31st, 2008 at 3:44 am
Hector,
Youj have me a pegged a bit wrong. If I was in charge, the blood of animals like yourself would run hip deep in the streets.
Since I’m not in charge, I will simply wish you a painful agonizing death in the near future, perhaps froma very fast acting but painful cnacer, and hope that you burn in the fires of hell for all eternity.
December 31st, 2008 at 6:03 am
This thread proves there is no hope for mankind.
December 31st, 2008 at 6:44 am
Voice of reason
Please! it’s cruel to compare the like of Hector aka U.N. Observer and SLC to animals. These are parasites. If I was in charge I’d just burn them to oblivion.
December 31st, 2008 at 6:45 am
“This thread proves there is no hope for mankind.”
No Anthony it’s just shows you how to deal with pro Israeli bully crowd. All you have to do is bitch slapped them, they’d easily bend over and take it up the ass bareback. Trust me.
December 31st, 2008 at 7:57 am
Re Farid
1. Just for the information of Mr. needle dick Farid, not all Muslim sects practice circumcision.
2. Just for the information of Mr. needle dick Farid, Joshua of Nazareth was circumcised on the eighth day after his birth (now known as January 1, the start of the new year).
3. Just for the information of Mr. needle dick Farid, circumcision was almost universal in most parts of the United States up until the 1970s and was usually performed shortly after birth at the hospital.
December 31st, 2008 at 10:54 am
Farid,
That’s just a variation on the old “the only thing that [Israelis, Palestinians} understand is force” bullshit which is helping to drive the whole conflict. It’s nonsense; violence just hardens hearts and makes the conflict worse.
That said, you won’t hear ME make any pleas for peace in the region. That ship has sailed long ago. While violence won’t reconcile either side to giving in to the other side, violence is the only option right now. At this point it all comes down to picking sides – and I will galdly pick the side of the Palestinians who, despite their own crimes and faults, have a much better historical claim to the land.
December 31st, 2008 at 12:34 pm
And every time I check in, this thread is worse off than it was before, which each time seems impossible.
February 26th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Israel is and will allways be in auto-defence mode which is under the guide lines of the U.N warfare capability guidelines and aswell as the american and as for that every single country. The reason of Israel harsh violent steps into Gaza is because it cost men , money , liability , respect , and room for more hatred against Israel which there is alot already. I am pro-israelien because i think it should exist as does every other country but i understand the Palestinian side aswell. But, you must understand even if Israel wasnt there the British would and it would be the same thing and same issues different enemy. Israel exist the end. Palestine is the past. just as other countries such as Roman Empire / Egyptian / Mongol / Soviet.. many have fallen so it is not a unique case.. they have the choice to leave if they wish but they resist the temptation. The reason for this is either for money or for no were to go. Hamas is a militant group that governs itself and gathers power by making them look like the “VICTIM” which so far is working very well. Hamas will be eventually destroyed because at the end of this Gaza will because another israelien province and will be very closely monitored or it will be throughly checked by military security personel and will find and execute the military issues that they have there. Operation Black Province is the military plan that israel has made that will probably be very successful but has not been approved by the minister.. Gaza in my opinion is lucky to be alive because if it were America and Canada i assure you Canada would cease to exist.
Any remarks please email me Wargustus01@yahoo.com
February 26th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Reading the comments above me Farid, the IDF has reacted its best possible.. America has done the same in Iraq twice and in Afghanistan just they cover there tracts much better and are the best for convering up things. Now, the killing of palestinian women and children on both sides is not acceptable but is understandable because if you havent been in war you do not know the amount of pressure and fear you have that around every corner, door, roof-top, or car there could be a guy with the up-most hatred that is willing to kill you , if that means taking his life aswell. The killing of the children is because of fear and jumping out of no where and scaring a man that has been shot at for three hours and been in threat of being wiped of the face of the earth which was a badly excecuted threat.
Now Farid, if you have been in war you will agree with me if not you will think you are better than a trained fighter. War is not a joke or a excitment it is a battle for survival, for a country surrounded by enemies to exist it must excercise lethal and military action.
Farid, you have made some points that are opinions but you must look how Israel looks upon the safety of 33% of its population and the safety of the Palestinian people.
If you are pro-hama’s it is because Hama’s has done his job and has quickly worked for you to look at them as the VICTIM.
Now if you are pro-hama’s and do not realize its flaws i would go far enough to call you… well, stupid. (no offense)
Hama’s is a terrorist orginization that is harvesting teens and young adults at the age of 12-35 that are trained to believe suicide bombing is a honor and a privelege to do in the name of ALLAH.
If you agree with Hama’s you also agree with the terrorists as Al Qaeda / Taliban / Hezzbollah ( i probably didnt spell that right ) because they also rule and belief the same things and ways.
Now Farid dont take sides it will make you look bad, there is no right or wrong side because they are both right in some ways and ofcourse wrong in others..
Now to point out your insults i am pro-israelien and i do understand the pain on all sides. Military action was necasary and was needed in many other cases .
Now humans are not toys…
Choose your words carefully.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Voice of Reason
Buddy you understand the conflict very well but the comment about the palestinine terroritory is completly denied by many because that land has been disputed for thousands of years… if you look at it that way .. The Romans controll it , Salhadin Empire /Egyptian / Alexander / and many others including Britain.. Before the state of israel was established it was a province of England and was ruled by english military so dont start saying whoose land it was because the farthest the historical facts and scrolls go the israelien controlled it the longest time ago and controlled most of it durring the roman invasions. Please check the facts if you dont believe me. I appreciate your truth on accepting there war crimes and offensive behaviors against israel.
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