Getting Tough
Marty Peretz on the Gaza attacks:
Message: do not fuck with the Jews.
I think that’s exactly right, and also incredibly idiotic. To people who feel besieged and impotent to resolve the political paralysis afflicting their country, something like sending the message “do not fuck with the Jews” must feel incredibly cathartic. But you have to ask yourself which Palestinian having lived through decades of Israeli occupation and all sorts of different ups-and-downs of Israeli policy and all manner of retaliatory strikes and cease-fires is really unaware that Israel doesn’t like being fucked with? The psychology of catastrophe is that one wants (a) to improve the situation, and (b) to lash out at a bad guy.
Under the circumstances, the temptation to decide that you can best accomplish (a) by doing (b) is overwhelming and so you respond to 9/11 by invading Iraq. But already the number of Israelis killed by Hamas rockets has increased (from a baseline of zero) since the retaliatory attack that was supposed to prevent such killings.
116 Responses to “Getting Tough”
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December 28th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Notice also Marty’s conflation of “Jews” and “Israelis.” A nice fucking rhetorical sleight-of-hand that makes it easer to present criticism of Israel policy as criticism of “Jews.”
December 28th, 2008 at 11:46 am
All these tough guys in our country! Marty Peretz; Dick Cheney; Doug Feith; Wolfie; the Kagans; Mitch McConnell; Just so many brave warriors keeping the world safe for us. . . Gee guys, thanks for your service.
Well, actually, not YOUR service exactly. But, chicken shit M.F.’s like you are lucky your nation does have brave men and women (and me) willing to serve AND that we are not coming after you for the danger you put us in with your idiotic ideas.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:46 am
This is so sad. Watching interviews with incompetent Israeli leaders on CNN, NBC and Faux News, they can’t explain what this is supposed to accomplish. Instead, they hide behind the formulation, “we’re not going on TV to tip off Hamas about our strategy.”
They have no strategy.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Don’t mess with Texas.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
So it seems Bush has been successful in exporting his “cowboy diplomacy across the globe. Everyone from Putin to Israel now sees fit to launch devastating preemptive strikes on smaller and innocent nations/peoples.
Nice job, Dubya…
And why is our new “dear leader,” the “change agent” Obama, not condemning Israel’s atrocities? Surviving a holocaust does not give one free reign to create one anew with which to terrorize your modern enemies…
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog/
December 28th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
I would never judge Israeli citizens, particularly those along the border, for wanting a measure of retribution and vengeance. But for a government to act out of anger or a desire for blood is utterly shameful.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
People like Peretz and so many in the foreign policy establishment and the punditocracy and the talk radio / blogger / commenter brigades give not the slightest sh*t about the actual lives and interests of actual Israeli Jewish and Israeli Arab and Palestinian Arab people and their lives.
They don’t care what would in the real world lead to better conditions for Israelis and Palestinians, just like the freak fakers who justified their blowing up of Iraq as though they gave the slightest damn about actual Iraqi lives and the possible consequences of their thrilling decisions upon them.
And of course, in reality, it’s the opposite — the approach of any policy which might tend to resolve these conflicts in a better and long-term direction are of course products of The Enemy, who stands ever vigilant to rob the craven militarists of their manly fun.
This is all a giant game to them, varying from being a proxy for their own need for demonstrations of ‘toughness’ to sheer sexual release at violence meted out against the evil ‘wogs’.
To them this kind of impressive death & destruction is better than watching “300″ in full leather thong mode.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
I am always amazed when I read some of the bedwetting comments on this page ref. anything to do with Israel and the Palestinians.
Francisco rages at getting set up as anti-semitic, Wisconsin Reader launches on a tangential rant,and ssa bemoans Israel’s “pre-emptive” strikes. Seems to me if Hamas wanted to improve their situation, launching missiles into Israel wouldn’t meet the rational decision making threshold. Of course, as Hamas is a terrorist organization that does not recognize Israel, launching missiles might make sense.
Anytime people root for Hamas, I wonder if they would support Native American tribes randomly launching missiles into their neighborhoods from a reservation. How long would we sit around and let Native Americans pummel us with mortars and missiles over perceived slights; real or imagined?
December 28th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
By the way, a fun thing to watch out for will be how long it takes various media to start complaining about the lack of Palestinian police & security forces & intelligence agencies in responding to the (sure to be) upcoming greater violence and disorder — the same agencies which are now being targeted and having both their physical infrastructure and trained forces being blown up as an attack on ‘Hamas’, which is one of those terms which means pretty much anyone wants it to mean.
In any case, let the strutters do their strutting for the moment, just as happened a few summers ago with the heroic 2006 July war attack on Lebanon which so boldly strengthened the hand of Hizbullah, and let’s all make sure to act surprised again when the effects aren’t exactly those that the strutters claimed to be aiming at.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
And in the spirit of Godwin: I’m sure that Peretz would approve of labelling photos of the Warsaw Ghetto’s demolition with “Message: Do Not Fuck With The Nazis”.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Q: Why did you rob the bank?
A: Because people stopped paying for war.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Anytime people root for Hamas–
Keep dancing with your straw man, Dorothy.
This is a dick-swinging contest between two eunuchs, the only distinction being that the US supplies one of them with truckloads of Viagra.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
The only hypothetical about this moronic comparison is the technological context. You gotta be proud of a country that can produce thought of this caliber.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
The only hypothetical about this moronic comparison is the technological context.
I bet Leonard Peltier would see the comparison. The only difference is the amount of time between the Native Americans taking their lumps and the Palestinians taking theirs. Of course, the Native Americans didn’t have the UN around to drag out the whole grievance theater so they had to get over it.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
f*ckswithgoats: I would be highly entertained by a discussion panel with you and Leonard Peltier in which you express your admiration for the Native Americans’ impressive ability to take their lumps.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Not sure that I admire their ability to take lumps. Just noting that they had to. Kind of like a lot of other peoples throughout history. Doesn’t make it right; just makes history what it is.
My first thought when I see anything to do with goats is not carnal. I note that anyone who disagrees with me on this page immediately makes a bestiality linkage. Go figure.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Maybe the South African blacks should also have “taken their lumps”? And the Algerian arabs too? The chauvinism of Zionism is quite breathtaking: to correctly understand the conflict between bigoted colonials and the native population, and even so siding with the bigoted colonials.
December 28th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
So, the Israelis are “bigoted colonials”?
December 28th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
In a word, yes.
This is today’s edition of etc.
December 28th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Yes: colonials, as a settler state by definition (and as tacitly admitted by your comparison with situation vis-a-vis the Native Americans) And pervasively intensely bigoted against the native arabs, no question.
December 28th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
I don’t know, I would be willing to be that the Palestinians and for that matter, all Arabs, are intensely bigoted against the native Israelis. You do realize there were Jews there to start with?
Ref. Native Americans and rocket attacks – I was pointing out the disconnect in the pro-Hamas thought process. It is ok for Hamas to randomly launch missiles into Israel because of the perceived repression of the Palestinians. On the other hand, it wouldn’t be ok for Native Americans to start launching rockets into American suburbia.
December 28th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Except that, of course, absolutely no one here is “pro-Hamas”, no one is defending indiscriminate rocketing. No one at all. You’re simply spouting off against a pathetic strawman. What many people, including me, are decrying is the, yes, indiscriminate killing of Palestinian civilians. Today, Palestinian children are dying, killed by Israeli ordinance. Palestinians who have nothing to do with Hamas, who have never held a rocket, who have never even thrown a stone, killed today by Israel. That has moral content irrespective of the inexcusable actions of Hamas. The fact that you have to resort to argue against no one demonstrates your inability to grasp that.
December 28th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Freddie – I will assume that you are outraged at the deaths of Israelis from Palestinian rockets?
The Palestinians of Gaza have a lot to do with Hamas. They voted them into office. Now they are reaping the whirlwind. Elections have consequences. Vote in a bunch of nutters and you get a government that calls for the destruction of your neighbor. BTW – your neighbor is a first world power that militarily overmatches you. A military solution is probably not a good one.
Also, I would not term Israeli bombs as “indiscriminate”. As a civilized, first world nation state, their military operates under the control of a democratically elected civilian government. A lot of thought goes into targeting and the type of ordanance to use. If Israel wanted to indiscrimanetly kill Palestinians, the death total would be a lot more than 150 (+). They hit over 100 targets in the middle of a dense urban area and killed an average of about 1.5 Palistinians per target. Not too indiscriminate if you ask me.
December 28th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
The Palestinians need to be aware that they will be bombed and suffer reprisals if they vote in Hamas, the elections that the U.S. pushed for despite warnings of the likely timed results.
Of course, the Palestinians need to be aware that they will be bombed and suffer reprisals if they do not vote in Hamas, or if they vote them out, or if they had never ever held elections, or if they started pushing for statehood, or if they didn’t, or if their security forces are too threatening, or if their security forces are too disorganized, or if there are elections coming up in Israel, or if there are no elections coming up in Israel.
In short, the Palestinians need to know that there are consequences in being occupied, and they also need to shut up and remind themselves how awesomely democratic Israel is to put up with them existing at all, lump taking included.
December 28th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
The Palestinians also need to be aware that if they keep their indiscriminate rocket attacks to a minimal level, kind of like they did for the past six months, they won’t get bombed. Of course, if they stopped the attacks all together, no telling what might happen. Maybe if they gave back Gilad Shillat (sp?) they could even live like civilized people.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
“On the other hand, it wouldn’t be ok for Native Americans to start launching rockets into American suburbia.”
There’s quite a big difference between the plight of the Palestinians and that of the Native Americans. Not a single reservation is America faces an economic blockade, unlike Gaza, which does. Native Americans can travel freely throughout the US. Palestinians can’t do that. Native Americans have full rights as citizens, Palestinians do not. White people aren’t invading reservations and building illegal settlements. Israelis are doing that in Palestine. Americans don’t build special roads that Native Americans can’t drive on. Israel does have special Jewish only roads running through Palestine. I certainly don’t support the Hamas rocket attacks, but given the Palestinian plight, I can understand their anger. Now if Israel were to stop the illegal settlements, end the economic blockade, and allow Palestinians to chose their own leaders, I would no longer understand Hamas’ anger. Just as I wouldn’t understand why Native Americans would launch attacks on us. In short, we aren’t repressing the Native Americans anymore, while Israel still is repressing the Palestinians. That’s a very important distinction.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Re “Message: do not fuck with the Jews”
———–
Pretty brave talk for someone who has to ask his wife for money.
Tamped down anger comes out in such comical ways.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Why do you people keep robbing
Palestinians of agency?
They’re not toddlers.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Much as I like Yglesias, I’m not sure this post takes into account the degree to which the left respects power and “getting things done”. If, once Israel’s finished its operation, conflict resumes immediately, the left will say “I told you it wouldn’t work”. But if after all is said and done there is a long period of quiet, no one will crow about all the destruction they complained about earlier. They will, in short, mimic the silence of their heretofore implacably irredentist Gazans.
Also, you’ve gotta love the throwing around of the term “colonials”. Remind me, which Jewish Empire did the Zionists emigrate from? I mean, other than the one posited in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
December 28th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Shorter danceswithgoats: “Because other groups have had atrocities visited upon them and have come out of it just peachy, like our friends the Native Americans for whom life is a picnic, the Palestinians need to grin and bear it. If they would just sit around in poverty and refugee-ness, maybe some day Israel will decide to bless them with some facsimile of a normal life. Honest!”
December 28th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
The really sad part of this is the utter delusion. First, Bush thinks that validating Israel immediately is “no cost.” He did the same thing in Lebanon in 2006 and that became a PR catastrophe.
Second, the Egyptians gave Hamas false assurances about Israel’s intentions (that explains the why Hamas police graduation ceremony proceeded and made a great object of attack–about 75 dead.) So the Dictator Mubarek has shown he directly betrayed fellow Arabs.
Third, Fatah has been silent, indicating they are complicit. How are they going to legitimately negotiate for the Palestinians when they set up their own people for slaughter?
It’s 2006 all over again. The Arab governments will be walking all of this back within the week. Abbas will get invited to Olmert’s office for a bagel. And Abbas will go in history as Palestine’s Quisling.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Can someone please pass along to fostert the news that Gazans were allowed to elect their own leaders (I’m not sure but I think they’re called “Hamas”) and that Israeli settlements don’t exist on their land.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Egypt and Fatah are complicit in nothing other than not sharing Hamas’ genocidal and theocratic goals and objectives. With a name like “Mythbuster” you’d think that such a simple admission wouldn’t be difficult to make, but apparently not.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
I really have no idea what to recommend to any civilian population which is plagued with heavily armed paramilitary organization who are completely resistant to civilian complaints or wishes or protest. There’s some continuing fantasy that as the population of Palestinian lands are attacked more viciously, somehow the bedraggled civilian population will be driven to figure out how to throw out the armed groups, but for the life of me I can’t come up with any realistic scenario of how that would happen.
It certainly would be nice if those armed paramilitaries were gone and replaced by Gandhian civil dissenters — although that would be a nightmare scenario for the Israeli hawks (and their sexually excited colleagues over here like Peretz), since the last thing any of them have ever wanted for the last generation is a genuine peaceful settlement of the I/P conflict. That’s one of the reasons Israeli intelligence helped build up Hamas in the first place — you destroy secular nationalist unity by sowing religious divisions. And it worked. More years passed, still they claim ‘no partners’ eligible for negotiations, still no peace to get in the way of such a thrilling way of war.
I don’t blame the Colombian population for having a government which built up a force of right wing narco-paramilitary death squads to deal with an unending leftist guerrilla narco-insurgency, either. Nor do I spend a lot of time focusing on how wrong many Colombians were to think that the Mafia-style answer to guerrilla violence was the right way. Urban Colombians may overwhelmingly elect and re-elect the President (Uribe) who launched the modern phase of the paramilitaries who slaughtered 70% of the civilian victims of the civil war, and who dominate the nation’s narco-trafficking today, so I guess I could blame the Colombians as failing to use their own agency, but it just seems to be a pointlessly dickish thing to do.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Why do you people keep robbing
Palestinians of agency?
Oh, I dunno: perhaps it’s because that’s what Israel does?
December 28th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
UN Observer says, “Egypt and Fatah are complicit in nothing other than not sharing Hamas’ genocidal and theocratic goals and objectives.”
The genocide? The evidence? None, of course. Not accepting that Palestine was stolen from Palestinains is now equal to “supporting genocide.”
Zionist apologists are the only people stupid enough to accuse others of “genocide” when the Zionists are doing 99% of the killing. Oh, well: Any group of people who can convince themselves that they are “chosen” is capable of entertaining any fantasy.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
I really have no idea what to recommend to any civilian population which is plagued with heavily armed paramilitary organization who are completely resistant to civilian complaints or wishes or protest.
Why don’t you recommend that Hamas do the same thing they did for the last six months. The rockets stopped – not entirely, but enough that Israel felt no need to shoot back.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Look – Israel is every bit as bad as Nazi Germany. Worse, as they are a democracy.
Hoping for the end of Israel, far from being anti-semitic, is simple sanity.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
I assume no evidence is sufficient for busting the myth that Hamas seeks a peaceful resolution and sharing of the land with Jews who live in the Holy Land, including that which comes from their own charter:
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
“The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ”
“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. “May the cowards never sleep.”
Doesn’t sound any less genocidal to me any definition unquestionably accepted by all the self-styled defenders of the sweet and innocent little indigenes when applying it to the big, bad, evil Jooos.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Hamas should use longer range missile to hit Tel Aviv hard. The only language Israelis understand is force.
Let see what the fucktard Perez had to say when a few building crumbles down to shit.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
VoR relates that “Israel is every bit as bad as Nazi Germany”, a truism that in his mind apparently requires no gas chambers, incinerators, a decline in numbers among the aggrieved population, or the takeover of an entire continent.
Here’s a proposal, VoR: Once the gas chambers are up and running, VoR, I’ll be the first to see if Israel can’t invite you to inspect them – up close and personal – as evidence for your libellous claim. Sound good?
December 28th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Yes, Tom! That’s it! Demolish Tel Aviv and its hundreds of thousands of inhabitants so that a single Jewish writer in America will learn to be less defiant. Your hatred is very inconsistent but so clarifying!
December 28th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
headshaking: OK, great, I will recommend to Hamas a whole panoply of my fantasy ideas. What will come of that? Should I invest time looking into all sorts of armed groups around the world and issuing my recommendations to them too? Good point! I’m going to write a stern letter to various Colombian guerrilla and paramilitary groups right now and ask them to disarm. Why did I not think of this before?
December 28th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Well the “U.N. Observer” it’s okay for the illegal occupiers of the Palestine to brutally kill innocent Palestinians but not okay for Hamas to retaliate?
Are you on AIPAC payroll? or you’re just a brainwashed dumbfuck?
December 28th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Marty Perez is an ardent Zionist. Zionists by definition are racist thugs.
What’s new?
December 28th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
This is why it was a terrible idea to establish a Jewish state, as opposed to a homeland for the Jews. Just as Iranian political leaders frame any conflict with Iran as an attack on Islam, Israel chauvinists construe any and all conflict with Israel as “fucking with the Jews.” Don’t support Israel? You must be an anti-Semite!
Haven’t we played this game enough?
December 28th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Sorry to self link, but I think this is appropriate.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Peretz only gets high when there is Arab blood in the streets. Substitute ‘Peretz’ and ‘Arab’ and include the words usual in antisemitic messages and… you get the idea.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Which country of “Palestine” is Israel illegally occupying, Farid? The one that doesn’t exist or even care to proclaim its existence as a state? Or the one that Gamel Abdel Nasser promised to liberate by pushing the Jews into the sea? Oh, that one.
No one’s dumb enough to pretend to believe that what Hamas has been doing for the last six months constitutes any sort of “retaliation”. If you want to elevate propaganda to an artform it might behove you to figure out what people are actually willing to believe.
But no matter. I do battle with the ignorant and Nazi apologists and you cry foul. Yes, I can see why that upsets you.
No payroll needed here. It’s not that difficult. Yawn.
Why did Mr. Yglesias have to post this drivel – other than to spur on the mindless sputterings of the aforementioned motley crue, and their ally, Farid?
December 28th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Is the message “do not fuck with the Jews” or “if you keep lobbing missiles at our territory, we will blow up the people and structures involved with importing, assembling, and launching those missiles”?
December 28th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
“U.N. Observer” I knew that you had a feeble mind but if you can read English, read this from an Israeli paper:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html
Thanks by the way for reconfirming that you are dumbfuck tool.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
“if you keep lobbing missiles at our territory, we will blow up the people and structures involved with importing, assembling, and launching those missiles”?”
That is simply not true. Try to develop critical thinking skills as opposed to following what everyone says or does like a mindless sheep. You are not a mindless sheep or are you?
December 28th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
“Can someone please pass along to fostert the news that Gazans were allowed to elect their own leaders (I’m not sure but I think they’re called “Hamas”) and that Israeli settlements don’t exist on their land.”
For the record, when I referred to ‘Gaza’ I meant Gaza. When I referred to ‘Palestine’, I meant Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan. And yes, the Israelis did allow elections, which Hamas won. But notice how the Israelis forced Hamas from power in the West Bank? Allowing elections and then overthrowing the elected government isn’t the same as allowing people to choose their leaders. I was really trying to voice the complaints of the Palestinians as a whole, not those specifically of the Gazans. The exception being the blockade, when I specifically used the word ‘Gaza’ as opposed to ‘Palestine.’ And by the way, the blockade is specifically aimed at forcing Hamas from power. And that isn’t really allowing them to freely chose their leaders, is it?
If you think it’s okay to blockade people, I’m sure you opposed the Six Day War. After all, Israel’s beef with Egypt was that Egypt was blockading Israel. That’s why they attacked Egypt. Is the right not to be blockaded reserved only for Israel and nobody else? Or does nobody at all have a right to not be blockaded?
December 28th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
And thanks for confirming that Nazi apologists, ignorance: of international law, the definition of “colonialism”, the agency of Hamas are no match for you and your almighty article! And cuss words! Abu really beat that sense of pride into really good, Farid.
The article doesn’t bother me. Perhaps I’ll read it. Of course, Israel’s ability to engage in self-criticism and maintain its own free media should bother you more than it does me. But the fact that it doesn’t is your own fucking problem, ass-goblin.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Farid
People like the U.N. Observer believe in freedom of speech only for themselves. Wait, where have I see such pattern? Oh yeah among the thugs aka the Zionists.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Seth Gordon, apparently even a believer as devout as Marty Peretz doesn’t buy the second line.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The Israeli military leadership is either insane, or it is lying.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
I see that Tom buys into the Bushian/Rovian definition of free speech – i.e. the kind that insulates itself from criticism in return.
I’m really disappointed to see that Yglesias’ blog has so many mentally challenged, severely disturbed and incredibly tangential followers. I really wasn’t aware how much I wasn’t missing out on by not reading the comments before.
As you were.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Talk about incompetent deflection!
The only disinformation described in Farid’s Ha’aretz link was Israel’s decision to strike Hamas by surprise after publicly musing on re-opening the border with its friendly neighbors to the South. In short, not very damning of anything.
If this is what substitutes for a coherent argument and an example of gross and unethical distortions by the other side, then it’s no wonder that foul-mouth name calling is the best that some can come up with. I’d like to see the sophisticated disinformation campaign that could be waged like that. Oh, that’s right. We already have an example.
December 28th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
fostert,
I’m sure an end to any blockade of Gaza could have been negotiated and achieved, if that’s what Hamas was interested in. The blockade of Israel during the Six Day War was instituted with the stated purpose of wiping a country off the map. There was beligerence then that didn’t exist on Israel’s part re Gaza in 2008 seeing as how they had recently decided to withdraw from the territory.
Also, Israel can’t be responsible in the 2000s for Gazans electing Hamas to power and then watching the latter orchestrate a coup against the ruling party there. I mean, at the end of the day, regardless of history, there are just some things that you can’t just wave an accusatory finger at Israel for and claim, “There’s the source of all evil and all problems in the Middle East – including this one!” It’s not rational.
December 28th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
As you were.
You’re busy? Got Wikipedia pages to edit?
December 28th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The Israeli military leadership is either insane, or it is lying.
That guy in California who dressed up as Santa and shot his ex-wife and her family? He was just taking the Israeli approach to divorce settlements.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
“I’m sure an end to any blockade of Gaza could have been negotiated and achieved, if that’s what Hamas was interested in.”
Umm, no. The only thing Hamas could have offered was to give up power. Israel is using the blockade to specifically remove Hamas from power, which is pretty damn belligerent. As long as Hamas retains power, the blockade will continue. And the situation wasn’t all that different in 1973. After all, had the Israeli government given up its power and allowed the Palestinians to rule Israel, the blockade would have ended. The point is that anyone can end a conflict by surrendering. And that’s the bare minimum that Hamas can do to stop this conflict. Israel will accept no less, and probably wouldn’t be satisfied anyway. Because of that stubbornness, they will get perpetual war. And that seems to be fine with them.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
So, Matt, what do you suggest? Israel tolerated daily rocket attacks for years before finally retaliating. To me, this seems like excessive restraint, but if you have some better idea, I’m sure everybody would love to hear it.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Israel is using the blockade to specifically remove Hamas from power
Why do you only mention Israel, which is only one of two neighbors blockading Gaza? Egypt is blockading Gaza too, you know.
December 28th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Well fostert, that’s an interesting analysis, aside from the fact that it completely ignores that whole inconvenient part about how blockades prevented materials being imported into Gaza which were then used for manufacturing missiles, etc. to launch into Israel. I know, I know. Those silly Jews and their bothersome insistence on protecting their own lives (except for the part where Egypt was concerned about this too). How unethical of them to disregard the fact that the entire Palestinian economy depends on being able to manufacturer weapons with which to indiscriminately target and kill Israeli civilians.
And then there’s that whole bit about how Hamas’ gambit for absolute control ran afoul of the fact that Fatah was still legally supposed to be running the Palestinian government.
So other than the fact that you disregard the channels used to smuggle arms into Gaza (memories of all those tunnels through the Rafah crossing from years earlier spring to mind – funny how Israel was first expected to not busy itself with the endeavor of attending to that ceaseless task), and that the methods by which Hamas retains total control over Gaza are lawless by even Palestinian standards, what other counterfactuals did you want to introduce in order to paint Hamas as the new Israel incarnate ca. 1973?
December 28th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
“do not fuck with the Jews.”
Why? This latest display of “toughness” by the “Jews” looks like it will be every bit as effective as all the other displays of toughness in this interminable conflict. Which is to say, of course, not very effective at all.
December 28th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Wow pseudonymous. It must be absolutely infuriating to hear someone cogently defending an argument you’d like to blot out from consideration with facts and reason when all you’ve got to offer in return are jokes, insults, innuendo and guilt-by-association tactics. Make sure to keep your identity from being revealed to everyone until you come up with something better, mkay?
Pseudonymously Yours,
The Observer
December 28th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
What puzzles me is why the IDF doesn’t just buy a bunch of C-RAM defense systems (land version of the Phalanx that’s on practically every US Navy combat ship) and stick one outside each town or city within rocket range of Gaza. 4,500 high-explosive radar-tracked rounds per minute would shred those homemade Gazan rockets rather neatly.
December 28th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Since August 2005, Gaza has been, as the Palestinians demanded, completely “Jew-free”. Israel actually relocated the Jewish cemeteries that used to be in Gaza. (Think about what it means to “relocate a cemetery”.) Israel and Egypt have borders with Gaza, but Gaza is not occupied by anyone. With the world economy weakening, not many people are enthusiastic about Hamas resuming its rocket launches. Let’s face it, Hamas isn’t giving the media much to work with these days.
I don’t agree with everything that Israel does, but I wish them luck in stopping or reducing the Hamas rockets. They just might pull it off.
December 28th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
“Obs”: if you were planning to do that, go right ahead, and I’ll see if it’s “infuriating”.
December 28th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
shiva wrote:
So when the pro-Hamas shills insist there is still “occupation” you know they’re talking about those 5th, 6th, and 7th generation native Israeli Jew squatters in Israel proper.
December 28th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
The blockades also prevent other kinds of things from being imported into Gaza, like humanitarian aid and fuel for Gaza’s power plant.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Message: Israel = 9/11 FOREVER.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
“I’m sure an end to any blockade of Gaza could have been negotiated and achieved, if that’s what Hamas was interested in. ”
It’s totally mind-boggling the amount of bullshit paid AIPAC thugs like “U.N. Observer” can spew in a matter of minutes.
Dude stop embarrassing yourself and go read book on the subject. You come off as a gigantic douchebag whenever you post a comment.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
None of the people supporting the bombing on this thread have written a single word about how this is supposed to do any good. Not one of them.
There are a couple of half-assed “maybe the Palis will get the message this time” throat-clearings, but it seems like the consideration of how this is supposed to help Israelis is completely beside the point.
I don’t think these strikes were meant to stop rocket attacks, because I’ve yet to see anyone applauding them even attempt to explain how that would work. Certainly, Peretz doesn’t think that point is worth explicating. I don’t think the people who carried them out ever intended them to (let alone the American war-porn/rapture enthusiasts cheerleading from a safe 10,000 miles away). I think killing hundreds of people today wasn’t supposed to accomplish anything more than killing a a couple hundred people.
Because killing people in the Palestinian territories is considered a good for its own sake.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
BTW, who is this sicko “goat” person, who thinks that spouting off about different ethnic groups “taking their lumps” (like the American Indians!) as some sort of natural part of history is a reasonable thing to do while discussing the state of Israel?
I’ve read Men Kampf, thanks. The eternal struggle between nations as the natural order. The right of the conqueror established through conquest, the losers dispossession and death justified by their defeat.
To see this crap repeated by an advocate for the Israeli people is nauseating.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
The best articles on the Gaza atrocity are, not surprisingly, in the Independent. Here´s Robert Fisk´s article, which is particularly good.
Johann Hari is too. He flays the Israeli hypocrisy, supported by Bush, that has continued to put pressure on Hamas in order to create a ¨terrorist¨ threat:
“Before it falls down the memory hole, we should remember that last week, Hamas offered a ceasefire in return for basic and achievable compromises. Don’t take my word for it. According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, “told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms.” Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms.¨
Hamas is a reality, just as it was a reality when Israel elected a man condemned by its own courts as a war criminal, Ariel Sharon, to the post of prime minister. A ceasefire is essential, and it is maddening to see Obama hide from this issue, although understandable. But the EU surely needs to step in, break the blockade on Gaza, urge Hamas and Fatah to form a coalition that can negotiate with Israel, and get down to business, which consists of Israel withdrawing its settlements on the West Bank and settling into its pre-1967 borders. There will be no end to the conflict until that happens.
December 29th, 2008 at 1:27 am
I think that the what Israel should do, is instead of just randomly bombing the hell out of civilians, the Israeli Prime Minister should just go on live television with an adorable little five year old Palestinian girl.
Then he should take out a club and start beating her to death with it. But this is live TV, so he should be careful not to end it too soon. Make sure that the adorable little tyke does some screaming. Break her little bones, smash her hands, mangle her face until she’s not cute any more. Finally, he should just whale on her until blood spatters everywhere and the adorable little girl isn’t recognizeable as anything but battered meat.
Then he should tear pieces out of the corpse with his bare hands. Although that might be hard, so I suppose we’d let him use a knife. And he should eat her flesh, hopefully it’ll be kosher, perhaps a Rabbi could help to bless it. He should eat and eat until he throws up, and then eat some more. And he should look like he’s enjoying it. Then when he can’t eat any more, he should drop his trousers and take a big shit on the mutilated, defiled, half eaten corpse of this innocent, adorable five year old child.
Then he should look straight into the camera and on live television say to the Palestinians: “Don’t fuck with us.”
Whattaya think?
Wouldn’t that be strong enough? Wouldn’t it be bold enough? Wouldn’t it demonstrate conclusively that Israel is not to be messed with? What a demonstration of will and conviction. You know, the sort of people who would brutalize, kill, eat and shit on a five year old girl on live television, they’d do anything. It would certainly put the fear into the Palestinians.
And on that subject… what about Lynching? Perhaps Israel needs to take a lesson from the old Jim Crow South. They too had a perpetually oppressed black population that was far too numerous to ignore. They too had separate but equal. They too had separate facilities for the two races. They too kept all the power in the dominant group, and let the subordinate group work and starve and suffer as they pleased. What was their secret? Lynching. Every now and then, Southern whites would pick an unlucky negro who was a bit too uppity, and they’d lynch him. Usually it didn’t just amount to a hanging. If you read the actual accounts of lynching, there was some pretty gruesome stuff, people torn to pieces, set on fire, there was one case of a pregnant black woman having her baby torn out of her womb with a *shovel* and you can just imagine how difficult that was. Okay, so Lynching wasn’t the prettiest thing in the world… but it worked. It worked very well, the horrific sacrifice of the few was a small price to keep the many in their place.
I mean, Israel should consider it seriously. What the hell, have air raids and crap like that worked well? Nah. No matter how many bombs, no matter how many jet attacks, no matter how many apartment buildings and families at beaches, no matter how many blockades, no matter how much food or necessities are denied, those palestinians are still uppity. They still cobble together their little joke missiles and fire them off and every few years one of them actually hurts or kills someone.
So, maybe we need to bring it a little closer to home.
Let’s face it. The big picture is not going to change. Israel has all the power, and no reason to give up any of it. No power in the middle east, or on Earth for that matter, is going to go head to head with Israel. The entire existential threat to Israel consists of some bad demographic trends and a handful of flakes who aren’t ever going to be more than a nuisance. Gaza is a prison camp – 1.8 million people crowded into a few hundred square miles, borders closed on all sides, denied food and medicine at will, no economy, no function, nothing for the inhabitants but suffering and squalor. It’s terrible, but so what. Sometimes the only way to stand tall is to set your boot on someone’s face, and Israel figures it has to stand tall or be destroyed. Who am I to argue with it.
But let’s just stop pretending.
December 29th, 2008 at 1:39 am
The Palestinians shot a few rockets on ISrael that did not kill anyone. Israel is responding by destroying the whole city and will soon be invading it. 304 people died, just like 1000 (mostly civilians) died in Lebanon before. Americans should realize that criticizing ISrael and calling it with its real name -a terror state- is not an anti-semite statement, and the ISraeli actions should be strongly condemned because they are against humanity. It’s the ultimate hypocricy calling suicide killings acts of terror while throwing bombs on houses stacked with innocent people is called acts of self-defence.
Besides, Hamas was elected in democratic elections. If Bush is calling for democracy in the Mid East, here’s a result: Hamas. Bush should be supporting Hamas if he’s so fond of democracy.
December 29th, 2008 at 1:44 am
Comment 75 absolutely nails it. A few of the people who get killed in these attacks deserve it. The rest of them, well, at least they move the Israeli/Palestinian casualty ratio in the right direction, think the more bloodthirsty commenters here. And no one bothers to articulate how anyone will be better off as the result of this.
December 29th, 2008 at 2:00 am
I agree completely, Hareega. So we must start by condemning ourselves. It just so happens, that the U.S. doesn’t have a leg to stand on in the department of How to Deal with Terrorist Threats. Or what to consider a terrorist threat—look at what’s being done to airline passengers. It’s all out of proportion and bordering on madness, it seems.
It would help immensely if the U.S. would just not veto the U.N. whenever Israel attacks someone.
December 29th, 2008 at 2:12 am
“It would help immensely if the U.S. would just not veto the U.N. whenever Israel attacks someone.”
Never happens because thugs like Marty and Sheldon Adeleson have the Americas by the tits. Zionists financed imperialism is alive and well in the US.
December 29th, 2008 at 5:39 am
The reason that the militarists don’t feel it necessary to explain how slaughtering yet a few more hundred Palestinians (and destroying police forces) will help actual Israeli citizens is that they think it is a priori helpful to slaughter as many Palestinians as possible.
In other words, no argument needed. Killing more Palestinians is the social benefit.
Of course, none of these militarists, in Israel or in the US / UK militarists’ fan clubs, give a damn about what is or isn’t really good for Israeli Jewish or Israeli Arab or Palestinian citizens. They just love the game, and don’t want it to stop.
December 29th, 2008 at 6:00 am
Tom Segev, Israeli “New Historian”, writing in the liberal Ha’aretz daily newspaper in Israel:
December 29th, 2008 at 6:08 am
Like 9/11?
December 29th, 2008 at 7:52 am
People need to stop assuming that the lies Israel issues to justify its actions are anything but lies.
This is not an attack to stop the minor missiles from Gaza. That’s bullshit.
This is an attack to bolster the sagging Israeli administration and to set the bounds for the incoming Israeli and US administrations. It’s entirely political.
It’s also just another step in the decades long effort to drive the Palestinians completely out of Palestine.
A Zionist does not open his mouth except to lie. Stop granting Zionists any intellectual integrity at all. They have none.
Israel as a enclave of Zionist freaks must be destroyed. The UN must reverse its decision of 1947 (which it had no legal right to implement as its own commission to study that very question admitted), dissolve the Israeli government and replace it with a Palestinian government.
December 29th, 2008 at 8:07 am
Re Richard Steven Hack
People need to realize that Mr. Hack, the blogs resident ex-con, has, on at least 2 occasions to my certain knowledge, advocated the assassination of police officers. However, with Mr. Hack, its all hot air. When he had to opportunity to make good on his advocacy at the time he was arrested after his latest bank robbing escapade, he surrendered meekly to police officers who placed him under arrest as he tried to board a bus with his loot.
December 29th, 2008 at 9:29 am
“Never happens because thugs like Marty and Sheldon Adeleson have the Americas by the tits. Zionists financed imperialism is alive and well in the US.”
It’s totally mind-boggling the amount of bullshit paid ARAMCO thugs like “Farid” can spew in a matter of minutes.
Dude, stop embarrassing yourself and go read a book on the subject. You come off as a gigantic douchebag whenever you post a comment.
Oh, and also learn how to speak English properly, and try abstaining from epithets that indicate your contempt for the vagina. And do learn to concoct your conspiracy theories in a more articulate fashion. The publishers of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion might be impressed by your guttaral croaks but Edward Said would definitely not be.
December 29th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Well, it seems that the facts of the matter are pretty obvious.
Fact: The attacks by Israel have no real strategic or tactical military utility.
Fact: The attacks primarily affect the civilian population.
Conclusion: The attacks are directed against the civilian population with the objective of terrorizing and abusing them.
Ergo: War crimes.
Yawn, so what else is new. Nothing to see, move on. It’s not like anyone is actually going to do anything. Israel doesn’t have the necessary will yet to extirpate the Palestinians of Gaza. It does have the will to starve them, deny them medicine, cripple their economy, and lock them into a prison camp. It does have the will to bomb them freely. Given that treatment, the Palestinians don’t really have any motivation except to cobble together the occasional bullshit missile and send it over the border. That’s just human nature. I don’t see anything changing for the forseeable future. Israel has all the power and will release nothing. The Palestinians have nothing, but refuse to simply die off. They lack the courtesy of America’s Indians.
I still think that Ohlmert could act more cost effectively by simply beating a child to death on live TV.
December 29th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Danceswithgoats:
“I will assume that you are outraged at the deaths of Israelis from Palestinian rockets?”
Tell you what: go do a Google search and find out how many Israelis were killed by the rocket attacks that provoked this latest massacre. Come back and tell us your results!
December 29th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Israel is simply doing what Hamas wanted. The rocket attacks, while militarily inconsequential, were meant to provoke an Israeli response. (And for Hamas’s leadership, the cilivian deaths are not a bug, but a feature.) The point is to weaken Isral politically and poison the prospects for peaceful settlement. In fact, the rocket attacks are win/win for Hamas. If Isreal doesn’t respond, it looks weak. If Isreal does respond, Arab anger at Israel make regional governments even less likely to take the political risks that a peace settlement would entail, hard-line Netanyahu becomes more likely to win the upcoming Israeli election, and the incoming Obama will have a harder time brokering serious peace talks. The last thing Hamas wants is to be isolated as the pro-war party when other players are coming together to negotiate. Better to make sure there are no serious negotiations. One last thing. Of course the Israeli response is disproportionate. Of course the Palestinian people are dispossessed and stateless. But if the political center of gravity in Palestine wanted a settlement based roughly on the 1967 borders, it would have happended 30 years ago. The conflict goes on because the Palestinian political center of gravity–or a least a political blocking plurality–has maximalist aims.
December 29th, 2008 at 10:48 am
How much skepticism does it take to disbelieve that chickens can retreat back into the eggs that they came out of? To disbelieve that time flows backward?
Probably about the same amount of skepticism as it takes to believe that the “motivation” Palestinians have for launching attacks didn’t precede the blockade put in place afterward to prevent or mitigate them. The same blockade that had to work around all the tunnels built between Gaza and Egypt for smuggling missiles into Hamastan in the first place.
December 29th, 2008 at 10:55 am
I’ll briefly belabor a point. No government in the world would tolerate repeated, frequent rocket attacks on its citizens, even if they were militarily inconsequential. If they were landing on your town, every one of you would demand that your government take action. This simple point is quite apart from one’s view on the Palestinian’s political and humanitarian grievances.
December 29th, 2008 at 11:47 am
They don’t care what would in the real world lead to better conditions for Israelis and Palestinians, just like the freak fakers who justified their blowing up of Iraq as though they gave the slightest damn about actual Iraqi lives and the possible consequences of their thrilling decisions upon them but my home is http://www.makkale.blogcu.com go in !
December 29th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Matt, funny, the U.S. expects Turkey not to incurse in Northern Iraq in spite of being attacked by Guerillas from bases in Northern Iraq. The U.S. expects India not to attack Pakistan for hosting guerilla groups that attack Kashmir. Afghanistan has never been allowed to incurse against Pakistan for hosting guerilla groups. The Lebanese army would be wiped out by U.S. arms if it invaded Israel for Israel´s repeated invasions of Lebanon, as well as keeping pieces of its sovereign territory.
On the other hand, if Israel were blockaded by the Arab states and denied food, I imagine that you would write something like, no nation in the world would not attack the blockaders under this circumstance.
The logic of justifying Israel´s overwrought militarism and its tolls of the dead, has long been hollow. The question is: why does the EU and the US refuse to use their leverage and reign in this out of control state? A state on the verge of electing the Israeli equivalent of the Hamas, Netenyahu?
December 29th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Re roger
I really laugh at the vilification of Bibi by Mr. roger. Based on his previous sojourn as PM of Israel and his knuckling under to Sharon as Finance Minister, I will bet that he won’t go to the bathroom without getting permission from President Osama.
December 29th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
I don’t know about Freddie, but I certainly am outraged by the deaths of Israelis from rocket attacks since Hamas took over Gaza – all three of them. I’m even outraged at the 12 Israelis who were killed by various rocket and mortar attacks in the six years before Hamas took over.
However, I would think that the 400-500 Palestinians that were killed either in prevention or response to those attacks, previous to this latest operation, would have been sufficient.
December 29th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Robert Fisk, in the Independent, clearly failing to be manly enough.
December 29th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
New Israeli Premier, must show strength, must attack somebody. Present from Hamas to new Premier, call off the cease fire. Hamas gets to be savior and protector of victims, she shows strength, both political entities gain. Repeat every few years. In Israel and Gaza that’s politics as usual.
December 29th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Tompkins is right. No Israeli leader supporting these attacks cares what positive or negative effects it will have on Israeli security. And no Hamas leaders care that it is shredding the very survivability of Gazans. It’s all a game to keep the militarists’ game going.
December 29th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
If Peretz holds this view for more than six hours, he really should call a doctor.
December 29th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
U.N. Observer
How much Israelis bribe you look the other way while they demolished Palestinian homes?
When you see yourself in the mirror, do you see a pile of stinking shit?
December 29th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
“Oh, and also learn how to speak English properly”
Fair enough.
Let me try again. How much do you charge to turn a blind eye for every Palestinian home Israelis demolish? how much do you charge to ignore the Palestinian women Israelis rape? how much do you charge to look the other way while Israelis bomb a Palestinian school?
Name your price you worthless scumbag.
December 29th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
The above comment was directed at “U.N. Observer” who gets paid by both Israeli government and AIPAC.
A true exemplary douchenozzle.
December 29th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Hamas needs to leave Jerusalem all togeather. It is their land. I wouldnt let those Hamas haters launch rockets at me…
Push all of them clean out of Israel, and the problem will be gone.
Why dont the cowards in the Gazza strip attack Hamas? One guy didn’t wnat a rocket launcher next to his house, so Hamas shot him. If you dont believe like they do, they feel they have the right to kill you. They need to all leave planet earth. I wish we could speed their departure. Best of luck to Israle. God blesses thoes who bless the Jews, and curses thoes who curse the jews.
Please God, curse Hamas.
December 29th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
As for claims that the bombing “won’t do any good”:
The 2006 Lebanon attacks were intended to stop the daily barrage of rockets into northern Israel. The campaign is overall considered a catastrophe by Israelis, but did accomplish one rather important thing: it completely stopped missiles penetrating the northern border.
I am not advocating this kind of short-term thinking, nor do I think either campaign was very strategically smart. But for their narrow objective, this type may prove effective again.
December 29th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
“I am not advocating this kind of short-term thinking”
So what is your advocating you hate monger bitch?
December 29th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
By the way, SLC, just to set the record straight, there’s a difference between ASSASSINATING cops, and getting one’s ass shot up for no good reason when one is in a tactically untenable situation – such as being on a bus.
But a gutless punk like you can’t make those fine distinctions.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:42 am
Actually, Lia, I don’t believe your correct in your statements regarding the Lebanese war of 2006.
There was not a continuing barrage of rockets from Lebanon prior to the war. There were a series of tit for tat exchanges every few months along the Lebanese border. As to who was at fault, that depends on who was taking revenge for what, and how far back you track it all. Certainly Israel lobbed its share of missiles, artillery and sniper fire into Lebanon, and Hezbollah did its part. Who started it and who is to blame is a schoolyard game.
During the conflict, Hezbollah deployed between 3900 and 4200, mostly Katyusha rockets upon Israel. 20% of these fell in inhabited areas. A handful of longer range rockets were launched.
After the war, there were continuing incidents, though milder, including missiles fired by unknown parties in November 2007, and various violations of airspace.
Anyway, while there’s some truth to your assertion, it’s hardly so clearcut.
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