Attack on Gaza
The Israeli government, seemingly dissatisfied with the results of their earlier effort to just make life as miserable as possible for residents of the Gaza strip went and killed a couple of hundred people in retaliatory airstrikes. The strikes were in response to Hamas’ habit of launching indiscriminant rocket fire from Gaza land, though how exactly these strikes are supposed to stop the rockets is mysterious to me. Less mysterious is the idea that the Kadima-Labour coalition wants to “look tough” and beat off the political challenge from Bibi Netanyahu and the Likud.
That, in turn, is a reminder that I just don’t think the parties to the conflict are capable of reaching a settlement without strong external pressure. The internal political logic of both sides defaulting to hawkish extremes is just too strong. On the Israeli side, “strong external pressure” could, in principle, come from the United States were we to have an administration that recognized the necessity of playing such a role.
211 Responses to “Attack on Gaza”
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December 27th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Deaths from Gaza-launched rockets in the last few weeks: 0
Deaths from Israeli Army strikes in the last couple of days: “a couple of hundred people”
Who are the terrorists?
December 27th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Again, the blood-thirty Israelis engage in an orgy of killing innocent civilians who had absolutely nothing to do with the Qassam attacks. And the deaths of women and children are of no consequence to the people of this morally bankrupt nation.
Instead of exposing its military to any danger with a ground attack, Israel carried out these attacks in the most cowardly way possible – by using its jets and attack helicopters against a foe absolutely defenceless against them. That there would be massive civilian deaths resulting from this cowardly form of attack, again is utterly inconsequential to these monsters.
It may be two years, ten years or twenty years, but all Israelis know, in their hearts of hearts, that the day of reckoning will come.
December 27th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Classic Israeli default logic, respond to potentially damaging attacks with devastating retorts. That’s the a reason why the US (prior to the W era) launched “proportional” responses, to avoid unnecessary escalation.
Of course, the goal of this behavior (on both sides) is simple, to consolidate and retain power. Any Palestinian leader who advocates peace will be marginalized or eliminated, any Israeli leader who doesn’t respond to an attack with a ten-fold or hundred-fold stronger response will be defeated by their right wing. Until there is a leader with the power and popularity to break the cycle, there’s no point for the US to mediate (although with our massive support of Israel, we are always intervening).
December 27th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I support Israel’s self-defense.
Perhaps the retaliatory strikes, if they sting enough, will sap the Palestinians’ enthusiasm to shoot rockets at Israeli towns.
December 27th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
While I largely agree with Crusty Dem, why has no one mentioned as pertinent that Hamas called an end to it’s “cease fire” with Israel and was already increasing attacks? In response Israel is hitting targets of Hamas power.
Hamas wants more war with Israel and got its wish. There’s a difference when Hamas is actually in power in Gaza in that government facilities and personnel are legitimized as targets.
December 27th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
This is actually a indication of the serious problems within the Israeli political system. Given that Israel is a prosperous, first-world, democratic country, it is truly disappointing that it has such awful political parties.
The same would not have been possible under the much more stable Westminster, first-past-the-post parliamentary system, as opposed to the unstable Italian-Israeli one. A good, long-term political party would be difficult to dislodge in the Westminster system, based simply on trivial rhetoric and preferences.
I think for there to be any sort of coherence from the Israeli political leadership, the constant threat of loss of power has to be reduced to a much more infrequent and decisive degree, so that the leadership could make some hard but important decision.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
An eye for an eye? How about 384 eyes for no eyes. Israel and the US continue to think war is the answer. It didn’t work in Lebanon and it won’t work in Gaza. In the eyes of some radical Palestinians, occupation or imprisonment in Gaza deserves some form of resistance so they lob a few rockets and mortars over the border that kill no Israelis and damage some property. In Israel’s eyes only Israeli suffering counts. So retaliation is disproportionate in the extreme. A couple soldiers are kidnapped and they invade Lebanon. Now a similar response in Gaza. Will this improve the security of Israel? Will the world see it as justifiable? Will it improve the peace process? How long will it take to realize that more war is not the answer? How long will it take to realize that the occupation is the source of their problems?
December 27th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
There’s a difference when Hamas is actually in power in Gaza in that government facilities and personnel are legitimized as targets.
Hamas doesn’t “control” anything. The Israeli government is responsible for trade, security and border control in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Although many Arab people can’t vote in Israeli elections, that government is the authority controlling their everyday lives.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Also, Crusty’s point about the political dynamics is why the US, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia need to reach an agreement to hold the Israeli’s and Palestinian’s feet to the fire and change the political dynamic. The stupidity of supporting whatever Israel did during the Bush years was not the help Israel needed to actually solve its problems.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Perhaps the retaliatory strikes, if they sting enough, will sap the Palestinians’ enthusiasm to shoot rockets at Israeli towns.
Or perhaps equipping the Palestinians with helicopter gunships might encourage serious negotiation on a final settlement. No? And if you truly support Israel’s self-defense, an IDF callup awaits you. Get on the fucking plane.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
“Hamas doesn’t “control” anything.”
Can’t argue with ignorance this bold.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Chet:
Disagree if you want with Israeli policy, but resorting to anti-semitic language like “blood-thirsty Israelis” doesn’t strengthen your argument. It makes you sound like a bigot. Your logic has no merit whatsoever. Using jets is cowardly? Excuse me but war is about winning, not sending in soldiers to appear brave in the eyes of blogger-hawks, the lowest form of all.
Why0Why:
Actually there have been several deaths, including one yesterday, a man in Netivot.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Here’s my suggestion for those who insist on a “proportional” response, whatever that means: I think we should create a group of people from the international community, and some of the respondents on this site, whose job it will be to ensure proportionality. If Hamas succeeds in slaughtering lots of Jews with its increasingly powerful missiles, no problem. On the other hand, if only a few Israelis are killed despite continuous shelling, it will be the job of this international group to help Hamas kill Israelis until a sufficient number have been killed to justify an Israeli response. In this way, the moral evenhandedness of the international community will be maintained.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Stephen,
I see your point, but with a problem that requires so much time to solve I tend to think any form of democracy would fall into the same destructive pattern. When attacked, the mass of voters want retaliation. What democratic government in the world could retain power while not forcefully retaliating to constant rocket attacks?
December 27th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Perhaps the retaliatory strikes, if they sting enough, will sap the Palestinians’ enthusiasm to shoot rockets at Israeli towns.
Perhaps not.
After the initial airstrikes, which also wounded about 600 Palestinians, dozens of rockets struck southern Israel. Thousands of Israelis hurried into bomb shelters amid the hail of rockets, including some longer-range models that reached farther north than ever before. One Israeli man was killed in the town of Netivot and four were wounded, one seriously.
No doubt, there’s someone in Gaza right now saying, “Perhaps the retaliatory bombings, if they sting enough, will sap the Israelis’ enthusiasm to shoot rockets into the Gaza Strip.”
December 27th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
“Blood-thirsty Israelis” is anti-semitic? Give it a rest.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
What democratic government in the world could retain power while not forcefully retaliating to constant rocket attacks?
Can you point me to when the British government called in airstrikes on Donegal after cross-border mortar attacks by the IRA on army bases and police stations?
Oh, that’s different, isn’t it? Ireland is an independent state rather than a ghetto.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
I support Israel’s self-defense.
Me, too, but only to the degree that it’s done within nonracist human rights standards and isn’t being totally stupid about swinging at catspaws like Lebanon attacks have been.
What do you think would happen to your neighborhood and your particular way of thinking if the authorities started dealing with murders there by launching missile attacks in response? What about if one of your buddies or neighbors is hurt badly or killed?
Perhaps the retaliatory strikes, if they sting enough, will sap the Palestinians’ enthusiasm to shoot rockets at Israeli towns.
…except, they’ve already failed to sap anybody but the Palestinian center for decades now. I hope you’ll think about this a bit.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
The idea that bothers me most about this is that those are American-supplied aircraft and rockets.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
pragmatic idealist,
I understand your point, but under either the German and Dutch (Polder) systems there would have been at least some sort of across-the-board consensus on a course of action. Right now there is very little evidence of that in Israeli politics.
And in Britain, the Labour government, despite being massively unpopular, is still in power and would continue to be until 2010. That is the sort of political resilience that I have never seen in Israeli politics. Of course, it is entirely another question whether the Labourites should in fact be still in power given how unpopular they are, I think this sort of political fallback from crass populism would be greatly appreciated in the Levant.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
I find it interesting that some seem to believe that Israel has never tried any other approach than war with the Palestinians. It seems like the Camp David accords, which Arafat intentionally flushed down the toilet, have gone down the memory hole for some. Palestine had the opportunity to start down the path of becoming an independent nation. They rejected that because every one of their demands was not met at that very moment. It was a classic case of pride and anger over practicality and doing the hard work of making a future. (Violent venting is much easier than nation building.)
It also seems to be forgotten than Israel, despite strong internal dissent, dismantled settler’s communities in Gaza and pulled out. Instead of leading towards peace, the Palestinians destroyed the greenhouses that were left behind intact which could have provided jobs for their people and started lobbing rockets into Israel.
I simply don’t see that Israel has ever had a credible partner to negotiate with. They certainly don’t have one now.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Perhaps the retaliatory strikes, if they sting enough, will sap the Palestinians’ enthusiasm to shoot rockets at Israeli towns.
Your use of the word “perhaps” makes me think you don’t even buy your own bullshit here.
Look at the photos/videos from Gaza right now. Tell me, do the people you see there look like they’re taking the complex, multi-step thought-process that blaming this destruction on Hamas requires? Or, instead, does it look like they want bloody vengeance?
December 27th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
You convinced me, LFC.
Israeli airstrikes really ARE effective.
Awesome idea, this was. Everything’s going to be a-ok from now on.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
What about Condi’s big peace push this year. (Gag) As late as October she was talking hopefully. The question is, is she stupid, a liar or delusional? If there are other options let me know.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Actually, I think it is hilarious to criticize Israel’s government for whoring –given that Israel is striking at this time because the period around a US Election is when No US politician will criticize Israeli aggression for fear of being destroyed by the Israel Lobby. See McKinney, Cynthia. See Dean, Howard.
Usually, shit like this happens in the two months before the Election. We have a special case now — the President in power is almost universally despised and will be leaving shortly whereas the newly elected President has not yet assumed power.
Moreover, Bush has whored for the Israeli lobby almost as much as he has whored for Big Oil. Meanwhile Hillary the Whore is Obama’s designated Secretary of State.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
You convinced me, Joe from Lowell. If Israel simply made nice and did everything the PLO and Hamas had demanded over the years … PONIES!
I guess the next step is to throw the border wide open and dismantle all the checkpoints. After all, they didn’t cause the number of suicide bombings against Israelis to plummet. Oh, wait. Yes they did.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
pseudonymous in nc,
Oh yes, that one mortar attack is the equivalent of years of rocket attacks. You’ve proved my point by having to reach so far to find anything analogous.
Stephen,
OK, your point about forcing a consensus across political parties is correct, but outside of massive outside political pressure, even a change to Israel’s political system is unlikely to have any effect. But, if a small difference years ago might have.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
If Israel simply made nice and did everything the PLO and Hamas had demanded over the years … PONIES!
The difference, of course, is that while I never gave even the slightest indication of supporting the position you attributed to me – “did everything the PLO and Hamas had demanded over the years” – you actually did argue for the position I attributed to you, the launching of airstrikes.
I’m perfectly willing to acknowledge that – what was the silly term you used again? “Making nice and doing what the PLO demands?” would not well serve Israel. Now, your turn: you think you’re drawn a very clever parallel here, so let’s see if it hods up. All you have to do is agree that airstrikes like this do not serve Israel well, and are unlikely to produce peace and security.
It’s either that, or your entire rebuttal ceases to make sense.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
pseudonymous in nc said:
“Or perhaps equipping the Palestinians with helicopter gunships might encourage serious negotiation on a final settlement.”
You don’t go far enough. Give Hamas nuclear weapons and I guaratee that the whole problem will disappear.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Oh yes, that one mortar attack is the equivalent of years of rocket attacks.
Oh yes, “that one mortar attack” was curious in that it happened hundreds of times, including a few on Heathrow Airport and one on 10 Downing Street. Thanks for being astoundingly ignorant.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
I guess the next step is to throw the border wide open and dismantle all the checkpoints.
Right, because there is no imaginable strategy that falls between the abandonment of all defenses and the rocketing of occupied apartment buildings. None. At all. Either you rocket apartment buildings, or you don’t have any security force at all.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
“Oh yes, “that one mortar attack” was curious in that it happened hundreds of times, including a few on Heathrow Airport and one on 10 Downing Street. Thanks for being astoundingly ignorant.”
Please cure my ignorance by giving details on the cross border mortar attacks on Heathrow and 10 Downing Street and hundreds of others.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
This thread is clearly going to run away, but as long as the people remain this blind then there is no reason why the Israelis have any reason whatsoever to do anything different. They hold all the power and get perpetually encouraged so nothing changes. Until we stop the absurd double standard the situation will remain hopelessly stuck.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
The cross-border attacks from the Republic, p.i., were numerous. The Great Gazoogle will provide. If you’re going to claim internet argument victory by quibbling about “cross-border” for the mainland attacks, then well done you. [golf clap]
December 27th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
pseudonymous in nc,
Mighty Google has indeed provided me with the goods. I only remembered one cross border mortar attacks, but it seems there were more like 100. While the difference in scale is narrowed, the two big differences are that Ireland took real measures to try to stop the attacks as opposed to Hamas which is conducting the attacks. Plus, the vast majority of Irish attacks on the British were intended not to kill anyone. Hamas publicly states its desire to kill as many Israelis as possible.
But, to climb out of the weeds for a moment, British restraint was commendable. Perhaps the British would have done a better job in Israel’s place.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
“I never use terms like balance of power. But I think that even the person doing the kicking has to ask himself how long he can go on kicking? At some point your leg is going to get tired. One day you’ll wake up and ask, ‘What the fuck am I doing?’
“In my opinion, not enough people in Israel have woken up to that understanding. In my reading of the last 100 years, there has been an assumption on the Israeli-Zionist side that if we fight hard enough, and beat them down long enough and if we erect enough walls and if we make it hard for them in every way possible, they will give up.”
December 27th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
I am tired tired tired of coddling the militaristic wing of the Israeli right and the crazy Jesus freaks here in the US. From what I understand from my best friend who travels to Israel often with her Temple (lost a major charity to Madoff, btw), there are a LOT of Israelis who agree with me.
And criticizing Israel is not endorsing Hamas, for all the bedwetters out there.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
The problem is unsolvable because the modern world simply has no other model for what happened there. A state, of sorts, Palestine, was invaded and taken over. Modern history has rendered the conquering of territory and displacing it populace archaic. Except here because of special historic circumstance.
Only Nazi Germany proposed such a thing in modern history. In regard to Russia. Hitler wanted to effect a final solution for all Slavs. It didn’t happen of course.
In ancient times a populace might simply be largely killed off. The Palestinians, stateless, have failed to surrender entirely or admit to being conquered. In part because such seems impossible in modern times. Germany and Japan were largely destroyed in WWII and yet they exist today whole. It’s simply beyond the conception of modern people to imagine absolute and total defeat.
The next step should be for the Palestinians to abandon the attempt to form a state. Such a state would not be viable in any case. With no resources, even water. No economy to think of and little prospect for one. No continuous territory.
No, better to embrace a greater Israel, and wait.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
LFC, it’s high time that many of you neo-cons own up to a couple of sobering realities:
1. Simple demographics. Israel’s population growth severely lags behind the Palestinians as well as most of their neighbors. They’re badly outnumbered, and that’s not going to change anytime soon.
2. The only reason they’ve been able to militarily hold off Syria and militant forces in Lebanon is because of their peace treaty with Egypt. Once Mubarak is gone, that agreement is gone and lo and behold another front opens in their permawar.
3. The US really should stop viewing the Middle East as the most strategic place on earth. We import the majority of our oil from CANADA. The next time a bridge collapses in the US or a city drowns because FEMA is ill-equipped, remember the trillions of dollars we’ve poured into Israel, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia over the years.
4. The main reason the US is a target of AQ is not because they hate our freedom, it’s because we help Israel slaughter thousands of Muslims a year in utterly disproportionate attacks like today’s. It’s time for the US to get out of the Israel business once and for all.
5. By the way, withdrawing support from Israel is not anti-semitism, it’s an acknowledgement that the Israeli regime is completely out of control and thoroughly disinterested in making the really hard choices that peace demands. If not for nutball Christian fanatics in the GOP, the US wouldn’t be giving such carte blanche to despicable attacks such as the one today.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
I thought most of the middle eastern countries were created in the first half of the twentieth century after being mostly colonized for centuries. Israel is unique in the number of immigrants that came in from outside the area.
All historical claims are slippery since most land has been conquered and reconquered over the years.
I’m more optimistic about Palestine being a viable state. It has not been in the interests of other Arab countries to actually help them to form a country but those interests are changing and a real effort at long term diplomacy will work eventually. Hopefully in the twenty-first century.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I’m going to touch the third rail here, but what exactly are we getting out of our relationship with Israel? It’s an awfully one-sided relationship, in which the US gets very little in return, apart from having a billion or so Muslims hate us to our core. If Spain had launched an airstrike that killed a couple hundred Basque civilians, would everyone be cheering and saying “good job” and puffing up Spanish toughness? Hell no, we’d be appalled at the utterly disproportionate reaction and unjustifiable loss of life.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Pete said: “2. The only reason they’ve been able to militarily hold off Syria and militant forces in Lebanon is because of their peace treaty with Egypt. Once Mubarak is gone, that agreement is gone and lo and behold another front opens in their permawar.”
Israel managed to survive through decades of war before the Egyptian peace treaty despite being vastly outnumbered. Raw numbers mean very little in warfare. Israel is in better shape militarily and its neighbors are in worse shape than before the treaty.
December 27th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Here’s my guess:
Each Gaza resident dead in the Israeli attacks begets ten new suicide bombers.
December 27th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Pragmatist,
I wouldn’t be so sure that Israel is necessarily in better shape militarily than their neighbors. Their recent invasion of Lebanon was a pretty crushing military failure. As has been shown, it’s pretty difficult to militarily defeat an insurgency. A helicopter gunship isn’t going to stop every suicide bomber. Putting up larger and larger walls and implementing racially based checkpoints isn’t going to stop every attack.
Frankly, if not for the US propping up the Israeli military with both funds and equipment, they’d fall pretty quickly. After the debacle in Iraq, I honestly don’t believe that the US public is EVER going to support the US having to formally enter into war alongside Israel the next time they suffer a multifront attack.
You are naive beyond belief if you think that Egypt tearing up the Camp David treaty after Mubarak dies isn’t going to have a serious consequence.
I’m sorry, but I can’t defend this atrocity today, and if any other country but Israel had done this, neither would you.
December 27th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
The proponents of proportionality are
out in force today.
Every Hamas member is a legitimate
target.
December 27th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
No offense, Ron, but Israel didn’t kill “Hamas members” today, they slaughtered innocent civilians. That’s technically a war crime.
December 27th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
While the difference in scale is narrowed, the two big differences are that Ireland took real measures to try to stop the attacks as opposed to Hamas which is conducting the attacks.
That’s true in part, though there remain splinter operatives in Monaghan and Donegal who escape justice. (And of course, reinvented hawks like Peter King were passing the hat for Noraid at the time of the attacks.)
Out of the weeds, though: you’ve got settler nutbags running rampage in the West Bank who get handled with kid gloves during election season, you’ve got Hamas nutbags firing rockets into the distance, and you’ve got a million and a half people in Gaza who are now guinea pigs for a “starve them into playing nice” approach that worked so well in the past.
December 27th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
All targets were Hamas strong points.
And it’s not like we didn’t kill
thousands of civilians in Serbia,
Afghanistan and Iraq.
December 27th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Pete,
You’re mixing apples and oranges. The chance of Israel’s neighbors conquering Israel was deemed likely in 1948 by most observers and was still deemed likely in 1973 by the countries that attacked Israel. At this point only zealots still believe it can happen. The Israelis cannot be conquered by conventional warfare, and conventional warfare is what it would take to actually invade and take over the country.
Asymmetric warfare, on the other hand, which goal is to prolong conflict indefinitely cannot be stopped by conventional forces no matter how strong they are.
December 27th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
My god! SLC hasn’t even shown up yet to yelp blissfully about “Hama Rulez!”
December 27th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
pseudonymous in nc,
I’m with you on the settlers. The US should have withheld aid and taken other measures until the settlements were dismantled. That’s one area where pressure might have changed the political calculus in Israel and improved prospects for peace.
December 27th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Gee, Ron, when Obama CORRECTLY pointed out that we were killing more civilians in Afghanistan than Taliban, people like Hannity and Rush were blistering him for “disparaging the troops”, “slandering the mission”, etc. So, if it’s ok for us to kill civilians because its ok for Israel to kill civilians, then I guess the apology from Rush and Hannity will be forthcoming?
By the way, didn’t you GOPers bitterly condemn our involvement in Serbia because of the civilian deaths?
December 27th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
So, Pragmatist, what EXACTLY do we get out of this relationship with Israel?
December 27th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
“So, Pragmatist, what EXACTLY do we get out of this relationship with Israel?”
What do we get from any friendly country?
Israel shares trade, technology, intelligence, military skill and cooperates in diplomacy. We use them to test weapons systems. The army completely rewrote combat doctrine based on Israeli innovations.
Like any other friendly country, we should oppose them when our interests or judgments are in conflict and sometimes cut them some slack. Backing them no matter what they do is stupid and not in either of our interests.
December 27th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
External pressure to reach a settlement? That’s such a typical and utterly vapid response to these events. Yes, the U.S. can bring pressure to bear upon Israel. But who will bring the Palestinians to the table? Who will bring Hamas?
It seems that because Israel is the one party to the conflict who responds to external pressure, then the solution lies in pressuring Israel. People don’t seem to accept the idea that there is, and will be, conflict so long as both sides choose not to engage in it.
It’s like the Iraq fallacy all over again. The Iraq fallacy: (i) something must be done about 9-11; (ii) Iraq is “something”; ergo (iii) we should do Iraq. Here, it’s: (i) something must be done to reach peace; (ii) pressuring Israel is “something”; ergo (iii) Israel must be pressured.
Matt appears totally blind to this. Not every problem could be solved by U.S. meddling. Just ask any Iraqi.
December 27th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
What struck me as particularly cruel about this attack was the targeting of police cadets at a graduation ceremony in broad daylight. I’d argue most of those men had little or no attachment to Hamas ideology; with the utter collapse of the Palestinian economy, entering the security forces would make an attractive proposition for many young Palestinians.
If a police station were bombed in Israel, Europe, or in the United States it would immediately, and rightfully, be condemned as an act of terrorism.
December 27th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
I’m pretty appalled by the comments on both sides here. First,
David (55) – would you agree that while pressuring Israel and bombing Iraq into the stone age are both examples of “doing something”, these two actions are not in fact comparable? That a genuinely positive outcome might come from pressuring the Israeli government (and the Palestinians as well)?
Second, to those pushing the proportionality argument: do you have any doubts that the hundreds of rockets fired into Israel were intended to kill Israelis? If Israel had waited for its own civilian toll to mount before launching this attack, would it be more sound morally? If so, why do adding dead Israelis to the equation make it a more acceptable situation?
Third, as someone who fully supported the withdrawal from Gaza and is hoping for a two-state solution, I still must ask the visceral critics here: what exactly should Israel have done in light of the constant missile attacks, fired by a Hamas government openly committed to its destruction? Seriously, i would welcome suggestions.
December 27th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
57- The point is, there are limits to American power, and most people in this country, Left and Right, refuse to accept this reality.
Pressuring the Israelis to ‘do something’ can only yield so much results. On the settlement front, this is obviously necessary and desirable.
On the retaliation front- we’re in agreement. What, exactly, should Israel have done? What could the US have asked them to do? Why would pressuring Israel not to respond to the attacks make an eventual peace more likely, given that this would hardly cause a resurgent Hamas to back down? Does the constant fear of the citizens of Sderot count for nothing? Had Israel launched a massive ground operation aimed at retaking the territory instead of airstrikes, would that have been morally more responsible? Why? What, pray tell, is the right answer?
December 27th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Re El Cid
I already called for Hama Rules on a previous thread in response to a comment by the boards resident Bolshevik, Mr. Don Williams. However, once again, the application of Hama Rules is the only language that the Hamas terrorists understand. The unfortunate fact is that the Hamas terrorists don’t give a flying fuck how many Fakestinians are killed; their attitude is the more that are killed, the better the propaganda value for Hamas.
If Hamas really wants to stop such attacks, their option is very simple. Stop firing Qassems and morters across the fence.
How about a quid pro quo here. Hamas agrees to cease and desist form all attacks against Israel, Israel agrees to lift the blockade against the Gaza Strip. Sounds like a fair deal to me.
December 27th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Laurence,
No, I don’t agree that pressuring Israel will lead to peace. My point was, and is, that this completely ignores the Arab side of the equation. People like Matt get hung up on pressuring Israel because that’s the the one thing within the U.S.’s power to do. So that becomes the solution even though it’s no solution at all. And my point isn’t that it’s comparable to bombing Iraq. It’s the flawed logic that’s comparable. And I use Iraq as the example because people like are fully capable of seeing this fallacy in something they support (opposition to the Iraq war), but not in the context of something they don’t (an understanding of the peace process that doesn’t lay the blame entirely on Israel).
December 27th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Laurence Passmore –
You have asked the most cogent questions so far on this thread, alluding to the bottom line, as I see it: that Israel faces an enemy whose decision-making process remains alien to most in the West. The perpetual Palestinian Arab war, not against the Israeli government, but against the entire population, is a very real and slow-motion genocide. All fueled by irrational Jihad. I cannot fault the Israelis for doing what they are doing, though it is deeply troubling to see. They have exhibited more patience than any country I can imagine, against an irrationally homicidal Gazan Arab entity.
December 27th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Why shouldn’t the US pressure Israel? Israel has all the power in the region, militarily. It fears no country, and controls every inch of Gaza and the West Bank. If there is ever a peace treaty, it will be granted by the Israeli government, since Palestinians have no power at all.
And before we debate whether the US should try and influence the actions of the Israeli government, perhaps we should consider first that American “aid” to Israel amounts to over 2 billion dollars a year. Why fund such a prosperous country?
December 27th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Rapier at #38 wrote my thoughts on the issue:
The problem is unsolvable because the modern world simply has no other model for what happened there. A state, of sorts, Palestine, was invaded and taken over. Modern history has rendered the conquering of territory and displacing it populace archaic. Except here because of special historic circumstance.
…
In ancient times a populace might simply be largely killed off. The Palestinians, stateless, have failed to surrender entirely or admit to being conquered. In part because such seems impossible in modern times. Germany and Japan were largely destroyed in WWII and yet they exist today whole. It’s simply beyond the conception of modern people to imagine absolute and total defeat.
The next step should be for the Palestinians to abandon the attempt to form a state. Such a state would not be viable in any case. With no resources, even water. No economy to think of and little prospect for one. No continuous territory.
No, better to embrace a greater Israel, and wait.
In my opinion, this conflict, like most conflicts throughout history, will be settled by violence and force. Eventually the political or economic environment will degenerate to the point that one side or the other will kill a million people and the rest will leave. I see two possible solutions to this conflict: 1) Israel ceases to exist as a Jewish nation; or 2) Israel gets rid of almost all the Arabs in the territories and Israel.
Rapier is right. This is a half-settled conflict. It will be decided in time, through violence and most likely mass death.
December 27th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
All fueled by irrational Jihad.
But of course killing 200 people is perfectly rational and proper.
December 27th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Lawrence,
I think the proportionality argument is a legitimate one; of course rockets fired out of Palestine are intended to kill Israeli’s, I don’t think anyone is disputing that. The issue I have with today’s attack is the apparent lack of a strategic target, leading one to conclude that the strike was either purely vindictive or politically-motived, neither of which should be acceptable.
If Palestinian rocket attacks are to be roundly, swiftly and rightfully denounced by the international community then so should daylight Israeli bombing raids on major population centers.
Israel has a right to respond, but it should be proportional; this attack will only mobilize Hamas and escalate the already critical situation.
December 27th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
it’s a shame that we just can’t carpet bomb the whole middle east, and end all this. once and for all.
December 27th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Laurence Passmore -
There was a truce in effect for about six month before Israel started violating this truce by assassinating few people in Gaza.
December 27th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
The difference, of course, is that while I never gave even the slightest indication of supporting the position you attributed to me – “did everything the PLO and Hamas had demanded over the years” – you actually did argue for the position I attributed to you, the launching of airstrikes.
First, Joe, my saying that the Palestinians have studiously refused to try to negotiate peace is not the saying that airstrikes are highly effective. Complaining about airstrikes without offering any other substitute, however, seems to be a blame Israel position to me.
Second, while airstrikes are not the end all be all, they do have a purpose. They break up the command structure of Hamas, preventing it from becoming a fully organized and effective fighting force. Imagine a fully armed and organized 100,000 man army under Hamas. Do you think this is “better” than what Israel faces now?
December 27th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Why oh why wrote:
“Why shouldn’t the US pressure Israel?”
Pressure Israel to do what, exactly/ Stop defending her citizens? Imagine Mexico bombarding San Diego and environs for five years with thousands of missiles intended to do one thing and one thing only: kill Israeli civilians. Would you pressure the US government to stand down and abrogate the most fundamental responsibility any government can have – that of defending the safety and security of its citizens? Can you possibly imagine the US waiting five years before taking action???
========================
“…(Israel) controls every inch of Gaza and the West Bank. If there is ever a peace treaty, it will be granted by the Israeli government, since Palestinians have no power at all.”
Seems the Gazan Arabs have enough power to manufacture and fire thousands of missiles for years. You should ask instead why the Gazan Arabs don’t simply stop bombarding Israeli population centers.
December 27th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
“that Israel faces an enemy whose decision-making process remains alien to most in the West.”
Yes the wogs are inscrutable in that way. Put the boot on their neck and somehow they find it enraging. If someone here could explain why that is, Orientalists everywhere would be grateful.
December 27th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Second, to those pushing the proportionality argument: do you have any doubts that the hundreds of rockets fired into Israel were intended to kill Israelis? If Israel had waited for its own civilian toll to mount before launching this attack, would it be more sound morally?
Yes.
December 27th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
“They break up the command structure of Hamas, preventing it from becoming a fully organized and effective fighting force.”
This sentence is quite possibly lighter than air.
December 27th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
“Yes the wogs are inscrutable in that way. Put the boot on their neck and somehow they find it enraging.”
So Hamas’s raison d’etre is’nt jihad and genocide? Odd how I actually take them at their word and deed, and you can’t or won’t. Gee, thanks for clearing that up and setting me straight.
You called them ‘wogs’, not me. I’m just calling them on their Islamist extremist terror regime. The fact that you will not makes my point.
December 27th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
nolaboyd Says:
Second, to those pushing the proportionality argument: do you have any doubts that the hundreds of rockets fired into Israel were intended to kill Israelis? If Israel had waited for its own civilian toll to mount before launching this attack, would it be more sound morally?
Yes.
==========================
Wow.
In your moral universe it would be better for more Israeli civilians to die…for what possible reason?
You need to write your equation out longhand. It might help you think it through.
December 27th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
LFC, it’s high time that many of you neo-cons own up to a couple of sobering realities:
Neo-con? That’s pretty funny. So now people who think Israel has the right to defend itself are neo-cons.
1. Simple demographics. Israel’s population growth severely lags behind the Palestinians as well as most of their neighbors. They’re badly outnumbered, and that’s not going to change anytime soon.
True, but what are their options?
2. The only reason they’ve been able to militarily hold off Syria and militant forces in Lebanon is because of their peace treaty with Egypt. Once Mubarak is gone, that agreement is gone and lo and behold another front opens in their permawar.
Not true, as pointed out above. They have a vastly superior military force.
3. The US really should stop viewing the Middle East as the most strategic place on earth. We import the majority of our oil from CANADA. The next time a bridge collapses in the US or a city drowns because FEMA is ill-equipped, remember the trillions of dollars we’ve poured into Israel, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia over the years.
You obviously have no concept of the world’s oil market if you don’t understand that a huge disruptions in Middle East oil would cause the price of Canadian oil to skyrocket. Until we get ourselves off of oil, the Middle East is of highly strategic importance. That’s why alternative forms of energy are so important.
4. The main reason the US is a target of AQ is not because they hate our freedom, it’s because we help Israel slaughter thousands of Muslims a year in utterly disproportionate attacks like today’s. It’s time for the US to get out of the Israel business once and for all.
You’d completely desert the only democracy in the Middle East? Interesting.
5. By the way, withdrawing support from Israel is not anti-semitism, it’s an acknowledgement that the Israeli regime is completely out of control and thoroughly disinterested in making the really hard choices that peace demands. If not for nutball Christian fanatics in the GOP, the US wouldn’t be giving such carte blanche to despicable attacks such as the one today.
And just what are the “hard choices”?
To dismantle settler communities? To get out of Gaza? It’s been done. It lead to an increase in rocket attacks.
To open up the checkpoints? They tried it. Suicide bombings skyrocketed.
So just what do you think Israel should do?
December 27th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
There are few CRIMINALS commenting on this webpage. Mass murder is not OK by any standards, be it when committed by jews. And by the way, the story did not start with Hamas firing few unaimed hand-made rockets, there is no point in recalling the dir Yassine massacres, right?
December 27th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
“I’m just calling them on their Islamist extremist terror regime. The fact that you will not makes my point.”
Yes, it follows straightforwardly.
You can call Hamas whatever you’d like but the fact remains that their “extremist” or more accurately, violent, ideology is a rather predictable consequence of a brutal decades long occupation. Correspondingly, their “decision making process” is quite intelligible.
As for genocidal, well, if Hamas manages to kill as many people in a decade as Israel did yesterday and today I’d be rather surprised.
December 27th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Random_moods: Deir Yassin was sixty years ago, has been roundly condemned by everyone, and has little bearing on Palestinian Arab actions today. You seem to think that everybody who supports Israel is of the opinion that Israelis have always had the moral high-ground since the beginning of time. Don’t make idiotic assumptions. And I suggest you mention context and stop pretending that Jews were not massacred by Arabs sixty years ago as well.
December 27th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Random_moods Says:
“…the story did not start with Hamas firing few unaimed hand-made rockets, there is no point in recalling the dir Yassine massacres, right?”
The missiles you speak of are aimed at Israeli farms, towns and cities. You think it’s a coincidence Hamas doesn’t fire them West into the Mediterranean? The fact that more Israelis haven’t been murdered by them is a good thing, although one would never know from the way you write about them. Would you change your tune if Hams had more effective weapons? What do you think Hamas would do if they had them? And they have fired more than five thousand of them. Is that “a few”? Sounds like there are never enough weapons created especially to murder Jews.
Right. There is no point in recalling Deir Yassin, except to shill for Hamas and what they are trying to do.
December 27th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
I don’t see how anyone can bring enough pressure on either side to settle the conflict now, let alone in the future. Israel will eventually be in charge of the world’s largest prison and not be able to close it.
December 27th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
a. wrote:
“As for genocidal, well, if Hamas manages to kill as many people in a decade as Israel did yesterday and today I’d be rather surprised.”
Actually, Hamas has murdered many more Israelis – deliberately, as a matter of policy.
The fact that you cannot understand the difference between Hamas’s codified and openly avowed goal of eradicating Israel (yes, that would be genocide) and Israel taking painful actions to defend her citizens from said jihadist terror group is astounding.
December 27th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Conor – I agree with what you wrote, but it seems you’re defining “proportionality” differently from others on this thread, who say it should be an eye for an eye. You argue that strikes on “strategic targets” would be legitimate, which is probably the right way to think of it, but of course defining a “strategic target” is problematic. I tend to think that attacks on the Hamas leadership and security forces are legitimate, but even here there are gray areas. Your previous comment about the cruelty of targeting young recruits of unknown ideological persuasion definitely struck a chord with me, especially after seeing so many Iraqi police recruits killed in the last several years.
David – I understand your point and partly share your frustration with the naivete of those who believe that if only Israel did X, we would have world peace. Still, while it’s true that when you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, that doesn’t mean we should throw away the hammer. If we only have leverage over Israel, by golly, let’s pressure them. Even this is conceding too much, though: we do in fact have some leverage over the Palestinians, and considerable influence over the Arab states they rely on. So my objection to your analogy stands: “doing something” in the context of US involvement in the Middle East peace process can mean any number of things, whereas bombing Iraq had only one conceivable outcome.
Davy – I’m not sure I can back up your chronology of events. Lots of things happen on both sides that don’t make the headlines. Israel recently shot three Palestinians trying to set plastic explosives on the border. Even if it were as you say, I think those details are irrelevant to the dynamics of this conflict. The missiles have been hitting Sderot for a long time now.
astalavista – I regret if i gave you the impression that I have any answers… I don’t know what I would do in Israel’s situation. In tallying up the day’s efforts, though, I would probably note that there are a lot of dead Palestinians, many of them innocent, and Israeli casualties where there weren’t any the day before. So unless these attacks were part of some grand strategy that will overthrow Hamas (unlikely), I would consider these bombings a strategic and moral failure.
December 27th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
LaurenceP, it’s not that the U.S. and others don’t have influence with either Israel or the Palestinians, it’s that neither the Israeli or Palestinian sides are able to settle what is now an intractable conflict. It’s not possible to pressure anyone into accepting what they absolutely do not want. The Palestinians are hopelessly riven by faction now while the Israelis are divided between the status-quoists and the even harder-liners. As neither side is able to prevail either, it’s a miserable stalemate as long as the game lasts. Which looks to be decades longer to me at least.
December 27th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
“deliberately, as a matter of policy.”
Which describes Israeli actions as well. Of course to you it isn’t killing but “painful actions”, which you’d defend ’til you’re blue because you’re a fanatic. And as a fanatic you choose to indulge in the fantasy that Hamas is a genocidal organization, intent on eradicating every last Jew, rather than what it is, a violent political party organized to provide resistance to the Israeli occupation of its territory and establish an independent Palestine. As such it’s decision making is not, as you say “alien” to civilized minds but completely intelligible, if often indefensible. Better for you, however, to disregard any and all context, thereby simplifying reality and excusing all manner of Israeli violence.
My last remark was stupid; I do take that back.
December 27th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
The blog post says one can’t imagine how the Israeli attacks are supposed to stop the Hamas rockets. Hmm… maybe by destroying the rocket factories, and killing the terrorists who make and launch the rockets? I’m no fan of the Israeli hard-liners, but if you keep launching rockets at Israel, day after day, you’re taking a risk.
December 27th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
a. wrote:
“deliberately, as a matter of policy.”
Which describes Israeli actions as well. Of course to you it isn’t killing but “painful actions”, which you’d defend ’til you’re blue because you’re a fanatic.”
You still do not seem to grasp the fundamental difference: Hamas seeks out Israeli civilians for murder, over and over again. That IS their policy, in the service of the larger goal of destroying an entire nation. That would be genocide, in spirit and in deed. Israeli actions are directed at combatants. It is not Israel’s fault that Hamas surrounds themselves with civilians. No other nation would allow itself to be held hostage by such tactics. Yet you hold Israel to a different (and unfair) standard. So to you I’m a fanatic because of what, exactly? I support the right of the government of Israel to take action (finally) to defend her citizens? Fine, call me a fanatic then.
=====================================
And as a fanatic you choose to indulge in the fantasy that Hamas is a genocidal organization, intent on eradicating every last Jew
I am a realist, and Hamas wouldn’t have to kill every last Jew to qualify them as genocidal. It’s enough they even try. It’s the thought that counts, but they back it up with a body count.
===================================
“…rather than what it is, a violent political party organized to provide resistance to the Israeli occupation of its territory and establish an independent Palestine…”
Mike Tyson is violent. Hamas is tactically homicidal, and strategically genocidal. They say so themselves. Read up on the Hamas Charter.
===============================
“As such it’s decision making is not, as you say “alien” to civilized minds but completely intelligible, if often indefensible.”
Now you say they are indefensible? Why the sudden switch when you were sounding like such a good shill?
===============================
“Better for you, however, to disregard any and all context, thereby simplifying reality and excusing all manner of Israeli violence.”
When did I excusle all manner of ‘Israeli violence”? What I’m saying is that war has been thrust upon Israel once again, and Israel has a moral obligation to fight back. It’s a war. It sucks. Innocent people get killed. The difference is that Hamas targets civilians. Israel targets Hamas. Hamas surrounds themselves with non-combatants. That is a war crime, by the way.
December 27th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
a. wrote:
“…rather than what it is, a violent political party organized to provide resistance to the Israeli occupation of its territory and establish an independent Palestine…”
Where have you been the last five years? Israel ethnically-cleansed itself out of Gaza. Remember that? There is not a single Jew left. No “occupation”, except by the Arabs. And don’t say the border-crossing closures are an “occupation”. If Hamas wasn’t firing rockets and planting bombs and shooting across the fence, there would be no closure; people and goods would flow both ways. So what, exactly, are the Gazan Arabs resisting? Israeli kindergarten kids in Sderot?
December 27th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Israel could turn Gaza into a firestorm that wouldn’t leave a dog alive, but instead they have repeatedly shown their willingness to accept a non-military solution. The romantics of Hamas have no interest in any plausible accommodation, preferring the aesthetics of the doomed warrior role. There is no good argument against that, as it is every man’s privilege to decide what kind of death he will have. The only tragedy here is that they are willing to take so many innocent residents of Gaza with them, a quantity limited only by Israeli restraint.
December 27th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
the unstable Italian-Israeli one
The electoral systems of Italy and Israel are so very different from each other that this “Italian-Israeli” formulation is nonsense.
December 27th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
a. wrote:
“Better for you, however, to disregard any and all context, thereby simplifying reality and excusing all manner of Israeli violence.”
————————–
FYI – Here’s your context (from Jerusalem Post):
Palestinians fired over 80 rockets and mortar shells at areas throughout the western Negev. In Netivot, 58-year-old Beber Vaknin was killed and five people were wounded – one seriously – when their house was hit by a rocket.
All the wounded were evacuated to Beersheba’s Soroka Hospital.
“After the first rocket landed, people wanted to see what had happened,” one of Vaknin’s neighbors told The Jerusalem Post on Saturday night. “He went outside to look around when the rocket hit, and he was killed by the shrapnel. The medics said the shrapnel pierced his heart.”
December 27th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Not to be simplistic, but doesn’t “proportionate response” the way most of you are defining it only guarantee escalating attacks? The point is to stop the Hamas attacks, optimally by disabling their ability to respond, or second-best by making the continued rocket attacks too expensive to continue doing.
And by the way, I doubt any of you would favor Israel responding by firing a few random rockets a la Hamas into populated areas.
The unstated goal behind most of Israel’s critics on this thread is international condemnation of any form of retaliation stronger than a letter of complaint. And of course, you will all get your wish.
December 27th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Palestinian charter still calls for the destruction of all of Israel so Palestinians shoot rockects & play war.
So now Israel will play war.
So Gazans will die.
So stop whining.
Want peace> change ur charter, stop teaching hate & being suicide bombers to ur children in ur schools, stop the rockets, u will have peace w/ Israel & u don’t die.
BTW. Either Israel did a good job or Hamas is scared b/c Hamas leaders are hiding again and Russia & the EU are begging Israel to stop.
December 27th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
If Hamas sends rockets into Isreal, Israel will fire back.
Got it?
If those brain dead Hamas warrior morons can’t figure that out, too bad.
December 27th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
For the anti-Israel crowd here, “proportional response” means whatever they want it to mean at the time, which adds up to “no response.”
In the real world, proportional response means proportional to THE TASK OF ENDING THE TERROR ATTACKS, not proportional to the attacks themselves. The rocket attacks have not ended. Ergo, the IDF’s response is still below the limits of proportionality.
December 27th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
“I am a realist”
But you’re not. You’re a partisan and a fanatic. You construct a completely unrealistic phantasm (a Hamas intent and capable of eradicating the Jews) and then use it as a justification for whatever actions Israel takes.
Actions such as…bombing dense population centers, with predictably high death civilian death tolls to predictably little effect. Of course, add those two propositions together: a) predictably high civilian casualties; b) predictably little military effect. Gee, “Hamas seeks out Israeli civilians for murder” you say, accurately. But if a) and b) are true, then perhaps something similar could be said of the Israelis. Of course they don’t make plain their intention (if it exists) and would deny ever having it. But then a government that employs techniques such as cluster bombing, leaving unexploded bomblets in high density civilian areas (from Haaretz: “What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs,” the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war)sort of hints otherwise.
There’s utility to killing civilians (see smirkles, comment four, above: “Perhaps the retaliatory strikes, if they sting enough, will sap the Palestinians’ enthusiasm to shoot rockets at Israeli towns.”) It’s a political technique. Hamas recognizes it; so do the Israelis. And yet neither are genocidal, just awful.
Anyway, these debates are like the conflict itself, but in comic miniature–intractable, increasingly pointless, but at least no one dies. I stopped “shilling” for Hamas because I realized that I could indeed be interpreted as apologizing, which is wrong, because I view their behavior as destructive, counter-productive and repugnant–the same judgment I make of Isreali. A similar realization would do you credit.
And with that I exit, to go do something fun.
December 27th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
oh no, here we go
December 27th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
It’s not about ending the rocket fire from Gaza. It’s about forcing a ceasefire on better terms than the one that just ended.
December 27th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
my favorite part of all these discussions as that we’ll blame Cuban-Americans for our foreign policy towards Cuba, but when it comes to explaining our position supporting Israel in its violence? Say that out loud and you’re labeled an anti-semite.
It’s very simple – Arab-Americans and other Muslim Americans who would be naturally sympathetic to their cause are too terrified by what happened to them after the Hostage Crisis, Gulf Wars, and 9/11 to speak up. Those who are naturally sympathetic to Israel have no such examples to teach them and thus are able to speak out loud. And if anyone accuses them of perhaps being biased by their ancestry (when that would only be natural, hey, I’m biased by my ancestry on this issue too) you’re accused of being an anti-semite, which is the ultimate slur.
If only there were a word so loaded you could use for those who are anti-Arab (let’s all ignore the fact that Palestinians are semitic of course). Such a word would be useful at times likes this.
December 27th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Peter H:
Yes, this is about forcing better terms to the cease fire. As in, forcing the fire to cease.
December 27th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
One last response, to
“FYI – Here’s your context:”
And here’s more: http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=25658&Cr=Palestin&Cr1
“Concluding a five-day visit to the occupied Palestinian territory and Israel, the top United Nations relief official today highlighted the worsening humanitarian conditions in Gaza and the West Bank resulting from closures and restrictions on movement.
“Medical services in Gaza are deteriorating, private industry has more or less collapsed, and there are real worries about education,” Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs John Holmes said at a press conference in Jerusalem.
“After eight months of very serious restrictions on the movement of goods, the political and security crisis in and around Gaza has increasingly severe humanitarian consequences,” added Mr. Holmes, who is also UN Emergency Relief Coordinator.
God we could go on and on.
December 27th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
a.: Hamas is intent on eradicating the Jews.
Their own leaders state this time and again on Hamas’s television networks.
You are intent on ignoring their intentions. Just as you are intent on decrying Israeli attacks on Hamas assets, while you don’t care one bit that Hamas deliberately puts those assets in civilian areas, whcih happens to be a war crime (perfidy — look it up).
December 27th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Yes, this is about forcing better terms to the cease fire. As in, forcing the fire to cease.
You’re kidding yourself if you think this do anything but ratchet up the rocketire from Gaza.
December 27th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
You are missing my point, or purposely ignoring it:
In the previous cease-fire, the firing of rockets into Israel did not actually cease.
Now, Israel is trying to force a cease fire in which the terms are better suited to Israel. Among them will be the condition by which the cease fire will actually include, you know, a cease fire.
December 27th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
a. wrote:
“You’re a partisan and a fanatic. You construct a completely unrealistic phantasm (a Hamas intent and capable of eradicating the Jews) and then use it as a justification for whatever actions Israel takes.”
Hamas is intent. They can’t say it any plainer than they do – you must be willfully ignorant. No, Hamas is not capable of destroying Israel now. Should the Israelis just wait until Hamas is capable and only then move to defend herself?
==============================
“I stopped “shilling” for Hamas because I realized that I could indeed be interpreted as apologizing, which is wrong, because I view their behavior as destructive, counter-productive and repugnant–the same judgment I make of Isreali. A similar realization would do you credit.”
You stopped shilling for Hamas? When was that – I must have missed it. For you to even admit that belies your parlor-game argument seriousness. Arguing with you is like watching matter get sucked into a black hole. So of course, in your quantum reality, Hamas equals Israel equals Hamas equals…..you are hopelessly addled.
===============================
“There’s utility to killing civilians..It’s a political technique. Hamas recognizes it; so do the Israelis. And yet neither are genocidal, just awful.”
Hamas ‘recognizes’ it? They plan for it, they practice it; it is the mechanism by which they implement their fundamental policy objective. Hamas is genocidal. You can lump Israel and Hamas together all you want, but no facile sophistry (and I’m not suggesting you are so capable) could ever make it so.
=============================
“And with that I exit, to go do something fun.”
Off to your next parlor game………..
December 27th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Dear Mr. Yglesias, cut the shit. US administrations have for decades understood the need, in blatant self-interest, to broker peace between the two sides. And they have tried.
There just isn’t any agreement that they’ve found acceptable.
Or do you know something different?
December 27th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Ha’aretz is reporting that the operation was planned for over six months. My view is that Israel has planned all along to present the incoming US president with military facts on the ground designed to force his hand and limit his political options, particularly with regard to any grand bargains with Iran or any bright ideas about a settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that would require any significant dismantling of the Israeli colonies in the West Bank. The scope of this operation seems designed to provoke escalation. I expect an escalation in the diplomatic war of words against Iran to follow.
December 27th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Dan Kervick wrote:
“Ha’aretz is reporting that the operation was planned for over six months. My view is that Israel has planned all along to present the incoming US president with military facts on the ground designed to force his hand and limit his political options”
Why is it that whatever Israel does is perceived as being manipulative of others? That’s such a classic canard of the string-pulling Jews. Get over it. Hamas has been shelling and bombarding Israel with missiles for five years. Israel acted because the situation became intolerable, even for the shamefully restrained Olmert government. Do you honestly think that the IDF hasn’t, out of necessity, had to plan for just such a military response? Do you have any idea how complex and difficult a task it is to plan what was carried out? From the accounts I’ve read it took more than a year of intel gathering on Hamas facilities and infrastructure just to draw up a target list; proper planning how to proceed and coordinate the response would take month as well.
December 27th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
This Middle East area is like the great red spot on Jupiter, a storm raging for thousands of years. I wonder if there isn’t something geographical in the cause of the constant conflict, because nowhere else in the world do peope of differing ideologies living as neighbours live with so much violent, ugly hatred toward each other. We all live fairly comfortably with neighbours who think and vote and believe in different things, and that is the way toward enlightenment. If these Mid-east neighbours refuse to join the world then neither of them deserve a government, or authority of their own. There is only one way to dissolve the conflict. The borders, the walls, the wire, must be taken away. People of both countries must be dispersed throughout each country, forced to live in the same streets and houses, the children into the same schools and playgrounds, the area councils made up of both peoples. People of the Gaza strip and people of Israel must share the same swimming pool, share the same libraries, restaraunts, shops, hairdresses, and the men from Gaza and Israel have sit and sip tea and smoke from the same pipe together. They will have to be led, like children, to see how much richer and more beautiful their land can become by coming together, to finally, one day, see that they can love their neighbour as themselves.
December 27th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
In the previous cease-fire, the firing of rockets into Israel did not actually cease.
Actually, the 5 months after the ceasefire was enacted in June was the greatest period of calm between the two sides in the past eight years.
You are missing my point, or purposely ignoring it:
No, I get your point: I just think it’s wrong. There are other strategic factors influencing Israel’s behavior, like the Gilad Shalit negotations, restoring its strategic deterrence, looking “tough on Hamas” for the upcoming elections, etc. On the flip side, Hamas wants the siege on Gaza ended, which is undermining Hamas’ standing with Palestinians. Hence, each side wants to renegotiate the ceasefire on better tems than the previous one. At the same time, neither side wants to blink first.
December 27th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
And in what 5 month period did you beat your wife the least, Peter H?
There was a cease fire, in which the fire did not cease.
Now there is a war. If Hamas wants a cease fire, it will have to agree to one in which the fire actually ceases.
Breaks your heart, doesn’t it?
December 27th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Peter H wrote:
“Actually, the 5 months after the ceasefire was enacted in June was the greatest period of calm between the two sides in the past eight years.”
And the last two weeks saw a surge in Palestinian Arab missile barrages. With the Hamas declaration that the cease-fire they never honored was over, the reality of 200,000 Israeli civilians living in a free-fire war zone superseded any other consideration. Imagine if your town suffered like Sderot has. I bet you my house you would want your country’s armed forces to protect the lives of your family and friends. For once you should try putting your machination-theory aside and deal with the reality of the situation. Five years is a long time to put up with the Hamas bullshit. The Israeli public had had enough. This was the time for the nation to act in it’s own defense, and that’s what it did. Occam’s Razor applies perfectly.
December 27th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
All historical claims are slippery since most land has been conquered and reconquered over the years.
Some are more slippery than others. The squat-and-expropriate tactics of certain extremist groups in Israel, bankrolled by Americans for the most part, have changed the facts on the ground even where long-established claims exist.
Anyway, Dan Kervick’s likely right to some extent: this is Kadima saying to Obama “this is what you’re getting, so deal with it, because you know that Bibi would be worse, and he’d be backed by the batshit settler parties”.
December 27th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
It’s also Kadima saying “say hi to Satan” to a gross of Hamas terrorists.
December 27th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Why is it that whatever Israel does is perceived as being manipulative of others? That’s such a classic canard of the string-pulling Jews.
Oh, stop your boo-hooing namer. I will happily stipulate that both sides are eagerly pulling strings wherever they have strings available, and are happy to manipulate anyone who, in their view, needs manipulating.
It’s a fucking war. It’s been going on for a century. So what else is new. I’m just in no mood to indulge the fiction that what are planned and organized moves in this very long game by the tacticians and strategists playing on each side are just some sort of spontaneous eruption of unplanned mayhem.
You should be happy. Israel is winning the war. It’s a long, patient, slow-motion win that has progressed acre by acre since the first waves of Zionist immigrants set foot in Palestine. And the Palestinians have been losing acre by acre. It will all be over in just another 20 or 30 years.
December 27th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
There are other strategic factors influencing Israel’s behavior, like the Gilad Shalit negotations, restoring its strategic deterrence, looking “tough on Hamas” for the upcoming elections, etc. On the flip side, Hamas wants the siege on Gaza ended, which is undermining Hamas’ standing with Palestinians.
Yes, and I think one factor that shouldn’t be underrated is the desire by the entire Israeli defense establishment to restore face after the embarrassment of the 2006 war with Hizbollah.
December 27th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Dan Kervick wrote:
“I will happily stipulate that both sides are eagerly pulling strings wherever they have strings available, and are happy to manipulate anyone who, in their view, needs manipulating.”
Stipulate to your heart’s content. You cannot, however, whitewash the reality that enough is enough, and that the surge in Palestinian Arab missile volleys, with no end in sight, dictated the timing of this tipping point.
======================
“You should be happy. Israel is winning the war.”
You know what? Fuck you and your assumption that any of this makes me happy. It’s a huge tragedy. I have family in the line of Arab fire, and I am heartsick. I know good men will probably die defending their country from those who would kill them and their families. I hate seeing the pictures and video of the suffering in Gaza. Did I say fuck you? Fuck you.
=======================
“And the Palestinians have been losing acre by acre. It will all be over in just another 20 or 30 years.”
They’re only losing a war because they persist in making a war. And that’s the real tragedy.
December 27th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Hamas is a terrorist org representing terrorist sympathizers. Palestinians were dancing in the streets after 9/11. That their Qassam rockets didn’t kill anyone means nothing, other than they were inept.
Palestinian suicide bombers directly targeted civilians. The IDF tries to kill military who unfortunately hide within civilians. Hamas tried to goad the IDF into responding in the hopes that civilians would be killed. The IDF responded and were in the propaganda cycle now.
The propaganda works best in the Middle East because 50% of the population is illiterate. It also works because anyone who doesn’t toe the line will literally meet a gruesome death.
Since it was Palestinians who were killed I suppose us Americans should be dancing in the streets. But no, we’ll just keep sending this disfunction more money and the Israelis will keep supplying them with aid and electricity.
And then one day a nuke will go off.
December 27th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Stipulate to your heart’s content. You cannot, however, whitewash the reality that enough is enough, and that the surge in Palestinian Arab missile volleys, with no end in sight, dictated the timing of this tipping point.
Oh posh. None of those scary Palestinian rockets seems to have landed anywhere where it would actually kill people. Israel wants to put Hamas out of business. It didn’t need any Qassam explosions to keep working on that project.
Sorry about your family. But there is a good chance they are living on land that was expropriated from ethnically cleansed Palestinians. Sucks to be a colonist.
December 27th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Kervick, fuck you. Fuck you hard. Innocent men, women and children in Sderot have been killed by these rockets.
Clearly not enough of them have died as far as you are concerned, but they have been killed, one of them in the last 24 hours.
And by the way,the main targetted town, Sderot, started out as a refugee camp for Jews “cleansed” from Arab countries.
December 27th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
Dan Kervick wrote:
“None of those scary Palestinian rockets seems to have landed anywhere where it would actually kill people.”
You’re not only cynical, you are ignorant. Willfully so, in my opinion, which speaks volumes about your agenda and bias. This is from today’s Jerusalem Post:
Palestinians fired over 80 rockets and mortar shells at areas throughout the western Negev. In Netivot, 58-year-old Beber Vaknin was killed and five people were wounded – one seriously – when their house was hit by a rocket.
All the wounded were evacuated to Beersheba’s Soroka Hospital.
“After the first rocket landed, people wanted to see what had happened,” one of Vaknin’s neighbors told The Jerusalem Post on Saturday night. “He went outside to look around when the rocket hit, and he was killed by the shrapnel. The medics said the shrapnel pierced his heart.”
And that’s just today. Did I say fuck you? Fuck you.
=================================
Sorry about your family. But there is a good chance they are living on land that was expropriated from ethnically cleansed Palestinians. Sucks to be a colonist.
Sorry? Shyeahh. Spare me. So your conclusion is that 3rd and 4th generation Israelis (natives, every one) deserve death from the skies. How very progressive and humanistic of you. It’s turds like you who shamelessly perpetuate this conflict by promoting debunked canards.
And get over the colonial jag. You can’t colonize your own homeland.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:00 am
Palestinians fired over 80 rockets and mortar shells at areas throughout the western Negev. In Netivot, 58-year-old Beber Vaknin was killed and five people were wounded – one seriously – when their house was hit by a rocket.
Hey, would you happen to know the names of the 200+ Palestinians murdered by Tsahal in the last couple of days? Or don’t they matter at all?
December 28th, 2008 at 12:14 am
I don’t think your relatives deserve death, Omri. But if they are so worried about living in the line of fire, maybe they should think twice about living on stolen land that is thus in the line of fire from the people who had it taken from them and want to get it back.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:19 am
I would not know their names, because they do not exist. Randomly throwing rockets at a town is murder. Attacking the organisation doing that, however, is lawful warfare.
If not for the kassam rockets, every one of those 200 Gazans would be alive now.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:21 am
Hamas campaigned and won a majority in the Palestinian Parliament on a platform of war with Israel. The Palestinians were given a choice- war or peace – and they chose war. Of course they cannot win militarily in the short term. But in the long term war is to their benefit. Hamas wanted Israel to invade Gaza. It has been firing rockets for the explicit purpose of provoking this invasion. The Israelis have been saying as clearly as possible that if the rockets did not stop, they would invade, and the rockets did not stop. Do you think that’s because Hamas is stupid? Of course not. As in Lebanon, the Israelis are acting like puppets on a string. Hamas says, hey Israelis, come kill us! and the Israelis come and kill them. To whose benefit, in the long run? To Hamas’s benefit. The worst thing that could happen to Hamas would be a peaceful reconciliation and a Palestinian state. Hamas needs war and Israel is giving it to them.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:23 am
You don’t think they deserve death, merely that they have it coming to them. Fuck you, kervick. My relatives are living in their homeland.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:02 am
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December 28th, 2008 at 3:08 am
“Imagine Mexico bombarding San Diego and environs for five years with thousands of missiles intended to do one thing and one thing only: kill Israeli civilians.”
I would suggest that they are aiming a little too far west…
December 28th, 2008 at 5:19 am
From an article in Haaretz from November.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1037901.html
Of course, the Palestinians are monsters, firing their little rockets while Israel (the occupier, btw.)starves them, denies them medical supplies, cuts off their gas and water…What could Israel do but respond with one hundred F-16s? Hamas and all those Palestinians are so powerful.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:39 am
The only options that come to my mind are either:
a) Hamas are the stupidest motherfuckers on the face of the planet and genuinely didn’t see this coming,
b) they want dead civilians for propaganda purposes.
Neither makes me think much of their cause (which has never been peace or a two-state solution AFAICT)
December 28th, 2008 at 5:47 am
What a disgusting act by the israeli government. It’s not enough that they try to starve Gaza into complying with their demands, now they go ahead and simply start bombing the place.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:53 am
What struck me as particularly cruel about this attack was the targeting of police cadets at a graduation ceremony in broad daylight.
Isn’t this exactly what Zarqawi used to do in Iraq?
December 28th, 2008 at 5:56 am
Hamas is a terrorist org representing terrorist sympathizers. Palestinians were dancing in the streets after 9/11.
Oh not this shit again…..
December 28th, 2008 at 6:02 am
With regard to the issue of proportionality, I wonder of those calling for it think that the US/British bombing of German civilians during the 2nd World War was a proportional response to the German bombing attacks on Great Britain in the early part of the war. German civilian casualties exceeded British casualties by a factor of 10.
How about the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Were those proportional to the attack on Pearl Harbor? The death toll in those two cities exceeded the death toll at Pearl Harbor by a factor of 50.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:55 am
To all those that insist Hamas was doing nothing…just because they are incompetent doesn’t mean they aren’t trying. Why don’t you go live in a neighborhood where someone fires 60 missiles at you and see if you feel like responding.
December 28th, 2008 at 8:07 am
The problem with this logic is that Palestinians were firing Qassam rockets into Israel from Gaza even while Gaza was under Israeli occupation. Qassam rockets are rudimentary and can be manufactured and fired from virtually anywhere. There is no military solution to the Qassam rockets, and the Israelis have long realized this.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3513001,00.html
The Israeli government and the IDF must know that this latest offensive will accomplish nothing more than inflicting tremendous suffering on the civilian population of Gaza. All this talk of Israel “defending itself” is pure bullshit. The Israelis know that are not going to stop the rockets by killing civilians.
December 28th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Michael Sande wrote:
“The Israeli government and the IDF must know that this latest offensive will accomplish nothing more than inflicting tremendous suffering on the civilian population of Gaza.”
You are wrong. Even Hamas, famous for the staged ambulance runs to hospitals, admits that 90% of those killed were Hamas terrorists. That percentage is probably even higher than that.
============================
” All this talk of Israel “defending itself” is pure bullshit.”
Astounding you would even something so asinine and put your name on it. Unlike the Hamas death cult and the people who put them in power, the Israelis love life and actually do defend themselves.
December 28th, 2008 at 9:20 am
King Jehu wrote:
“Hamas is a terrorist org representing terrorist sympathizers. Palestinians were dancing in the streets after 9/11.
Oh not this shit again…..”
Of course you will see that again, because it’s true. Always will be – it’s a part of history now. The vast majority of Americans who saw that knew how to process it correctly – apparently you do not, which also explains your inability to concede that Hamas is, in fact, a terror organization intent on slaughtering Jewish civilians.
December 28th, 2008 at 9:25 am
James wrote:
“Imagine Mexico bombarding San Diego and environs for five years with thousands of missiles intended to do one thing and one thing only: kill Israeli civilians.”
I would suggest that they are aiming a little too far west…
Typo notwithstanding, the point is valid. The US would never have put up with 5,000+ missiles over five years raining indiscriminately over population centers of Southern California. Nor would any other country. Israel showed too much restraint for too long. The double-standard applied to Israel’s legitimate self-defense needs are appalling.
December 28th, 2008 at 9:35 am
tg wrote:
What a disgusting act by the israeli government. It’s not enough that they try to starve Gaza into complying with their demands, now they go ahead and simply start bombing the place.”
Your indignation at Israel’s demands is ludicrous. What is unreasonable about demanding an end to 5,000 missiles aimed at 200,000 Israeli civilians living in the western Negev desert? If you looked at the chronology of events you would see, time and time again that the border crossing closures were in response to Hamas attacks against Israeli civilians. Apparently you would have the Jews just lay down and accept their fate lest they upset your twisted sense of fairness. But why learn the facts when you can moralize and cast blame borne of bias and bigotry?
December 28th, 2008 at 9:41 am
We are witnessing another David Vs Goliath. Goliath and the rest of the criminal gangsters demand total surrender by David and his weak followers because they believe David et. al. are of an inferior race and must chose to disappear.
Well, an old story teaches us that the arrogant Goliath et. al. will lose. Indeed, the Goliaths will have to understand that they are not that special, and that they do it in the toilet like every other human being; they even forget to wash, but that’s again human!
December 28th, 2008 at 9:49 am
steve wrote:
“To all those that insist Hamas was doing nothing…just because they are incompetent doesn’t mean they aren’t trying. Why don’t you go live in a neighborhood where someone fires 60 missiles at you and see if you feel like responding.”
You would think this line of reasoning would make sense to the Israel-bashers out there, but it never will. It’s because of the IDSS – Israel Double Standard Syndrome – wherein Israeli civilians are less deserving (if at all) of having their lives defended. You can argue and use facts and reason, until you finally get the IDSS-afflicted individual to reveal the basis for all the excuses they have for denying Israel the same rights as any other nation – that Jews have no right to self-determination in their sovereign homeland. If they did, a nation defending its citizens from external attack would be axiomatic.
One more thing – informed and fair people know that Hamas is directly (and proudly) responsible for thousands of Israeli homicides – busses, cafes, markets blowing up. Israelis thank the presence of the security fence for reducing those Palestinian Arab atrocities significantly. Again, the IDSS will kick in and you will hear that the Israelis have it coming to them. Sick, isn’t it?
December 28th, 2008 at 9:54 am
Random_moods wrote:
“We are witnessing another David Vs Goliath. Goliath and the rest of the criminal gangsters demand total surrender by David and his weak followers because they believe David et. al. are of an inferior race and must chose to disappear.”
Now you’re just being stupid. Israel demands a halt to missiles being raine on population centers. Frickin’ unreasonable of them, isn’t it?
Get over the race bullshit – Israel is more racially diverse than any nation in the Middle East. Sderot – the Negev town that has suffered the most from Palestinian Arab missile attacks – has a large percentage of Ethiopian Jews (read: black people). So who is attacking the people of color in this Palestinian Arab war against civilians?
December 28th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Well, you are again insisting on the short term memory syndrome (STMS) arguments which consist in portraying the palestinians as the original agressors… yes they are firing rockets as a sign of resistance to the arrogant and continued assisinations (especially during the cease fire period) and the continued inhuman blockade (also during the cease fire period), … etc. etc. Sorry but your argument here does not hold.
Well, here again this is poor argumentation insinuating that the Arabs are the fashist and racists. Just for your information, more than 75% of Gaza (strip)’s population are refugees from what is now Israel. It is one of the most populated regions in the world with close-to-zero resources that is repeatedly besieged and which everyone here tends to forget. Poor Israelis, they are hurt in their arrogant pride and those stupid resistants in Gaza refuse to disappear quietly…
December 28th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Re Random_moods
Just for your information, more than 75% of Gaza (strip)’s population are refugees from what is now Israel.
Just for the information of fucktard Random_moods, about 1/2 the population of Israel are refugees from Arab countries like Iraq.
December 28th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Just for the information of SLC, no one forced those to move to Goliath land. Most were lured or forced by fellow Goliath maniacs to move there. They lived with dignity in Iraq (and every other Arab country) for centuries!
December 28th, 2008 at 10:44 am
They lived with dignity in Iraq (and every other Arab country) for centuries!
Until the pogroms began in Baghdad to drive them out.
December 28th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Yes, random_moods, Gaza is full of refugees from Israel, and Sderot is made in large part of Jewish refugees from Morocco. There is no reason why the Gazans should have any more bitching rights than the Sudetenland Germans.
December 28th, 2008 at 10:48 am
What utter bullshit, random_moods. Jews in Arab lands lived in dignity? You go try living with that “dignity.” Go to Egypt and try to live as a Copt and come back to tell us how that feels.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:00 am
December 28th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Random_moods wrote:
“..yes they are firing rockets as a sign of resistance to the arrogant and continued assisinations (especially during the cease fire period) and the continued inhuman blockade (also during the cease fire period)..”
Hamas violated the so-called cease fire almost immediately and kept on firing missiles the whole time. You didn’t read the news, apparently. Inhuman blockade? If Hamas wasn’t firing missiles there would be no blockade. DUH
But, hey, you actually admit Hamas is firing missiles. For you that’s huge. What are they “resisiting”? Kindergarten kids in Sderot? That’s not resistance, it’s a war crime. That you believe it to be legitimate speaks volumes about you.
===============================
Well, here again this is poor argumentation insinuating that the Arabs are the fashist and racists.
LOL!!!!!
I was answering your specious race card smear by pointing out the fact that it is black and brown-skinned Israeli Jews who are among the victims of Palestinian Arab attacks. And I didn’t call Hamas fascist, although their brutal indoctrination and repression of their own people certainly fits the mold. When you start resorting to cheap tags like “racist’ and fascist” it says to me you are running out of arguments and just flinging garbage. Pathetic, really.
===============================
“It is one of the most populated regions in the world with close-to-zero resources that is repeatedly besieged and which everyone here tends to forget.”
Those poor Gazan Arabs are sitting on prime Mediterranean beachfront property, and have been the beneficiaries of tens of billions of dollars of handouts from Europe and the US for decades. They could have turned it into a productive and thriving resort to rival any in the region, but have squandered it all in choosing jihad instead. Pathetic. When Israel ethnically-cleansed itself of every Jew in Gaza five years ago, they left behind high-tech greenhouses which were promptly trashed and looted, and never rebuilt. Don’t remember that either, do you…..
At some point you have to stop making excuses for other people’s bad choices.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:23 am
“insinuating that the Arabs are the fashist and racists”
Let’s hear it from the horse’s mouth.
“I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza,” said Sheik Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, an Islamic outreach movement that recently announced the opening of a “military wing” to enforce Muslim law in Gaza.”
Care to defend that?
December 28th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Brittain33 wrote:
“They lived with dignity in Iraq (and every other Arab country) for centuries!”
Until the pogroms began in Baghdad to drive them out.
==============================
Close friends of my family are a Jewish husband and wife from Baghdad who were dispossessed in 1948 by the Iraqi government and were lucky to have escaped with their lives. They left everything behind. He somehow managed to reach safety in Israel, mostly by train and bus. She literally escaped on foot on, moving at night and hiding during the day. It’s an extraordinary story. They both grew up in the same Baghdad Jewish ghetto but never met until they were both in the same immigrant absorption center in Israel. He went on to become an electrical engineer, taught at the Technion, and is one of the founders of what is now Elbit, a leading electro-optical engineering and technology company based in Haifa.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:26 am
~oops – inadvertant italics on my comment above~
December 28th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
This is from today’s NYT:
Palestinian officials said that most of the dead in Gaza were security officers for Hamas, including two senior commanders, and that at least 600 people had been wounded in the attacks.
No terrorists (that’s your word). Six hundred people wounded, none identified. How many missing limbs does that add up to? And all for an objective that the IDF well knows is not achievable by military means. You know what Israel is famous for nowadays? Bringing down brutal military force on civilians. Blocking food and energy from reaching civilians. Cluster bombs on civilians.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
“Hamas violated the so-called cease fire almost immediately and kept on firing missiles the whole time.”
Gideon Levy in Haaretz:
“Israel did not exhaust the diplomatic processes before embarking yesterday on another dreadful campaign of killing and ruin. The Qassams that rained down on the communities near Gaza turned intolerable, even though they did not sow death. But the response to them needs to be fundamentally different: diplomatic efforts to restore the cease-fire – the same one that was initially breached, one should remember, by Israel when it unnecessarily bombed a tunnel – and then, if those efforts fail, a measured, gradual military response.”
“There is no reason why the Gazans should have any more bitching rights than the Sudetenland Germans.”
It’s hard to fathom why the claims of Palestinians, who have been dispossessed of 90 percent of their land in the span of the last sixty years, are invalid and yet those of the Israelis, which disconnect from the present by a millenium, are ironclad. “My relatives are living in their homeland.” And so are the Palestinians.
“Unlike the Hamas death cult and the people who put them in power, the Israelis love life and actually do defend themselves.”
That’s a strange thing to say. It seems you can condemn the rocket attacks and yet say without contradiction that the Palestinians are defending themselves, at least if you’re attributing that term in equal measure to the Israelis (more accurately you might say that in its cyclical fashion, the violence had long ago lost any intelligible delineation between aggression and defense). Since 2005 1400 Gazans have been killed by Israeli forces, as opposed to dozens in Sderot.
December 28th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
It must break your heart to see so few Isrealis dying.
Nevertheless, it is our right to do whatever it takes to force that number to ZERO.
They are trying to kill our kids. We are tying to kill our kids’ killers. That is the difference between us and them.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
They are trying to kill our kids. We are tying to kill our kids’ killers. That is the difference between us and them.
No. The difference is that you come up with bullshit rationalisatons. “You” are trying to kill whoever might in the rough vicinity of people who are trying — and generally not succeeding — to kill people, and using the best products of the American defense procurement process to do so. Funny how those speaking up for the Jewish state — good old CAMERA and its blogswarmers — don’t quite grasp that “eye for eye” was about proportionality.
December 28th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Nevertheless, it is our right to do whatever it takes to force that number to ZERO.
Really, omri? “whatever it takes?” Where I come from, the Israeli response is what we refer to as an “overreaction.”
December 28th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Yes, whatever it takes. We have the right not to have rockets shot at our kids.
Just because not enough of our kids are being murdered to satisfy you does not mean we don’t have the right to fight against the people trying to kill them.
And pseudonymous in nc: if you want to be willfully blind to the difference between legitimate warefare and terrorism, I can’t stop you. But don’t pretend this has not been pointed to you. There is a difference between going after children and going after the killers of children, a difference enshrined in international law, that thing the likes of you often cite but never read.
December 28th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
So you would support the establishment of Konzentrationslager? I just want to be clear here about how far you are willing to go.
December 28th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Well, you support the continued attempts to murder Israeli children through the rocket attacks, so you have no standing to be casting this kind of aspersion.
I support whatever it takes to stop the rockets. If that means an air campaign against Hamas in which 150 Hamasnicks die (breaks your heart, doesnt’ it?), so be it.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
So you don’t support the establishment of Konzentrationslager, then? Just air attacks?
To be totally honest, I don’t really care much about either side. But I find the “whatever it takes” mindset fascinating.
I do find the term “Hamasnicks” mildly amusing, however. Is this common slang where you’re from?
December 28th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Tell you what, idiot: How about I randomly send home made rockets at your home town, and then tell me you don’t understand my mindset?
December 28th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Okay. Cincinnati, Ohio.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
There is a difference between going after children and going after the killers of children, a difference enshrined in international law
And there is a difference between going after the killers of children and saying that’s what you’re doing when you just want to feel better by blowing shit up. In the meantime, I’m sure you’d have no problem with having your home blown up because your dog might one day crap on my lawn.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Although to savor the full irony of that “idiot” comment, I wish my hometown was New York City.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
You might be the kind of guy who “feels better” when he blows shit up, but that is not the attitude on our side.
The shit we’ve blown up so far has been the shit that several hundred Hamas members were sitting on, and that is the reason we went over and blew it up. Hamas tries to kill our kids, so we go and kill Hamas. That;s how that works.
As for your little analogy here, if you can’t tell between dog refuse and murder, well, that shows what your perspective is.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
No matter how many times you repeat yourself, Omri, you’re still engaging in bullshit rationalization. You’re not “killing Hamas”. You’re killing Gazans and telling yourself they’re Hamas because that makes you feel better.
And we’re all very clear on what your perspective is. If Israel thinks that the military equivalent of a hissy fit is good policy, then it deserves to be treated like a five-year-old.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
You blithering baboon, EVEN HAMAS admits that the majority of the dead so far have been Hamas operatives.
You are being willfully blind. This is how you defeat a terrorist organization: you go to where they are and you kill them.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
This is how you defeat a terrorist organization: you go to where they are and you kill them.
How’s that working out for you, Omri? Hezbollah’s still in business after last year’s high-explosive temper tantrum, so do keep working on the whole smiting thing.
Oh, and for the record: I’m sure you can name the last Israeli child murdered by a Hamas rocket, since there’ll have been many, many words written about it. Hazard a guess at the number of Palestinian kids killed since then?
December 28th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Hezbollah enjoyed the protection of the United Nations.
We’ll see about Hamas.
And now we see, pseudonymoous, that you really are saddened by the paucity of Israeli children killed by Hamas.
Hamas is also very sad about this. That is why they tended to schedule their rocket firings to 7:50 AM every day, when kids are walking to school.
It is true that they had not had much success. But we have every right to kill every last one of them in order to bring their success rate down to where it ought to be.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
“This is how you defeat a terrorist organization: you go to where they are and you kill them.”
I wonder, do you think this policy has worked out well so far for Israel? Do you expect that such attacks will actually deter Hamas and other Palestinian groups from future attacks? Do you expect that such attacks will cause Hamas et al to call it a day, and disband? If not, then what endgame do you have in mind? Or do you simply envision eternal conflict?
December 28th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
They will deter Hamas for the simple reason that dead men send no rockets.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Now we see, Omri, that you’re not willing to engage with the casualty count. Once you’ve convinced yourself of collective guilt, collective punishment comes easy. Smite, smite, smite: the only good wog is a dead wog.
Oh, that prickles you, Omri. You just wish you could call down an airstrike, don’tcha?
December 28th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
So you believe that Israel has the ability to kill every single last member of Hamas, and will achieve that goal at some point in the foreseeable future, and will thereby end the conflict, and the Israelis will then live in peace?
December 28th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
I am fully engaged with the casualty count. I notice that even Hamas admits most of the casualties are members of Hamas.
You are the one refusing to engage with the causalty count because that would mean retreating from your stupidity.
The people being targetted are members of an organization overtly devoted to killing Israeli children. They are the ones devoted to collective punishment (of all Jews, everywhere, for the crime of being Jews.)
They are overt, devoted murderers. Smiting them is a perfectly sensible thing to do.
Over 200 smitten so far. Not bad for a day’s work.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Joseohdietrich: why do you even care?
You’ve already shown that you don’t think a campaign to murder Israeli children is a big deal at all, so why should you be so concerned about whether a campaign against the murderers would work?
No skin off your back.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Best quote so far from Ehud Barak “There is a time for calm and a time for fighting. Now is the time for fighting.
You don’t wipe out terrorists with proportion. You do it with F-16s
December 28th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Omri personifies the clear long-sightedness on display from the Israeli government. And keeps with the collective punishment mantra, while apparently drafting in reinforcements, too.
Naftali: I’ll say it again: those F-16s really aren’t doing the job for you, are they? Perhaps you can nuke Gaza and set your air conditioners to blow the fallout into the Med.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
The only people trying collective punishment are Hamasniks.
And the only person here who seems to get off on blowing shit up is you, pseudo. You’re engaged in projection.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Keep telling yourself that, Omri. Makes it much easier to justify next year’s high-explosive hissy-fit against Those People Over There.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
That “hissy fit” has already killed at least 180 members of Hamas. By Hamas’s own admission.
That makes it a bit more than a hissy fit.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Omri, I am simply curious about how you think this will all play out.
As an taxpayer whose dollars pay for some of that fine equipment the Israeli military uses, I guess I lied slightly. I do care a bit about the situation. Namely, I care about how those dollars are being used, and if they are being used in a wise manner. So far, all I have heard from you is a lot of “Boo hoo hoo! Think of the children! We must kill them all!” and little in the way of a coherent policy of how exactly you think that the Israeli response is going to improve the situation in a strategic sense, or how any of this is going to end well. You didn’t even answer my simple (albeit Godwin troll-bait) Konzentrationslager question with an emphatic “no”, instead dodging the issue, which is what I believe is referred to as a “tell” in poker.
As far as I have manage to divine, your thinking extends about as far as “when they attack us, kill as many of them as possible.” Now, while in the short term this might or might not be a valid tactic from the point of view of self-defense, is not going to solve the ongoing cluster-f*ck Israel has on its hands there. It is a strategy on par with gangland-style revenge killings and is going to be about as effective in the long run.
So with that in mind, I have to ask myself “Why, again, does the US support Israel?” After all, we get nothing but grief about the whole thing, and certainly are seeing little benefit from it.
But I try to have an open mind, so I ask you what you think.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Oh, Omri, you can’t swing that limp dick of yours and say it’s impressive.
In the meantime, you still care more about not-actually-killed Israeli kids over actually-killed Palestinian ones. But they don’t count in your crooked moral calculus, do they? After all, it wasn’t as if Israel was aiming at them with their precision-guided weaponry. Or perhaps they were, because they’re just Hamas-in-waiting.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
There you go again, pseudo, whining and moaning that not enough Israeli kids have been murdered.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Well, the answer is this: if you can’t even bring yourself to admit that attempted murder of Israeli children is a crime, and you have repeatedly shown that you think it is a trifle, what standing do you have to judge what I think Israel should do?
Maybe US aid to Israel is not a worthwhile project. But without that aid, there would be no way for the US to yank the leash on Israel and prevent operations like this from being completed, a leash the US has yanked repeatedly over the years.
What I also think, is that since attempted murder does not bother you at all, that you are a worthless sack of shit.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Yeah, that’s what I thought you’d say. Oh well.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
So you understand that your callous dismissal of the months long Hamas campaign to murder Israeli schoolchildren is something that might cause people to think ill of you.
So you’re just depraved, not dumb.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
The most surprising thing in the middle of this whole chaotic situation is that Israel with it’s high-tech supplied army & intelligence couldn’t locate the so-called threatening missiles and just capture it ..
The world must understand and comprehend that The Israeli government was left with no choice but to slaughter hundreds of innocent Gazans
Palestinians must pay the price for their choosing such a government
Couldn’t help but wondering what we deserve for electing George W Bush as our president!?
I am faithful that eventually what comes around will go around ..
and for all Gazans: after night always there is dawn.. millions are praying for you
December 28th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
The missile sites are closely hidden and guarded. If you think they are so easily found, go find them. We’ll see how Hamas treats you.
December 28th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
You are one warped fucker, Omri. Since you’re too busy spitting with bloodlust to read, I suggest Xanax, rather than ordering out the F-16s.
December 28th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
And for the record: Fuck Hamas, because they’re just gangsters. Fuck Tzipi and her jet-propelled strap-on. And fuck Omri, the warped bastard for whom hypothetical dead kids must be avenged with actual dead ones.
December 28th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
You’re the warped one, psudo.
You’re the one who comment after comment has been complaining about the shortage of dead Israeli kids.
December 28th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Reading clearly isn’t your strong point, Omri. Pretending that the blood of dead children isn’t on your hands, on the other hand…
December 28th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
I don’t deny that the IDF’s actions have resulted in the deaths of children.
I just note the context: The IDF is engaged in a legitimate operation in pursuit of overtly avowed child-killers who purposely time their rockets to try to kill children. And that is why the majority of their victims are innocents.
Meanwhile, the IDF is in pursuit of child killers, and lo and behold, the majority of the people killed by the IDF are Hamas members.
Two things that are decidedly not alike.
December 28th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
You know what distinguishes “child-killers” from “wannabe child-killers”, Omri?
It’s “killing children”.
You can bullshit all you like about it, but all it does is salve your chickpea of a conscience.
December 28th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
You actually expect Israel to just sit by and let these attacks continue, merely because they aren’t killing enough Israeli children to suit your taste.
You are a sick motherfucker.
December 29th, 2008 at 4:42 am
Omri said: Yes, random_moods, Gaza is full of refugees from Israel, and Sderot is made in large part of Jewish refugees from Morocco. There is no reason why the Gazans should have any more bitching rights than the Sudetenland Germans.
Morocco doesn’t ban Moroccan Jews from returning there. Even if they did, there is a line between expelling people on the one hand, and conquering the place they were expelled to and variously attempting to settle it while threatening the refugees with yet another expulsion. What the Sudetenland Germans went through eventually ended. It’s still ongoing for the Gazans.
December 29th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Matt: “were we to have an administration that recognized the necessity of playing such a role.”
Well, we don’t and we won’t. So, next question.
The reality is that Bibi Netanyahu is going to be the next leader of Israel, Israel will shift massively to the right as it’s already doing – and Obama will suck Bibi’s dick just like the last dozen Presidents as more thousands of Palestinians – and probably Lebanese and Iranians – are murdered by fascist, imperialist, Zionist freaks.
It’s time for the West to take Israel OUT. Demand unilateral disarmament of its nuclear arsenal, and throw a full out blockage and international boycott of all goods and services until it complies.
Follow up by reversing the decisions of 1947 that partitioned Palestine. Dissolve the Israeli government, establish a Palestinian government over the entire territory.
The Israelis don’t like it, they get to find out what the full weight of the US war machine can do to a small country that gets in our way. In short, make them look like Iraq. What’s good for the goose…
December 29th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Omri Said :Sderot is made in large part of Jewish refugees from Morocco. There is no reason why the Gazans should have any more bitching rights than the Sudetenland Germans
Yeah Israel Has forever been the refuge of all kinds of Exploited people from all around the world ,,,
I heard An oppressed man named “Bernard Madoff” might flee there as well
December 29th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Omri Said :Sderot is made in large part of Jewish refugees from Morocco. There is no reason why the Gazans should have any more bitching rights than the Sudetenland Germans
Yeah Israel Has forever been the refuge of all kinds of Exploited people from all around the world ,,,
I heard An oppressed man named “Bernard Madoff” might go there as well
December 29th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Omri Said :Sderot is made in large part of Jewish refugees from Morocco. There is no reason why the Gazans should have any more bitching rights than the Sudetenland Germans
Yeah Israel Has forver been the refuge of all kinds of Exploited people from all around the world ,,,
I heard An oppressed man named “Bernard Madoff” might flee there as well
January 3rd, 2009 at 9:21 pm
The best way is that both parties must sit down & discuss together on how to go about. The “WAR” is not a right solution. It will end up more civilians will dies & the entire infrastructures will be destroyed badly.
February 7th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Israel does not want civilian casualties among Palestinians. Hamas, on the other hand, wants nothing more. That’s why they fire rockets from UN buildings and schools housing civilians. It’s why their commanders build houses with weapon storehouses on the bottom floor and their children’s bedrooms on the top. It’s why Palestinian mothers send their own sons to be suicide bombers, and why Hamas fires from schoolyards full of kids (and booby-traps the schools to maximize the damage when the retaliation comes). It’s why Hamas “freedom fighters” grab random children off the street and then hide behind them when shooting at Israeli soldiers. And it’s why they forcefully prevented civilians from fleeing after the Israelis warned they were about to attack the area. Hamas wants its own civilians dead, so it can gain the support of foolish idealists, like so many people in this thread, that only see the deaths, but don’t bother to understand the context in which they occured. Israel wants only to protect itself. It tries to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible, quite a difficult task since Hamas tries so hard to get them to do just that. In their own words:
[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: “We desire death like you desire life.”
- Hamas representative Fathi Hamad, 2/29/08
February 25th, 2009 at 8:15 am
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______
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