After Hamas
Robert Farley writes about the strategic logic of the Gaza standoff:
The strategic aims seem clear; Hamas wished to provoke an Israeli attack in anticipation that the reaction will help Hamas seize control of the West Bank. Israel wants to damage Hamas’ state infrastructure, and thus apply enough pain to the Palestinians that they move back towards Abbas, and incidentally give Kadima a chance to win the upcoming elections. Although Egypt and Abbas seem to be on board with the Israeli plan, I know which way I’m betting; people rarely respond to bombing by picking the more moderate option. I’m guessing that Hamas comes out of this stronger than before, although of course the Egyptian reaction could change things a bit by affecting Hamas logistical situation. Even then, though, the policy of the Egyptian government can be quite different than the actual behavior of the Egyptian border guards and inspectors who monitor commerce with Gaza.
It’s important to recall that the rise of Hamas is, in part, the result of a very successful Israeli effort to undermine the authority and infrastructure of Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. Israel interpreted the collapse of the Camp David talks as indicating that Yasser Arafat and his movement were not reasonable negotiating partners and that the whole enterprise of trying to deal with them had been a mistake. So they spent years — with the support and at times encouragement of the Bush administration — trying to weaken their hold on the Palestinian people and the Palestinian territories in hopes that this would bring to power some kind of hazily defined quisling entity that would be more accommodating. And they succeeded in the undermining. Why, exactly, the Israeli and American governments thought the likely upshot of success would be a more accommodating alternative rather than Hamas I couldn’t quite say. But that’s what they thought and they were wrong.
Similarly, one has to contemplate the possibility that Israeli efforts at disempowering Hamas won’t so much fail as suffer “catastrophic success” as the area is taken over by a Palestinian branch of al-Qaeda. I’m not sure that would be worse for Israel (probably would) but it would definitely be worse for the United States of America.
71 Responses to “After Hamas”
Register
RSSLogin
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog RollAbout Matt YglesiasContact Me
Donate
December 29th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Israel JUST tried this tactic – in Lebanon two years ago. They were going to kick Hezbollah’s butt militarily, thus emasculating them politically.
So… how’d that work out?
*looks*
Well, there, you see? The most powerful political faction in Lebanon isn’t Hezbollah – it’s something called the “National Resistance.” Ha, in your face, appeasers!
…wait, what?
December 29th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
In 2006 Israel tried to pull a fast one like this but FAILED MISERABLY.
This regime is not sustainable. Their leaders should be tried for crime against humanity.
December 29th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Israel has been trying this tactic pretty consistently since the Oslo efforts failed. And it has worked out so well for them. Since then they’ve had suicide bombings in Israel proper, bus depots blown up in Be’er Sheva, restaurants blown up in Haifa and Tel Aviv, rockets landing routinely in Sderot, and sporadically in Ashkelon and Netivot.
Things didn’t used to like this. In the 1980s and 1990s the violence against Israelis used to be limited to the West Bank, and limited to rocks, not explosions. The more the Israelis up the ante, the more the Palestinians respond, and vice-versa.
I keep hearing that Israel needs to defend itself, but the more violent it becomes in defending itself, the worse the situation becomes, so I don’t accept that justification. Look at where things were in 1985, and where things are now, and show me any indicator that Israelis or Palestinians are better off or safer than they were then. Nobody should want to be headed in the current direction.
December 29th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
But it works the same way too. Every time the Palestinians ramp up violence, the Israelis vote in the more extreme elements as well.
Now one would think… this isn’t really improving anybodies life. So why would they do this?
Simple… The leadership controls the profits of war. Arafat plundered millions from the palestinians, and so to I imagine does the Hamas leadership and even Abbas. Same is true on the Israeli side.
December 29th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Um…no. Israel was well aware that Hamas was the likely outcome of undermining fatah. They were and are ok with hamas being in power because there is much less pressure on them to negotiate when the Palestinians are headed by hamas.
This particular action is partly caused by israeli domestic concerns, but the other, stronger motivation is to make up for the botched Lebanon adventure. Israel wants to reestablish the perception of it’s ability in combating asymmetrical military threats. This assault was in the works for a long time, and very carefully planned out, it’s not solely a spur of the moment response to labor/kadima’s poor election prospects, nor do they think or even want to eliminate hamas. The goals they have stated have been very modest(decrease rocket fire) in comparison to what they were ranting about during Lebanon (crush Hezbollah) for a reason. I don’t know why you think you are smarter then the Israeli security establishment.
Fatah and Egypt pretty much detest hamas From their perspective there is little too lose if it and israel go at it.
Honestly, you are a sucky analyst, you’ve actually been getting worse over the years, I eagerly await your complete transformation into a full fledged hack/very serious person
December 29th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Hamas must use longer range missile to hit Tel Aviv. Enough with let’s a make point by hitting the desert.
Israelis only understand one thing and that’s force. If Israelis are going to kill Palestinians no matter what, Hamas is morally obligated to fuck up Israel.
Everything should be a fair game from now.
December 29th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Isn’t this always true of war? Look back at WWII, especially the Pacific campaign. The Japanese behaved badly, the US soldiers hearing of these atrocities behaved badly… the Japanese hearing of US atrocities fought ever harder, refusing to surrender… further pissing off the US soldiers… and back and forth until ultimately two atomic bombs were dropped and finally the Japanese gave up.
Really the only thing the international community can do is just step back and let these guys duke it out. Eventually one side will surrender.
December 29th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Re Farid
In 2006 Israel tried to pull a fast one like this but FAILED MISERABLY.
This regime is not sustainable. Their leaders should be tried for crime against humanity.
I think that Mr. Farid should be tried for stupidity. Rarely have I heard anyone speak so knowledgeably from such a vast fund of ignorance.
Re Joe from Lowell
The clusterfuck in lebanon was due to the total incompetence of the Israeli high command, in particular, General Halutz and defense minister Perutz. Halutz is a perfect example of why an air force general should never be made the commander of a nations’ defense forces (exhibit #2 Richard Myers). Halutz and Myers make George McClellan look like a competent military commander. Hopefully, Army general Ashkenazi and Defense Minister Barak will prove to be more competent then their predecessors.
December 29th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
“Really the only thing the international community can do is just step back and let these guys duke it out. Eventually one side will surrender.”
Bad logic.
International community should make it clear to Israel that there WILL be a consequence to act like animals. If they want to be accepted as a country one day, they should behave like human beings not like microbes, parasites and dangerous bacteria or not only we will fuck with them but we will fuck them up for good.
December 29th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Re Farid
Hamas must use longer range missile to hit Tel Aviv. Enough with let’s a make point by hitting the desert.
Sounds like a good idea to me. Then Israel can hit back with nuclear weapons.
December 29th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
SLC
Like I said you are an old paranoid jew and should be hospitalized. I foot the bill worry not.
Nuclear weapon? even with your feeble mind that’s laughable.
Nasrallah fucked up Israel with bare hands and Hamas will do the same. Just wait and see you retarded paranoid jew.
December 29th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Threads about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict seem to get more civil and intelligent by the day, no?
December 29th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Nate, because paid thugs such as SLC and the U.N. Observer don’t have anything to do than post. 1 buck and half per comment.
December 29th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Oh, wait, does Farley mean that only Arabs won’t respond to bombing by picking the more moderate option. What kind of anti-Arab racist is this Farley guy anyway?
Since Farley not only doesn’t claim that Hamas was trying to obtain more moderate leaders in Israel but explicitly says the opposite, this is pretty embarrassing.
December 29th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
I’m sure that will solve all of Israel’s problems. They will no longer suffer two deaths per year from rocket attacks, like they have been.
December 29th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
SLC Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Re Farid
Hamas must use longer range missile to hit Tel Aviv. Enough with let’s a make point by hitting the desert.
Sounds like a good idea to me. Then Israel can hit back with nuclear weapons.
Farid Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
SLC
Like I said you are an old paranoid jew and should be hospitalized. I foot the bill worry not.
Nuclear weapon? even with your feeble mind that’s laughable.
Nasrallah fucked up Israel with bare hands and Hamas will do the same. Just wait and see you retarded paranoid jew.
While the comments here are not likely to come up with a solution to this mess, it is nice that we get these kind of comments that help us to understand why the killing goes on and on.
December 29th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Is this behavior essentially the product of an unwillingness to see Palestinian/Arab anger and hatred as anything except mindless and evil anti-semitism? I mean, the anti-semitism is certainly there and plenty dangerous by itself. But the idea they can create a “reasonable” bargaining partner among the Palestinians seems to take for granted that “reasonable” Palestinians wouldn’t have any reason to be angry or hate Israel.
Mike
December 29th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Well short of going back in time and doing things differently, what do the strategists suggest that Israel do with Hamas now?
Hamas says consistently and openly it wants to destroy Israel and establish an Islamic republic in all of “Palestine” (and doesn’t hesitate to oppress Palestinian Christians).
They won’t recognize or negotiate with Israel or accept any kind of ‘two state’ solution.
Oh, and they keep hurling missles that didn’t kill anyone out of blind luck, not for any scruples about killing school children.
Matt’s full of what Israel shouldn’t do. What _should_ they do at this point, anyone?
December 29th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
“But the idea they can create a “reasonable” bargaining partner among the Palestinians seems to take for granted that “reasonable” Palestinians wouldn’t have any reason to be angry or hate Israel.”
It’s called political pragmatism, successful state engage in it. I don’t think anyone expects Palestinians to like Israel. On the other hand, it’s not totally unrealistic to expect a pragmatic Palestinian faction that (while totally hating Israel) would still be more interested in peace and the best deal possible (rather than dreams of a military victory).
December 29th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Re Farid
Mr. Farid fucks goats.
December 29th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
“I don’t think anyone expects Palestinians to like Israel. On the other hand, it’s not totally unrealistic to expect a pragmatic Palestinian faction that (while totally hating Israel) would still be more interested in peace and the best deal possible (rather than dreams of a military victory).”
But maybe there is no deal to be gotten at this time on the Palestinian side. It may be the case that NO Palestinian faction willing to deal with Israel would have any popular legitimacy presently. Before any deal can be struck, the Palestinians will have to have leadership with the physical and moral authority to make it stick.
It seems to me, sitting thousands of miles away and not actually having to confont the issues, that Israel needs to focus on promoting and accepting a popularly legitimate Palestinian leadership, whether or not that leadership is willing to make a deal now or in the forseeable future.
Mike
December 29th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Well, thank goodness that Israeli airstrikes magically avoid blowing Palestinian Christians to pieces, then.
And the hardline religious parties in Israel want to destroy the Palestinians and establish a Jewish theocracy in all “Palestine” (and don’t hesitate to oppress Christian evangelists). So I guess the IDF should starve and bomb them until they lighten up, or something.
December 29th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Well, why does Hamas continue the bombing, then?
Um, because Hamas is the LEAST moderate option? And they’re trying to provoke Israeli bombings in order to get Palestinians to support THEM, instead of a more moderate option?
You know, like Matt explains in the post.
December 29th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Does anyone else get a huge Tony/Angela vibe from Farid and SLC?
December 29th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
The Other Steve @ 5 nails it:
All you nice people respectfully arguing here for the merits of either side in this conflict are pawns in the game of those who benefit from it’s continuance. There’s money to be made with prolonged war and the increased militarization of the region. For the war profiteers there is no benefit to solving the problems – that would be silly. Why kill the cash cow when you can kill people? Follow the money. And notice how much of it originated as your tax dollars.
December 29th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Re Farid
Just for the information of Mr. Farid, the Intel chip in his computer was developed by an Intel laboratory in Israel. How can Mr. Farid bear to use such a machine?
December 29th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
“the Intel chip …”
Sure and Israel sent the man to the moon too.
Go back to your meds you old retarded jew.
December 29th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
sab said… Look at where things were in 1985, and where things are now, and show me any indicator that Israelis or Palestinians are better off or safer than they were then. Nobody should want to be headed in the current direction.
The fact that Israel allowed Arafat and the PLO to return to the territories and self-govern, effectively opening up command and control right in the war zone, might have a little something to do with the increase in violence too.
Arafat never had any interest in creating an independent Palestinian state, because his rule (and associated corruption) was best served by chaos. Hamas is in the same boat. If they ever had to actually govern and solve problems, their power would crumble. Chaos is their drug.
December 29th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Arafat never had any interest in creating an independent Palestinian state, because his rule (and associated corruption) was best served by chaos
Surely, this overstates the case. You don’t think Arafat longed for the sovereign power of an Assad or Mubarak?
You don’t think Hamas dreams of running the first true, pure, holy Muslim state and showing the world how it’s done?
Of course they want statehood – they just want it on their terms.
December 29th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
I think Farley might be missing the point about Egypt. The Egytian situation bears more and more similarities to the Shahs Iran. The welfare government in power is paralyzed by the spectre of Hamas linking up with its indigenous Islamist opponents, but by penning Palestinians in for the slaughter, they have certainly increased the likelihood that some move to overthrow the regime will happen. One can never predict these things, but certainly Egypt looks set to become a collateral casualty of Israels insane offensive.
December 29th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
The problem with Israel is that it’s run by a bunch of scumbags.
The problem with Hamas is it’s run by a bunch of idiots.
Instead of launching pointless rockets which achieve a minimal amount of propaganda victory, they should be assassinating the leaders of Israel right and left.
The original definition of terrorism by the People’s Will in Russia at the turn of the last century was to create fear in the state by assassinating the members of the state. This is the correct definition of terrorism – not blowing up civilians, that is the definition of “state terrorism”.
Hamas needs to start killing Israeli leaders and Israeli commanders of the IDF. Forget civilians, forget the IDF grunts, hit the people who matter.
Don’t blow up a bus, steal a nuke and blow up Tel Aviv. Better yet, steal a nuke and just threaten to blow up Tel Aviv. The rest of the world will come down on Israel like a ton of bricks.
Hey, SLC, my machines run AMD. So fuck you.
December 29th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Re Richard Steven Hack
The blogs resident ex-con says he uses a computer with AMD chips. AMD also has a research facility in Israel. Try again fuckface.
Re Farid
Mr. Farid can call all the names he wants. The Intel chip in his computer was designed in Israel and he should get rid of it at his earliest opportunity. As a matter of fact, most of the US high tech companies have research facilities in Israel. By the way Mr. Farid, how many Arabs have won Nobel Prizes in Physics? The answer is 1, an Algerian named Claude Cohen-Tannoudji. One guess what his religious identity was.
December 29th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
I think in order to understand the situation you need to stop evaluating the results of the Israelis’ actions by your standards (by which they are clearly failures) and start asking “cui bono?”. If you try the theory that the people who benefited from the current developments (i.e. hardliners and warmongers) were the ones responsible for them, you don’t have to explain bizarre motives for foot-shooting, or massive strategic blunders by highly trained professionals; just a crass willingness to seek power and wealth at the expense of perpetuating a war. (And we all know *that’s* easy to find in *any* country.)
This is not to say that professionals can’t blunder and shoot themselves in the foot, but if there’s an alternative explanation where they’re just greedy ruthless sons of bitches, you might want to consider that one too (or even first).
December 30th, 2008 at 12:18 am
I’ve been reading the exchanges between Farid and SLC.
Charming, it certainly validates my faith in humanity.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:42 am
“By the way Mr. Farid, how many Arabs have won Nobel Prizes in Physics? ”
Dude, give me a break. We’re talking Israeli bombing the fuck out of Palestinian you are talking about invention.
As I said go back to your med you stupid fucking Jew.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:07 am
Skeptic
Bullies only understand one language: FORCE.
Israelis and their paid supporters such as SLC aka douchenozzle and the U.N. Observer aka kosher cocksucker are the bullies.
I sincerely hope Hamas and Hezbollah team up and turn Tel Aviv into a dust. Let’s see how would dirty slimebal Israelis like it when their 4 year old kosher daughter rolls around in her blood.
It’s certainly time for Hamas to fuck up Israel.
December 30th, 2008 at 3:41 am
Israel will have to learn to allow Hamas to exist as a political organization much as the IRA and ANC put down their weapons and became political. They simply can’t wipe out people they disagree with.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:40 am
“Arafat never had any interest in creating an independent Palestinian state, because his rule (and associated corruption) was best served by chaos.”
I think that’s an overstatement. I think he did want to, but he turned out to be a really, bad, really incompetent peacetime leader (inept at even keeping an appearance of integrity and letting his hangers on strong arm returning Palestinians) so he said hell with it and went back to chaos and unrest (because his people were less likely to challenge him then).
I’m still waiting for constructive suggestions on what Israel can do given the realities of a violent enemy (who, like Farid, would really like to kill lots of Israeli children) who won’t talk.
My preferred option (basically putting the “peace process” on hold indefinitely) doesn’t seem workable with so many outside meddlers wanting them to ‘do something’.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:43 am
“Israel will have to learn to allow Hamas to exist as a political organization”
Hamas wants to exist as a political organization? Since when?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:36 am
I bet going back to 67 borders and honoring it would work like a charm. When I say “honor” I mean having the IDF stop batsh*t fundamentalist settlers from terrorizing Palestinians, stealing land, bulldozing homes and orchards, building their own houses, and then expecting to get paid large sums of money for leaving.
There is a sizable minority in Israel that wants Ersatz Israel to extend from the Nile to the Euphrates and somebody needs to put their foot down on the effort to make it so. Perhaps some parties in this current election campaign needs the votes of batsh*t crazy settlers? Who knows?
December 30th, 2008 at 6:20 am
I think that would only work if Palestinians agree to give up the right of return to areas inside the 67 borders.
Any chance of either happening?
December 30th, 2008 at 6:34 am
Re Farid
I am waiting for the time when the Prime Minister of Israel takes a page from the Hafaz Assad playbook and administers Hama Rules on the Gaza Strip. Then fuckface Farid the cocksucker will really have something to whine about.
December 30th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Israel has painted itself into a corner in the years since Oslo. There can never be a viable two-state solution with 270,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank. Attempting to remove the settlers by force would tear the country apart, and could cause the growing schism between secular and religious Jews to break out into open conflict.
Permanent occupation and aparteid is only possible with large subsidies from the U.S. A single-state solution with political and legal equality for Jews and Arabs would result in Israel ceasing to be a Jewish state. Enticing the populations of the West Bank and Gaza to emigrate is unlikely to work because no one wants them.
In the end, the only hope Israel has for long-term survival as a Jewish state is to destroy most of the Arab population of the West Bank and Gaza. Eventually, Israel will reduce the Arab population to manageable levels through some combination of mass starvation and extermination. This is the only chance Israel has left itself to survive as a Jewish state.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Re Jay
So is Mr. Jay saying that, instead of executing Adolf Eichmann, the Government of Israel should have put him in charge of a program to eliminate the Arab problem in Israel?
December 30th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Uh, Matt…. do some reading. Hamas is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.
SO IS AL QAEDA.
Gaza already is in the hands of Al Qaeda.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:41 am
I am saying that Israel blew its chances to remain a decent, Western-style democracy and still remain a Jewish state. Seperation from the Arabs via a two-state solution is no longer a viable option. Israel has two choices: exterminate the Arabs or live with them.
The latter would mean Israel would no longer be a Jewish state, just as South Africa is no longer a white state. The Palestinians have no Mandela, and the level of fear and hatred between Jews and Arabs is greater than the hatred between Whites and Blacks was.
Israel’s Jewish population will never accept equal citizenship for Arabs because that would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state. The Settlers make seperation into two states impossible. Israel’s attempts at indefinite domination of the Palestinians are failing.
Genocide is the next step. It is the only solution to Israel’s demographic problem that wouldn’t require any unacceptable sacrifices on the part of Israelis.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:54 am
That’s what I like about you, Jay, your sunny optimism.
What about it, SLC, are you up for genocide?
I dunno about it personally. For me, Israel as a jewish state means something more than ‘its full of jews.’ It seems to me that one of the key elements of the psychic notion of Israel was ‘never again.’
Well, what Jay’s talking is not ‘never again’, it’s ‘one more time.’ Except the Nazi’s will have new clothes. Can Israel author a genocide and live with it? Can Israel commit this act and remain a jewish state in any meaningful way.
Because, between you and me, I think what Jay’s talking about is probably a lot bigger than eating a pork chop.
But there it is on the table. How does Israel avoid genocide.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Re Omri
Uh, Matt…. do some reading. Hamas is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.
SO IS AL QAEDA.
Gaza already is in the hands of Al Qaeda.
I am afraid that I am going to have to disagree with Mr. Omri on this statement because, in fact, both the Fatah and Hamas factions have indicated to Israeli news organizations that they not only have no connection with Al Qaeda but, in fact hunt down and jail the members of that organization when they are identified. The reason of course is obvious. The leaders of Fatah and Hamas are well aware, despite the contrary blatherings of Mr. Don Williams, that bin Laden and his ilk don’t give a flying fuck about the Palestinians. Al Qaedas attempts, so far unsuccessful, to infiltrate the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are for the purpose of using them as launching pads for attacks on US friendly Arab states such as Jordan and Egypt and in Europe. To Al Qaeda, Israel is small potatoes, hardly worth expending assets. After all, if the big Satan, the USA falls, Isreal will presumably fall also; the converse is untrue.
December 30th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Israel should continue to bomb Hamas infrastructure and ruin their ability to govern Gaza but they should do so from the air, not the ground. Eventually, they will run out of targets and the whole thing will die down. Gaza residents will pay a heavy price but they have to understand, Israel will not and cannot stomach daily rocket attacks. There are those who will say it’s disproportionate. Those arguments ignore the history of armed conflict. When one side has considerably more power than the other, the weaker side uses whatever means available to them. The only way the stronger side can discourage this is disproportionate retaliation. Roman soldiers used to burn down entire villages because someone tossed a stone at them. We leveled Dresden during WWII to terrorize the average German and we were right to do so. Shooting rockets into civilian populations has a price. That is a lesson the people of Gaza may have to learn the hard way.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Richard Steven Hack says:
“Instead of launching pointless rockets which achieve a minimal amount of propaganda victory, they should be assassinating the leaders of Israel right and left.”
Israel protects their leaders. Hamas would love to assassinate a few top guys but they lack the capability to do it. Israel has destroyed most of the homes of the top Hamas leaders in Gaza. If Hamas could do the same they would. Unfortuntately they can’t. Israel protects them. When Hamas has an air force capable of raining smart bombs down on Tel Aviv from thirty thousand feet, Israeli leaders will have something to fear. Until that time, right or wrong, Hamas has only one chance at stopping the Israeli assaults. That is pressure from the outside world. Israel will have to make a choice. They have to decide between worldwide condemnation or daily rocket attacks. Neither option is very good but in the end, they will continue to destroy Hamas’s ability to govern Gaza and when they run out of targets, they will stop. The people of Gaza are caught in the middle. Most of them would choose to live in peace with Israel but nobody is going to ask them what they want. They will continue to get killed in large numbers and in the end, they can never get what they have been told is their ultimate goal. The removal of Zionists from the holy lands. Israel isn’t going anywhere.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
There is no such thing as security for political leaders if you’re smart enough.
The problem for Hamas is that a bunch of Palestinians penetrating Israel’s security is not easy. They need to hire outsiders who don’t look like Palestinians.
Getting the money to pay these guys should be easy – ask any Arab – especially Iran – to donate. Ask bin Laden – he’ll pay for it.
And, yes, Israel is going to go somewhere, eventually. There’s zero chance in history of these idiots making their little “Fortress Israel” dream of lasting forever come true. Sooner or later their asses are going to get fried – probably by one of their own nukes. There’s no way six million people are going to hold off 200 million forever, nukes or no nukes.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
SLC,
As far as Nobel-prize-winning Arab scientists, try this guy and this guy.
I agree with Jay that the settlements make a two-state solution impossible. I suspect that Jay is being a bit snarky, i.e. he’s not actually foaming at the mouth for some Hama Rules, unlike SLC.
December 30th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Re nbt
Mr. nbt apparently has a reading comprehension problem. I specifically said Nobel Prizes in physics. The two gentleman cited by Mr. nbt received their prizes in Chemistry. In addition, only one Muslim, Abdus Salam, who was from Pakistan, has been awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics. However, I do seem to recall that an Egyptian writer received a Nobel Prize in Literature.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Good points, NY nick.
Nuremberg?
December 31st, 2008 at 3:46 am
SLC:
I’m aware of what you wrote, but I specifically said “Nobel-prize winning Arab scientists“, not physicists. It seemed odd for you to focus only on physicists when the discussion was about high-tech innovations generally. Good night.
December 31st, 2008 at 8:13 am
Re nbt
Although I have not evaluated the Nobel Prizes in chemistry and medicine, I would be willing to bet big money that the number of Jews receiving such prizes far exceeds 2. Off the top of my head, I can name Fritz Haber and the Kornbergs, pere and fis in chemistry and Harold Varmus in medicine.
December 31st, 2008 at 12:06 pm
SLC:
For purposes of your debate with Farid (and I certainly do not identify myself with the more nasty comments of Mr. Farid), it seems to me that the relevant comparison would be Nobel prizes for scientists born in the Arab world vs. Nobel prizes for scientists born / residing in Israel, no? I admit that one of my examples above, Elias Corey, would not count for such a comparison, given that he is American born and bred. Zewail is born and educated (before his PhD) in Egypt, though. The Kornbergs and Varmus are all American. (I suspect there are some Israeli Nobel winners, but I’m too lazy to do the research. The nobelprize.org page lists past winners, but not by country)
Also, I didn’t know who Fritz Haber was, but now that I just read his wikipedia page, I see that he developed various poison gases for the Germans in WWI, which poisons were later used in the Nazi killing camps. Not sure you want to claim this guy as a fellow tribesman, but that’s cool!
January 1st, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Re nbt
1. 2 Israeli chemists received the Nobel Prize in chemistry a year or two ago.
2. Fritz Haber shared the Nobel Prize in chemistry for the development of the Haber/Bosch process for manufacturing synthetic fertilizer. the number of people saved from starvation by this development greatly exceeds the number killed by poison gas in the first world war.
3. If one is going to condemn Dr. Haber for his participation in the development of poison gas, we will also have to condemn the physicists who participated in the development of nuclear weapons.
4. I would point out that Mr. Farid has not limited his bigoted comments to Israelis but has included all Jews as his targets. Since he makes no distinction between the two groups, I think it is fair comment to do the same.
January 25th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Israel has every right to defend themselves against radical islamic terrorists!! For all of the moderate islamic and muslim peoples on this forum, if you are so moderate then why do you support hamas and the PLO in destroying israel. (This means you Farid) Hey Farid, by the way, could you learn how to use proper english and learn to spell? Not using proper spelling and contractions just shows why israel wants you dead (just jokin man, are you mad yet?) Really, what is israel to do when you have “nut-jobs” dressed in black head gear, launching rockets into downtown suburbs and populated area’s? For people like Farid, i would suggest that you sit down at a table like civilized twenty first century civilians and work things out before it’s too late!!! If you continue down this path, don’t forget that israel is a nuclear power and they do have tactical nuclear weapons (i don’t care what wikipedia says, they do!!!)(i worked with nuclear weapons for years) and they won’t hesitate to drop a bomb if they thought they could get away with it. For all the islamic’s and muslim peoples of the world, it’s not the fourteenth century any more, and you don’t have to live like it; Any muslims out there using a computer!! tsk tsk, what would your profits say about using something produced by infadels!! I was in wall-mart last night and i did not see and AL-JAFAR model computer systems. I don’t think i would by one, not sure about guys in long white robes with ak’s and rpg’s making computer chips in the sandy dunes around mecca, to much praying and screaming about the infadel. The world did-not forget about what Islam did when a “joke” was printed about your beloved profit. MODERATE MUSLIMS MY ASS…………..
AN INFADEL IN THE WORLD WHO HAD TO RANT ABOUT ISLAM AND YOUR REALLY FATALISTIC WAY OF LIFE……………….
mr infadel
March 1st, 2009 at 5:47 am
viagra
If you have to do it, you might as well do it right
March 11th, 2009 at 4:43 am
If you have to do it, you might as well do it right
March 12th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
I want to say – thank you for this!
March 14th, 2009 at 5:24 am
Very interesting site. Hope it will always be alive!
xanax
March 17th, 2009 at 2:28 am
If you have to do it, you might as well do it right
tramadol
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:17 am
tramadol
Great site. Good info
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:17 am
tramadol
If you have to do it, you might as well do it right
April 2nd, 2009 at 5:22 am
I want to say – thank you for this!
buy cheap viagra
April 3rd, 2009 at 4:14 am
If you have to do it, you might as well do it right
cheap brand pfizer viagra
April 8th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
The topic is quite hot on the Internet at the moment. What do you pay attention to while choosing what to write about?
April 9th, 2009 at 6:15 am
I rarely comment on blogs but yours I had to stop and say Great Blog!! viagra
April 15th, 2009 at 8:48 am
I can tell that this is not the first time you write about this topic. Why have you chosen it again?