The Iverson Trade
When I first heard that the Pistons had traded for Allen Iverson, I thought Joe Dumars had lost his mind. Give up your best player (and a useful rotation guy) in exchange for a more famous, but worse, player who plays the same position and is of about the same age? Crazy. But of course Dumars isn’t crazy so it became clear that he wasn’t trading for Iverson at all, he’s trading for . . . Allen Iverson’s expiring contract. That shifts this out of “crazy” and into “gutsy.” Pistons fans have been disappointed with the team’s performance over the past couple of seasons, but the fact remains that they’ve been much better than most NBA teams. I might well have thought that leaving well enough alone was a reasonable policy. But instead he’s looking to rebuild. Gutsy. We’ll see.
Meanwhile, Denver’s decision-making makes no sense. The Camby trade was a clear move to cut costs and rebuild. But this is a “win now” move. A team of Billups, JR Smith, Carmelo Anthony, Kenyon Martin, and Marcus Camby with Antonio McDyess, Nene, and Anthony Carter coming off the bench would be a very good team. Probably still not better than the Lakers or the Jazz, but very good. What they’ve got now is just “eh.”
55 Responses to “The Iverson Trade”
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November 4th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
The rumor on the interwebs is that Dumars is trying to use Iverson leverage to lure away Lebron to the D in 2010. I don’t know if I see that deal happening, but with electoral politics over basketball politics is just beginning.
November 4th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Denver got the better player, and Iverson did not fit in their play. So their decision making totally make sense. Plus, Billups is cheap compared to the answer, and if they buy out Dice, they’ll save money on their salary cap. It’s totally rational.
November 4th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
The Camby trade was a clear move to cut costs and rebuild. But this is a “win now” move.
Billups is under contract for the next four years. This is a win-in-the-first-Obama-administration move.
A team of Billups, JR Smith, Carmelo Anthony, Kenyon Martin, and Marcus Camby with Antonio McDyess, Nene, and Anthony Carter coming off the bench would be a very good team. Probably still not better than the Lakers or the Jazz, but very good.
Then really, what’s the point?
November 4th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
I disagree. I think what Denver has now is just “meh.”
November 4th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
I still find it hilarious that a proposed year 2000, 14-person trade involving the 76ers, Pistons, and one other team where Iverson was the centerpiece was blocked by MATT GEIGER’S NO-TRADE CLAUSE! Don’t fuck with the Geiger Counter!
November 4th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
But of course Dumars isn’t crazy so it became clear that he wasn’t trading for Iverson at all, he’s trading for . . . Allen Iverson’s expiring contract.
D’uh, Matt.
What inquring minds want to know is, who will be available for Dumars to pursue.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
I haven’t seen AI play much the last few years, but Detroit really needed someone who could get to the basket/line when they get in one of their scoring funks. AI used to be great at this, maybe he still can be for 30-35 minutes a night.
Billups was very effective but the Pistons have other guys who can shoot and pass almost as well. So while Billups may be a better player now, AI significantly improves the diversity of skills on the floor.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
hm…given that you call it “the iverson trade” and not “the billups trade” makes me think that the better player is still believed by you to be iverson.. either way.. (perhaps its just convention you titled it as such)..
detroit wins all around.. more cap space, better player, and dumps a completely replaceable player as well. denver gets no younger, no more cap space, no more talent, or anything with this trade, other than bringing home a colorado star.
me thinks denver got robbed on this. and iverson shows up in detroit like garnett showed up in boston.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Billups has faded in the playoffs 2 years in a row. If Iverson fits, they can re-sign him; if not, Stuckey will be ready to start anyway. Dumars wasn’t willing to “stand pat” and only do well without winning the championship. And who knows, Billups might be good for Carmelo.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
One of the few people in pro sports I will question is Joe D. It is definitely a chess move.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
I meant to say I will not question Joe D’s judgment or integrity. Of course when you reach this level that integrity gets pretty hard to hold onto.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Yeah, this seems like a win for Detroit. What I’ve read suggests that Bosh is the primary target. He’s not getting LeBron or Wade.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Only in the NBA does getting the worst players in a trade translate to genius.
Anyway, who’s Dumars going to sign with Iverson’s expiring money? LeBron will bolt to the Brooklyn Jay-Z’s, and Bosh and Wade will both re-sign in their current locations.
Hey, maybe they can re-sign Darko!?
November 4th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
denver gets no younger,
Billups is a year younger.
no more cap space,
Billups makes $10 million less this season than Iverson.
no more talent, or anything with this trade,
They get a pass-first point guard who can play defense! Have you forgotten who else plays on this team??
November 4th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!
The Pistons just gave up any hope of a championship this season. And next season, probably.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
For reasons I cannot explain, even to myself, I am completely in the tank for AI. So I like this trade for Detroit.
But even if you are not in the tank for AI, something had to change for the Pistons. Their crew had gone about as far as it was going to go, and they are only getting older. I’d say worse-case is that AI provides a fan-friendly distraction while Detroit finally gets its promising young guys (Stuckey, Maxiell and Amir Johnson) on the court. And best case, AI actually buys into the team concept and the Pistons go somewhere.
Yeah, yeah, I know I just said “AI” and “team concept” in the same sentence without a “not” in there. I said I was in the tank for him.
I like the trade for Denver, too. Everyone knew the AI/Melo thing wasn’t working, and not only did they get something for AI, they got the high-value Billups.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
I think it’s an interesting trade. Detroit gets a score-like-crazy penetrator to complement their outside shooters; Denver gets a pass-first, defensive-oriented “pure” PG who can feed their more prolific scorers and a couple of big dudes who may help shore up the D.
Though I like the Pistons’ chances more then the Nuggets’, I think the result will be interesting for both teams.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Detroit wasn’t winning the championship this year. The Celtics are still substantially better. Magic and Cleveland are also arguably better team. It’s a smart trade, really. Puts butts in the seats this year and creates serious cap room for next year. Would LeBron rather go to Detroit and have an immediate shot at a title, or Knick/Nets and be on a team no better than his current squad.
As far as Denver goes….meh is just about right, though it gives Carmelo space to prove that he is the alpha dog that he obviously sees himslef as.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Yeah, this seems like a win for Detroit. What I’ve read suggests that Bosh is the primary target.
Well, I’m not sure how you can say it is a “win” for Detroit at this point, given that we don’t know how the whole free agency thing will work out. What we can say is that it is a possible win for Detroit, depending on that signficant future event.
That said, two other points come to mind:
1. Rasheed’s contract will be expiring, so Detroit is going to have mucho cap space (even though they extended Rip today).
2. Looks like they wanted to make playing time available for Stuckey at the point. I don’t know whether that means a three guard offense (playing both Rip and AI) or if Rip or AI’s minutes will be decreased.
Ballsey move by Dumars, which could (like the Darko move) backfire in his face.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
No no no no no. Camby was never as good here as his stats. His blocks came off guards who drove past AI and JR, who did not care enough to play d. No one else hit the boards, especially after Kenyon blew out his knee. Camby whined a lot. Someone in his past lied to him about his jump shot, so he took it and missed it at the worst times. All told, a bad teammmate with an inflated reputation.
AI has a lot of miles on his skinny legs. 5 for 20 is as likely as 13 for 20. 20 shots is the sure thing. He didn’t understand here that his teammates weren’t eleven role players. I’m glad they’re both gone.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
BTW, as far as Denver is concerned, Billups is the better player for them and is a more natural fit (where they can play Chauncey and JR Smith in the backcourt). But, reagrdless of the trade, their season is going to come down to whether KMart and Nene can be productive at the 4/5. They have a ton of money devoted to those guys and will not be able to go anywhere without them giving significant production in return for their huge salaries. It’s no different now than before the trade.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Despite being a lifelong Pistons fan as well as a Joe Dumars admirer my reaction was similar. Then I recalled one of Ian Thomsen’s points from his piece in the Sports Illustrated NBA preview issue. “Don’t be afraid of players supposedly on the downide of their careers,” Thomsen wrote. This changes my attitude towards the trade. The Answer will now have renewed urgency, just like KG and Ray Ray. Sure his expiring contract’s nice–OK, it’s really nice–but the window’s closing fast on the Pistons and this trade is just what they need.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
I am completely in the tank for AI.
His history of trollish commenting on Matt’s blog is hard to ignore . . .
November 4th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Glad you acknowledged the relative success of the Pistons in your article. Some of us are Timberwolves fans, you know.
November 4th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
“When I first heard that the Pistons had traded for Allen Iverson, I thought Joe Dumars had lost his mind. Give up your best player (and a useful rotation guy) in exchange for a more famous, but worse, player who plays the same position “
I count three errors in the above statement. Find all three, and win valuable prizes!
“Meanwhile, Denver’s decision-making makes no sense. The Camby trade was a clear move to cut costs and rebuild. But this is a “win now” move.”
This is waaaaay off the mark.
If Denver had gotten noting out of Iverson’s expiring contract, they would have been up shit creek for the ‘09-’10 and ‘10-’11 seasons.
They can’t “rebuild” until K-Mart’s untradable contract comes off the books. By locking in Billups until then, they give their fans a non-taxpaying but competitive team during the rest of the K-Mart years, and can theoretically seamlessly rebuild in the summer of 2011.
And they get themselves out of paying luxury tax immediately, which was the mandate ownership handed down.
Plus, they get a PG to help develop ‘Melo, Nene, and Smith.
—–
“But of course Dumars isn’t crazy so it became clear that he wasn’t trading for Iverson at all, he’s trading for . . . Allen Iverson’s expiring contract.”
Well, no. It’s a bit more involved than that. Dumars gets a two-fer here.
1) He dumps Billups’ contract and gets far under the cap this summer - and the summer after, if he chooses to wait.
2) He gets a genuine chance to compete for a title this year, which he didn’t have before the trade.
If things go well, he can bring back Bubbachuck and Rasheed next year. If things don’t, he can start rebuilding in ‘09-’10. This year becomes a free shot at the title.
And regardless of what happens this year, he puts Detroit in the position of being the most likely team to sign Iverson next season at MLE prices, which has value for Detroit.
—–
The most interesting thing here, which Matthew ignores, of course, is evaluating Detroit’s chances this year.
They’ve got a lot of untested players in the rotation, especially if McDyess doesn’t return, which I think he will. And they may need to sign a veteran or two after the trade deadline. But I think they can play with Boston and Cleveland, assuming the pieces they have fit together in practice as well as they do in theory.
Iverson really does seem to fill the need they’ve had the past few years - getting anyone whatsoever who can draw double-teams. And with that need filled, their roster suddenly becomes dangerous.
November 4th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Billups–Mr. Big Shot–is cool in the clutch; says the most nervous he’s ever been was warming up the crowd at a Barack Obama rally…. the night of Al Gore’s endorsement.
November 4th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
“Rasheed’s contract will be expiring, so Detroit is going to have mucho cap space (even though they extended Rip today).”
1) The Rip extension has no impact on their cap space situation the next two years.
2) Extending Rip was a classic Dumars move. He committed very few additional dollars, and the money was essentially just a confidence building move for Dumars to let Rip know that he wasn’t being pushed aside in their plans by the Iverson trade.
November 4th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
“Looks like they wanted to make playing time available for Stuckey at the point. I don’t know whether that means a three guard offense (playing both Rip and AI) or if Rip or AI’s minutes will be decreased.”
If you divide up the 96 backcourt minutes among the three guards with Stuckey getting 25mpg, that leaves 35mpg for both Rip and AI before you even start getting into playing three guards for a couple of stretches every game.
Stuckey is the future, not the present. They were talking 25mpg for Stuckey before the trade. Dumping Billups’ contract frees up bigger minutes for Stuckey in future years, not this year.
November 4th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
“Give up your best player (and a useful rotation guy) in exchange for a more famous, but worse, player who plays the same position”
I count three errors in the above statement. Find all three, and win valuable prizes!
AI is actually better than Chauncy.
Chauncy is not the best player on the Pistons (arguably the best player, but you can also make the argument for Sheed, Rip, and some would make it for Prince).
He doesn’t play the same position as Chauncy. He will play the point primarily, but Joe D also said he’ll play SG when Stuckey plays and that they’ll go a three guard set a lot with Sheed and Tay.
November 4th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Congratulations to Brian. Your new washer/dryer and cruise tickets to Puerto Vallarta are on the way…
November 4th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
I actually do think AI is still better than Billups, but there’s no doubt in my mind that Billups will be better for Denver. I don’t know what the hell the Nuggets were thinking, trying to build a team around Iverson and Melo. There was just no way Carmelo was going to develop the right way sharing the ball with Iverson. Billups can score, but he’ll take about 8 shots a game fewer than AI will, and as long as Melo gets most of those, they’ll be cool. It doesn’t really help them contend in the West, but it might get them into the playoffs.
I have no idea what’s going to happen to Detroit. What about their D? Billups was an above-average defender, even at his advanced age. Iverson at the point in their defense is a scary thought (scary-bad, not scary-good). And Iverson isn’t really a penetrator anymore. He comes off screens and shoots mid-range jumpers. Let’s see, isn’t there somebody on the Pistons who plays the 2-guard and already fills that exact role?
As a cap management move, it’s great. As a roster move for this year, it could work. And for pure entertainment value, I like having AI and Sheed on the same team. So, I say Dumars did just fine. But I don’t think the team is any better for this year than before the trade. It sure doesn’t put them past Cleveland or Boston. They’re down at the Orlando-Toronto tier in the East, and Orland and Toronto are both built around young guys who should be getting better.
November 4th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
“I have no idea what’s going to happen to Detroit. What about their D? Billups was an above-average defender, even at his advanced age. Iverson at the point in their defense is a scary thought”
Iverson is fine on D just as long as he’s paired up with another guard with size. He’s excellent at steals, and is the best guard in the league at drawing offensive fouls and disrupting passing lanes.
The problems come in when he’s matched up with another small guard and his lack of size gets exposed. Given that both Rip and Stuckey have size, I don’t think it’s an issue.
—–
“And Iverson isn’t really a penetrator anymore. He comes off screens and shoots mid-range jumpers.”
Well… The mid-range game has been his bread and butter for most of his career. Since relatively early in his career, he’s lived on 10 footers, not layups.
He still penetrates well, and still (as of last season) can’t be stopped with single-coverage.
Folks like Matthew and Dave Berri consistently miss the importance of having a player who demands double-coverage. It frees up other offensive options in a vicious way.
In a certain sense, Iverson was misplaced on Denver since having two guys who demand double-coverage (in Iverson and ‘Melo) is a bit of a diminishing returns situation. One guy who draws double-coverage is all you can really make use of. You just surround that guy with shooters and finishers, and you’re set.
—–
“I like having AI and Sheed on the same team”
“Like” is an understatement here…
“But I don’t think the team is any better for this year than before the trade. It sure doesn’t put them past Cleveland or Boston. They’re down at the Orlando-Toronto tier in the East”
Who knows how well this is all going to work on the court, rather than on paper.
But they now have a serious chance to beat Cleveland and Boston, which they didn’t really have before the trade.
Maybe things don’t mesh and they fall down a notch, but given that the cap situation allows them to rebuild next summer if things don’t work, it’s still a free shot at a title that they didn’t have before the trade.
(And FWIW, Toronto seems clearly in a higher tier than Orlando this year…)
November 4th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Obviously giving up Camby for nothing was indefensible in basketball terms, but I think a lot of people are overrating Camby. We’re seeing the real Marcus Camby now: a guy in street clothes at the end of the bench. The Nuggets got very lucky that he went a couple of years without serious injuries. You can never count on him to play more than 60ish games.
Camby’s a good defensive player: very good at some things, not so good at other things, but overall, pretty good. Offensively, he can be a liability, if you don’t have another big guy with some presence in the post.
November 4th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
“Offensively, (Camby) can be a liability, if you don’t have another big guy with some presence in the post.”
Far above average as a high post passer. Above average in setting picks and court awareness. He just can’t score the ball worth a damn.
“Camby’s a good defensive player: very good at some things, not so good at other things, but overall, pretty good.”
Best shot blocker in the league. Among the best help defenders in the league. Mildly above average rebounder. Average or below average as an on-ball defender in the post.
—–
Camby is wasted on a squad like the Clips, (and will likely not be motivated to stay out of street clothes), but would be a highly useful role player on a contending team.
November 4th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Denver fan here. Billups reputation as a defensive PG is nothing but kitch. He got the rep on his physical play and the quality team D the Pistons played. Now that he’s older and lost most of what lateral movement he once had he’s going to get toasted by the quick PGs he’ll face out west. At least he doesn’t make too many mistakes.
Having said that, the success of Denver is almost wholy dependant on how good K-mart and Nene can be. They’ll be in the hunt for the playoffs and the trade doesn’t change that but it’s a first round exit again for them (at best).
November 4th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Say what you will about AI, but he’s somebody who would shave 10 points off his PPG and 10 years off his lifespan IF he can wear a championship ring for what’s left of it. Yeah, this deal is more about economics (for both teams) than chemistry, but Detroit wasn’t getting past the conference finals anyway (assuming no injuries to any of the Celtics’ Big 3), so why not pull the trigger? It’s going to be exciting, especially with the Pistons going more uptempo under rookie coach Curry. Detroit’s backcourt is going to torch anyone with suspect defensive chops at either guard spot. The Pistons still have frontcourt issues, but who doesn’t?
Looks like the deal will be good for the Nuggets, too. Chaunce will provide them with leadership, minimal turnovers and steady outside shooting. Nobody thinks they’ll be in the West finals, but I think Mr. Big Shot’s skill set suits them better than AI’s did.
Oh, and about that Darko blot on Dumars’ otherwise shiny reputation (he drafted the subpar Serb over ‘Melo and D-Wade way back when)? The Pistons eventually did get the studly Stuckey out of that deal, so I’d say that story isn’t over yet.
November 4th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
This is simply a great move for Detroit.
Best of all, this frees up room for 2010. But it also brings a popular player to Detroit. I don’t think Detroit is better with Iverson. But they are a lot more interesting.
November 4th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
“I don’t think Detroit is better with Iverson.”
I don’t think anyone, Dumars included, knows if they’ll be better or not.
But their ceiling just got a lot higher this year. It’s high-risk / high-reward, but considering that didn’t have a viable shot at the title before the trade, high-risk / high-reward is a good thing.
November 5th, 2008 at 2:19 am
What I’ve read suggests that Bosh is the primary target.
and to think Detroit could have just drafted Bosh in 2003…
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