On the Plurality of Pizza
I decided I needed to beef up on the number of economics-related blogs I read regularly, so I subscribed to Capital Gains and Games (among other blogs) and what did I find but erstwhile budget expert Stan Collender trying to gin up traffic with a post asking for recommendations on where you can get the best pizza in the US. As a blogging gambit, this is a good tactic. But I think that for anyone who seriously wants to maintain that he’s “one of those people who considers pizza to be a basic food group” the only serious answer to this question is to respect the multiple styles of people and a certain degree of incommensurability between them. Some people, to be sure, like the one pictured in this post, are bunk. But beyond that, diversity reigns.
Just thinking about the best pizza in DC, I would tell people that Radius in Mount Pleasant is the closest imitation of a traditional New York pie. It brings me back to my childhood and to John’s Pizzeria down on Bleeker Street. I don’t have much experience with New Haven pizza, but on my couple of trips to that city I really enjoyed their distinctive white clam pizza, and Pete’s Apizza in Columbia Heights offers a decent imitation but the Yalie pie at Comet Pizza is better. I’d say Red Rocks now outshines Two Amy’s in terms of a fancy “gourmet” pie. And obviously to compare any of these to a Chicago pizza or even to an avant-garde California pie would be pointless. There’s no one “best” pizza in the world; rather, there are many pizzas worth trying and different styles for different moods.
70 Responses to “On the Plurality of Pizza”
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November 25th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Matthew, as a New Yorker interested in pizza, you have to check out this fascinating personal website that exhaustively covers New York-style pizza. The webdesign is terrible but the detail is incredible and he ranks and maps the best pizzerias in the USA.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:11 am
And many to avoid. Living at the edge of the Pizza Belt, I order slices with trepidation when I travel West. Pre-Yelp, I’ve had some seriously bad experiences.
I have to agree with your larger point, though. In my neighborhood there are 3 pizza places of local and, to some degree, national renown within a block of each other on the same side of the street. All serve a fine pie, but of different character. Locals are partisan, but they’ve all been thriving business for close to 20 years.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:11 am
I vote for Matchbox in DC as DC’s best pizza place.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:12 am
John’s on Bleecker is amazing. But my favorite pizza in the village area is The Famous Rays Pizza on 6th Ave and 11th. Joe’s Pizza on Carmine off 6th is delectable as well. Bleecker Street Pizza on bleecker and 7th is overrated.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Aniello’s, Corning, NY.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Pizza has more in common with spaghetti sauce (or mustard) than with ketchup. Malcolm Gladwell’s article is helpful here.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Matt, this is not right. There is a morally ordered solar system of pizza. New York pizza is at its center, although in reality the best pizzas are made in Trenton at the DeLorenzo’s on Hudson Street, then in New Haven on Wooster Street, then just about anywhere in New York (divide into strata as you will — not my area of expertise, though I’ve sampled enough to know that they’re behind Wooster Street and ahead of anywhere else.)
After anywhere in New York comes the DeLorenzo’s on Hamilton Street in Trenton. After that comes Italy. After that comes California pizza which is kind of an entertaining asteroid belt — not exactly a planet in this system, but still close in. After that comes deep dish Chicago pizza, described by one native comic as “a boot full of cheese”. Accurate, but I like the stuff.
Chains start here.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Patsy’s under the Brooklyn Bridge finally has a challenger in Lucali on Henry in Carroll Gardens, but that’s about it. I am always amused by the occasional rumor that someone outside Brooklyn is trying to pass something off as “pizza.”
November 25th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Red Rocks has a nicer atmosphere and is more conveniently located, but the crust can’t really stand up to Two Amy’s. Pizzeria Paradiso deserve a mention, too — they turn out consistently great pies.
Matchbox is okay but not seriously in the running, both for the quality of its pizzas and for the way it’s constantly mobbed with tourists.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Totally agree re: John’s on Bleecker, but FYI Matt there’s now one on 44th street in the Theater District too.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Matt, living in DC you have to try a slice from Vace’s like the next time you’re catching a movie at the Uptown or near there for some reason. Maybe it won’t be your favorite pizza in the DC area, especially measured by New York style criteria, but it will definitely leave a distinct and positive impression.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:56 am
No, no Matt, you’re doing it wrong. The proper way to discuss pizza (or other foodie passions) on the net is describe the “grail” of the pizza in the one table cafe in Naples, accessible only by crossing the caldera of Vesuvius on foot, with wizened centenarian chef who squeezes oil from the olives with his mighty fists, onto dough made from wheat grown from seed smuggled out of a pharaoh’s tomb, topped with three leaves from the One True Basil Plant and tomatoes blessed by the pope and the cheese … well, you get the drift. The post must be ended with an unsavory description of all other pizza, such as red vomit on cardboard. Your approach may lead people to think that food tastes are subjective and there are many appropriate ways to prepare food that appeal equally to different people. The next thing you know, conservatives will be marrying box turtles and there will be chaos in the streets.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:57 am
I’m almost over Radius. The crusts are just too soggy. Also, a little off topic, when delivering, they consistently arrive late and with a botched order. Consistently. Petes and Red Rocks for me.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Since all of the posts so far are mentioning East Coast pizza, I feel I need to speak up for us Chicagoans. Falco’s Pizza at 40th and Archer would qualify as the best pizza here. Phil’s at 35th and Aberdeen would be second. It’s all about southside Chicago thin crust pizza.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Let me second Paul on Vace in Cleveland Park. It’s strictly carry out, but is vastly superior to any of the restaurants I can think of in DC.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:09 am
Matthew, you mention that you recently added some econmics blogs to your reading list and I have been wanting to do that, but so far haven’t found much that I like. Any chance that you would share your reading list? Or others have any thoughts on the topic?
November 25th, 2008 at 11:12 am
“There’s no one “best” pizza in the world; rather, there are many pizzas worth trying and different styles for different moods.”
This is just plain false. It’s a good example of the type of wishy-washy moral relativism that turns people like Matthew into idiots.
As the first comment notes, the Varasano list is a good place to start in ranking pies. I concur with Varasano that John’s on Bleeker is definitely a second tier pie – good stuff, but much better exists within walking distance.
I also concur with Varasano that Luzzo’s is the “best” pie you can get, although the new Motorino in Williamsburg is pretty damn amazing – I’m going to have to go back to see if it’s really a contender for tier one.
And if you want a good pizza blog to keep up with events, the Levine/Kuban Slice blog is the place to go.
—–
And as an aside, I was watching a Phoenix Suns game on League Pass, and the broadcasters talked about Steve Kerr taking them out to Pizza Bianco, and how much they liked it.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Matt, this is not right. There is a morally ordered solar system of pizza. New York pizza is at its center.
Wow, that is just laughably wrong.
Naples is the center of Pizza-dom. They invented the modern pizza. Everything else is an adaptation of the margherita.
That said, I highly recommend Bob & Timmy’s in Providence.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:16 am
I’m definitely over Radius. The pizza and the atmosphere are good, but it’s way too expensive for what you get, especially considering that you can get a whole “gourmet” pie all to yourself for 12-15 bucks at Red Rocks or 2 Amys.
And I give my wholehearted endorsement to Vace. Indeed, Vace might be the reason I’m so over Radius.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Or there’s Pizzeria Bianco, which is fairly universally acknowledged to be the best pizza in the United States. I say this as someone who disliked several aspects of my experience there: on a purely technical level, the pizza is in an obviously different class than any of the top contenders in New York or New Haven.
(For reference, that’s Sally’s and Pepe’s in New Haven–from what I gather; I didn’t go to Yale so I have only received opinion plus having been to both–and Di Fara, and Neptune Ave. Totonno’s among old school NY places (Grimaldi’s and Patsy’s E. Harlem haven’t quite measured up in my experience), and Una Pizza Napoletana and Franny’s among more Italianate versions. John’s on Bleecker is disgusting, but complaining about Matt’s lack of taste is like complaining about his spelling of “Bleecker”.)
The style at Pizzeria Bianco is a bit too down-the-middle for my preference, but even if you hold that against it you can’t claim it’s not the best pizza. It’s basically the Michael Phelps of pizza; its superiority ceases to be a matter of opinion.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Petey,
Even Varasano’s list doesn’t really try to rank ALL pizzerias together. He leaves the Neapolitans in their own seperate category and states that they’re different enough from NY and other places to warrant their own list. So is the best of NYC better than the best of Naples? He doesn’t even attempt to answer that (but does admit that Naples deserves its reputation.)
November 25th, 2008 at 11:30 am
“Or there’s Pizzeria Bianco, which is fairly universally acknowledged to be the best pizza in the United States.”
I haven’t been to Phoenix since Bianco opened, so I can’t personally judge it.
But saying it’s “universally acknowledged to be the best pizza in the United States” is over-the-top falsity. Most folks do put Bianco in the top tier of North American pies, but almost no one says it’s alone at the top.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:36 am
“Even Varasano’s list doesn’t really try to rank ALL pizzerias together. He leaves the Neapolitans in their own seperate category”
Point taken.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Another vote for Vace. I couldn’t believe my luck when I moved from Cleveland Park to Bethesda and realized they had an outpost around the corner.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Malcolm Gladwell expounds upon the death of culinary Platonism in a TED Talk (February 2004).
November 25th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
This is such a perfect example of how the moral relativism of the decadent coastal elites is destroying the culinary fabric of America. God clearly favors the hearty, earthy wholesomeness of a Chicago deep dish over your skinny, skimpy, frail little New York-New England pies (though Artichoke on 14th Street is a definite contender), and Chicago pies save us untold billions in health care expenses by unleashing The Gripper on peeps before they can grow too old and develop expensive chronic degenerative diseases.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
“though Artichoke on 14th Street is a definite contender”
Yours taste matches your screenname…
November 25th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Actual Italian pizza in Italy is pretty good, you cretins.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
It’s spelled Bleecker. Jeez.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Just wondering, is there any subject for which New Yorkers will acknowledge they are not at the center of the universe?
November 25th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
“Just wondering, is there any subject for which New Yorkers will acknowledge they are not at the center of the universe?”
Paris has more charm.
Boston has a better NBA team.
Kyoto has more impressive Buddhist temples.
But in terms of pizza, the best pies in North America tend to be made in NYC or New Haven.
November 25th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
The best pizza in D.C. is down at Union Station right after you get back from NYC with a box of Original Ray’s.
November 25th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
The best pizza in the world is from Chicago! And I’m not talking about that deep-dish crap only tourists eat. Go to a neighborhood in Chicago, and get our thin crust. It has lots of flavor, and always comes with sausage.
New York pizza is alright, but it just doesn’t compare at all.
November 25th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
I’ve tried Two Amy’s and Pizza Paridiso in DC, but the best pizza in the DC area is Emilio’s Brick Oven pizza in Sterling, Virginia. I believe they also have a location in Leesburg.
November 25th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
That said, I highly recommend Bob & Timmy’s in Providence.
Botswana, you are awesome that’s a great place.
I live in NY, and the thing about giant cities like NY and Chicago is that there is so much shitty pizza the good stuff is either drowned out, or entirely too expensive, because it’s a big city and they can charge whatever and people will pay it. There is so much grease covered-fiberglass cheese-on cardboard pizza in NY it’s insane. I cannot eat it.
Go to New Haven or Providence, and almost every pizza place is pretty good to great, and the prices are reasonable. And Greek style places in Boston are good too, but there’s a lot of shitty pizza there too.
November 25th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
As a born and raised New Yorker for the first 20 years (Ancona’s Pizza in Valley Stream on LI), then the next 20 years in DC (sorry – 2Amys still wins), it kills me to read this discussion as I now sit in Cincinnati working. Appreciate what you have, people – you may find yourself eating cardboard with ketchup one day like what they call “pizza” here … sigh ….
November 25th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
“Best Pizza” discussions always result in an intolerable level of NYC snobbery.
November 25th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
The Domino’s at 13th and L.
November 25th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
“I live in NY, and the thing about giant cities like NY … is that there is so much shitty pizza the good stuff is either drowned out … There is so much grease covered-fiberglass cheese-on cardboard pizza in NY it’s insane. I cannot eat it.”
That’s got to be the stupidest comment on the post by a pretty wide margin.
You could choose to patronize the good pie-makers in NYC over the the bad ones, rather than just choosing random stores with “Pizza” signs out front, y’know. That would solve your odd problem of bad pies “drowning out” the good ones…
November 25th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
“Best Pizza” discussions always result in an intolerable level of NYC snobbery.”
It’s not snobbery to simply note that the twentieth best pizza place in NYC makes significantly better pies than the best place in DC metro.
It ain’t bragging if it’s true.
November 25th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
I learned this weekend the secret to getting better pizza at Radius is to ask for it “well done.” Otherwise, the best is Vace, with Radius and Red Rocks just behind. Paradiso is inconsistent, and every time I’ve been to 2 Amys, it’s been burnt to a crisp.
November 25th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
“I learned this weekend the secret to getting better pizza at Radius is to ask for it “well done”
This trick actually works at almost any bad or mediocre pizzeria.
And it’s a pretty useful trick. If you request “well done”, most places will actually put a little char on the pie.
November 25th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
My favorite: Four Brothers, Rhinebeck, NY. Also really great Greek salads there. Best part of Thanksgiving weekend! (besides the pumpkin pie)
Patsy’s under the bridge is the best non 4-bros pizza I have ever had. Various Manhattan pizza stands provide good slices when one is hungry from walking.
Also, after 15 years in the VA suburbs of DC I have finally found decent “NY-style” pizza at Quattro Formaggi on Duke Street. Delicious, large foldable greasy slices, and they use excellent pepperoni. A new pizza joint just opened up in my building which gets good Yelp ratings (Pizzaiolo), but I found it to be just sort of OK with good cheese but an overdone crust.
November 25th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Best? Who knows, but Moroni and Brothers on Georgia Avenue is pretty great, and, in my opinion, just kills Red Rocks.
November 25th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
On Maui:
Shaka Pizza in Kihei has the quality I’ve associated with good pizza joints near various Southwestern/Californian/Hawaiian universities.
The Flatbread Company in Paia is the new non-chain kid, with an excellent selection of (very) thin crust pies, and a reasonably quirky ambiance, particularly when resident trustafarians drop in for lunch.
November 25th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
You could choose to patronize the good pie-makers in NYC over the the bad ones, rather than just choosing random stores with “Pizza” signs out front, y’know. That would solve your odd problem of bad pies “drowning out” the good ones…
Oh Petey, your douchbaggyness is as dependable as the turn of the seasons or endless Seinfeld re-runs.
In a place like Providence or New Haven, you don’t have to “choose to patronize” the good pizza places, since they are all good to great. Is it that much to ask to walk to a random place and expect good pizza?
November 25th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
The Pizza Opinion Spectrum paints a better picture of America than opinions about cats, Mitt Romney, and black jelly beans do. Always fascinating.
November 25th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Neil:
Got a chance to follow your link. “Exhaustively” doesn’t begin to cover it; it’s damn-near obsessive. But I’ll be printing it out or bookmarking it soon and will no doubt gain 20 pounds before spring. Thanks a lot.
November 25th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
The best pizza I’ve ever had – by far – is Truby’s Wood-Fired Pizza, late of Whitefish, MT, and apparently soon to reopen in nearby Columbia Falls.
The ‘gourmet’ pizzerias of the East Coast seem to expand the repertoire of pizza possibilities only slightly – running the gamut from A to B, as Dorothy Parker might say. Some might make it to C or D. Truby’s goes deep into the alphabet. Their thai pizza is a thing of astounding beauty, both tastewise and visually.
November 25th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
“In a place like Providence or New Haven, you don’t have to “choose to patronize” the good pizza places, since they are all good to great. Is it that much to ask to walk to a random place and expect good pizza?”
I’m a big advocate of New Haven (and to a much lesser degree, Providence) pies.
And I’ll fully agree with you, Andrew Fly, that there are places in New England that are better in terms of “the median pie” than NYC.
But NYC is still pizza heaven. You can find at least one really good pie-maker in any neighborhood. That means if you live in the more civilized places of NYC, you have elite pie within walking distance.
I take nothing away from New Haven and its tributaries, but that’s still pretty fucking good.
November 25th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
I agree. The same thing happens when NY’ers go on about bagels. I personally think that there’s more truth to the superiority of NYC bagels than with NYC pizza, but opinions vary.
However, at least NYC (and the east coast in general) gets crushed when it comes to things like coffee. Perhaps that’s why I never hear people from NY ever start “best coffee” discussions.
November 25th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
“The ‘gourmet’ pizzerias of the East Coast seem to expand the repertoire of pizza possibilities only slightly – running the gamut from A to B … Truby’s goes deep into the alphabet. Their thai pizza is a thing of astounding beauty, both tastewise and visually.”
That’s because the NYC to New Haven corridor is operating within a very narrow Neapolitan spectrum of the theme and repetition of wheat, tomato, and mozz under high heat for mere moments.
There is nothing wrong with baroque stylings, but sometimes classical arrangements can be deeply satisfying.
In NYC, Two Boots makes quite passable “deep into the alphabet” pies, but with the amazing Neo-Neapolitan competition, I rarely eat the Two Boots pies. (The Bayou Beast is yummy.)
November 25th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
“The ‘gourmet’ pizzerias of the East Coast seem to expand the repertoire of pizza possibilities only slightly – running the gamut from A to B “
Or to put it another way, take a look at the pie menu at Motorino, low-tech cyclist. Is that a limited gamut, or is it heaven?
I say the latter…
November 25th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Vace!!
November 25th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
I like how “California pizza” has gotten this sort of consistent, grudging nod throughout the thread. I would say the best in this category is Cheeseboard pizza in Berkeley–quintessentially Californian with all sorts of super fresh veggies and gourmet cheeses, and the restaurant is a co-op to boot.
I’d like to become conversant in new york style pizza, but it’s hard to know where to look in the bay area. I’ve heard new yorkers claim that Arinell’s does credible new york style pies…
November 25th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Petey – I’ll definitely have to check out Two Boots the next time I’m in NYC.
Unfortunately, Motorino looks like exactly the sort of ‘gourmet’ pizza menu I’ve seen too depressingly often. It’s exactly what I had in mind as the B (OK, the (yecch!) brussels sprouts take it to C) to the standard mozzarella and tomato-sauce pizza’s A.
November 25th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
I agree that Moroni & Brothers definitely outshines Red Rocks and I think would put them out of business if it were in a more convenient location.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Comments like Lauren’s are music to my ears. Anytime somebody calls Petworth not “convenient” (which is usually code for too black), it gives me hope that I have another couple years before Looking Glass Lounge, Sweet Mango Cafe, and all the other cool spots in Petworth turn into Wonderland.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
Along the lines of Matt’s argument that there are many varieties, WTOP recently held a poll of top pizza and the winner was Ledo’s, which is nothing like any other pizza and would undoubtedly disappoint many arguing for their favorites.
And I enjoyed a slice from Bleeker Street Pizza last time I was in the Village.
November 26th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
I don’t think you can say something like, “there is no one best pizza place” if you haven’t had pizza in New Haven.
I’ve tried all the best places in NYC, including Brooklyn. I now live in SF, so I’ve had all the best here (Pauline’s Pizza in SF is a MUST for a unique California thin crust with the best ingredients).
But nothing. Not a thing. Has ever come close to Pepe’s in New Haven. Amazing. So far beyond the rest that there’s just no comparison. I never tried Sally’s because Pepe’s was so freakin’ amazing the first time I tried it that every time I made it to New Haven, I couldn’t risk missing out on Pepe’s.
November 28th, 2008 at 12:03 am
noseeum said: I never tried Sally’s because Pepe’s was so freakin’ amazing the first time I tried it that every time I made it to New Haven, I couldn’t risk missing out on Pepe’s.
I admire the dedication, but you are missing out on the best pizza in the world. You are, however, eating the second-best pizza in the world, so you’re doing pretty well.
Look, there’s a lot of excellent pizza in this country. But after Wooster St in New Haven, the next best pizza is a very distant third.
Try it. You’ll see.
That said: I want to try that place in Phoenix. It’s so weird that I wonder if it’s true.
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