Matthew Yglesias » National ID

Nov 2nd, 2008 at 2:20 pm

National ID

For whatever reason, nobody’s supposed to say this, but I have to agree with Kevin Drum that implementing a National ID Card system would help solve a lot of problems at what looks to me to be an extremely low cost in civil liberties. It’s absolutely nutty that the country’s chosen to embrace all sorts of serious curtailments of said liberties, often for little-to-know gain in security, while still eschewing a relatively simple measure that could be genuinely useful in a variety of contexts.

Comments
115

115 Responses to “National ID”

fumphis Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:31 pm
little-to-know gain in security

Really?
John Ehrenfeld Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:31 pm
I completely agree. It is only the combination of an ID and a paranoid government that is the real danger. The benefits far outweigh the dangers. For travelers, I can think of the relief at the check-in desks already.
vern Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Are you sure you meant to write “little-to-know” instead of “little to no”?
John Ehrenfeld Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:36 pm
I agree. The danger of any kind of required personal documentation comes in combination with a paranoid government. We have been flirting with such an attitude, but hopefully will see a change in the direction soon. The benefits seem to me to far outweigh the dangers. Paranoids will find other ways even in the absence of national ID’s. Those who are concerned must fight for open leaders and not expend their energies on smaller issues.
rupert Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Okay, Big Brother.
fishdeath Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Sounds better than the GPS tracker the great state of Wisconsin implanted in my ass.
robertdfeinman Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:53 pm
What is there in the history of the US that gives you confidence that a national ID card won’t be abused?

Once it exists it rapidly becomes an internal passport. Furthermore entities that have no need to know what you are doing will start to demand it as ID for all sorts of transactions which should be able to be anonymous. This then leads to a universal system for tracking people’s actions and travel.

The first principle of civil liberties is the right to remain anonymous. Your mistake is thinking that many of the uses for ID that have arisen are actually valid.

The first breach of privacy was with airline travel. Having secured the cockpits and added increased inspection of passengers the leap to identifying (and blocking) travelers seemed logical. It wasn’t. I don’t care how “dangerous” someone may be in principle, if they have been searched properly then they should be able to travel as they please.

Tracking people as the TSA does now and putting them on a special list is condemning people for thoughts, not actions.

We have also seen examples such as at the two conventions where police detained people because of who they were, not because of anything they had done or were even planning to do.

Sorry, national ID cards are not the way to go, restoring people’s right to be left alone is the proper course of action.
24AheadDotCom Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Look, let’s face it: we’ve already accepted so many privacy restrictions for not much gain, we might as well just go whole hog and finally do something that would make us all completely safe: an iris scan of everyone in the U.S. and of all newborns. Complete with low-cost readers available to merchants and even as USB devices, we’d no longer need everything from easily-lost plastic credit cards to email passwords. It would make everything safe and be extremely good for commerce.

On the other hand, perhaps others should consider doing what I do now: don’t trust anything MattY and Kevin Drum say.
fostert Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:58 pm
We already have a national ID. It’s called your social security number. When I was young, I didn’t want to register for the draft, but my father forced me to. So I deliberately misspelled my name, gave a wrong address, and generally wrote so illegibly that nobody could possibly get the correct information from that form. But I did clearly write the SSN. A few weeks later, I got confirmation and all of my information was magically correct. How did that happen? It seems that by referencing my social security number, they already had all the information. That was 22 years ago, think technology might have improved since then? Given that with a social security number, you can access a person’s financial records, medical records, purchasing habits, party affiliation, credit rating, value of house, and who knows what else; what aspect of our privacy is really left to protect? What privacy could this national ID take away that has not already been taken away?
David Kaib Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:58 pm
The value added from this idea is just about zero. Congress could impose the positive elements of this plan (making government responsible for getting IDs into people’s hands without much effort or expense on their part, and ensuring that each person only got one) regardless of whether the IDs themselves are issued by states or the federal government.

On the other hand, saddling the effort to make democracy work better with the negative connotations associated with a national ID system is a great way to undermine that effort, regardless of whether anyone thinks that people who would response negatively to such a plan are foolish.
Marshall Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:01 pm
For travelers, I can think of the relief at the check-in desks already.

What relief might that be ? (I am serious, I travel a lot and I do not see what relief a national ID would bring.)
superdestroyer Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:05 pm
It is humorous to read progressives who want nationalized health care with a national electronic medical record but then worry about the government requiring a national I.D.

How do people believe national healthcare with a nationlized medical record will work without a national I.D. Do you really want someone at an emergency room using your identify when they have an STD or Small Pox?
McKingford Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:05 pm
This might well curtail any Hawaiian driver’s licenses named McLovin. And that would be a very bad thing.
example Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:13 pm
There is a huge difference between a national identity card and a national identity system. For example, we could all have an ID we could use for mail and and voting without making it a photo ID. On the other hand, a lot of people don’t like the idea of having a national photo ID.

Rather then having to worry about knowing someone’s address, you’d just mail something to their ID, and the postal service would do a database check to see where you want your mail delivered.

You could also use it for a permanent voter registration, and update your information when you move.

But anyway, state driver’s licenses work fine as an identifying document. And you can get a federal passport, which is also a national ID.

Kevin Drum’s idea of roving vans registering people would absolutely freak out the libertarians. Hah.
example Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:16 pm
How do people believe national healthcare with a nationlized medical record will work without a national I.D. Do you really want someone at an emergency room using your identify when they have an STD or Small Pox?

If we had a national healthcare system, hospitals wouldn’t even need to bother IDing people when they came in. And why would anyone steal an identity if they could already get health insurance.
robertdfeinman Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:16 pm
I’d just like to point out that this blog uses software to track visitors.

Since I’ve turned off the ability of this software to place cookies on my computer I have to enter my (real) name each time I wish to post a comment.

What valid reason is there for this site to track my actions?

I run a web site and like all of them the web server software keeps a log of visitor’s IP addresses. It is thus possible to see if one gets return visitors, but this is a far different thing than correlating it with a person’s identity and email address.

Perhaps Matthew sees nothing wrong with this violation of privacy and therefore see nothing wrong with a national ID. In that case he might want to study a bit of history to see how well national ID’s worked out in the past.

Notice that I always post under my real name so this is not an issue of anonymity it is an issue of choosing when you wish to remain anonymous.
Will Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Ok, this post seals it - enough is enough - I’m unsubscribing from your RSS Matt for a little while. Why have you careened so far to the left (the bad big state left) Matt?? You used to be a Yin to Sullivan’s (et al) Yang. Something I, and I suspect, quite a few other moderates thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated.

This election has done something to you man. You’ve settled down, gotten married (had a kid?) - perhaps that’s changed things? Perhaps keeping your own proverbial head above water has gotten a little more difficult? I dunno - just throwing darts - whatever the reason, please get back to your former, far more resolute self - we in the middle need ya
zic Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:26 pm
I’m against it. All of a sudden, you’ve got this tag following you through life, with all kinds of info attached to it; you’re shopping habits, banking info, credit problems, job history, legal history. . .you think John Edward’s tale of two America’s had a grain of truth to it, it would really ring true after the potential of a national ID and the supposed benefits, like the banking data that’s being traded around on you got attached to it.

Privacy, please, and more of it. The assumption that we’re innocent. An end to profiling.
Colatina Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
I think to some extent our sensitivity about civil liberties are dictated by 1) references to 1984 and other dystopian literature, and 2) Christian eschatology. So if something can be construed as being the mark of the beast then a lot of people will get more worked up about that than we will about e.g. protestors being abused. Fortunately, warrantless wiretapping brings to mind scenes and phrases from 1984 so I’m sure that’s produced some opposition to the scheme.
seventwentyfour Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:37 pm
For whatever reason…

And we’re supposed to take a counter-argument seriously when you can’t be bothered to even mention concerns about a national ID program?

You should have just used the dismissive “tin foil hat” phrase there. It lets the reader know there’s no intellectual depth ahead. I’m not likely to agree that a national ID program is a good idea until I see our government not commonly abusing existing programs and mere wrist slaps for violations that only make it into the public realm because they’re so egregious. (Anyone gone to jail yet for warrantless wiretaps before Congress decided to wad up the 4th Amendment and say ‘okey-dokey’? No? Anyone gone to jail yet for hiring DOJ staff based on political affiliation? No?) But I’m still interested in arguments for such a program. What I’m not interested in is dismissing concerns about civil liberties with rhetoric that’s so common to the right wing. That is, “I can’t be bothered with a bunch of kooks and their worries about government ‘accountability’.”
nabalzbbfr Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Here is another dirty trick the Obama campaign is orchestrating for Nov. 4. They are planning to bus in Obama supporters (who presumably have already early voted) into Republican leaning precincts. They have been coached to create long lines and look intimidating to real voters and then create further chaos inside the polling places by getting into long drawn out arguments with poll workers. The idea is to make the voting process intolerably long and unpleasant, causing many Republican voters to leave without voting.
JonF Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Re: Once it exists it rapidly becomes an internal passport. Furthermore entities that have no need to know what you are doing will start to demand it as ID for all sorts of transactions which should be able to be anonymous. This then leads to a universal system for tracking people’s actions and travel.

Why hasn’t all this already happened with drivers licenses? Or for that matter, with credit/debit cards which also create a paper trail of your movements and purchases. Or cell phone calls, which show your movements.
My own preferrence would be for a minimalist national ID, with very limited info: your photo, your name, an expiration date and a serial number for the card (the latter just for the card, not an ID # for the person). No RFID chip (but maybe a magnetic strip). No SS# on the card, or birth date or address info (to prevent the card from becoming a one-stop shop for ID thieves). Card to be issued at 18 and renewed every ten years, at no charge to the bearer (but a small charge to replace a lost/stolen card). Maybe a different background color for citizens vs non-citizen residents.

Re: …ensuring that each person only got one

Assuming the info is correct and the same, why would it matter how many ID cards a person had? Right now anyone who wants to be pay for an extra drivers license can claim a lost license and get another one. And I don’t see why this would be a security problem.
mort Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:41 pm
It is humorous to read progressives who want nationalized health care with a national electronic medical record but then worry about the government requiring a national I.D.
Other than Dennis Kucinich, maybe, who is talking about nationalized health care??
raft Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:41 pm
the SS number doesn’t have photo and it’s not very good at tracking changes in address. a well-designed national ID would be much harder to steal or fake, it would streamline a lot of processes (i.e. voting), and you could attach credit cards, bank accounts, keys, etc. This is why many other countries have such IDs.

for the people pining after the bygone era of anonymous privacy (i.e. “robertdfeinman,” whoever that is, though i suspect he’s a pasty white middle-aged techie growing weed in his basement), the crusade is cute but let’s face the reality–the Internet, google, and facebook have destroyed all semblance of privacy. forget about the government spying on people’s personal information, YOU can do it. Others can do it to you. A national ID will only standardize and streamline what’s already happened.
robbehrman Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:41 pm
The issue is not the paranoid government, is paranoia in people in government and public mistrust of the government. As robertdfeinman accurately points out, there really isn’t much in the history that makes us trust that it won’t be abused.

But what you’ve already got - a combination of national indices under the SSN and state indices under your DL/State ID - has the same potential for abuse and more lax and nonstandardized controls. The government can already abuse the system it’s got in the same way that it could abuse a new system. That’s easy. The system is already abused in so many ways (e.g., SSNs being linked to private credit reporting), it amazes me that people fear potential abuse.

When it comes down to it, having a national ID will make it easier for the government to provide a lot of services. As a necessary consequence, it will also make it easier for the government to abuse some of those services if it, or people inside it, choose to do so. That’s so true as to be facetious.

But, when it comes down to it, you aren’t protected from government abuse by making the government suck at doing abusable things, you’re protected from government abuse by making the government not want to abuse you.

I think with this issue, the nitty gritty details of HOW it would work are extremely important. A national ID number, with a mechanism for dervied state ID numbers, legislative requirements for database linkages, and a separate or distinct portion of the ID number that is authorized for public release (i.e., private organizations can only ask for a unique part of the ID number, not the whole thing that would let them link or look up government info without additional info), would add a lot. Faulty implementation would be worse.
Freddie Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:44 pm
One of the simple dignities of living in an actually free country is not having jackboots capable of saying “Where are your papers?” Requiring idea is always used for harassment and intimidation. Always. It’s another tool to allow anyone with a badge to stop a citizen who isn’t doing anything, make demands on them and potential arrest them simply for not carrying something. And carrying idea is exactly the kind of positive responsibility that democracies shouldn’t enforce on their people. No thanks.
seventwentyfour Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:44 pm
You know, I could have been far more succinct. This:

For whatever reason…

Is like reading Jonah Goldberg.
MAX HATS Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:48 pm
On the loony right, having your phone calls listened to and email read is no problem. Ditto (Rush) on having the right to a trial and the right to contest evidence slip away. But having a national ID card? Suddenly it’s black helicopters time.
MAX HATS Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
One of the simple dignities of living in an actually free country is not having jackboots capable of saying “Where are your papers?” Requiring idea is always used for harassment and intimidation. Always.

Always? Wow, that’s a lot!

So in all the many, many countries out there with a national ID system, the system is used as a means of harassment and intimidation? That’s amazing. Not one of my European friends has ever thought to mention all the harassment and intimidation that comes from those things. Huh.
raft Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:53 pm
freddie, does that make Belgium, Britain, Japan, and France not “actually free” countries?

come on.
Freddie Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:54 pm
So in all the many, many countries out there with a national ID system, the system is used as a means of harassment and intimidation? That’s amazing. Not one of my European friends has ever thought to mention all the harassment and intimidation that comes from those things. Huh.

Snark, when used by someone with the chops, can be funny and entertaining. You are not one of those people. Incidentally, “my friends never told me X” is about the absolute worst way to gather evidence about the world around you I can imagine. I mean, really. None of my friends has ever been beaten up by the cops, personally. So, hey, it must have never happened. I promise you, yes, in every single country that requires someone hold identification at all times, that law has at time been used for harassment and intimidation. If you don’t think that’s the case, you don’t know much about the police, or about power.
Freddie Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Ahem.

freddie, does that make Belgium, Britain, Japan, and France not “actually free” countries?

Go back and read my comment and tell me how it logically follows that only a country without national ID laws can be actually free.

This will all be much funnier when one of you goes out for a job and gets arrested for not having his papers. Where are your papers, guys? Are you authorized to be in this zone?
Buckeye Hamburger Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:00 pm
ARRRRGH!!

This is immensely frustrating, and unfortunately quite typical of discussions about a national ID card: Matt blandly declares that they will be “genuinely useful in a variety of contexts”, and yet he does not spell out what those genuine uses might be.

Matt Yglesias, I hereby challenge you: name, specifically, what the “genuine uses” might be, and explain how the advantages will overcome the risks that the system entails. What problem will the ID cards solve, and why couldn’t that problem be solved by another solution at a lower cost with lower risks for civil liberties? My prediction is that you will be entirely unable to come up with any such explanation.

This is one of those things that many people seem to assume is obvious, for some reason, and doesn’t require any explanation. So much so that people don’t even explain it to themselves. But the alleged “usefulness” of national IDs is a dangerous delusion that does not bear up under scrutiny. Bruce Schneier, the renowned computer security expert, has been emphasizing this point for years, and I invite you to read his 2004 article “A National ID Card Wouldn’t Make Us Safer”. His main points are:

* ID cards will certainly be forged by those intent on subverting the system, or legitimate cards will be obtained fraudulently with other identity documents that are more easily forged.

* People will inevitably lose their cards, creating the need for a secondary system of identity that will be subject to error and abuse.

* The use of cards (ID checking) is invariably prone to human error.

* The system would require an enormous database that would be hugely expensive to create and maintain, would be squarely in the crosshairs of hackers, constantly at risk of viruses and conventional computer failures, and most of all, it would probably be the most tempting object of abuse that has ever existed in history. Would you trust Bush & Cheney with such a system?

* The main purpose of the cards — identifying people — would be irrelevant for many of the security problems that they are allegedly meant to solve.

It may seem obvious to some people that national ID cards would solve the problems of voter registration, but I claim that it’s only because they haven’t thought through the specifics of how it would work. In fact, such a system wouldn’t make the situation any better, and could very likely make it even worse.
MAX HATS Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:07 pm
That’s for the enlightening comments, guys. Great to learn Belgium is a fascist hellhole. I’m learning all kinds of things over here.

Seriously, talk about know-nothings. Have you ever spent any amount of time in another country Freddie? You simply have no idea. Every post you make all I hear is “like wet bags of sand.”
MAX HATS Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:09 pm
* ID cards will certainly be forged by those intent on subverting the system, or legitimate cards will be obtained fraudulently with other identity documents that are more easily forged.

Of course forgery will occur. The question is, will there be less forgery than there currently is of Social Security cards, or more? Pull out your social security card, borrow a friends green card, and compare the two. One of those is not like the other.
MAX HATS Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Followup - you know what it takes to get registered as a voter in my state? A drivers license. Anyone seriously want to argue that a drivers license is more secure than one of our current forms of national ID, the green card?
Micah Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Lets look at the costs. estimated 218M adults over 18 and say a costs of $25 each ID card. $5.45 Billion just to get the initial cards out. Sounds expensive. Now if you can somehow combine the passport/drivers license into the national ID…
Cranky Observer Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Matt,
Three things:

1) Once the National ID exists, is every citizen required to carry it with him at all times?

2) What is the penalty for not carrying it? Does the presumption of innocence apply to those “caught” not carrying the National ID?

3) Dick Cheney. I mean, seriously, 8 years of Cheney and you _still_ don’t understand where the Radical Right wants to take this nation?

Cranky
josephdietrich Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Another argument by Bruce Schneier on this subject here. He does present a compelling case against the RealID, and specifically against spending the amount of money DHS wants to spend on something that would be marginally effective.
miguel Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:55 pm
We already have a Federal ID system, social security. We don’t need another.
spavis Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Opt-in vs opt-out: A national ID would be mandatory like the SS#. The SS# was never meant to be used as a national ID for good reason but companies and state governments try to use it that way anyways. State drivers licenses and all other forms of ID are opt in which preserves privacy. There is no central repository with all my information, but a nat’l ID would change that.

ditto robert. once it’s set up it will change the way the government views people. The country was formed on privacy respecting, innocent until proven guilty principle. Just because that’s been corrupted doesn’t meant we should accept and aid it.
JRBehrman Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 5:41 pm
robbehrman nails it: The question is HOW to do this.

A “National ID Card” that builds on the present system of (a) hard to maintain but (b) easy to steal or abuse databases is, actually, a costly and ultimately unreliable idea from an engineering, not to mention, civil liberties standpoint.

The practical alternative is epitomized by a set of industry and international standards built around the Seven Laws of Identity and implemented already, in software, by firms such as Microsoft (Cardspace) and Norton (Identity Safe).

This will be difficult for for anglophile lawyers to understand inasmuch as they tend to build incrementally on things going all the way back to English (canon) Common Law. The Seven Laws are, in fact, conventions, like admiralty law or internet protocol. They will prevail simply because the other approaches will eventually fail every person, company, or nation that sticks with them in this digital era.

Curiously, the best popular reference for legitimating the Seven Laws is the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. A tangible manifestation of the Seven Laws will be a military-grade cryptographic authentication device. This is something like the SIM card in a cell phone. It is actually what an Air Force Officer carries alongside the President of the United States: “The Football”. It is not a gun but it is “arms” in the sense of heraldry, specifically, “seals and ciphers”.

Thus, the very old and very new will triumph over obsolete modernism.
Rob Mac Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Cranky, as long as you’re asking questions, why not ask a few more?

4) What would be the penalty for not carrying the national ID card? Would all those not carrying the card be shot on sight, or would they be taken to camps?

5) Would those not shot on sight be required to bury the bodies of those that are? If not, how would they be able to escape such a necessary duty?

I mean, if you’re going to be paranoid, why be little league about it?

I can’t say I seen the necessity of a national ID card, but I also don’t get where the fear comes from. OMH! The government might know who I am and where I live! The same government that delivers mail to my house with my name on it every day!

And I don’t see why a national ID is more fraught with peril than the existing system of state drivers licenses. In fact, sometimes the cops do simply stop people on the street and check their “papers”. I’ve been stopped in two different random road blocks while driving myself.

The current system is arguably more exposed to hackers because the various state systems are likely under fewer security restrictions than a national system. I suppose a national system would present one target rather than 50+. Still over 50 million people live in California. That’s a pretty tempting target right there.

I assume that Matthew’s goal is to avoid voter registration problems. I don’t think it would take a national ID to accomplish that. A national voter registration system is possible without such a thing.

If you work, are on Social Security, or receive mail, the federal government already knows who you are and where you live. The only people who avoid this are the homeless and a few cabin dwellers in rural Montana. Surely a reliable national voter registration system would not be that difficult to accomplish.
John Robert BEHRMAN Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Here is an authoritative synopsis of the Seven Laws:

People using computers should be in control of giving out information about themselves, just as they are in the physical world.

The minimum information needed for the purpose at hand should be released, and only to those who need it. Details should be retained no longer than necessary.

It should NOT be possible to automatically link up everything we do in all aspects of how we use the Internet. A single identifier that stitches everything up would have many unintended consequences.

We need choice in terms of who provides our identity information in different contexts.

The system must be built so we can understand how it works, make rational decisions and protect ourselves.

Devices through which we employ identity should offer people the same kinds of identity controls - just as car makers offer similar controls so we can all drive safely.
kaybeel Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 6:26 pm
freddie, does that make Belgium, Britain, Japan, and France not “actually free” countries?

Japan is a free, country, but I’ve lived there. You can get stopped and asked for your id card. Especially if you are “foreign-looking” (in Japan, most foreign-looking people are in fact foreigners). My teenage son was stopped near our home and asked for his ID card.
Also, you are supposed to register with the local police (koban) office. When we didn’t do it right away, they came to our door to remind us.
JonF Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Re: One of the simple dignities of living in an actually free country is not having jackboots capable of saying “Where are your papers?”

Anytime you are pulled over by the police you will be asked for ID.

Re: Once the National ID exists, is every citizen required to carry it with him at all times?

Probably only for ID-necessary purposes: boarding an airplane, ermployment verification, voting. By the way, you are pretty much required to have an ID with you right now anytime you drive (and at other times, like opening a bank account, getting a job, boarding an airplane, using an unsigned credit card, etc.) How is this be any different from having a national ID instead of an drivers license?

Re: There is no central repository with all my information

Um, the IRS? They know where you live, where you work, etc. You can opt out by not having any income– but that’s really not viable for anyone outside a tiny number of cloistered monks and nuns, and a few backwoods hermits.

Re: I’m against it. All of a sudden, you’ve got this tag following you through life, with all kinds of info attached to it; you’re shopping habits, banking info, credit problems, job history, legal history.

???
How would any of this be attached to a national ID? It does attach to your drivers license or state ID now, so why would it automatically attach to a national ID?
Frank Wilhoit Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 6:55 pm
The trouble with a national ID card is that it could not be used to play favorites. That is why the other unconstitutional measures have been accepted: they can all be applied selectively.
Richard Steven Hack Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Bruce Schneier: Unassailable arguments against a National ID.

Matt: No arguments at all, except his fantasist belief in the “muscular power of Christian government to do good”.

Bruce wins.

Duh.

And the rest of the morons here who are saying, “Gee, we already have this with a driver’s license, why not go whole hog and let them strip and photograph us naked and take our DNA and retinal prints and while they’re at it, why not let them implant chips in our heads?”

The same arguments apply for every other invasion of privacy and institution of state control you want to discuss. You either reject the whole thing or you BOHICA. It’s that simple. The suckers here have already allowed it to go too far, because basically they have no identity except what is assigned to them by the state and society, so they think it’s cool.

Stupid beta chimps who’d suck any alpha’s cock to be accepted.
superdestroyer Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Buckeye Hamburger,

I guess so much Elizabeth’s Edwards idea of a national electronic medical record that will allow the government to do health promotion, epidemiology, and coordinate hospitals, physicians, pharmacists, optometrist, dentist, and allied healthcare workers.

If the progressives really want nationalized healthcare, they are going to have to agree to a national I.D. and a national database with all of your health records in it.
MAX HATS Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Great points as always by the ever-sane detractors. What if the government learns where we live? What if the government can demand proof of identity before I try and get a job? Boy, it’s terrifying to even imagine such a world.
Kevin Carson Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Problem is, a national ID would lower the transaction costs for a lot of the curtailments you object to. Imagine how much easier a roundup of socialists would have been for A. Mitchell Palmer, of Jews for Himmler, or of Japanese-Americans for FDR, if there’d been a national ID with biometric data, and it had become standard practice to require it for writing checks and such. Imagine if the biometric information were part of a national database, and linked to public surveillance cameras with face-recognition software. Shit, all you have to do is imagine how easy a roundup of dissidents for preventive detention would be in the UK right now, if they abandoned their remaining shreds of constitutionality.
chat Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Thanks
Don Williams Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 10:32 pm
People here arguing in favor of a national id card are dumbshits. Sorry to be blunt but it’s that damm simple.

You are giving the government the power to construct a system whereby you can NOT exist without it’s permission.

A simple flip of the switch and you can no long travel –by any means — you can not withdraw money from your bank account, you can not use a credit card , you can not rent a motel, you can not even buy groceries.

You are suddenly a hostile alien. Who can be railroaded into a gulag with no recourse.

The people will rebel? How can they if no one knows about it? If the closely held News Media lies — or covers up the truth — then who will know? Do all of you think Sept 11 happened because “they hate our freedom”??

Besides, anyone depending upon you people to protect their freedom is leaning on a VERY weak reed. Cheney scrapped several long standing civil rights and what did you do? Nothing.

What in the hell is the matter with you people?

The thing that’s slowly turning the USA into a dictatorship is the cowardice, the cock-sucking docility , and the stupidity of its citizens.
Don Williams Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Re MAX HATS comment “What if the government learns where we live? What if the government can demand proof of identity before I try and get a job? ”
———-
1) Why should the government know where you live if you don’t want them to do so? They’re supposed to deliver mail to a fucking post box — who that box belongs to should be none of their fucking business. And even if the post office knows, it shouldn’t be allowed to automatically share the info with other government offices.

2) In my opinion, the government has no right to demand that employers require id for employees. Anyone ever hear of the Ninth and Tenth Amendments? Where in the Constitution does it say that control of employment is a right granted to the federal government?

Yeah, I know. The Supreme Court gets to rewrite the Constitution –including turning the Ninth and Tenth Amendments into a dead letter with two-faced sophistry.

Well, fuck the Supreme Court. They’re wrong. But when you put the civil liberties of 300 million people into the hands of a bunch of old corrupt dumbshits looking to protect their cushy sinecures, what can you expect?

Especially when a high percentage of the population is caged in federal concentration camps — and the part that’s “free” is only free because it slavishly does what it is told.

You are making the chains that will enslave you — and you don’t have the intelligence to realize it.
Trizzle Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:29 pm
A better idea: issue everyone a passport, free of charge. The hurdles and costs associated with acquisition of a passport in this country are ridiculous. While some of the current corruption and security questions with our electronic passports might be exacerbated a bit in the short run, those problems would also apply to a national ID, and a passport would have the added benefit of allowing people to travel out of the country rather than putting another opportunity cost in the way of gaining some perspective other than “real america.”
Amanda in the South Bay Says:
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:46 pm
On behalf of transsexuals everywhere, I say NO, FUCK NO. In California, where I live, I’ve been able to get the gender marker changed without surgery-which is the law in California. some states require surgery to just get the gender marker changed, which is a massive hassle for many transpeople. I somehow doubt a national ID card would be trans friendly.
MAX HATS Says:
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:33 am
In my opinion, the government has no right to demand that employers require id for employees.

Okay. But it already does. Has for awhile.

Every thing the anti-national ID crowd points to with flailing arms and ALL CAPS as a dastardly consequence of the national ID already exists. Every single example. If you file taxes, if you have a job, if you have a drivers license or state issued ID, if you have a telephone or are hooked up to the electrical grid - then you are findable already. Your name is already in countless databases that multiple levels of government have or can get access to.

The government already has a verification you exist, a documentation that without it you do not exist - your social security card.

There is already just one card you need to get voters rights. A drivers license. Ask any teenager how hard that is to fake.

But hey, it’s great to hear paranoia coming back into vogue on the right wing. Would have been useful when the government decided it didn’t need a warrant or probable cause to listen to our phone calls, but hey - better late than never. But would it be too much to ask that you focus it on actual and persistent threats to liberty, rather than things stolen from the plots of 3rd rate sci-fi?
tammanycall Says:
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:00 am
Though I haven’t read a compelling “pro” reason, I guess I’m MORE paranoid than those writing most of the “cons”. I already think the government knows everything about me, and I’m certain they could “take me off the grid”if they so desired. That doesn’t mean I should make it easier for them to do it, of course.

What would be the purpose of the National ID? I admit I think it’s sort of silly that we have state-issued driver’s licenses, and that, as a previous commenter mentioned, passports are so difficult and so costly to obtain. The convenience of one “travel/public life” card (which automatically ties to voter registration) is tempting.
The Last Enemy Says:
November 3rd, 2008 at 2:59 am
Your credit card company knows all of the following:
your employment history
where you live/lived
who you lived with
what you purchase

and yet everyone is worried about a photo ID

when the govt wants to track you they do it by your credit/debit card purchases make sure you have a reserve of cash if you need to go underground
JonF Says:
November 3rd, 2008 at 6:25 am
Re:Ask any teenager how hard that is to fake.

Nowadays, they are quite difficult to fake. The usual trick for underage boozers is to use an older sibling’s license.
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Matt Yglesias

National ID

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