Kristol’s Next War
In addition to being a booster of the two actual wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, Bill Kristol and/or his publication has, at one time or another, also called for the United States to go to war with North Korea, Syria, Iran, and Sudan. And now he’s got another war he’s like to start:
And while [Bush is] at it, perhaps he could tell various admirals to stop moaning about how difficult it would be to deal with the pirates off the coast of Somalia (isn’t keeping the shipping lanes open a core mission of the Navy?) and order the Navy to clobber them. If need be, the Marines would no doubt be glad to recapitulate their origins and join in by going ashore in Africa to destroy the pirates’ safe havens.
I’m not one to say that we should blindly defer to the preferences of the military brass, but surely they’re due some deference. Is the Navy really “moaning” about how difficult it would be to stop the pirates, or are they perhaps accurately describing difficulties? Where does Kristol get off adopting a condescending tone on this subject? The Marines “would no doubt be glad” to spearhead an amphibious assault on land-based Somali targets? Has he asked anyone about that? I think a lot of Marines feel that the Corps has a lot on its plate in Iraq and Afghanistan. And certainly I’ve never heard someone with legitimate knowledge of the regional situation indicate that a simple “destroy the pirates’ safe havens” operation would work. You’d need to address the fact that the whole country is in a persistent state of anarchy.
One might further note that the whole situation is a big unintended consequence of the Christmas 2006 Ethiopian invasion of Somalia. Something that was done with full US support and loudly cheered by The Weekly Standard. But thought he consequence was unintended, it was widely predicted by people who knew what they were talking about. I harp on this because it’s a subject I was prescient on, but I wasn’t prescient due to any incredible leaps of genius — I just listened to the International Crisis Group rather than, you know, The Weekly Standard. But now Kristol wants to go off on yet another half-baked invasion scheme. Or, rather, he wants to posture as favoring such. Because the best wars to monger for are the ones that don’t actually happen.
173 Responses to “Kristol’s Next War”
Register
RSSLogin
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog RollAbout Matt YglesiasContact Me
Donate
November 30th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Dealing with Somali pirates is trivially easy.
Finding them wouldn’t be particularly hard, if we had recon satellites – but we do. This takes a few destroyers, max. It is probably not even necessary to shell their ports: as long as the pirates never come back, people get the idea. Televised hangings might help.
Navy marketeers are toying with the idea of using this as a argument for a big boost in Navy funding. A lie, of course, but it may work, since the audience is as utterly clueless on this as Yglesias is.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Perhaps Kristol is under the darkly amusing conviction that (a) the population of Somali pirates, small weapons, and small boats are limited; and (b) establishing a permanent and complete control of access to the waters off the Horn is an easy task.
Of course, I’d hesitate to remind everyone that the original decision to invade Somalia and finish destabilizing the Somali government under Bush Sr, to the complete opposition of the humanitarian aid agencies actually working on the ground, remains to this day an utterly, utterly stupid matter, satisfying only to warmongering, talentless nepotists like William (Little Irving) Kristol Jr.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Oh, good, another milnerd presuming to lecture us all on which foreign interventions are trivially easy.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Oh, my. I suppose there’s no point in suggesting to Kristol that he go out and rent a DVD of Black Hawk Down… Reality is just so disappointing.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
It _is_ trivially easy. All you have to do is patrol with a few frigates, stop every boat that looks suspicious, and arrest the crew of every one with significant weaponry. Fishing boats really don’t need to have RPGs on board.
By the way, I’m the kind of milnerd who said that before the war A, invading Iraq would be easy, in that we would lose on the order of 100 KIA in the invasion phase, B. Iraq had no atomic weapons program and C. we’d likely end up fighting a low-level guerrilla war and losing on the order of 1000 KIA a year. The kind that knows what he’s talking about.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
The kind that knows what he’s talking about.
Your credentials are beyond reproach.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Those who council war as the optimal policy in all cases are to be found whispering in the ears of every powerful official.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Funny, I’m the kind of non milnerd who was also able to predict those exact things about Iraq, mainly because I wasn’t 6 years old and didn’t believe state-sponsored propaganda.
It’d be cool to have that sort of degree of control along our coasts, given that enormous amounts of drugs still cross the Caribbean from South America’s Atlantic Coast and up the Pacific Coast into la Costa Chica of Mexico.
But I’m sure it’d be much easier off the Horn, given that by contrast it’s American waters.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
One might further note that the whole situation is a big unintended consequence of the Christmas 2006 Ethiopian invasion of Somalia.
For the last time, no it’s not. First, this stuff has been going on long before the incursion. Second, the Islamic courts never had control of the primary areas (e.g. puntland) from where pirates are operating. Last, if it’s really all the Ethiopians’ fault, why did it take almost two years from a transition from cause to effect? It only took a year from the U.S. invasion of Iraq to serious insurgent activity.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I’m going to have to dissent on this one, too. What makes the piracy possible, one the scale at which it’s occurring, is all the support facilities at port. Removing those would end the piracy at this scale. The Somalis would continue at a smaller scale, of course. But right now it’s seriously disrupting shipping through that gulf.
And it wouldn’t be a war, because Somalia doesn’t have a government.
None of this is to disagree with the point that Kristol is an irresponsible war-monger. But he’s generally right in this case. It’s pretty silly to compare this sort of action with Iraq. It’s a lot more like Granada.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
One of the side benefits of the 2008 election is that sensible people no longer have to worry about what Bill Kristol says. Exposing his foolishness also could reduce his power to twist internal Republican politics into a knot.
Let Kristol rant unimpeded to his fellow dwellers in the wilderness.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
First, this stuff has been going on long before the incursion…Last, if it’s really all the Ethiopians’ fault, why did it take almost two years from a transition from cause to effect?
um, what?
November 30th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Look, thinking that every kind of military operation is impossible is just as silly as thinking that war is its own justification. Piracy isn’t terrorism or a war of liberation – it’s economic. Make the losses to the pirates high, make it unprofitable and dangerous, and there will be very little piracy.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Why wouldn’t catching and hanging pirates deter ‘em?
Kristol is an idjit, of course, but MY seems to think that to kill pirates we’d also have to solve Somalia’s many problems. That doesn’t seem to follow.
Killing guys who steal oil tankers can’t be THAT hard, especially while they are still at sea. What are they gonna do, run away?
November 30th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Why does anyone bother with Kristol anyway? He’s a fanatical AIPAC, PNAC, Neocon, and (above all) Israel-uber-alles sock puppet. There’s plenty more in this country where he came from. They should all be ignored, or better yet, be required to register as agents of a foreign government.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
The Navy and Lockmart would like to con people into thinking that this takes a lot more ships: it’s not true. We have a big navy and it isn’t busy countering the Soviet fleet anymore, Other than carriers whacking some third world country, it has hardly any mission at all.
Piracy must be crushed, but it would be best if we could do so without leveling any coastal towns in the process. Children live in those towns.
Sponsoring the Ethiopian invasion of Somalia was of course stupid – not just because it further messed up Somalia, but also because the it threatened an already-shaky Ethiopian state. The people responsible should be punished in some way: somehow being turned out of office doesn’t seem like enough.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Why wouldn’t catching and hanging pirates deter ‘em?
Well, “catch them and hang them” has been pretty much the plan for a couple of thousand years now, ever since “catch them and crucify them” went out of fashion. And, you see, we still have pirates . . .
November 30th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
See, it’s here that I’d recommend people move from the ‘well yeah it’s fairly easy you just gotta do 1-2-3′ to thinking about the above quoted statement for a while. Just, kind of, you know, go over that right there. Several times. Maybe I’m mistaken to notice these things. But, you know, maybe not.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
So much for listening to the commanders on the ground.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Aren’t the Islamists already taking action against the pirates? Last I heard they had the main pirate town surrounded and were demanding the release of the big Saudi tanker.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
I think Kristol is realizing that his predictions are consistently turning out to be incorrect. I suspect you are right about his motivation to monger this war. He knows it will give him press and attention, but he also knows it won’t ever happen so he can keep his hawk credentials while feeling safe that for once he won’t be proven wrong.
The US would be a much better place without him, but I’ll settle for him wasting his time discussing military actions that will never happen. Its better that than the ones that might actually come to be.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
How many of those “sagely” opining here knows a damn thing about the Somali pirates? This is not, today, what it started as: disgruntled Somali fishermen acting independently. It’s now an industry with a support structure. While it’s small boats with a relatively few men who board and capture the ships, they are launched from a larger ship with dozens of support personnel. They then return the captured ship to port where there is a thriving support industry for the piracy and ransoming of hostages.
Yes, fighting individual Somali fisherman who pirate is “asymmetric” and would be problematic. Disrupting or destroying the large support infrastructure that makes the piracy possible at this scale is a routine military operation that is well within the capability of a few US naval ships. And if there’s anything minimal at all that justifies a navy’s existence, it’s to combat piracy.
Some of the comments here exemplify the reflexive, thoughtless pacifism that made it possible for the right to marginalize the anti-war left during the lead-up to the Iraq invasion. You and the neocons are made for each other, complementing each other into a perfect whole of idiocy.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Or kill all the hostages and potentially dump the cargo. That might be a bit of a problem.
Preventing the piracy is relatively easy though. Convoys. This is one situation where the UN would really come in handy to help organize an international convoy escort program. It’d be pricy, but cheaper than ransom demands or going around the southern tip of Africa.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Your thoughts. Vacuous. Empty. Nothingness. Your ideas have no solution at the end. No hope. You simply criticize. Why don’t you take your laptop to to India and figure out how to help them since you have no creative solutions for your own sovereign. Again. Your thoughts. Vacuous. Empty. Nothing but Nothingness.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
What no one account for also is that most of the ships being attacked are ‘flag of convenience’ ships. Where’s the Bahamanian, Liberian or Panamanian navy to protect them?
Of course, the USN (and the Multi-National Force that’s currently patrolling the area) will continue to fight piracy as open shipping lanes have been the cornerstone of US national interests since the 18th century. But US flagged (or coalition flagged) ships would definitely have more resources devoted to their protection.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Somali pirates? No.
For the same reason these folks aren’t interested in Afghanistan much—no resources—they aren’t interested in Somalia. The next war they will push for will probably in Venezuela or Nigeria.
The fact that the Neo Cons aren’t pushing for some kind of pro-India Pakistan propaganda/war/etc. shows you that they’re just hewing to the 100 year old imperial ways we’ve followed, which aren’t hard to predict if you look at the patterns.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
For those who think we are (or will be) ‘going it alone’, CTF-150 was stood up six years ago for just this mission.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Link didn’t work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Task_Force_150
November 30th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Piracy is of course a recurrent problem: you can’t eliminate it forever, and more than you can eliminate burglary. But you can certainly make it rare any time you care to.
If you look at history, it’s fairly obvious that piracy is easily dealt with, once the states concerned decide to do so. Now when they don’t – for example, when the British and French licensed piracy against Spain – then it can turn into a real problem.
In the past, in the days of sailing ships, effective anti-pirate squadrons were small. Today, the problem is easier still, since the technical means available to governments are far more potent.
Things to avoid: do NOT take and occupy coastal Somali towns. That’s how the French started in Algeria, and look how that turned out.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
@14. sycthia:
MattY has repeatedly asserted that ‘the whole situation [piracy around the Horn of Africa] is a big unintended consequence’ of the Ethiopian invasion.
What I was trying to say is:
1) this activity precedes the invasion by years (really, decades or even centuries)
2) Even if one assesses the current activity as something ‘new’, if it is the result of the Ethiopian invasion’s creation of a lawless region, it seems to have taken a while for the effects to manifest themselves – in contrast, the results of the creation of a lawless state in Iraq manifested itself in a just a few months.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
The biggest pirates are looting the world. Why no talk about commandos defending us from bankers?
November 30th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
The point from DTM needs to be repeated.
It’s not that people like me are “reflexively” saying that no policies whatsoever can possibly be concocted to, say, drastically reduce the threat of small boat piracy in a particular region of the world.
It’s the gigantically dangerous threat represented by a cadre of immensely powerful hacks, idiot pundits, and militarists who urge such dangerous interventions launched without thought, on the presumption that someone, somewhere, has gotten all the details worked out, that the policies will be carried out not by the actual institutions and leaders in our nation but some fantasy band of superprofessional military leaders, and that any possible long-term consequences of this foolhardiness is either (a) for cowards and pacifists to moan about until the real men launch their interventions and/or (b) for as yet unnamed lesser beings to work out later.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Some of the comments here exemplify the reflexive, thoughtless pacifism that made it possible for the right to marginalize the anti-war left during the lead-up to the Iraq invasion
Can we just retire this now, once and for all? I am so sick of this “being against Iraq war means being a pacifict” meme. You know what I think has more effect on the lead up to the Iraq war? Pro-war left who can’t wait to separate themselves from the supposedly anti-America, terrorist-loving, cowardly anti-war left, that they proceed to embrace Bush and provide cover for him.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
If I had to choose among the U.S.’ interventions into the 3rd world between reflexive and thoughtless pacifists and reflexive and thoughtless militarists, I choose the former. Their (imaginary) record is better, though I didn’t say spotless.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
a booster of the two actual wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, Bill Kristol and/or his publication
How is this any different than Mr. Yglesias, the Atlantic, the entire staff at the NYT, Washington Post, TNR, Drum, Ezra Klein, Josh Marshall, the networks – basically our whole media, top to bottom?
Are you somehow more virtuous if you supported the invasion of Iraq, during the removal of the government, then changed your mind when it started bogging down or when you saw which way the winds were blowing? Did all the formerly war-supporting liberal hawks want the US to withdraw in 2004-2005, when Iraq had no government, or did they want the US to not to have invaded in the first place?
Who did more harm in terms of persuasion and selling this war? The always belligerent conservatives? The always-advocating-for-war-with-Arabs Weekly Standard neo-cons? Or the reasonable, “serious-minded” liberals – the Tom Friedman wanna-be’s?
November 30th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
This piracy nonsense is the direct result of Government’s depriving the ship owners of the right to protect their property. If I was building a $200m ship I would certainly be prepared to slap a few hundred k’s worth of guns on board.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
WASHINGTON (CNN) — An extensive federal report released Monday concludes that roughly one in four of the 697,000 U.S. veterans of the 1990-91 Gulf War suffer from Gulf War illness. A U.S. soldier wears
November 30th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
flubber,
It’s unfair of you to blame the reasonable “serious-minded” liberals – the Tom Friedman wanna-be’s. I’m sure some of them just want to avoid being called “reflexive pacifist” so as not to be marginalized.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
At this point, Kristol is just a joke out of “The Onion”. Kristol calls for the U.S. to obliterate Eurasia and hand over Fort Knox to Temple Beth Shalom!
November 30th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Seriously, haven’t Liberia, Panama et. al. heard of the second amendment?
November 30th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
It seems to me like this would be a good thing for us to take up with the Security Council. There’s really no reason why the US should have to deal with this problem alone, and it’s a good issue to start the international community back down a cooperative path on dealing with international crises.
I suppose even Matthew would allow that *something* ought to be done about a group of pirates who steal and ransom peaceable ships. And after a few rounds of back and forth, I imagine he’d even allow that we needn’t turn Somalia into a scandinavian social democracy to effectively address the piracy.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
The Piracy is a result of instability in the region. People need jobs and safety, so they don’t turn to piracy.
To ensure these two needs are met I would suggest another Operation Restore Hope. In terms of restoring order It was regarded as a success.
According to wiki: (There was a) positive impact on the security situation in Somalia and on the effective delivery of humanitarian assistance.
The much discussed Black Hawk down incident occurred after the majority of U.S. troops had left.
Disclaimer: I still think Kristol is an idiot
November 30th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – A report released Monday concluded that
November 30th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
The problem, as I understand it, is that a lot of countries get nervous about letting armed vessels into their harbors.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
I am hoping we have discontinued being the 9-11 for problems in the world. Let’s see if any other country cares enough to get involved and work on our own huge problems.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
very easy to say that Bill Kristol is wrong. now can you please suggest what we SHOULD do?
November 30th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Why we never look under the rug to see what causes some of these tragedies defies common sense. These “pirates” are fisherman by trade and have been forced out. They have families to feed and no one cares that they have no legitimate way to make a living. How ’bout solving the employment problem, then you will find you don’t have a “piracy” problem.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Kristol is a complete idiot – but just because you were right about some political BS from yesteryear doesn’t mean we shouldn’t address the problems of today. Even though a tactic may not fix the underlying geopolitical instability, it still might successfully address a specific negative effect of that instability.
Handling high-seas piracy does not require a complete stabilization of the country of Somalia. It requires forcing the clans involved in commercial piracy to deal with a changed cost-benefit reality. These pirates are fighting for money, not nationalism. If an activity becomes less beneficial it clearly becomes less attractive.
Currently there is no repercussion for piracy other than getting a large ransom. There is little risk in participating and a huge reward. Increasing the risk (like a high casualty rate among pirates) would certainly make it less attractive – and should require clans to work harder and spend more to find foot soldiers to fill their ranks.
Likewise, targeting assets (boats specifically) of those known to engage in piracy would have benefits of reducing the available hardware in the theater and incurring significant expense for replacement. Even in Somalia, boats aren’t free. If losses are incurred consistently where profits were previously expected, it would likely make the entire operation less lucrative. In other crime organizations, a shrinking pie often leads to infighting that reduces coordination.
Not all actions necessarily need to involve offensive assault. A simple blockade preventing access to hijacked vessels by land forces would be a huge help. We have military experts to run down options and implement the best ones. What is increasingly not an option is sitting on our hands and doing nothing – these ransoms are funding our enemies.
The Somali government has authorized the use of force in it’s territories to combat the problem so there aren’t any serious diplomatic issues. The problem is tactics: we aren’t employing ANY. The Somalis are leaving our ships alone hoping we’ll let them fleece the rest of the world and hand the profits to Al Qaeda. I propose that’s a bad plan.
So let’s not let Kristol plan the operation … but let’s do SOMETHING about piracy!
November 30th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Dealing with these pirates is essential in preventative measures against terrorism. This is exactly how the Mumbai terrorists gained their access to Indian shores. This is a global problem and requires a multi-lateral approach. The U.S. cannot be expected to to tackle the situation unilaterally. Other nations need to step up and put their money where their mouth is and pitch in. Specifically – Britain, France, Germany, China, India, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, Pakistan all need to step it up. These nations are all quite capable of helping out militarily and/or monetarily.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Yeah, most countries don’t want to let foreign commercial ships with crew they are not able to fully investigate into their ports with heavy armaments including rockets and large caliber automatic weapons. Even if this were not the case it’s often a simple matter of economics. The Saudi tanker was carrying more cargo (crude) than the ship cost to build and I don’t think the owners want their crew to engage well armed pirates with the potential of initiating a fire or major spill or dealing with dead crew members that could end up costing them far more down the line than paying a rare ransom.
While this has been in the major news recently and has increased in frequency of late people are right here to note that this is not a recent phenomenon but has in fact been going on for years. Even with the recent increase the percentage of ships that are hijacked coming through the Gulf of Aden is very low. It is a problem without a doubt but purely from an economic standpoint it may be hard to justify the significant risk of loss of life or sustained large scale military operation that would cost hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. The area the pirates are operating in is HUGE and nobody has mentioned that. Stopped and boarding every ship coming in and out of Somalia would require an even bigger naval operation than is currently deployed.
Whether you call it liberal or neo-con the truth is that the regions that the pirates seem to be operating from, Puntland for one, are essentially de facto “independent” and they do not have the same influence from the Islamic fundamentalist insurgents as the southern regions of Somalia. This a purely capitalistic and economic venture for the pirates and should be treated as such.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Hmmm, why would he say…
Wait, what religion are Somalians?
(checks wikipedia)
Oh. Just another chapter in Kristol’s Krusade.
Nothing to see here.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
I think we should send in the neocons instead. Let them be bogged down in another useless war. Perhaps, if they had to experience their words, they would be less rigid and more practicable in their dogmatic ideas.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Can’t we just use drones? Target the boat, sink it, let them drown. No need tying up the marines in dealing with a rabble of scumbags.
If Kristol suggests it, you can discount it. He’s reliably wrong on everything he speaks about. Bloody neocons.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Saudi and the UAE spend billions on weapons..why don’t THEY get a few speed boats and send THEIR guys to stop the Somalis..after all it is close to their coastline..why send Americans when the ships being kidnapped are from Panama , the UAE, and Saudi..
November 30th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
What currency do they use when paying the ransoms?
November 30th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
“One might further note that the whole situation is a big unintended consequence of the Christmas 2006 Ethiopian invasion of Somalia.” What a cockamamey assertion.
Additionally, we wouldn’t have to go ashore. Blowing them out of the water a few times probably works fine as a deterrent.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
You guys really dont know history do ya? Someone youtube the marines hymn “to the shores of Tripoli” this is what we do as Marines!
Ooorah!
fmr 6046
November 30th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Most of the these comments seem to be ‘preaching to the choir’; somehow I don’t think Kristol reads Yglesias (or other progressive blogs); or cares. His comments are designed to keep subscriptions from the ‘tight right’ flowing to the Weekly Standard. Thoughtful Conservatives, nor thoughful Progressives, I don’t believe, follow Kristol’s pronouncements Although, it seems that there’s a point here that bears some further thought. The World is badly in need of comprehensive, coordinated and Intelligent leadership (leadership that transcends self-serving behavior). Oh, and the operative word is ‘Intelligent’. The World is getting increasingly dangerous and fragmented. The question is how to deal with the bad actors and failed states without dragging an entire region into a huge shooting war.
One of the above solutions called for ‘hanging’ a few pirates. Sounds like a pretty-good deterrent; however how does the country that does the hanging avoid a cycle of revenge and reprisals? I wish it were so simple that frontier justice would stop all the terror in the world. I think all the manifestations of injustice have their roots in, and are symptomatic of, deeper issues that need resolving; starting with injustice and fairness among countries and populations. Anyone hear of Darfur? ‘Nuf said.
November 30th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Where is The Phantom when we really need him?
November 30th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Kristol is without peer: he is always ready to help jawbone or stir up a war to be fought with someone else’s children. It goes without saying there are never concerns with collateral damage.
His conduct goes back to the Vietnam era, where he happily avoided service, although he could have volunteered for this war that he so avidly supported. We remember in New Haven.
November 30th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
And now he’s got another war he’s like to start:
s/he’s/he’d/;
November 30th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Kristol is one of those pain in the as2 chickenhawk motor-mouths who give real conservatives a bad name. Perhaps he would voluteer to go over there and send back a report. With luck maybe his keepers who trot him out as comic relief will have a delay in finding ransom money if he gets snatched on the trip.
November 30th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
William Kristol always reminds me of Billy Crystal in “Mr. Saturday Night.” Not only is there a physical resemblance, but the whole style is similar.
November 30th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Kristol continues to blow my mind. As the saying goes, even a broken clock is wrong twice a day. Kristol spews idiocy every time he opens his mouth. He is a true moron.
November 30th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Genicide…uhh dont bring troops in. Pirates taking someone elses oil bring the troops in? I hate to say it folks but I’ve got to pull out the old race card. Haitian have to go back to war torn Haiti if they sail to our shores while Cubans can stay. Millions of africans are getting slaughtered, dying of various deceases but people get crazy because they are stealing oil. You can die but just dont touch the oil. Does any of this sound crazy to you? A better question is why doesnt this sound crazy to you?
November 30th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
I disagree with Kristol, it is never wise to commit troops into combat during a Democratic administration (the direct action missions of the previous Somali action were 1993). Half of this country has no fortitude for any action resulting in casualites…the newly elected administration, which represents this half, will not tolerate the cries of its supporters. (its ironic that the particular servicemen on the tip of the spear do not belong to this half but their destiny is controlled by them). Do not commit the troops when you know you will pull them out following the first signs of resistance. It will only inspire more terrorists as it did in 1993 (Bin Laden “the US is a Paper Tiger”)
November 30th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Since Somalia is the ultimate example of Grover Norquist’s low-taxes small-government free-market society, perhaps we could convince the Republican conservative to all move over there? It would be heaven for John Galt.
Unfortunately, Galt would almost certainly learn that the only economic activity he could find to practice would be Piracy, since Indonesian, Japanese and Indian fishing boats have spend the last decade and more overfishing the seas off Somalia so that there are few fish left for Somalis. That’s what happens when you have an anarchy that cannot patrol the waters off it’s own coast and regulate fishing.
It seems unlikely that Kristol could be convinced to join Galt in such a venture.
November 30th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Why doesn’t Kristol get off his high chair, and actually go fight in one of these wars he supports?
November 30th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
I’m shocked!
November 30th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Guys, seriously, nothing makes the cry for fighting more real than when it’s you who have to fight. Billy K’s credibility is shot…kaput, he’s irrelevant, he will be reduced to parroting the center right meme for the next 8 years with every successive step we take out of Bush’s ditch.
Imagine if you will sitting courtside at the Lakers/Cavs game and yelling “that’s good” EVERY SINGLE TIME a player from either team takes a shot, now imagine Billy K.
Pulling out your gun (or in his case telling your buddy to pull out his gun while you hide behind him) everytime there is tension makes him trigger happy not intellectual or informed.
k1
November 30th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Perhaps Bill is just harking back to his military days. He was in the military, right?
November 30th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Piracy off the coast of Africa and in South East Asia is nothing new. As far as committing troops, there is one branch of the military that actually has the jurisdiction to enforce the laws, treaties and bilateral agreements that make piracy illegal; the US Coast Guard. Title 14 USC 89(a) gives the USCG this authority in places where the US has jurisdiction. If the UN and countries off the coast of Africa in this case could agree on an anti-piracy agreement that would give the UN jurisdiction to stop piracy. An offensive military operation could be avoided and kept as a law enforcement matter.
USCG teams often use USN ships to get into these places because the USCG fleet is so old and so few. Also the teams that do these missions are limited. In order to prevent this from being a “military” operation and keeping it a law enforcement role, which is what it should be, it would require more forces over there. Currently the USCG has about 40,000 active duty members…roughly the same size as the NYPD.
Letting merchant ships arm themselves is also pure idiocy. I highly doubt that any country would let armed merchant vessels into their ports. Would you let an armed vessel into a US port? That would be like saying in order to prevent car jacking’s let people drive tanks.
There are solutions to this that do not require an aggressive military presence. This issue needs to be treated as a law enforcement matter supported by the UN and Merchant Maritime community. Unfortunately all this makes sense, making it completely unrealistic. As with most international issues this requires world leaders to have a like minded cause, in this case it should be maritime safety and security.
November 30th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
As one who sailed those waters 35 years ago as a tin-can sailor and whose father and grandfather also sailed there in their times, I have the perfect solution for ChickenHawk Billy.
Under the terms of the Privateer Act of 1802, which is still in force, The President may issue Letters of Marque to private shipowners to raid and harass enemy or pirate shipping on the High Seas.
So Billy could legally get his buddy George to issue such a letter to him, fit out his own armed warship, sign a crew of cutthroats in some waterfront dive and weigh anchor to engage the scurvy Pirates of the Somali Main. That way he could live out his peculiar fantasy. Who knows, maybe he could defray his costs by renting his ship out as a private armed escort.
November 30th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Lets send Kristol and his magazine staff out there on a ship with some guns on it. He can show the world how to clean up a few pesky pirates. Guys like him are glad to send others to do the dirty work. If he shows us all how its supposed to be done, we may be able to recruit others to replace him after he spends a few months showing pirates what’s what.
November 30th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Early onset dementia is so sad. And those who suffer it are always the last to realize they need help. I only hope the NYTimes does not renew his op-ed contract. Views of the opposition are necessary in any format—Fox News take note—but not from the mentally challenged!
November 30th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Oh yeah, it worked out so well last time we sent troops into Somalia…(sarcasm intended).
If you have never read Dr. James Orbinski’s writings on this subject, you should. An Imperfect Offering: Humanitarian Action in the 21st Century will chill you to the core.
November 30th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Well, “catch them and hang them” has been pretty much the plan for a couple of thousand years now, ever since “catch them and crucify them” went out of fashion. And, you see, we still have pirates
Only since we stopped catching and hanging them.
November 30th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Someone needs to get all up in Kristol’s face and yell at him in a stern and angry tone to SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKER. It’s with these kind of warmongering, evil motherfuckers that rudeness is most warranted. What a loathsome person.
November 30th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
No doubt Bill likes this idea because our LAST incursion into Somalia was such a success. If so, he should definitely volunteer for military duty and, if rejected, for Peace Corps duty in Somalia.
November 30th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Oh, Bill, are you ever right? Let’s not forget that chicken-hawks thought that the Iraq War was going to be a breeze, too. How many years have we been fighting that war now? How much has it cost us (in lives and dollars)? And now war-happy Billie wants us to start yet another military campaign?
I’ll gladly support another military campaign if Bill Kristol is the first man to go in!
November 30th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Simple? As simple as patrolling from San Diego to Seattle out as far as Hawaii….looking for relatively small fast wood boats that don’t show up well on radar.
Ashore, there is nowhere to invade and lots of places to hide. No pirate dens ashore. Just a bunch of barren up and down land with scattered villages where one poor villager looks pretty much like another. Mogadishu, is about 150 miles south the edge of piracy activity and the US had a bit of trouble holding it the last time. Check it out on Earth.Google. Sort of like trying to swat flies with a volley ball net.
If it were easy to catch a few small fast boats…. cocaine would be a lot more expensive.
November 30th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Maybe Mr. Kristol should consult some actual Marines that have done an amphibious landing on hostile shores. I would suspect that repeating that scenario would not be a top priority.
Oh by the way, we don’t really have an over the horizon amphibious landing plan any more.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
observe above: the tolerant left
November 30th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
No problem for a landing party. But they better bring a pack of cards and a good long book because there will be no resistance and nothing to do. No people, no harbors, no towns, no water, no game, no rocks and no cliffs. Just about 800 miles of beautiful sandy beaches. Small villages inland and about 80 – 100 miles apart. No game. No people. Nothing. Oh, and don’t forget to bring sunscreen.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Thank you all for your support.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
We keep reading about how these pirates are using their ill-gotten gains to build multi-million dollar mansions in the outskirts of these pirate towns. Hmmm… destroyers… 5″ 54 cal guns… sounds like a naval gunfire mission to me. About 10 rounds of 5″ HEPD per mansion… follow up with a few rounds of Willie-Pete to make it glow. Yup… that ought to do it.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Perhaps Little Billy Kristol should put his little white body on the line himself.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Seems to me that it wasn’t that long ago that this problem was occurring in the straits of Sumatra not that long ago, off of Singapore. I’m not sure how that situation was resolved.
But this is what Navies are for. Post some destroyers and an escort carrier off the Horn of Africa. Use air power to reduce the on shore infrastructure necessary for pirate activity and the case is solved. This is the kind of thing Navy guys like to do during peace time – patrol the seas.
Of bigger problems is what to do with failed states, such as Somalia. They are always going to be a source of this kind of thing and their people are living in poverty and misery. This of course is a problem for the U.N. to address. It was created for just these kinds of circumstances.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Televised hangings, you sick bastard? Would they get a trial first, or would we look into the matter after they are dead?
November 30th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Seems to me that it wasn’t that long ago that this problem was occurring in the straits of Sumatra not that long ago, off of Singapore. I’m not sure how that situation was resolved.
Never was solved. Up until recently the Malaaca straights we considered the most dangerous routes. Now it is Somalia. Nothing could ever be done to get rid of the pirates there.
As to putting guns on the ships. The owners are not afraid of carrying big guns. They are afraid of the holes the pirates guns will put in their boats. Rather pay a ransom than build a new boat AND pay for the oil cleanup from the last tanker.
Convoys are probably the answer. Just that these big tankers are so expensive to run that nobody wants to hang around for 13 hours waiting for the convoy to form up.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Seems to me that it wasn’t that long ago that this problem was occurring in the straits of Sumatra not that long ago, off of Singapore. I’m not sure how that situation was resolved.
Are you referring to Straits of Malacca? I think it was resolved through joint patrols by the 3 countries sharing the straits – Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore. Of course, the situation is a bit different than Somalia. These countries have functional goverment and military. Plus, they also have ports which are lucrative source of income for the countries, so it is in their best economic interest to curb piracy.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Why does Kristol or anyone for that matter, think this is our problem?
I don`t get it. The oil belongs to Saudi`s.They are well armed and well heeled.I`m sure they can handle it w/o American blood.
NeoCons always want to intervene and drop bombs.
Then we get to hear Hannity and Limbough wondering how we stop terrorism.
Easy.Stop terrorizing!
November 30th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Bill Kristol has been wrong on so many issues that I wonder why he’s even considered as a worthwhile source of information on national strategy.
On a radio talk show I heard a Somali Professor and author, now residing in the US, come up with a position on how to end the piracy dilemma we’re discussing.
He claims that the pirates in that area essentially belong to two close-knit tribes operating in the region. He suggests that we should focus on raiding/capturing tribal leaders and their family members, and isolating them elsewhere. The warning to the pirates is that they will not see them until their lawless behavior is completely ended. Further, additional raids to capture other clan members will happen unless they ended their abhorrent way of living.
The Professor claims that this will effectively end the piracy that exists in this region. I believe it is an approach worth considering.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
He simply hasn’t researched the issue, and shouldn’t be pandered to.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
A little history: The Somalia government does not exist. The Pirates are correct that only guns control their country and the people are without basic needs. Their coastal waters are overfished by other nations, depriving them of basic food.
They are doing what anyone would do to save their families.
Apparently because they are black poor people who dare to commit crimes like Westerners…they must be stopped. Maybe we should stop the thieving fishing industries, oil and mining companies that pollute/kill wherever they steal that wealth.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
The islamists actually put a stop to all toll style lootings across mogadishu and southern somalia, then america alongside with couple of puppets ethiopia and the transitional gov, came to squash these guys out because god forbid they were “terrorists” cleaning up the streets of mogadishu something the actual gov. who is funded by the u.s could not achieve. in less than several weeks these “islamists” put an end to all the looting and stealing and danger that surrounded the people for over 14yrs. Thanks to the u.s for once again putting there hand to literally “reset” somalia and let the chips fall where they may.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Somalia has the biggest coastline in africa, right?. Anyway fuck whoever was fishing off of these poor people EEZ zone. they deserve that. oh and by btw, did the pirates hurt anyone they captured? except for one guy who didnt get medical attention because of his condition these pirates actually are after money not killing they’re hostages. Fuckin capitalist motherfuckin pirates, biggest tanker or thing ever stolen. lol
November 30th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Someone tell that fool kristol that these pirates are somali fishermen who have resorted to piracy when foreign trawlers have been stealing somalia’s maritime resources with impunity.Since somalia has no navy to protect it’s waters, fishermen are left to their own devices. The fishermen have been complaining for years to the United natiions but to no avail. Now they are simply striking back. They are fighting back to earn a living for their families. If the international community is not willing stop these foreign thieves then it’s only natural for these fishermen to fight back
The pirates have become somalia’s coastal guard.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
How about every ship having a hightech surveylance system so they can shoot these wittle play boats with big guns. In other words if I had a yacht and I say a little dingy speading towards me it would be easy to pick it off. please
November 30th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
It has also been said that incidents of foreign fishing trawlers have decreased ever since the piracy issue. If you are dumb enough to fish in somalian waters and think you can get away with it because somalia has no government or navy to protect it then you deserve whatever that is coming to you
November 30th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Am I the only one that could picture Bill Kristol (or ANY neocon for that matter, Cheney, Dub, et al) in the most minor of military skirmishes with a huge wet stain on his pants and sucking his thumb?
There is nothing more putrid than weasels who never considered putting themselves in a position to where there lives would be at risk, to bang the drums to constantly send our brave men into potential danger.
Kristol and Cheney, you are two of the biggest scourges to ever inhabit our country, and you never should have had an audience outside of your kind.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I don’t think anyone one pointed out the most relevant fact yet in this whole thing.
Currently no country has agree to try any of the pirates. A large number have already been caught and boarded by the international task force but they have to let them go once they have disarmed them.
Oh and although others have mentioned it a lot of ye guys don’t seem to be aware that there is already an growing international task force in the area, the US isn’t being asked to act unilaterally, I for one would prefer if they break that habit. Other courties are quiet willing to pitch in with peace keeping and other military efforts but not in the guns blazing, shoot first ask questions later way that the US does. Some of US lern from out mistakes and prefer not to repeat them.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Oh, for the hell of it: A musical animated web video that combines Pirates, Emperors, St Augustine, Noam Chomsky, and Schoolhouse Rock.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Or here
http://www.piratesandemperors.com/
November 30th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Aaaaaaaargh!!!! We should take along lots of Home Depot planks and make the pirates walk them. …..save a really splintery one for ramming up the smirking Krystal’s wazoo.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:01 am
As a former Marine with plenty of experience in Somalia and other shitholes I can tell you this would not be easy. If you have any knowledge of what is going on here you would know that this is not an isolated band of pirates on the coasts of Somalia. It is well organized and directed from various cities throughout Somailia. Since Somalia has long been a failed state our only recourse is to take military action along the coasts, find and track down the leadership wherever they are in Somalia, while taking back the pirated ships without getting their crews killed. Good luck with all that. Somalia is not a place anyone is eager to get into again and our military is stretched too thin and equipment is too worn out for a major excursion of this type. All of this is why shipping companies have preferred to pay the ransoms demanded. But it is reaching a breaking point now as the pirates have gotten to greedy so we will see where it goes from here. BTW to Bill Kristol and all the other Chickenhawks who are so willing to risk the life and limb of others…go fuck yourselves.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:05 am
In comment #88, Lone Dog wrote:
“Simple? As simple as patrolling from San Diego to Seattle out as far as Hawaii….looking for relatively small fast wood boats that don’t show up well on radar.
Ashore, there is nowhere to invade and lots of places to hide. No pirate dens ashore. Just a bunch of barren up and down land with scattered villages where one poor villager looks pretty much like another.”
This is the most blatant example of someone writing on this matter who is entirely ignorant of the actual situation. First of all, the “small, fast, wood boats” are launched from much larger merchant vessels. Second, there are “pirate dens” ashore: Boosaaso is the town which acts the pirate headquarters. There’s an entire industry which has arisen there to support the piracy—from accountants to shepherd the pirates’ finances, to catering services feeding the hostages, to builders of McMansions for the newly wealthy pirates. As brutal as it sounds and would be, shelling the harbor would seriously disrupt what has become a smoothly operating local industry. Maybe it would require some ground operations, but it wouldn’t require an occupation of extended presence. Comparisons to Mogadishu are spurious. A much better comparison would be to Panama.
In #102, YsiaD wrote:
“A little history: The Somalia government does not exist. The Pirates are correct that only guns control their country and the people are without basic needs. Their coastal waters are overfished by other nations, depriving them of basic food.
They are doing what anyone would do to save their families.
Apparently because they are black poor people who dare to commit crimes like Westerners…they must be stopped.”
I have some sympathy for them and I think we should do what we can (non-militarily) to solve the underlying problem and/or otherwise provide some relief to these fishermen who have, truly, effectively been driven to piracy. They first began this as a response to foreign vessels fishing in their territorial waters because there was no one to patrol the coast and prevent such incursions.
Nevertheless, and regardless of what one thinks of the nations and corporations involved in shipping in the region, this is a crucial economic shipping area and the piracy is a serious problem that must be solved. Navies have a long and successful history of dealing with piracy, this is not an intractable situation.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:05 am
Thanks little fat-man for sharing your never ending war strategy with us common folk.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:47 am
Kristol reminds of Rimmer from Red Dwarf. I can easily picture him in a dinky uniform giving GWB a full double-Rimmer salute
December 1st, 2008 at 1:27 am
Allowing these pirates to capture ships with impunity, and then reward them with ransom payments, is totally unacceptable. It encourages the notion that the U.S. and other nations are weak and timerous. They can be identified, and destroyed, and should be, immediately. Sinking a few will put a crimp in the piracy business. It only remains to determine who will do it.
December 1st, 2008 at 1:29 am
Of course, I meant *timorous*. Pardon the misspelling.
December 1st, 2008 at 1:44 am
>Kristol’s Next War
…should only occur once that gormless Gomer Pyle enlists.
December 1st, 2008 at 2:19 am
Per Keith Ellis
This is the most blatant example of someone writing on this matter who is entirely ignorant of the actual situation. First of all, the “small, fast, wood boats” are launched from much larger merchant vessels.
Well, I won’t throw stones but I will throw some facts. Bosaao, one of the largest cities in Somalia,and in the North of Somalia on the Gulf of Aden, is a capital of 6 or 7 provinces. It has a a population, if I recall correctly, of a little over 400,000 and, unfortunately is a real arm pit of a town, especially if you are not Muslim.
It may well be that the local financiers of the pirates are located in Bosaao. But, good luck in figuring out who they are as only a handful actually know. Certainly outsiders would never be able to walk in and figure out who they were.
Additionally, there is considerable speculation that the actual financing is coming from outside Somalia, in exchange for the lions share of the take.
Nobody is really sure what the “larger merchant vessels’ are but it is most likely they they are 40 – 60 foot wood fishing vessels, of which there are HUNDREDS almost identical, actually fishing, in the area (you may recall this all started because some patriotic Somalis were trying to run off all the fishing vessels encroaching on their territory and then moved to bigger more profitable game). The 12 – 18 foot hard bottomed inflatables that attack the large ships are believed to be launched off these vessels….but nobody has reliably reported seeing this happen. And, since many of the fishing boats carry similar inflatables it would be easy to throw a few AK47s, a couple RPGs and some ammo overboard if approached be a military vessel. Now it looks like any other fishing boat.
The vessels they are using are probably very similar to the 58 foot wooden Thai fishing boat mistakenly sunk by the Indian Navy, last week. This occurred about 700 miles directly East of Eyl Somalia in the Indian Ocean. These boats are most likely remnants from the pirates earlier escapades, boats known to run without lights or radar reflectors to avoid detection and save on fuel.
However, there is minimal piracy in the Bosaoo area. This area has been fairly heavily patrolled in the last few months. The Sirius Star was 1,200 miles due South of Bosaoo at about E45 degrees and S 7 Degrees 30 minutes. This is about 600 miles E of Tansania (Tansania is below Kenya, which is below Somalia) and 1,200 miles South of Bosaao. Actually closer to the Seychelles island resorts in the Indian Ocean than to the African continent.
The Sirius Star was then motored to the area around Eyl, on the East coast of Somalia (the 800 miles of barren desolote beautiful Beach I mentioned.)and anchored about 2 miles off shore (there are no ports or harbors for 500 miles) where it sits today along with the 12 – 15 other large vessels taken and not yet ransomed.
So, as I have kept saying. I have been to all these places, except Kenya.
And a couple other corrections to above writers. The Barbary pirates thrived for 250 years from about 1550 until 1800. It then took the 1st Barbary war in 1801 and the 2nd Barbary War ending in 1815 to quickly get rid of them, although some ransoms were still being paid as late as 1830.
Somalia is in a terrible mess and nobody seems real interested in sorting it out. I have no idea how it can be sorted out. But, as to the piracy issue, if Captain Kristol is so eager he can have a go at it himself. I think most other folks understand it is not an easy thing to do. Sort of like wiping out the drug trade. easy to get the small fish, but not so easy to get the big ones. And when you do get a big one out of action, he is immediately replaced by some other eager wanna-be big fish.
December 1st, 2008 at 2:30 am
Following is a link to a Google map showing the Somalia area with areas of piracy indicated. when they speak of a port they are really speaking of a place where a few small fishing boats are hauled up onto the beach at night. About like Loreto, Mexico if any body had been there.
December 1st, 2008 at 2:33 am
Bill should just go himself. He could gag the pirates to death with his goofy grin.
December 1st, 2008 at 2:36 am
Well, that didn’t work out so well….You’ll have to cut and past.You can click on the icons on the left to zoom in to the various areas Keith Ellis please note that EYL is refereed to as pirate Home Town.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=101065261274254213289.00045bf8668933f828869&t=h&ll=7.972198,49.658203&spn=28.433029,35.15625&z=4&source=embed
December 1st, 2008 at 2:57 am
kill them all. they’re armed thugs who are endangering international commerce by committing crimes on the high seas. blow every single one of them out of the water. forget “due process”. these are animals doing it for profit. nothing noble or romantic about it. kill them all.
December 1st, 2008 at 3:12 am
Oh, in the interest of integrity, I gladly admit I was wrong in identifying the main port as Boosaaso—I couldn’t recall the name of the town referred to in the BBC article (Eyl) and a quick Googling led me astray. Thanks, LoneDog, for forcing me to do more homework and to subsequently correct my mistake.
December 1st, 2008 at 3:16 am
Shorter Kristol: Well look, they could at least shell the pirate bases, it’s not like anyone is going to notice or care about a few more dead Somali Muslims even if they are women and children.
December 1st, 2008 at 7:24 am
Typical Jew. Send others to fight. Jews are the most under represented group in the U.S. military and always have been. They are virtually non existent in the elite fighting groups like the seals.
December 1st, 2008 at 7:57 am
Why doesn’t Bill Kristol just stand on a corner with a sign. All sorts of people will wave and honk and make his day and he can claim he is a messenger to the people.
December 1st, 2008 at 8:22 am
Another dual citizen passport owner from the Bedouin tribe of Israel, warmongering to get the moron US into another war???
Time to clean out this infested Rat hole of news media and our dis-functional Government.
December 1st, 2008 at 9:46 am
Seems to me what a solution would be is to just have some decoy ships. Ships could be disguised as plain lumbering freighters but could be armed to the teeth. Let the pirates get within range, and then drop down the sides of containers, etc. and blow them to smitherins. A few ships like that in those waters and no pirates returning home would get them wondering!
December 1st, 2008 at 11:15 am
Ann Coulter had her jaw wired shut not out of sympathy to us here in America but due to some medical malady, which is unfortunate. Perhaps Mr. Kristol could follow her lead and do us all a favor by having his jaw wired shut as well. I mean, it’s the patriotic thing for him to do. Shut the hell up until you’re right on one thing at least one time. Ah, but he’s no patriot by any stretch of the imagination. Mr. Kristol is a buffoon who has no place on the national stage.
December 1st, 2008 at 11:43 am
Keith M Ellis,
Appreciate the comments.
What most don’t seem to understand is that Somalia is a really big country. Equivalent to the size of Washington, Oregon, California and the northern 300 miles of Mexico. Coast runs 1500 miles. Equivalent to US Pacific Coast and most of the border with Mexico. It would take about 300,000 to occupy this Muslim country and we would be there for years rebuilding the infrastructure with maybe 1000 American deaths and no support from the rest of the world. Starting to sound familiar? Of course, we could just lob rockets into the populated areas, but that hasn’t worked out so well for us in other places either. Plus, the actual pirates are, apparently, offshore where they blend in easily with the hundreds of legitimate fishing vessels, so that would take a navy of perhaps a carrier group and 30 – 50 additional ships for support, transport and patrol.
December 1st, 2008 at 11:43 am
I don’t know whether he has children or not, but maybe he should imagine them in military service or put on a uniform himself and see how quick he is to constantly suggest such half-baked actions.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Give Bill Kristol a gun and send him to the front line let him fight his own wars.
Bill Kristol is a typical ‘Chicken Hawk’ all talk and no action.
How many deferments did you get for Vietnam, Bill ?
Keep your nose out of other countries affairs, Bill !
Read Herbert Feiss, Bill, and listen to GOOD ADVICE.
Learn the lesson, Bill.
Look at Iraq – you FAILED that one !
Look at Afghanistan, you failed that one !
Look at Palestine, your Father’s friends failed that one !
LIFE LESSON: If you fuck with people, they will fuck you back.
December 1st, 2008 at 3:00 pm
I imagine lots of Marines would be happy to kick ass, take names, give candy bars to the children and post it on You Tube. I don’t imagine very many Marines are itching for another endless bucket of shit, where half the kids are packing Kalashnikovs and every abandoned car is a potential IED.
So really the question for Billy Kristol is, “Say Bill, what makes you think your adventure will be more like the former and less like the latter? What’s your track record predicting this sort of thing?”
December 1st, 2008 at 3:40 pm
It is always people like Kristol who have never been in the military less alone been in a shooting war who always want to start another one. Put his ass on the ground with the Army or Marines with a rifle in his hands and see how quick he’ll shit his pants and cry for his mommie when the first bullet whizzes by his head, then maybe he wouldn’t want to start a war so damn easily.
Assholes’ like Kristol are the ones who always want to make war.
Does Bush neocons ring a bell?
December 1st, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Not confuse y’all with facts, but in order for it to be worth the effort to steal an oil tanker, you have to actually, you know, SELL it — or at least, the oil in it.
It’s not exactly an untraceable crime. The oil itself is fungible, as is the cash, once either gets into the market. But these aren’t CDO’s or credit default swaps — they’re big frigging boats full of stinky liquid that has to be handled by ginormous pipes before any actual money is made out of ‘em.
When pirates hijack an oil tanker, it doesn’t suddenly vanish. It isn’t an abstraction. There isn’t any doubt where the damned thing IS — nobody is wearing a deerstalker hat and puffing a pipe, staring at the Indian Ocean looking for clues.
If they can take it, why can’t we take it back — and hang the bad guys who are on it? (how do we know who they are? Um… ask the shipping company for a list of crew, and hang anybody on the boat who isn’t on the list?)
Kristol is an asshole, but it still begs the question: why isn’t it a good idea for the good guys to simply fight back, with better defended ships and prompt, fatal retaliation against pirates who manage to seize any?
December 1st, 2008 at 4:52 pm
I didn’t mean that something should not be done. Of course there should be some retaliation. Whether it comes from the U.S. or any other country. But it seems to me also, that the owners of the ships should be responsible for securing the safety of their own vessels.
But when it comes to Kristol, I was just trying to point out that people like him are always so quick to use the military option without ever having to know what it feels like to have to put their own ass at risk. They always want someone else to do their dirty work, without ever having to get their own hands dirty. They never realize the unintended consequences of their actions.
December 1st, 2008 at 5:53 pm
(patiently) That’s the POINT, dtm. The oil tankers are being ransomed — so piracy pays. That’s not a good thing.
Somebody is getting the money. How about we shoot THEM, instead of paying ‘em? That’s a better incentive structure for the next guy who thinks ‘gee, nobody can defend an oil tanker.’ (which is equally true for the guy who steals it, yanno)
Sure, it’s gotta be easy to blow up or rupture an oil tanker — but I doubt it’s that easy to escape from one, particularly out at sea, if the US Navy or the Coast Guard decided that it was worth catching anybody on it.
And if as a pirate you destroy the tanker (or the oil), YOU DON’T GET PAID. That’s a good thing, not a bad one.
So by going after the pirates themselves, they’re left with what’s now a weak, and purely terrorist attempt to create an extortion racket — ‘better pay us, or we will send suicide squads to destroy your oil’. Yeah, it’ll be easy to get volunteers for those missions. “Just get in the dingy, Abdullah — you will be fish food, but think of the glory!”
So notice: suicide pirates is NOT what we have now. I think that’s cuz it is a much weaker threat, a much more difficult business model, and a sign that we’d be far better off if the inherent difficulties of getting away with stealing ships at sea were made manifest in the wakes of legit warships.
December 1st, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Uhhhhh, and the crew. Maybe we could just the shoot the crew first to make sure the pirates know we are serious.
And it’s not our country so I guess nobody in their right mind would expect us to actually clean up the oil off the entire East Coast of Africa, Madagascar and probably India, as well.
Of course the pirates are also using M88’s just about the most vicious 50 calbre there is. Accurate to a range of about a mile and can blow a hole the size of a fist in the side of an oil tanker.
And a final note. Pirates aren’t hiding the boats. they are anchored off Eyl and a couple other Eastern coast Somali villages about 2 to 9 miles offshore.
It’s the crew, the cargos and the value of the ships that are the concerns.
But, good point on the ransom payments. Not real sure how that is working. Does anybody else know. That would seem to be the weak points. I guess cash exchanged on the boats.
December 1st, 2008 at 10:37 pm
What ever happened to the right of self defense? It should supersede any international law. A well trained crew and a couple of mini-guns would be more than enough. At present the pirates can attempt their hijackings with impunity. They would think twice if they stand a good chance of getting their boats sunk and their heads blown off.
Arming the vessels costs far less than paying a ransom.
December 2nd, 2008 at 11:01 am
Mini-gun? What is a mini-gun? Pirates have Rocket Propelled grenades and Barrett semi-automatic 50 Caliber full metal jacket guns that can punch holes the size of a fist in the tanker from 1/2 mile away. Guys on the boat are bouncing around shooting at a small boat also bouncing around. Pirates, on the other hand, would be hard pressed to miss something the size of an oil tanker.
Just what we need. A firefight on an oil tanker.
December 5th, 2008 at 8:06 am
Tags: Africa Blog , Africa economy , Global News , Security , Somalia , africa , africa , conflict , east Africa , Europe , gulf of aden , horn of africa , islamist , oil , peace , peacekeeping , saudi arabia , Somalia , suez canal , united
December 10th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
One guy proposed a military solution to make it less profitable, without making it into a “Marines go onshore” type of operation.
Pirates, Again
After 2,000 Years, It’s Time for a New Strategy
By Peter Fromuth
Thursday, December 4, 2008; A21
Somali pirates hijack another boat — or two or three — every day despite the best efforts of the U.S. 5th Fleet, NATO, Russia, India and others. This is not new; pirates have been frustrating the mighty for at least 2,000 years — since snatching Julius Caesar, then ransoming him for 50 talents, and leading Alexander the Great on a wild goose chase around the Mediterranean. As the U.N. Security Council grapples with Somali piracy, its members are in venerable company.
According to Plutarch, Caesar got even: He caught and crucified his hapless captors, but he never drove piracy from the Roman Empire. Today’s brigands have faster boats and rocket-propelled grenades, but their best assets are the same as those used to stymie Caesar and Alexander — big seas, many prey and few protectors. For Somali pirates today, the odds are even better: They have a hunting ground of 2.5 million square nautical miles (about five times the size of the Gulf of Mexico) transited by 20,000 commercial ships annually. Muscle-bound warships try but regularly fail to defend all those merchantmen.
It may be time for a new strategy. This week, the Security Council gave Secretary General Ban Ki-moon 90 days to come up with one. The usual nostrums do not look promising. Late last month, for example, the council adopted a British plan for travel and financial sanctions against the pirates’ leading lights. That’s fine, but the pirates seem to have their own means of travel and finance, including million-dollar bounties that fall from the sky in suitcases — and no one seems to know who the leaders are anyway. The Organization of African Unity wants a U.N. peacekeeping force to tame Somalia, but the United Nations has sought recruits for months without success. Private security guards will shoot it out with bandits for $5,000 to $20,000 a day, but many ships carry flammable cargos, so seaborne firefights between thugs and testosterone-soaked mercenaries are best avoided.
The global shipping association wants to seal off Somalia with a blockade. Since the country has the longest coast in Africa, that’s a little ambitious. But the shippers are on the right track. Somali pirates need havens that have water deep enough not to run trophy ships aground yet that are close enough to towns for resupply. From the capital, Mogadishu, north around the Horn of Africa into the Gulf of Aden, Somalia has only a few suitable places: Eyl, Hobyo and Haradhere on the Indian Ocean; Bosaso on the Gulf of Aden; Mogadishu itself; and possibly one or two more. Separate the pirates from those havens, and their cost-risk ratios may once again favor fishing.
At each of those ports, cooperating naval vessels could establish a sort of police line to challenge, board and inspect suspicious craft, both leaving and returning. Evidence of piratical acts or intent would trigger confiscation of their boats, weapons and materials and the detention of crews for prosecution. One small naval ship per port, equipped with a helicopter and smaller boats, would suffice. The dozen ships patrolling these waters could handle this task with ships to spare for pirate duty farther out at sea.
A legal basis for a pirate blockade exists. In fact, piracy has been a crime under international law since the 17th century. Building on customary law and the U.N. Law of the Sea Convention, the Security Council in June authorized a six-month mandate, which this week was extended for a year, for cooperating states to use force against pirates in Somali territorial waters and on the high seas. Because piracy is a crime of universal jurisdiction, captors with no connection to the victims, property or perpetrators may detain and prosecute suspects. For those who prefer to extradite suspects from Somalia, nearby Kenya is an option; its courts have been convicting pirates for years.
Alongside those sturdy criminal and jurisdictional foundations is the Security Council’s own authority to impose blockades, under Article 42 of the U.N. Charter, to counter threats of any stripe to international security. Because the multinational flotilla already in place and the European Union force en route to Somalia essentially operate independently, a clear mandate would facilitate agreement on a number of key issues — tasks, tactics, communications, rules of engagement and logistics. A limited blockade would also cost less than the combined insurance premiums, security charges, expenses from longer voyages and million-dollar bounties likely to be paid if piracy continues. Shippers could cushion the blow to national treasuries by paying into a multinational fund — set up outside the United Nations — to support the operation.
The concept of a blockade was rejected last month by a NATO spokesman as something not “contemplated” by the Security Council. Now, though, it should be. Trillions of dollars in commercial cargos transit the sea lanes annually; so long as they do, thugs in boats will prey on them. The world has a chance to shut down the Somali pirate franchise. Let’s not squander it.
The writer, a lawyer, served at the State Department and the U.S. Mission to the United Nations during the Clinton administration.
December 12th, 2008 at 2:00 am
Again. There are no ports! I bet a free beer to anybody who can provide me the Latitude & Longitude of anything approaching a harbor on the entire coast of Somalia. There are no pirate dens with grisly guys, with parrots and wenches, singing Yo Ho Ho songs. Only 1,800 miles of beach with hundreds of tiny villages and poor Muslim villagers. Ships are not being run aground. In fact the seized boats are being anchored 2 – 9 miles offshore because that is as close as these ships, drawing 30 – 35 feet of water can get. There are about 3,000 fishing boats in the area and about 200,000 small pangas all run up on the beaches. NO PORSTS! Study the maps, Look closely on Earth.Google. Listen to the experts. This is like Vietnam and trying to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Only a massive naval and ground operation, with the support of the Western supported Somali government, currently fighting a slowly losing battle with radical Muslim insurgents, will have any impact.
However, the Somali government has just granted quasi-approval for the use of foreign soldiers or mercenaries on their soil under direction of UN sponsorship. A step, at least. Something will probably be done soon, if only to save the faltering Somali government.
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:36 am
After we we waste millions of dollars to blow the pirates out of the water, why dont we go ashore and push western democracy onto the citizens of Somalia. Oh wait….they dont have oil……
December 25th, 2008 at 7:42 am
You guys forget that we are genetic Marines, our DNA is the same as the Sea People, Phoenicians & Barbary pirates
E1b1b1 Somalid pride
March 1st, 2009 at 5:38 pm
cialis
Excellent site. It was pleasant to me.
March 11th, 2009 at 4:13 am
If you have to do it, you might as well do it right
March 17th, 2009 at 2:20 am
I bookmarked this site. Thank you for good job!
tramadol
March 22nd, 2009 at 5:52 am
tramadol
Great site. Good info
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:18 am
buy viagra online
Incredible site!
March 23rd, 2009 at 4:19 am
viagra
I want to say – thank you for this!
March 31st, 2009 at 1:17 am
Very nice site! cheap cialis http://oieypxa.com/oryrqqr/4.html
March 31st, 2009 at 1:18 am
Very nice site! cheap viagra
March 31st, 2009 at 1:18 am
Very nice site! [url=http://oieypxa.com/oryrqqr/2.html]cheap cialis[/url]
March 31st, 2009 at 1:18 am
Very nice site!
April 2nd, 2009 at 4:52 am
If you have to do it, you might as well do it right
buy cheap viagra
April 3rd, 2009 at 4:01 am
It is the coolest site,keep so!
cheap brand pfizer viagra
April 9th, 2009 at 4:42 am
Thanks for the review! viagra
April 10th, 2009 at 5:12 am
Very nice site! cheap cialis http://apxoiey.com/aoxrxx/4.html
April 10th, 2009 at 5:13 am
Very nice site!