Gay Marriage
Jim Henley recounts a conversation with his daughter:
The Littlest Offering, Age 8: What’s that about?
Me: It’s a commercial opposing Proposition 8 in California, which would make it illegal for gay people to get married.
TLO: But that’s an insult to Mary Gay and Vicki! (My stepsisters-in-law in Illinois.)
Me: Yes. And Uncle Tony. (My brother-in-law’s brother in McLean.)
TLO: And Bailey’s dads! (Bailey is a fellow Brownie.)
Me: Yeah, them too.
Jim recounts, “I would never tell you that eight-year-olds possess some inherent wisdom that grownups must always heed, but whenever I hear people complain that a problem with gay marriage is, us regular people just can’t explain it to our kids, I have to ask, what’s so complicated about the concept? Also, my daughter does recognize the human costs of marriage restriction on people she knows and loves.”
Indeed. My upbringing on 12th Street in Manhattan rarely provides me with important insights, but it was like growing up in the future in terms of social acceptance of gays and lesbians. If you’re not acclimated to prevailing discriminatory norms from a very young age, it’s actually very confusing to have them explained to you. There’s no obvious reason to a child that some substantial minority of couples shouldn’t be same sex.
47 Responses to “Gay Marriage”
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November 2nd, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Yeah, one of the simultaneously depressing and inspiring things this year is how many 18-21 year olds I know that just aren’t interested in the election at all, see no difference in the candidates, probably won’t vote, etc. Depressing for the obvious reasons, but inspiring because they don’t see *anything historic* about this election at all. A black president is just banal as a white one to most of them. So hey, they still won’t vote, but that’s progress.
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:16 pm
In my experience, opposition to gay marriage is something that must be learned. Children aren’t born with it. But if much teach it to them, why would it be so hard to teach something else? Or just not teach them at all?
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:18 pm
One of the things that makes me despair the most is anti-gay obsessions. Although I find them harmful and irrational, I understand religious beliefs. But that people care what two consenting adults do or are labeled — I just don’t get it at all. I mean — not just disagree, but can’t begin to fathom it. Makes me feel alien to a huge percentage of Americans.
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Yeah, one of the simultaneously depressing and inspiring things this year is how many 18-21 year olds I know that just aren’t interested in the election at all, see no difference in the candidates, probably won’t vote, etc.
I understand your point and your point about how their apathy is “inspiring,” given the circumstances, is a good perspect. Really, though,18-21 year olds are never interested in the election– or any election at all. There’s nothing to be disappointed in, because they’re acting in just about the way you’d expect when it comes to apathy.
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:42 pm
It’s like the song says: you’ve got to be carefully taught.
Hearing that (”You’ve Got to be Taught”) from the Wee Kids on the Kid Power album is surely before Matt’s time. (To be fair, I never saw the show on television, since it was a little before _my_ time too. Still have the album though.)
And that seems like a harsh reminder that progress is won only inch by inch. The same sentiment that was an indictment of racism in 1949, and bore repeating in 1974, is equally appropriate regarding homophobia in 2008.
The more things change, the more … we must fight for change.
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:13 pm
This sort of thing is true in all sorts of areas, of varying degrees of consequentiality. I was once getting off an airplane, and the people in front of me as we deplaned were a young mother and her son, who looked to be 5 or 6. As we passed the flight deck, the flight crew was tidying up and saying goodbye to passengers, and the co pilot was a young woman. The mother saw a teaching moment and said (once we were in the jetway), “Look, Billy, the pilot was a lady!” There was a pause, and the kid said, “so?” — it was no big deal for him, he didn’t need no teachin’
It’s a good aspect of the parable that David Foster Wallace told at the start of his commencement talk at Kenyon — old fish says to 2 young fish, “boys, how’s the water today?” and the youngsters nod, move on, and one whispers to the other “what the hell’s ‘water?’”
November 2nd, 2008 at 3:41 pm
does that mean kids in Manhattan don’t use “gay” as an insult?
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:44 pm
No, kid in Manhattan use “gay” as an insult constantly. They just don’t seem to connect it with homosexuality. My impression is that there is still a connection with effeminacy, though.
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Although I’m sure some of the gay kids make that connection, of course.
November 2nd, 2008 at 5:04 pm
The fact that kids who aren’t taught that homosexuality is wrong from when they are young don’t believe it is wrong is one of the main motivations for those who do to not let it become socially acceptable behavior.
The anti-gay movement from the very beginning has always claimed to be motivated by concern for their children.
November 2nd, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Why doesn’t Barack Obama support gay marriage?
November 2nd, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Er, this has to be one of Mr. Yglesias’ dumbest posts yet, and that’s saying a lot.
An eight year old doesn’t understand what _sex_ is (at least, we hope- never underestimate the capability of hipster Yglesian liberals to corrupt young minds.) Of course, therefore, she doesn’t understand the moral meaning tied up with marriage, and cannot assess how homosexual marriage might or might not detract from it.
JohnMcCain Worse than Bush,
“Consenting adults” is the absurd “standard” that liberal society uses to judge (or as it were, not judge) the morality of an act. But it isn’t God’s standard, it isn’t my standard, it isn’t the standard of natural reason, and it isn’t the standard of most morally sane people througout history. By that standard you could justify adultery, incest, and polygamy.
November 2nd, 2008 at 8:04 pm
When our daughter, then age 8, first encountered “no on gay marriage” signs during a previous campaign, and we explained it was about people like Jim and Lou across the street being able to get married, she replied, “I thought they already were married.”
PS: You guys who know what God wants — she changed her mind. She told me, just now. So you can no longer argue against it, and you might as well just pack it up and go home. Or, alternatively, go stone an adulterer.
November 2nd, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Last night me and my 6-year-old daughter were playing with a wooden train set, and I had the bright idea of setting a small dollhouse down next to it. Looking inside, I couldn’t see where one of the dolls was.
Me: “Where’s the other doll? Oh, there she is. Two girl dolls.”
Her: “Yes. (coming up with an idea) They’re two wives! They got married, because they live in Holland.”
My wife is Dutch, which means that since our kids started asking about how getting married works, they’ve been aware of the existence of gay marriages in Holland (and Massachussetts, another place our kids are familiar with). They’ve never had the slightest trouble grasping this concept.
On a side note, it’s extremely interesting that while the US and the Netherlands are moving towards formalizing gay marriage, the Scandinavian countries haven’t; they have full domestic partnership. That’s because the Netherlands and the US have relatively conservative social attitudes on “norms and values” issues.
November 2nd, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Hector: “An eight year old doesn’t understand what _sex_ is … Of course, therefore, she doesn’t understand the moral meaning tied up with marriage, and cannot assess how homosexual marriage might or might not detract from it.”
Hey, that’s nothing–I’m 27 and even I don’t understand how homosexual marriage might “detract” from heterosexual marriage! Maybe you can be the one to finally explain it to me.
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:11 pm
What Hector regards as dumb I see as the basis for Matt’s observation. For kids, including post-pubescent ones, marriage is about all kinds of hugely important things except sex. Ask most married guys, and they’ll tell you that unfortunately that’s pretty close to the way it is.
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:24 pm
I think those that are against gay marriage are mainly that way because they want to preserve the traditional meaning of marriage (husband and wife). That’s why civil unions get more support than gay marriage.
Let’s say your favorite sports team is the Washington Redskins. That’s been their team name for many, many years. And now imagine a new NFL expansion team wants to also call themselves the Redskins. You admit that the new Redskins team loves the game of football just as much as you do, but you say your team name is already taken and they should call themselves something different.
Could that be Barack Obama’s thinking?
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:24 pm
DKE and Tomemos,
Are you referring specifically to civil marriage, or would you like to see churches begin teaching that homosexual acts are acceptable and performing gay marriages? What do you think a child understands by ‘marriage’- the civil sense or the sacramental sense?
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Thanks
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:31 pm
For what it’s worth, I do want to preserve the name of marriage, but I’m OK with civil unions. I’m also opposed to churches performing gay marriages, and I hope that my church will come to its senses on this matter.
November 2nd, 2008 at 10:08 pm
RE: Hector “Are you referring specifically to civil marriage, or would you like to see churches begin teaching that homosexual acts are acceptable and performing gay marriages?”
Hector, are you really this blinkered, or are you just posting to hear your head rattle? Do you really think that the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy has the power to change what a preacher in a pulpit is going to say? When interracial marriage became legal, did federal troops force the Southern Baptists to perform such marriages at the point of a bayonet? No-they didn’t. You’re certainly a unique voice on this board, but I find it slightly more difficult to take your point of view seriously when you write stuff like this.
November 2nd, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Vivisfugue,
I didn’t ask whether you wanted to compel the Catholic and other churches to accept gay marriages, I asked whether you would PREFER that they do. To put it another way, would you prefer that I didn’t teach my future children that homosexual acts are, in the eyes of God, a sin?
November 2nd, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Given that gay marriage is the first step on the road to legalized polygamy in America–the shift from the traditional one-man-one-woman approach to a “consenting adults” standard–I’m all for it.
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Wait a minute. That can’t be right. As I understand it, Matt is saying that children will reflect back to us (even at eight) what we’ve taught them. I mean, sure, that’s the whole premise of an education system, but Matt has a really unique insight there. A valuable contribution to the discussion, to be sure.
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:26 pm
A triple-doozy from Hector:
“Are you referring specifically to civil marriage, or would you like to see churches begin teaching that homosexual acts are acceptable and performing gay marriages?”
I’m sorry, i thought we were the people of California voting on our civil laws, not a Vatican Council.
“For what it’s worth, I do want to preserve the name of marriage, but I’m OK with civil unions.”
How generous of you. However, neither marriage nor the name of marriage is yours to preserve, any more than the name of God is. Lots of religions forbid interfaith marriages; should we ban those as well?
“To put it another way, would you prefer that I didn’t teach my future children that homosexual acts are, in the eyes of God, a sin?”
Since that will make them more intolerant, without any positive benefit that I can see—yes, I would prefer that. Luckily for you and yours, I can’t vote that my preferences be turned into law at the expense of your rights–which is exactly what Proposition 8 will do if it passes.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:09 am
“I’m also opposed to churches performing gay marriages…”
Well, sorry man, the church to which I belong proudly performs gay marriages, and we don’t understand what right you have to tell us not to.
Religious freedom, and all that.
You worry about the rites that your church performs, and let me worry about the rites that my church performs. Cool?
Patrick Meighan
Culver City, CA
November 3rd, 2008 at 3:07 am
If 8 passes Gavin Newsom should be dragged through the Castro tied behind some of the Dykes on Bikes
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Even though I’m not raised by gay or lesbian parents I feel it doesn’t matter who your parents are that you can become a gay or lesbian. I found that I was attracted to others of my kind after 14 and I was scared to tell my friends because of the way that thought of gays and lesbians. So being young and being of gay relations other peoples views on you are important and sometimes even scary. When I did come out and tell my friends some were shockd and even afraid to talk to me. Others threatened to preach and tell higher oficials at their church to take me to church and teach me that my beliefs are wrong and its against the bible. But this scared me and upset me, of course I knew this wasn’t right but I couldn’t help how I felt about my relations and people should realize I’m still the same person but you just learned something new.
November 3rd, 2008 at 2:03 pm
John McCain: Worse than Bush sez anti-gay obsession Makes me feel alien to a huge percentage of Americans.
I grew up in the South in an area that was highly segregated 50% black/50% white, and I never understood it, particularly when I was told that I couldn’t take my friend Devonne with me to our local pool. I similarly didn’t understand it when my humanities teacher was relieved of his teaching duties and told he could take or leave the undignified position of study hall monitor at the height of gay plague-AIDS prejudice.
It wasn’t a matter of what I was taught so much as what I wasn’t taught: kids have an innate sense of fairness that can only be overridden by someone scaring the bejesus out of them with words like sin and hell and them. This indoctrination works especially well when the kids in question are among the holy/elect/dominant race. Case in point: my fellow fourth grader Betty S., with whom I spent much time arguing against her fervent belief that “blacks were better off as slaves because they don’t know how to take care of themselves.” That’s not something a 9-year-old comes up with on her own.
So I’ve always felt alienated from most Americans – whether the subject is race or religion or homosexuality. As I recently told my husband, I will finally feel like an American when Obama is elected, despite the fact that I am the world’s whitest woman, because I will finally fit in among at least a plurality of my fellow citizens (at least in this one narrow category).
November 3rd, 2008 at 2:16 pm
An eight year old doesn’t understand what _sex_ is (at least, we hope- never underestimate the capability of hipster Yglesian liberals to corrupt young minds.) Of course, therefore, she doesn’t understand the moral meaning tied up with marriage, and cannot assess how homosexual marriage might or might not detract from it.
If that were true, then it would be impossible to explain hetero marriage to 8 year olds. After all, you’d have to explain how they are having Teh Sex and everything. Only you don’t.
Look, the problem here is that opponents of gay marriage are a bunch of perverts who are obsessed with hot hard pulsating penises sliding in and out of the rectums of other males. So they cannot possibly understand that you explain gay marriage to a kid the same way you explain straight marriage– by talking about two people making a lifelong commitment to spend their lives together.
November 3rd, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Patrick Meighan,
I have no desire to use the force of law to interfere with what your church does. However, I will use my freedom of speech to point out the fact that you are being unfaithful to the spirit of Christianity.
Tomemos,
I intend to teach my children exactly that, so you can just suck it. I don’t really give a d–n what you may prefer, since your preferences clearly have little to do with morality.
November 3rd, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Hector:
And then when one of your kids turns out to be gay (because, you know, parents can’t prevent that from happening), maybe he or she will hate your guts and spit on your grave.
Or, alternatively, maybe then, like many homophobes who have gay children, you will learn that there is actually nothing wrong with homosexuality.
November 3rd, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Hector: “I don’t really give a d–n what you may prefer, since your preferences clearly have little to do with morality.”
Then we’re in agreement that gay marriages should be legal, since one person’s preferences can’t be imposed on another. Thanks for clearing that up.
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Dilan,
Er, I don’t dislike gay people. I do consider that homosexual acts are a sin. So are many other things, you know. Whacking off is a sin, so is making one’s living through financial manipulation, driving one’s car more than necessary, and not donating enough to charity. All of us are sinners. As sexual sins go, homosexual acts seem to be less against nature than whacking off, for example. It doesn’t mean I hate people who whack off.
November 4th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Er, I don’t dislike gay people. I do consider that homosexual acts are a sin. So are many other things, you know. Whacking off is a sin, so is making one’s living through financial manipulation, driving one’s car more than necessary, and not donating enough to charity. All of us are sinners. As sexual sins go, homosexual acts seem to be less against nature than whacking off, for example. It doesn’t mean I hate people who whack off.
Hector, to kinda-sorta answer your question above, I really have no problem with religious people talking about homosexuality as a sin. I think they are wrong, but they have a full First Amendment right to believe that.
What I DO have a huge problem with is the combination of huge overemphasis on homosexuality by preachers and the advocacy of intolerance and legal discrimination against gays and lesbians. There’s a big difference between teaching that homosexuality is a sin and trying to use the law to stop people from being gay, or teaching people to hate gays and lesbians.
And the problem is that a lot of the rhetoric of religious conservatives goes far, far beyond simply saying that it is one of many sins and that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
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