Matthew Yglesias » America Welcomes Its New Democratic Overlords

Nov 12th, 2008 at 1:07 pm

America Welcomes Its New Democratic Overlords

If the United States is a center-right country, then people sure do seem confused:

If you try to take the whole “center-right country” question seriously, you’ll see that the whole question is ambiguous to the point of uselessness. But in an operational sense, a clear majority of the public seems to want to give Democrats a chance to govern and then perhaps kick them out afterward if the results seem bad. There’s no real sign of trepidation about the party’s agenda.

Comments
116

116 Responses to “America Welcomes Its New Democratic Overlords”

Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
AP-GfK Poll conducted by GfK Roper Public Affairs & Media. Nov. 6-10, 2008.

“Overall, please tell me whether you approve, disapprove, or neither approve nor disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job.”

Approve: 21%
Disapprove: 71%
24AheadDotCom Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Polls are great, aren’t they? Especially when they “forget” to include other groups that will be part of the BHO coalition and when they “forget” to mention the long-term impacts. See #9 on the list of reasons to oppose BHO. The first part of the third sentence of #9 could have been written just for MattY.
ed Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
you’ll see that the whole question is ambiguous to the point of uselessness

Well, that was their goal: set up a straw man, demolish, rinse, repeat.
ndm Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
I must admit to being confused about the notion of a country being center-right with respect to itself. However, the United States is center-right when compared to Europe.
Toady Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
ndm beat me to it, but indeed, the Democratic Party is a center-right party.
Grumpy Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Poll shows Americans not only want Obama to be president, they want him to accomplish the things he promised. This would be “dog bites man” except for the willful ignorance and baffling continued influence of right-wing punditry.
pat ar Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
The reason that Dems get more support from a center right country is that it has become clear to most that the Repubs are the party that only talks conservative but is far more liberal than the Dems. It’s not only that the new Dem Congress spent 40% less on earmarks that its Repub predecessors. The Dems seem more dedicated to more traditional conservative values than Repub behavior has demonstrated. Spying without checks and balances in place is not conservative. Big gov. spending without paying bills is not conservative. Religious right wanting to use government to intrude into lives is not “small government conservativism”! etc., etc.
ssa Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
The center-right myth is something that has been perpetuated upon Americans by the media and, of course, the GOP. Democrats themselves have believed the myth, refusing to call themselves “liberals” and moving to the center on most issues. Obama is no progressive leader…

http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog/
John Emerson Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I’ve never heard a Democrat, except a fake media Democrat, promote the “divided government is best” meme. Democrats want as many Democrats in all branches as possible. (Well, maybe some neolibs and the right wing of the DLC wanted divided government, but that’s the Democrat-hating wing of the Democratic Party).

The “divided government” meme is a.) the same old stupid Broderism, b.) a last-ditch way of encouraging ticket-splitting when the Republican Presidential candidate is losing, and c.) a way of diverting attention from the fact that, given unimpeded control of the government for the greater part of six years, the Republicans fucked things up worse than anyone could ever have imagined. (See, it’s an institutional problem! The Republicans are not at fault! The Democrats failed to stop them from ruining everything! Fucking Democrats! Stop me before I kill again!)
John Emerson Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
The reasons not to vote for Obama linked in #3 were presented to the American people during the election, and they were solidly rejected.

The reason that Dems get more support from a center right country is that it has become clear to most that the Repubs are the party that only talks conservative but is far more liberal than the Dems.

This is true only if you’re a moron who thinks that “liberal” is synonymous with “fucked up and full of shit”. The Republicans are not at all liberal.
mpowell Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
24’s link is pretty funny. Nothing like Reagan worshipping conservatives warning against a cult of personality around Obama.
Brian J Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
The insane back-and-forth with claims that Obama was a socialist, ran a conservative campaign, and now has to govern in a center-right fashion because that’s what this country is should have tipped a lot of people off that most of the stuff with even a minor connection to this idea was bullshit.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Folks…Issue by issue. Do a poll on what people think about specific issues, then draw conclusions from that. What you will find is that they don’t want to tax carbon, they don’t want a single payer health system and they don’t want their taxes raised. I hate to break this to you, but that’s center-right.

You’re making the same argument that idiots from my party made during the election. The one that goes that because Congress had an approval rating of 12% that Democrats wouldn’t win. Obviously, it was far more complicated than that.

Moreover, take a look at the dems that were elected. Not exactly the most progressive bunch of people that the party has ever fielded.

Matthew’s point is apt…Give them a chance and see if they screw things up. If you ignore what people believe on the ISSUES, you will get kicked out. That would be unfortunate because my party still has a great deal of cleansing to do these days.
mpowell Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Also in 9: It is true that the Dems have done a better job of upholding the values and goals that the Republican party holds that are actually defensible, but this doesn’t make the Republican party liberal. What they actually are is either plutocrats or kleptocrats, depending on how you look at it.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
DTM,

Here is why the American people generally disapproving of Congress is not inconsistent with the American people being fine with the Democrats taking over the White House too:

The polling questions you cite don’t mention the White House at all. They just refer to congressional “leaders” and to the two parties generically. Whatever Americans think of those two things, polls of congressional job approval rating consistently show very strong disapproval of the job performance of the Democrat-controlled congress.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
As I’ve said before…The inconsistencies that your seeing in the polling numbers for this election have to do with the reality that it wasn’t decided on the issues. Rather, because the nation is so messed up, most folks said…we need change. Obama and the Dems were the change, and so they won.

AGAIN, look at the issues. You will find that on most major issues a majority of Americans still hold a center-right position.

As was the case in 1992, the Dems can still function very well in such an environment…The key is not to be greedy. Obama has recognized this already…that’s why he’s not pushing for an immediate tax increase, but rather waiting on the issue.
AverageTodd Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Doesn’t the center define itself as the average? Isn’t it constantly redefining itself that way? There is no doubt that the country has a trajectory and, at least socially, the movement is always going to be to the left. Seems to me like consistently this has been the case. Change is always either progressive or reactionary and we tend to move forward, not backward.
Evil Twin Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Ed Smithe is simply deluded. On the issues America wants progressive taxation, they want cleaner air, water, and food. They don’t want to murder foreigners for sport. These are Democratic positions and are emphatically not the Republican positions.

Now, some may argue that I’m mischaracterizing the Republican positions of less regulation and “national defense”. But, come on, when “less regulation” means that you are denied the ability to breathe and drink – that’s not something the American people believe in. And while, sure, it was possible to gin up support for killing people when it could be argued (falsely) that this was in the interest of national security, now that people have had a chance to see the truth, they have rejected the Republican “kill, kill, kill, and when you’ve done that, kill some more” approach to foreign policy.

It is wrong to suggest there are two political parties in this country. There are the Democrats, and then there is a party helmed by people who are in no way interested in using the government in a positive manner. Given free rein, the Republicans actively used the government to undermine the people of the United States. The Republicans aren’t so much a political party as a criminal organization. That’s true now, it was true under Reagan, and it was true under Nixon. Essentially it has been for the past 50 years. It is time for them to go.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
DTM,

I disagree…It all depends on the phrasing of those questions.

People may be willing to purchase smaller automobiles for the purposes of fuel efficiency, but they’re not willing to risk their safety. People may be willing to find new sources of energy, but they haven’t given up on drilling for more oil, people might want to take action on global warming, but not if it means that they’ll have to pay more in gas and other taxes to do it. As for health care, people are willing to support it provided their taxes don’t go up and they don’t lose their employee sponsored health care.

The fact is, that like every poll of the last 25+ years, people want to do something for nothing. They want a free lunch. As soon as they start to feel the ramifications of those policies, they pull away. Look at drilling over the summer…were people running to their politicians and saying that we need to conserve more? No, they were asking why we weren’t drilling for more oil…That was an abrupt 180 degree shift from what the libs had been claiming for years. Even Nancy Pelosi pulled back on this stupid notion that there would be no drilling under any circumstances.

I’m not saying that you guys can’t go forward on some of this stuff, I’m just warning you that you’re totally misreading the average voter. This stuff costs money, money that you don’t have. All of the rich people in this country are not going to be able to afford to pay for this…which means it’s going to eventually fall on everyone else. That’s when you end up like the Republicans.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
I didn’t provide the results of the question about the Democrats taking over the White House in addition to Congress because Matt already did so in his blog post.

Then I’m not sure what point you think you were making at all.

As for your point, while it is true people aren’t happy with the job performance of Congress, it doesn’t automatically follow that they blame the Democrats more than the Republicans for its poor performance.

The polls clearly show that people strongly disapprove of Congress’s job performance. Congress is controlled by the Democrats. There’s no reason to make the perverse assumption that people blame the minority party in Congress more than the majority one for this sorry state of affairs.

In light of congress’s absymal job performance rating, the poll Matthew cites would seem to reflect hope rather than experience. It’s all tied up with the vastly inflated expectations so many people seem to have about our new President-elect.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Evil Twin,

Honestly, where do you live? Who do you speak to? You’re correct on the progressive taxation point, but your foreign policy points are crazy.

What happens with the next major terrorist attack?…I’m sure the American people will simply take a step back and say that the “kill kill kill” approach to foreign policy is not what were all about. Yes, for a population that doesn’t seem to have a problem with the Patriot Act, wiretapping, torture and taking away people’s liberties (Jose Padilla), they’ve really come over to your point of view.

As for cleaner air, water and food…I refer you to my 2:25 post.
John Emerson Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
You will find that on most major issues a majority of Americans still hold a center-right position.

You’re just making shit up, dude. Polls don’t find that.
24AheadDotCom Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
John Emerson Says: The reasons not to vote for Obama linked in #3 were presented to the American people during the election, and they were solidly rejected.

I have to agree. After all, the list is exactly what McCain was saying, plus I’m sure we all remember the 24/7 TV coverage making those same points. And, who can forget the entire week when millions of copies were air-dropped all over the U.S.?
Colatina Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
The idea floating around the media seems to be that unified government under Bush and Delay was really bad; therefore unified government under Obama and Pelosi will be bad in an equal and opposite way!

But perhaps most voters don’t think that way. Perhaps they don’t quite mind giving one party a chance to govern, and if they screw up, giving the other party a chance. That would seem to promote more accountability than having a practice where election after election each party gets to control a big chunk of the government, no matter how poorly it has performed recently.

The current preference for the Dems doesn’t mean we’re center left or center right. It means people are sick of one group of elites and they’re willing to give the other one a shot at it. Thankfully, despite their real disillusionment, it seems they are really willing to give Obama, Pelosi and Reid a chance.

Evil Twin, that’s some real crazy you’ve got going there…
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
John Emerson,

http://people-press.org/dataarchive/

Be sure to actually read the surveys. What you find might change your mind…or perhaps not. I’ve found some of that in this forum–emotion trumping reason.
Adam Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
I’m all in favor of intellectual honesty.

Every single person who claimed Obama’s policies were socialist and that he wants to spread the wealth around should now admit the election was a mandate for socialism and wealth redistribution. That’s how these things work, right? After all the weeks every Republican went on and on about socialism who would possibly vote for a socialist unless they…want socialism?!

Failing that, I’d take an admittance that they knew they were full of shit at the time and made an argument nobody outside their own echo chamber believed, and hence should now no longer be listened to on pretty much anything, least of all claims of a center-right country. I’m talking to a few people on this thread here. Anytime now.
Njorl Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Moreover, take a look at the dems that were elected. Not exactly the most progressive bunch of people that the party has ever fielded.

Which Democratic congressional delegations were further left? The Dixiecrat laden delegations that passed the New Deal and The Great Society? Every Democratically controlled Congress since then has thought of those programs as starting points to move left from, this one will be the same. Without a doubt, this is the most liberal congress ever. They almost certainly won’t make as much progress as the Congresses serving with Johnson and Roosevelt, but they will end up moving the country further left, simply by virtue of their starting point.
perfectlyGoodInk Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
The problem is that the two-party system leaves room for only one conservative party, and that party is corrupt and incompetent due to having so much power for so long. Of course the country will improve if you kick them out and put in a more competent party, regardless of that party’s ideology.

Polls of where people stand on the issues would be a little more telling.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
For example, on energy and environmental issues, the American people support raising fuel efficiency standards, finding new sources of energy, taking action on global warming even if countries like China and India do less, and adopting a cap-and-trade system. On health care, they think it is the government’s responsibility to make sure everyone has adequate health care, and they even think providing health care for all is more important than holding down taxes.

What people say they want in the abstract is not a reliable guide to what they will actually support when concrete policies are presented to them and the pros and cons are debated through the political process. “Universal health care” is a clear example. For decades, polls have found majority support for universal health care of various kinds, including single-payer UHC. But every time a concrete plan has been presented to the nation and subjected to media scrutiny and the political process, it has failed.

So, people may say they want, for example, “taking action on global warming”….until they find out how much it’s going to cost them in higher electric bills, higher food prices, higher gas prices, etc, at which point their support may evaporate.
Adam Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
“Polls of where people stand on the issues would be a little more telling.”

Certainly they would. Ed’s blatant cherrypicking aside (single-payer as evidence? Really?), Democrats actually have *more* support for their positions than voting reveals.

By noticable margins, the public wants the government to do more, supports progressive taxation and tax increases on the rich, supports at least some abortion rights, thinks the government should make sure everyone has access to health care, supports civil unions with the same benefits as marriage, supports increased fuel efficiency standards and efforts to stop global warming, etc etc. I could go on all day.

The problem is, of course, that people don’t vote on the issues all the time. Particularly Republicans. I recall one notable poll from this summer, which had a result of something like 60% of voters basing their vote on issues, among which Obama led 70/30, and 40% of voters basing their vote on character, among which McCain led 70/30.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Adam,

I think you’ve missed the point…They do believe that Obama is a socialist. The problem is, that in the emotional world that they live in, they can also claim on the one hand they continue to trust the American people, but on the other say that this was all of the mainstream media’s fault…that they fooled the American people into believing that McCain was a worse choice for the nation.

It’s all about rationalization…There’s wonderful book on this phenomena that I’ve always felt is rather applicable. It’s called “On Death and Dying” by Elisabeth Kubler Ross.
Tyro Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Mixner, like many conservative pseudo-libertarians, you conspicuously and petulantly ignore facts in order to continue to advocate for your fanatical fringe beliefs. The facts do not bear out your arguments. You can petulantly deny this all you want, but all you accomplish is the persistent and consistent making an ass of yourself. Americans want Democrats in charge and voted accordingly. You bleatings are just the impotent ramblings of a man who refuses to accept reality but demands attention. So hush, child, while adults are speaking. Glib comebacks and talking points do not make for a coherent argument.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
I referenced rather than repeated Matt’s polling data because I assumed any person of normal intelligence would understand that reference.

You made an assertion about public opinion regarding the White House and cited two polls to support it that say nothing whatsoever about the White House. It’s meaningless.

As for who the American people blame for Congress’s poor performance, I am making no assumption at all. Rather, I am pointing to the fact that people approve of the job being done by the Democratic leaders in Congress more than the job being done by the Republican leaders in Congress.

But they strongly disapprove of the job performance of the Democrat-controlled Congress overall, which means either that their opinions of congressional leaders are not representative of their opinions of congress overall, or that they are confused about what they believe, in which case none of these polls really tells us anything meaningful.
Ape Man Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Hmm, Godwin’s Law seems imminent on this thread, but I’d like to direct folks to my blog where I’ve put up a short discussion of this “Is America Center-Right?” question.

http://apshort.blogspot.com/2008/11/i-for-one-welcome-our-new-ant-overlords.html
pseudonymous in nc Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Let’s assume that people in general aren’t as dumb as Mixner. They’re probably vaguely aware of things they support coming out of the House, only to be held up in the Senate or overridden by the Bush veto. There’s your exegesis of dissatisfaction with Congress as an body and specific dissatisfaction towards the Republicans in Congress.

Of course, since Mixner wants to shit all over this thread, he’ll divert it towards the one-trick pony he’s been riding in similar threads since the election, and assert that black is white, up is down, and that the origin of all facts is Mixner’s lower intestine.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
No Adam, I don’t think you could all day. And if you can, I’d be pleased to prove you wrong. You’re correct on most, but again, it’s all about how you phrase the questions. People want something for nothing. As soon as nothing costs them, then they don’t want that something any more. Go ahead and tax carbon, the storm you’ll release on that one will be far worse that what that fool McCain had to deal with 2 weeks ago.

You all seem to like Obama correct? Then why is he pulling back on the tax issue? Is he not committed?…I mean that was one of his signature issues correct? Perhaps it’s because he doesn’t believe in blind faith.

Adam, do me a favor and start downloading these Pew surveys: http://people-press.org/dataarchive/

You might learn something.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Tyro, you’re an ignorant fool. Did I also mention that you’re petulant?
Evil Twin Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Ed Smithe, do you really think killing random foreigners is a solution to a terrorist attack? Hey, pop quiz for you: how many people have died on United States soil from terrorist attacks in the past five decades? Followup: How does that number compare to the average number of deaths in motor vehicle accidents in a year?

How did terrorizing the Iraqi people help eliminate terrorism?

Prior to Bush’s failure on 9/11/2001 what was the largest source of terrorism in the United States (hint, some call me Tim – and no, the answer is not not Monty Python)?

Colatina, care to elaborate?

Neither of you gave any real details for me to refute. Simply claiming “oh, you’re wrong” shows me that you have no rational arguments and just want to deny the obvious.

For three examples of my argument see these. Iraq – not a national security threat. Bush/Bush/Reagan/Nixon actively working to reward the wealthy, working to “deregulate” as a way to reward the wealthy and to the detriment of our nation. Is it just a coincidence that the worst financial meltdowns (S&L & sub-prime) happened under Republican leadership?

Please point to something positive the Republicans have done for the nation in the past 50 years. Something that fits with the definition of what you think Republican values should be. Reagan’s tax cuts for the wealthy offset by massive increases on the working class (along with a raft of backdoor taxes under other names like “user fees”) seem self-refuting, so I wouldn’t start there if I were you.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Let’s assume that people in general aren’t as dumb as Mixner. They’re probably vaguely aware of things they support coming out of the House, only to be held up in the Senate or overridden by the Bush veto.

You are a moron. If people thought Congress was producing “things they support” they wouldn’t disapprove of its job performance so overwhelmingly.
Adam Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Ed,

“You’re correct on most, but again, it’s all about how you phrase the questions. People want something for nothing.”

Most of the items I named don’t have anything to do with money. Of the ones that do, people don’t want something for nothing; they want something and they want to pay for it by taxing the rich. Why don’t you poll them listing what all we could buy by returning the capital gains tax rate back to what it was in the Reagan years (hint: a whole hell of a lot of stuff), and see if they support that tradeoff?

The only people who think of services in “something for nothing” terms are the ones who think taxes can’t be raised on millionaires. Like, oh, Republicans.
Adam Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
“You are a moron. If people thought Congress was producing “things they support” they wouldn’t disapprove of its job performance so overwhelmingly.”

Though you’re almost certainly being disingenuous, if it wasn’t clear Congress’s low approval rating is almost entirely due to its failure to produce things the public supports. Which, in turn, is almost entirely due to Bush vetoes and the unprecedented use of the filibuster. Hence the massive difference in approval for Democrats versus Republicans in Congress.
TheF79 Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
So either

A. The people of the US are confused and disapprove of the Democratic-led congress and accidentally voted a whole bunch more of Democrats into power

OR

B. The people of the US disapprove of congress because there are too many goddamned Republicans in Congress and therefore voted to have fewer goddamn Republicans in Congress.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
I personally agree the real evidence is to be found in what actual programs the American people support or don’t support. But on that issue, the American people support Social Security, Medicare, the EITC, SCHIP, public education, and so on.

But they don’t seem to support actual programs that provide universal health care, and there’s no clear evidence that they would support actual programs that take anything more than modest measures to improve fuel efficiency or fight global warming.

First, I provided the results of two polling questions, but also referenced two more results: the results Matt posted, and the results you posted.

No you didn’t do that. You made a claim about public opinion regarding the White House, said “Here is why…,” and cited two polls that say nothing whatsoever about the White House. And you didn’t even mention the poll Matt cited.

Second, again we don’t need to assume the American people are confused. Rather, it all makes perfect sense if you simply credit the American people with realizing that Congress has accomplished little over the last two years because of the combined effects of the filibuster and the veto.

No, that unsubstantiated hypothesis doesn’t make any sense at all. If people supported what Congress was doing and disapproved only of Bush vetos or filibustering, they wouldn’t disapprove of Congress’s job performance so strongly. Of all the bills considered by Congress since the Dems gained control, what proportion were killed by Republican filibuster?
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Now in the first case, the people to blame would obviously be the people IN CONGRESS who filibustered the bill.

But you have produced no evidence whatsoever that the public blames “the people IN CONGRESS who filibustered the bill” rather the Congress in total. The poll shows overwhelming public disapproval of Congress, period. Of all the bills considered by Congress since the Dems gained control, what proportion were killed by Republican filibuster?

And even in the second case, the people IN CONGRESS who voted against overriding the veto could be seen as sharing the blame with the President.

Of all the bills considered by Congress since the Dems gained control, what proportion were killed by insufficient Republican votes to override a presidential veto? Where is you E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E, DTM?
texasbob Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
I hate to say it, but how can anyone reasonably assert that the national Democratic leadership will be “left-center”??? In 2006 they remained well to the right of those who, in an effort to end the damned war, voted for them. They have stood in support of Bush policies, including torture and spying on Americans. They accept Mukasey just as they accepted Gonzalez. They have used their power in Congress for virtually nothing worthwhile or progressive. Under Ms. Pelosi’s leadership, they have steadfastly declined to impeach the war criminals in the executive branch and treated Kucinich like a pariah. They have shown themselves to be cowards of the first water. Now they are all rushing to see who can say the nicest thing about that filthy jerk Lieberman….Obama, B Clinton, Bayh, Dodd, Kennedy, Durbin, and who knows who else joined the fan club in the last hour. The majority of the electorate in 2008 might well have been left-center (I think it was, just as in 2006), but the creeps in charge of the Democratic Party are resolutely right-center. Given their druthers, they would probably be well to the right, but that wing of the asylum is already filled.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Oh man, so much to respond to.

Evil Twin, you’re just hopeless. I don’t believe that killing random foreigners is the solution. But the American people seem to when they’re scared. Have you thought about why the country didn’t seem to have a problem with us starting a war in Iraq? Have you thought about why no one blinks an eye when we blow up a wedding party or a house full of kids in Pakistan or Afghanistan? Have you thought through why no one gives a rats ass when we take an innocent person, through them into Guantanamo and torture them for years?

Adam, you too are hopel

Per my question in the previous forum, you must be a shade over 18…You’re idealistic and naiive. The people in this country don’t believe what you believe…especially when 3000 of their countrymen get snuffed out in an instant. Like you, I don’t like that one bit, but unlike you I don’t believe for one second that people are as thoughtful as you and I are on this issue.

As to what the Republicans did for the last 50 years, I don’t know, which administration would you like to begin with. Eisenhower ended Korea…a war that you fools started. Eisenhower also balanced the budget. Nixon ended the war in Vietnam, another war that you idiots started. Nixon also opened up China and started detente. Ford…well Ford was a good guy in a tough position. Reagan, grew the economy, helped create jobs and finished off the Soviet Union. Bush I ended the cold war without a shot and defeated Saddam Hussein with a coalition of nations from around the World. Bush the son was a moron.

As for the Dems, you see, I believe that they did some wonderful things too. I guess I’m not so jaded as to believe that for the last 50 years that only one party managed this country well.

Adam, you too are hopeless. You see, according to Pres-elect Obama, the rich aren’t simply the millionaires, they’re actually the ones that take home 250,000+ a year. Now, having lived 25 years in New York, I can tell you that a tax increase like that means that a family making 250,001 will pay more than 50% of their income to the man right off the bat. With what’s left over, they won’t be able to own a home, own a car and send their kids to a decent school. That’s not rich, that’s middle class. We can disagree over the issue of taxing hard work, but don’t try and sell me that this is all about people with so much money that they don’t know what to do with it. That just demonstrates how out of touch you are as well.

Finally, DTM…You have been a worthy debater sir. I think my response is again, phrasing…Put a number on health care and then we’ll see where people are on the issue. Providing health care to everyone isn’t cheap…Moreover there’s going to be a lot of folks that will find the service to be, well, let’s just say, substandard.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
please pardon the spelling and grammatical errors.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
DTM,

Agreed. It is very difficult to predict until it comes into practice. I think that my opinion is that the man isn’t going to do health care either cheaply or effectively (especially when it comes to serious diseases) based upon the experiences of every socialized program around the world. I don’t think that people will stand for the level of service that they receive in France, Britain or Canada. I may be wrong.
Adam Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Ed,

“I can tell you that a tax increase like that means that a family making 250,001 will pay more than 50% of their income to the man right off the bat. With what’s left over, they won’t be able to own a home, own a car and send their kids to a decent school. That’s not rich, that’s middle class.”

I’m sorry, but do you actually have any idea what the marginal tax rate is? It’s a tax on income *over* 250k. Your family goes from paying 36% on their extra $1 to paying 39%. All the rest of their income is untouched under Obama’s plan. Somehow, this extra 3 cents is going to eliminate their house, car, and private school.

And you wonder why Americans don’t agree with your party’s ideas on taxes.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
DTM,

On your first point, we shall have to wait and see if the American people support Obama’s health care and environmental programs.

Yes, we shall. So your assertion that public opinion is “aligned with Obama” on health care policy, global warming policy, etc. is either unsupported or irrelevant. Until this alleged opinion has been tested in the crucible of real-world politics on real-world policy proposals, it doesn’t mean anything. Given the long record of failure by proponents of “progressive” policies on health care and global warming, you probably shouldn’t get your hopes up.

On your third point, generally whether or not you believe the American people SHOULD be blaming Republican obstructionism for the perceived poor performance of Congress is beside the point. The question is rather whether they DO blame Republican obstructionism.

The polling data shows overwhelming disapproval of Democrat-controlled Congress, period. Not of “Republican obstructionism” or any of your other fantasies.
Adam Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
“The polling data shows overwhelming disapproval of Democrat-controlled Congress, period. Not of “Republican obstructionism” or any of your other fantasies.”

Once again, Mixner, we shall have to bludgeon you over the head with facts. Through complicated poll technology, we can in fact determine who in Congress is being blamed, as shown upthread:

“Do you approve or disapprove of the way the Democratic/Republican leaders in Congress are handling their job?”

Democratic leaders
Approve: 47%
Disapprove: 50%

Republican leaders
Approve: 24%
Disapprove: 73%
pseudonymous in nc Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
The polling data shows overwhelming disapproval of Democrat-controlled Congress, period.

Untrie. The polling data shows disapproval of Congress, period. The ‘Democrat-controlled’ is your own little editorial addition, perma-troll.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
DTM,

As for your calls for “evidence”, I already gave you polling data on how the American people feel about the Republicans responsible for organizing filibusters and failing to override vetoes, namely the Republican leadership in Congress.

The polls you cited say nothing whatsoever about the role, if any, of filibusters and override votes in the public’s overwhelming disapproval of the Democrat-controlled Congress. Do you have any evidence of that role? No. Do you have any evidence that most poll respondents even know what the filibuster is? No.

You’re just engaging in the same old wishful thinking and faith-based analysis that characterizes your approach to every issue: “It’s true because I WANT it to be true.”
pseudonymous in nc Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
If people thought Congress was producing “things they support” they wouldn’t disapprove of its job performance so overwhelmingly.

You are, of course, a pathetic, ignorant liar. One example of a proposal by Congressional Democrats that received wide-ranging support:

More than half of Americans back expansion of a state program that provides health-insurance coverage to poor children in the U.S., a new poll shows… A substantial minority of adults in the U.S. are unsure whether they want to see the program expanded, but those who favor expanding SCHIP outnumber opponents by a four-to-one margin (53% vs. 13%), according to The Wall Street Journal Online/Harris Interactive poll, conducted Aug. 16 to 20.

Of course, S-CHIP expansion was vetoed twice by Bush, and the override vote failed. Hence popular support for a change in who holds the veto power, and in the capabilities of Congressional Democrats to turn their proposals into law.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Once again, Mixner, we shall have to bludgeon you over the head with facts.

Yes, the irrelevant facts you cite there have all the power of a wet tissue.

But you did notice that the numbers you present show disapproval of both Republican and Democrat Congressional leaders, didn’t you?
Evil Twin Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Ed Smithe, just because the American people think killing random foreigners is a good idea doesn’t mean that Republicans are strong on national defense. If you believe that then you aren’t just hopelessly stupid, you are a danger to others.

As for your claims that Nixon ended the war in Vietnam and that “we” started it. First, fuck off. The notion that I am a Democrat comes from the fact that I recognize just how fucking evil the Republicans are. Voting for the much less evil party doesn’t mean I like them, it means that giving power to evil fucks is a terrible idea.

Continuing. The first “advisers” were sent by Eisenhower, but yes the same idiotic thinking that reached its apotheosis with Bush’s unprovoked invasion of Iraq infested the Kennedy Administration – but pointing to something bad Democrats did doesn’t demonstrate that the Republicans have done good. Secondly, Nixon didn’t end the war, the pull out occurred under Ford. Third, Cambodians might have a little to say about Nixon’s conduct of the war. As might the Laotians. In fact, it looks a hell of a lot like Nixon’s basic strategy was “kill, kill, kill, and when you are done, kill some more” without any consideration for national defense or the lives of the random foreigners he condemned to death. Finally, Nixon’s ending of the war isn’t really in keeping with the Republican tradition. Hell the “stab in the back” myth was used to help defeat Kerry. So on all counts you don’t get credit for Nixon and Vietnam – in fact Nixon and Vietnam underscores my point.

Now, it is true that Nixon opened up China and good for him and that’s a feather in the cap of the Republican Party, somewhat diminished by the red-baiting that preceded it and ensured that only a hard-liner like Nixon could do something like this without a massive smear campaign like Nixon used throughout his career.

As for Reagan’s growing the economy, he did it the old fashioned way – massive spending. And did he spend it on infrastructure or other things with tangible benefits? Not so much. And he couldn’t be bothered to pay for any of it. That was left to future generations (a tax increase on the unborn). And what did his brand of “growth” give us? That’s right the S&L crisis.

In the end, you are pretty much left with Eisenhower – whose Presidency ended in 1960 and so only barely makes my 50 year window (not coincidentally why I picked it – I was specifically excluding him).

Better luck next time.
pseudonymous in nc Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
The polls you cited say nothing whatsoever about the role, if any, of filibusters and override votes in the public’s overwhelming disapproval of the Democrat-controlled Congress.

Shorter Humpty-Mixner: I will misrepresent polls in order to accuse other people of misrepresenting polls, because regardless of what the polls actually asked, they mean what I say.

All the king’s horses and all the king’s men, couldn’t turn Mixner into any less of a fool.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Adam,

Now you’re just embarrassing yourself. What are income taxes in New York State? What is the sales tax? What are all of the other taxes that you have to pay? If you live in the City you have to pay an income tax…what does this all add up to?

Moreover, let’s say you buy a home in New York State? Do you have any idea of what property taxes cost?

Do you pay taxes yet?

The problem for Obama is going to be having to fend off people like you, the democrats that don’t think…they just react. You guys are no better than the neocons.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
You are, of course, a pathetic, ignorant liar.

You are, of course, a drooling, brain-dead idiot.

One example of a proposal by Congressional Democrats that received wide-ranging support:

Ha ha ha ha ha! One example, you say. So all it takes for bubbleandsqueak in nc to conclude that public disapproval of Congress is about the Republicans and not the Democrats is one example of majority public support for a Democrat proposal. In that case, since polls also show that majority public opinion favors making the 2001 Bush tax cuts permanent, we may conclude—from that one example, per pseudonutjob’s argument—that the opposite is also true, and that public disapproval of Congress is directed at the Democrats, not the GOP.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Evil Twin,

I don’t believe that the Republicans are currently better on national defense. You really need to quit putting words in my mouth to strengthen your defense. As to the American people, I stick to my previous point. You are young and naiive…and apparently totally incapable of responding to all of the things I pointed out that no one in this country besides you, I, a few folks on this forum, and a handful of dems and conservatives give a shit about.

As to you’re being a democrat, terribly sorry that I offended your sensibilities.

As to Vietnam, if you’re going to try and defend that hill, be my guest. The fact is that Nixon ended the war and began the pull out. I don’t really care what other nations do to themselves. If a bunch of folks get killed because they believe that a return to the year zero is a good thing, then there’s nothing I can do about it. You don’t like it? Pick up a gun and go fight in Sudan or Zimbabwe or some other backwards nation. It’s a free country and you’re allowed to care about things that don’t affect the national security interests of this nation. If you’re not prepared to do that, then shut the fuck up. The last thing we need is to send some poor father, son, daughter or wife to die for a bunch of folks that can’t get their shit together. Jesus, I thought that the left were the folks that cared about human beings…apparently not when they’re American.

With respect to Reagan…funny, for all the spending that he did in the defense sector he certainly created a lot of jobs outside of it. I guess the military-industrial complex really is all powerful.

So the way that I see it…and most historians do as well…there were a bunch of good things that came of Republicans managing the country. If you can’t see that then any reasonably minded individual would consider you a nut. And since you’re such a principled nut, I’ll look forward to your Obama critiques when he doesn’t pull out of Afghanistan and doesn’t do a God damn thing about the Sudan.
Evil Twin Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
The problem, Ed, is that Republicans like you – who simply parrot idiotic talking points instead of actually considering the issues, are still left defending the notion that the massive tax increase on the marginal dollars above $250k are what are killing those individuals.

And did you make it clear that you were talking about “all taxes?” in your original post? Not at all. Adam’s response was rational given your poor presentation of your argument. Oh, your childish “do you pay taxes?” doesn’t help either.

But really, you (once again) make the points of your opponents for them. By including all of the taxes in the tax burden you remind everyone that, in the United States, the tax burden is largely flat and that about the only mechanism for making them progressive is the income tax (and mostly the Federal Income Tax).
Jeremy Pober Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
If you try to take the whole “center-right country” question seriously, you’ll see that the whole question is ambiguous to the point of uselessness

Matt, I’m glad you’re finally on board with the incoherence thesis. I was worried for a while you were taking it seriously.
pseudonymous in nc Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
One more example than you, Humpty-Mixner.

There’s also the small fact — you might have missed it, since you live in a bubble — that Democrats increased their majorities in both houses in elections one week ago. That clearly endorses your editorial assertion that when people expressed disapproval of Congress, it was the Democratic leadership of Congress that earned their disapproval.

Oh, I’m sorry: it suggests the exact opposite. Once more, Mixner = FAIL Troll.
Evil Twin Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Ed, you haven’t really made any substantive points. Your defense of Nixon is hilarious, but only in a mordant way given the death toll of Nixon’s conduct of the war.

As for your incoherent rant intermixed with the Nixon hagiography, I have no idea what you were trying to say. You could try again, but I doubt it will make any more sense than your laughable Reagan worship. I will say this, I am willing to see force used when there are no other options to end real suffering. That wasn’t the case in Vietnam, it wasn’t the case in Cambodia, and it wasn’t the case in Iraq. In fact, in all of those cases Republicans used force to generate more suffering. This is an evil act.

I’m now officially bored of you. Your condescension would be annoying in someone with a firm grip on reality. From you it is rather like being lectured on astrophysics by a toddler – a particularly dim toddler. I understand you are a Republican chauvinist, but factually challenged assertions do not an argument make.
Mark D Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
The polls you cited say nothing whatsoever about the role, if any, of filibusters and override votes in the public’s overwhelming disapproval of the Democrat-controlled Congress. Do you have any evidence of that role? No. Do you have any evidence that most poll respondents even know what the filibuster is? No.

Yes, because I’m sure that 70%+ of Americans disapprove of Republicans in Congress, while only around 50% disapprove of Democrats in Congress, because … well, you never actually explain why.

It can only be because:

1. They don’t like the fact the GOP has blocked numerous bills, or failed to override vetoes.

2. They don’t like Republicans.

So which is it? Or do you have some other convoluted, not based in any reality whatsoever, reason for the difference in displeasure?
DG Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
I loved the link that 24 provided. I hadn’t seen a clearer distillation of the insanity of the right during the election, and the banter in the comments section was a really good laugh. Too bad I was so late to the party.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
“The problem, Ed, is that Republicans like you – who simply parrot idiotic talking points instead of actually considering the issues, are still left defending the notion that the massive tax increase on the marginal dollars above $250k are what are killing those individuals.”

Who was it again that brought up the Obama marginal rate talking point?

As for taxes, I’m sorry if I didn’t specify that I was speaking about…taxes. You see, REAL PEOPLE don’t give you a break down of what they pay to the feds, the state and their communities, they just tell you what they have to pay in TAXES. That’s why I asked you if you paid taxes, because I wanted to understand if you were simply ignorant or stupid. Because you answered that it was childish for me to do so, I’m going to assume the later for the time-being.

As for your last point, I guess you’re going to cede those other points that I raised. So let me get your logic straight…when it comes to the North East, we raise the middle classes taxes so that we can make the system more progressive so that we can help out the middle class? Again, the choice is yours…you’re either ignorant or stupid.

Finally, as to my Republican tendencies. Indeed I am a Republican, but unlike many republicans these days I am honest and approach issues empirically. I lived in New York, I paid taxes in New York, I saw my family pay taxes in New York…and let me tell you something, there wasn’t very much left under the Clinton tax policies. You on the other hand simply assume that you are correct when all of the evidence says that you’re not. You were wrong on this issue and you personally attacked me…That says a great deal about your ability to defend your positions.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Yes, because I’m sure that 70%+ of Americans disapprove of Republicans in Congress, while only around 50% disapprove of Democrats in Congress, because … well, you never actually explain why.

I wasn’t trying to explain why. And you haven’t produced any evidence to support your claim above, anyway. I was pointing out that the cited polls show public disapproval of both Republican congressional leaders and Democrat congressional leaders.

With respect to congressional Democrats overall, polls indicate that an overwhelming majority of Americans thinks their job performance is “poor” or only “fair.”

The Harris Poll. Sept. 17-21, 2008. N=1,015 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

“How would you rate the job Democrats in Congress are doing: excellent, pretty good, only fair, or poor?”

Excellent/Pretty Good: 21%
Only Fair/Poor: 75%

What’s more, the majority answering “Only Fair/Poor” has been getting bigger.
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Evil Twin,

It was good to speak to you. I’m sorry that you feel that way about my analysis. But I think that the record will demonstrate that you’re the nut and I’m not. I know that you may seem right in your nutty world, but that’s reality.

Yours,
Ed
Mark D Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
I was pointing out that the cited polls show public disapproval of both Republican congressional leaders and Democrat congressional leaders.

So you’re arguing with yourself, then, because no one ever suggested anything different.

In fact, your whole point (as far as anyone can tell) is that America is a center-right country because Americans disapprove of the Democratically-controlled Congress.

Yet more Americans disapprove of Republicans (by huge margins) than they do Democrats in Congress … and they keep voting in more Democrats … and they have put Democrats in 29 governors’ mansions … and they elected a Democratic president … and a majority support universal health care, keeping abortion legal, environmental protections, more stringent regulation of business, a less aggressive foreign policy … and a bunch of other liberal policy ideas.

And yet here you and others are, trying to make the claim that it’s a “center right” country.

It’s to the point where I’m starting to wonder of your mom fed you big bowls of lead paint chips for breakfast, because no one could intentionally be as dense as you are. It’s just not possible without some sort of clinical retardation.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Mark D,

Yet more Americans disapprove of Republicans (by huge margins) than they do Democrats in Congress

You’re just making stuff up as you go along, aren’t you? Admit it. Polling data shows virtually identical job approval ratings for congressional Democrats and congressional Republicans.

The Harris Poll. Sept. 17-21, 2008. N=1,015 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

“How would you rate the job Democrats in Congress are doing: excellent, pretty good, only fair, or poor?”

Excellent/Pretty Good: 21%
Only Fair/Poor: 75%

“How would you rate the job Republicans in Congress are doing: excellent, pretty good, only fair, or poor?”

Excellent/Pretty Good: 22%
Only Fair/Poor: 74%

It’s to the point where I’m starting to wonder of your mom fed you big bowls of lead paint chips for breakfast, because no one could intentionally be as dense as you are. It’s just not possible without some sort of clinical retardation.

I’m starting to wonder if you’ve escaped from a lunatic asylum.
pseudonymous in nc Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
The Harris Poll. Sept. 17-21, 2008.

Ah, September. I remember September. That was before the Democrats won the presidency and increased their majorities in both houses of Congress. Clearly a cherry-picked pre-election poll and What Mixner Says holds sway over the choices of all those voters.

You’d be much more amusing if you were to claim that trolling this blog means you have lots and lots of friends.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Ah, September. I remember September.

Do you? Perhaps you also remember the 2006 elections. That’s when the Democrats gained control of the House and Senate from the Republicans. That was two years ago. The Democrats have already controlled Congress for two years. Polls show that the job approval rating of Democrats in Congress has steadily declined during that time.

But of course the polls must be faked. Because Insane-In-NC doesn’t want to believe they’re true. Therefore, they’re not true.
pseudonymous in nc Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
But of course the polls must be faked.

You can’t stop putting words in other people’s mouths, can you?

Cherry-pick your one poll as you will, Mixie No-Friends, but you’re going to have trouble refuting last week’s election results. Elections have consequences, not least for trolls.
Evil Twin Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
I come back and see that Ed is so clueless that he thinks that defending RMN’s Vietnam record and failing to find even a single positive thing the Republicans did that was a) in line with their rhetoric, and b) good for the nation demonstrates that he is the rational one and I’m a nut for pointing out what a horrible record that is.

Funny.
Mixner Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Insane in nc,

Cherry-pick your one poll as you will

It’s not “one poll.” You don’t know what you’re talking about. You never know what you’re talking about. You’re an ignorant fool.
pseudonymous in nc Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Keep sputtering, Mixie No-Friends, while you try to explain just how dissatisfaction with Democrats leading Congress is expressed by the voters’ giving Democrats stronger congressional majorities and the presidency.

It’s not as if a Republican victory was going to get you laid for the first time, was it?
Ed Smithe Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Ah the child returns! Yes, insane for me to defend the good things that RMN did, totally insane.

And for funny, let me slap this one on you. The dirty little secret is that the people coming into power are more likely to listen to my views on things than yours! What a wacky world we live in where a nut like me has more influence than you!

Thanks for helping elect Obama…It’s going to do more for Republicans like me than you’ll ever know.
Evil Twin Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Right, the dimwitted buffoon pretends that the architect of the destruction of Cambodia, the guy who treasonous undermining of the Paris Peace talks extended the Vietnam war, should be credited with ending it. What kind of moron does this? Answer: a Republican with talking points and no sense of history.

Nixon is a hard place to start kid. Only the looniest of loons defend that scumbag. Everything he did is balanced against his rampant criminality and murderous foreign policy. You might be better off with Reagan, if you are willing to forget his treasonous negotiations with Iran to ensure the hostages came home on his inaugural day. And the less said about Reagan’s “economic miracle” which has never been paid for and which gave us the massive tax increases on the working class, the better (for you).

Nope, it’s pretty easy for me to defend the notion that the Republicans aren’t so much a political party as a criminal organization. Your defense of them, on the other hand, has been remarkably weak and has consisted of making nonsensical claims (like your sick Nixon joke) and name calling. But I guess that’s all you are capable of when defending rampant criminality disguised as a political party.
Mixner Says:
November 13th, 2008 at 11:24 am
DTM,

So we are doing older polls now?

No, we’re doing the polls since the Democrats gained control of Congress.

Those polls clearly show massive public disapproval of congressional Democrats..

Mixner correctly asserts that the job approval of the Democrats has gone down during the latest Congress.

Not only has it gone down, but it is overwhelmingly negative. The polls clearly show that the public thinks the Democrats have done a lousy job since they gained control of Congress.
Mixner Says:
November 13th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
And these polls on average show even more massive public disapproval of congressional Republicans.

No they don’t. And even if they did, that would be irrelevant to the point that the public thinks the Democrats in Congress have done a lousy job. The Democrats gained seats in Congress despite their job performance, not because of it.

The very low job approval ratings of congressional Democrats are further evidence that their congressional gains in this election had little or nothing to do with support for their policies and performance but were instead the result of such factors as Bush fatigue, the “coattail” effect of the Democrat presidential candidate, and the huge incumbency advantage the Democrats acquired from the retirement of so many Republican congressmen.
Mixner Says:
November 13th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
DTM,

Of course they do.

Of course they don’t.

We have four reasonably recent polls on the subject in this thread, CNN, Harris, R2K, and ABC/Post. In those four polls, comparing congressional Democratic and Republican disapproval/negative numbers, the Republicans are +23, -1, +9, +12. That is an average disapproval number of about 11 points higher for the Republicans.

As I showed above, the approval/disapproval ratings in the most recent Harris poll were virtually identical for congressional Democrats and congressional Republicans. In fact, the Democrats were a point lower than the Republicans on the “excellent/pretty good” rating. And the ratings for each party have been very similar going back at least a year.

Again, the public thinks the Republicans in Congress have done an even lousier job than the Democrats in Congress.

Again, no they don’t. Again, even if they had, it would be irrelevant to the point that the public thinks the Democrats have done a lousy job in Congress.

And this fact also blows your idiotic “it’s all about the filibuster/veto” hypothesis out of the water.
Mixner Says:
November 13th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
DTM,

So what happened to the other three polls in the average?

They’re irrelevant. The CNN poll provides precisely one comparative score prior to the election, and even that shows similar approval ratings for each party. The R2K poll also has only one comparative score, and it’s two months older than the most recent Harris finding. And the ABC News poll is also older. All of the other three polls in your alleged “average” also ask a vaguer question than the Harris poll.

Rather, you have only shown what happens if you cherrypick

I’m not cherry-picking anything. You are. Two of your polls only provide a single data point, and the other one is older and asks a vaguer question than the Harris poll that you’re ignoring.

And now you are cherrypicking time periods as well.

More nonsense. The more recent the poll result, the more relevant it is to voter behavior in last week’s election. The fact that Harris found very similar approval/disapproval ratings for each party for more than a year prior to the election, and virtually identical ratings in its most recent polling, is evidence that the congressional election results had little or nothing to do with public opinion regarding the congressional job performance of each party.

The fundamental fact that you’re desperately trying to ignore is that the public thinks the Democrats have done a lousy job in Congress. The Democrat gains in congress last week are therefore unlikely to have much to do with voter approval of Democrat policies or job performance, but are instead a consequence of the kind of demographic and political factors I described earlier.
Mixner Says:
November 13th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
On the contrary, since these polls make it abundantly clear that the public thinks the Democrats have done a lousy job in Congress, it’s you who’s fooling yourself with your “it’s all about filibusters and vetos” nonsense.
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