The Old College Try
Trouble for Chris Smith (R-NJ):
Smith’s daughter, who until recently lived with him in the family’s Herndon, Va., home, obtained in-state tuition privileges at a prestigious Virginia university — saving the Smiths $20,000 per year off the $29,000 tuition charged to out-of-state students.
But what Smith saved in cash could end up costing him politically – Democrats says the claim to Virginia residency shows that Smith is out of touch with the New Jersey constituents he’s supposed to represent.
I find this puzzling on several levels. Is UVA really so much more prestigious than Rutgers? Can it really be the case, as Politico says, that Smith “probably didn’t realize he was walking into a political minefield when his family requested a break on his daughter’s huge college bill?” It seems to me that it should be obvious that claiming residency in Virginia while representing New Jersey in congress would be a problem. It used to be routine for members of congress to move their families to DC and become full-time residents of the national capital region, but everyone knows that’s been too politically perilous to count on for a couple of decades now. Besides which, Smith’s district isn’t even a bad commute to DC in the scheme of things.
UPDATE: Okay, it seems that UVA really is more prestigious than Rutgers. I majored in philosophy in college, and Rutgers is a perennial top-five philosophy department so I guess my judgment is distorted.
72 Responses to “The Old College Try”
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October 21st, 2008 at 12:13 am
It probably is easier for Smith to take Amtrak to work from NJ. Herndon? How much time does Smith spend commuting every day the House is in session? I think the Philadelphia Inquirer might want to rethink that endorsement.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:15 am
Q: “Is UVA really so much more prestigious than Rutgers?”
A: Yes.
I suppose that from the heights of Harvard everything else looks like ants, but UVa has a national reputation, while Rutgers is a pretty good school that has almost no reputation out-of-state.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:25 am
It’s hard to see what the problem is here. I mean, of course there’s a political perception problem but where’s the unethical or immoral part of it? Congressmen get paid pretty well but a $20,000 discount every year for four or five years is still pretty big money. I think most middle class families would understand that. Maybe Chris Smith is a zillionaire but if not he ought to be able to send his kids to college without picking up a lot of debt. And his kids going to UVA doesn’t mean he hates New Jersey all of a sudden.
Personally I wonder why anyone would want to be a Jersey resident but I’ve only seen the areas near the turnpike, Newark, Camden, and Atlantic City so I’m speaking out of ignorance. I mean, there’s got to be better places in Jersey than that, right? Um, right?
October 21st, 2008 at 12:25 am
As a Virginia alum, I am somewhat offended.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:26 am
where i’m from, UVA is way more prestigious than rutgers. ted kennedy went to UVA; jackie aprile went to rutgers.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:28 am
Finally a political situation in which a secret family in another state would be beneficial.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:37 am
UVA is an elite public university, the Berkley of the east. Rutgers is where Jersey-ites who can’t get into Maryland go.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:38 am
Sad thing is I post this as a Terp.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:40 am
No one would be happier than this Vietnam resident to see Chris Smith, champion of out-of-touch revanchist South Vietnamese diehards and evangelical Christian weirdos, get kicked out of Congress. John McCain would probably be happy to see the back of him too. But somehow I think it’ll take more than a perfectly legitimate tuition break for his daughter to do it.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:42 am
OK, so we’ve settled that he will get sympathy from the substantial New Jersey UVA alum voting bloc.
From middle class Jersey residents who cannot pick and choose residency, but has got to stick with NJ state schools if they want in-state tuition … probably not so much.
How much legs the story has could hang on whether there are any votes he made against college affordability. If he has a vote that people will see as being against their kids college or their college being more affordable while he is jumping through what sounds like a loophole to save $20,000 himself, that will be very bad.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:50 am
UberMitch Says:
October 21st, 2008 at 12:37 am
UVA is an elite public university, the Berkley of the east.
Are you sure you aren’t overstating this? Berkley is like the MIT/UIUC of the west. (take that, Stanford!)
October 21st, 2008 at 12:50 am
Silly, stupid story. Not worth the effort of saying anything more.
October 21st, 2008 at 1:01 am
Three things:
1) As a native New Jerseyan, I can attest that UVa is absolutely more prestigious in New Jersey than Rutgers, even if that’s basically an unfounded reputation.
2) The implication that Maryland is better than Rutgers is an insult to all things American.
3, and for serious, now) Is this even legal? I’m fairly certain the Constitution states that you must be an Inhabitant of the state you are elected to represent. How can one be a resident of Virginia but an Inhabitant of New Jersey?
October 21st, 2008 at 1:07 am
This is a ridiculous story.
I love to see Republicans get dinged but really. There’s no story here.
1. For the purposes of in-state college residency, what’s relevant is the residency of the student not the parent. Millions of children around the US don’t live with one or the other (or both) parents. In this case the daughter lives in Virginia and attends HS in Virginia. She is by any definition a Virginian. And certainly meets the residency requirement for UVA.
2. By contrast, she would almost certainly be an out-of-state student in New Jersey. Makes no difference to New Jersey that her dad is a Congressman, they only care about where she resides.
October 21st, 2008 at 1:08 am
Amen. Google tells me that UVA is 23rd in U.S. News, while Rutgers is 64th. It also tells me that UVA accepts 35% of its applicants, while Rutgers accepts 56%.
October 21st, 2008 at 1:12 am
I suppose that from the heights of Harvard everything else looks like ants, but UVa has a national reputation, while Rutgers is a pretty good school that has almost no reputation out-of-state.
lol. my thoughts exactly.
October 21st, 2008 at 1:21 am
UVA might have a better reputation than Rutgers.
But the bottom line: The undergraduate school one attends is almost irrelevant?
October 21st, 2008 at 1:24 am
Ha, I really have no idea why a put a question mark at the end of my last statement.
October 21st, 2008 at 1:27 am
UVA definitely has a better overall national reputation than Rutgers. On the other hand, Rutgers has really outstanding departments in some areas (like theoretical physics).
October 21st, 2008 at 1:37 am
UVA is significantly better than Rutgers.
October 21st, 2008 at 1:38 am
Rutgers is a pretty good school that has almost no reputation out-of-state.
I beg to differ – I studied philosophy in Europe and in the area of philosophy of mind/language/cognitive science Jerry Fodor is one of the big guns and other Rutgers people like Ernest Lepore, Alvin Goldman and Stephen Stich are widely discussed.
October 21st, 2008 at 1:48 am
As a commonwealth taxpayer that lives out of state, I don’t have a problem with this if he’s filling out a 760 each year. A 760 PY is a little more problematic, but it depends how much NJ is splitting the take. If he’s not paying Va income tax, I’m pissed.
October 21st, 2008 at 1:58 am
Everyone who thinks this isn’t a big deal doesn’t understand NJ.
Smith does not represent a deep red Republican district. The district has lots of blue collar whites (Freehold, hometown of Bruce Springsteen, is in the district). But Smith keeps getting reelected because (they think) they can relate to him — union friendly, anti-abortion, strong on veterans issues, down to earth.
So, of course, voters in his district will understand that UVA is more prestigious than Rutgers, but that’s the problem. It undermines Smith’s image with his core constituency. If this story gets wide play, I’m sure the most common reaction in the district will be, “Who does he think he is? Rutgers isn’t good enough for his kid, huh?”
Smith will still win. The Democrats have tried for years to unseat him, but haven’t even gotten close in years. On top of his Reagan-Democrat friendly image, Smith also has a reputation for strong constituent service. This will hurt him, but it probably won’t be a fatal blow.
By the way, Smith could live in NJ and bunk in DC when Congress is in session. It’s not a long train ride from Union Station to Trenton, which is in his district. I don’t think any other member of the NJ congressional delegation has moved full time to Washington.
October 21st, 2008 at 2:31 am
Not to get too far into the weeds, here, but, as someone who’s taken classes at like 349 different colleges, I must say that there’s no more overrated place for undergraduates than the “elite” public university. You might get some star faculty members here and there, but the bulk of your undergraduate experience will be with profs and TAs much more concerned with their research and graduate students than teaching you. Big ass classes, man.
October 21st, 2008 at 2:35 am
UVA might not actually be better, but it definitely has a better reputation nationally.
Any NJ residents, why is NJ the only state that does not follow the university of state protocol. I don’t think half of the residents outside the Mid-Atlantic/NE region know Ruthers is a state school. It doesn’t help your reputation nationally when a sizable chunk of the population wonders why they have never heard of the University of New Jersey.
October 21st, 2008 at 2:37 am
I don’t really understand: did Smith declare himself or his wife to be Virginia residents, or was it just his daughter that declared herself (not her parents) to be a Virginia resident? The former could hurt, but if it’s the latter it’s not a story in the slightest. I went to a state school where I knew students from out of state, and I knew people who went off to Berkeley, and everyone looked into the requirements to declare themselves a citizen of the state they studied in, because of the tuition break. It’s completely standard for anyone who’s not rich, at least out West where almost all the good schools are public universities. If she’s in college, she’s likely legally an adult, in any case. Are politicians’ kids not allowed to move away now?
October 21st, 2008 at 2:42 am
While you are huffing and puffing about UVA, note that the story does not say UVA. It says “a prestigious Virginia university.” Or is UVA the only university with any prestige in Virginia?
October 21st, 2008 at 3:26 am
I find this puzzling on several levels. Is UVA really so much more prestigious than Rutgers?
Don’t you modify your posts when you say something idiotic? It’s a hell of a lot more prestigious. I go to Duke and still wish at times that I went to UVA instead. Rutgers, on the other hand…
October 21st, 2008 at 3:27 am
Any NJ residents, why is NJ the only state that does not follow the university of state protocol.
Its full name is “Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.” Not completely according to the norm, but at least they didn’t totally abandon the standard.
why they have never heard of the University of New Jersey
Princeton was called the College of New Jersey until 1896.
The real question is why on earth is the University of Colorado known as “CU” instead of “UC”?
October 21st, 2008 at 5:05 am
Frankly, one university is as good as the rest if you are more than five years out of it and any money spent in excess of 7500 a year on tuition and books is money pissed away when you really get to the bottom of things.
My state degree by correspondence and computer and credit by experience has landed me the same job at the same Beltway Bandit as all the VT and VA grads on the planet.
October 21st, 2008 at 6:15 am
Re Focus
<i?While you are huffing and puffing about UVA, note that the story does not say UVA. It says “a prestigious Virginia university.” Or is UVA the only university with any prestige in Virginia?
Depends on the major. If one is majoring in engineering, Virginia Polytechnic University in Blacksburg would be more prestigious.
October 21st, 2008 at 6:23 am
Novakant, philosophy is one of the other areas in which Rutgers has an outstanding department — one of the most well-respected in the country, and in fact more well-respected than Harvard’s. And Yglesias majored in philosophy.
I also think this is a pretty ridiculous story.
October 21st, 2008 at 6:45 am
Count me among those who find the pissing contest about the quality and reputation of university’s ridiculous. If the fit is right, a student can get an excellent education at any institution of higher learning — if it’s not, then it doesn’t matter if the student is at Harvard, UVA or Rutgers, the place just isn’t going to work for them.
I have this sneaking suspicion after observing Harvard grads for years that part of their need to put down educations got elsewhere is their own doubts about the actual quality of the education they got their. Like my own alma mater, Oxford, the hardest thing about Harvard is getting in. After that no one much cares what you do, pretty much everyone ‘passes’ at some level and despite how high or low your GPA (or exam result in the case of Oxford) you push the fact of your degree and the networks you made for the rest of your life. But any notion of being educated really isn’t part of that equation.
October 21st, 2008 at 7:18 am
It says “a prestigious Virginia university.” Or is UVA the only university with any prestige in Virginia?
Well, it has to be a state school, due to the tuition thing–can’t be William & Mary . . .
October 21st, 2008 at 7:40 am
William & Mary is a state school, Rea. (I can’t tell if you’re joking or not. If so, sorry.)
October 21st, 2008 at 7:59 am
If only New Jersey didn’t have such rigid requirements and stuff for colleges and universities, and people could just learn from vernacular and self-motivated individuals, the poor Congressman could have afforded to send his daughter to the local school / plumbing shop.
October 21st, 2008 at 8:02 am
Old Dominion is a state Uni too, rea.
Hrmm: What it says about Chris Smith is that after 28 years in Washington, he has a sense of entitlement, he thinks he’s entitled to things average folks aren’t entitled to and he ends up spending all of his life in Herndon, Va.,” said Steve D’Amico, spokesman for his Democratic opponent Joshua Zeitz, who is facing an incumbent who routinely wins with two-thirds of the vote.
Which is probably true enough.
Martin Gillespie, a Smith spokesman, said the application doesn’t violate any laws because Smith’s daughter does, in fact, live in Virginia. The in-state exemption, he added, was co-filed not by Smith but by his wife of 31 years, Marie, who works in Virginia as a non-resident and pays taxes in both Virginia and New Jersey.
So, Chris and Marie have two residences, and are registered as citizens of New Jersey. Meanwhile, the adult child lives fulltime in VA, and wanted the tuition break.
I’m not seeing the outrageous scandal here.
max
['Never trust the Politico!']
October 21st, 2008 at 8:41 am
Virginia requires not only in-state residence for the student but for at least one parent to work in the state and pay state taxes.
Virginia has odd rules due to the large number of military living in the state. An active duty military living in Virginia and whose child attends high school in Virginia would not be eligible for in-state tuition if the service member’sspouse did not work in Virginia and the servicemember claims another state for residence.
The odd rules in Virginia leads many children of military service members to not have a state where they can pay in-state tuition. Many military servicemembers claim Texas as their state of residence (for tax purposes) but Texas will not give in state tuition to someone who graduate high school outside of the state. But then the military service member’s children cannot qualify for in-state in Virginia because the parents did not pay taxes in Virginia.
It sounds like the Congressman was going the same thing that many military servicemembers do. Put the wife to work in Virginia who that the children can go to school in Virginia and pay in-state tuition.
October 21st, 2008 at 8:56 am
An active duty military living in Virginia and whose child attends high school in Virginia would not be eligible for in-state tuition if the service member’sspouse did not work in Virginia and the servicemember claims another state for residence.
That doesn’t sound very patriotic.
October 21st, 2008 at 9:04 am
Regarding one’s education, Gutenberg (and the internets even moreso) made school rankings irrelevant. One pays these preposterous fees to rub the elbows of people with whom one pays to rub elbows.
October 21st, 2008 at 9:18 am
You went to George Mason, didn’t you?
October 21st, 2008 at 9:21 am
Was this post designed to put your friends at each others’ throats?
October 21st, 2008 at 9:30 am
I thought they meant William & Mary, which academically is more prestigious than UVA (the Berkeley of the east? Seriously? UVA is more of an old-money/legacy admission/jock-type school that would seem to have nothing in common with UC-Berkeley.)
October 21st, 2008 at 9:35 am
When determining “residency” for tuition purposes, Virginia doesn’t care where the kid lives. All that matters is that at least one parent pays income tax (and preferably property tax) in Virginia. I was admitted “in-state” to “a prestigious Virginia university” from a high school in New York because my non-custodial parent lived in Virginia. It may not play well politically in New Jersey, but what the congressman and his wife did is totally legit from Virginia’s point of view.
And yes, Mr. Jefferson’s University is much more prestigious than Rutgers (and I would argue that VT and W&M are better schools as well).
October 21st, 2008 at 9:46 am
K
In looking at the rules, it also says that the parent who pays taxes in Virginia claims the child as a dependent.
The domicile of the parent who claims the minor as a dependent for federal and Virginia income tax purposes, currently and for the tax year prior to the date of alleged entitlement;
October 21st, 2008 at 9:53 am
I majored in philosophy in college, and Rutgers is a perennial top-five philosophy department so I guess my judgment is distorted.
Why do we have to explain to someone with an elite college education that sometimes there is a wide difference between the reputation of university’s undergraduate program and the reputation of individual departments for the purposes of graduate study? And didn’t you have the chance to look at your peers in high school and compare the ones who went to UVA vs. the ones who went to Rutgers?
Plenty of universities have top-notch reputations in specific fields, particularly when it comes to graduate study, but don’t have great reputations as undergraduate institutions. Rutgers qualifies as one of those “pretty good state school” universities. Doesn’t really have a national reputation, but it’s not the sort of place you’d actively avoid.
October 21st, 2008 at 9:53 am
Makes sense. I don’t remember (or never knew) all of my parents’ financial arrangements, but I think they each claimed one kid as a dependent for tax purposes and my Virginia parent always claimed me.
October 21st, 2008 at 10:01 am
Maybe in undergrad, UVA is better than Rutgers, but their History department Graduate programs are comparable (top 20).
October 21st, 2008 at 10:02 am
Re Matthew’s comment ” I majored in philosophy in college, and Rutgers is a perennial top-five philosophy department so I guess my judgment is distorted.”
————-
Socrates could have had a lot of fun sorting through these statements.
October 21st, 2008 at 10:09 am
The (non)issue here is Smith’s daughter’s residency, not Smith’s. Move along folks, nothing here to see . . .
October 21st, 2008 at 10:19 am
I see a bunch of my fellow Wahoos beat me to this thread. “Is UVa better than Rutgers?” Oh, Yggy, you couldn’t have known the hornets nest you were poking at there…
October 21st, 2008 at 10:22 am
Calling UVA the Berkley of the east isn’t far off at all. Current public university rankings: Berkley: #1, UVA: #2. And the two schools have been trading those spots back and forth pretty consistently for years.
October 21st, 2008 at 11:11 am
Kent 1:07.
You’re wrong. In Virginia, dependent kids are assigned the residency status of their parents. It is a big deal.
“A dependent student, defined in the statute as one who is claimed as a dependent by parents or legal guardians for income tax purposes or who receives substantial financial support from them, is presumed to have the same domicile as his or her parents. If both parents are domiciliaries of a state other than Virginia, the student is considered to be a non-Virginian, even though the family may be residing in Virginia.”
http://www.virginia.edu/undergradadmission/status.html
October 21st, 2008 at 11:43 am
I thought they meant William & Mary, which academically is more prestigious than UVA
This is a joke, right?
October 21st, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Undergrad – no, not a joke
October 21st, 2008 at 1:56 pm
I’m with lobstakilla,
W&M, the second oldest college in the US (next to Harvard) and the college the deadbeat Thomas Jefferson went to and never repaid his tuition so he founded his own university instead so his kids would have somewhere to go, is a more “prestigious” school than UVA, or at least more selective (harder to get into). UVA does have big school/big program advantages, but W&M has the tiny class sizes and unparalleled professor-student involvement UVA could never match.
To each his own, but for most of the programs you’d be nuts to choose going to UVA over W&M unless you place a higher emphasis on partying than getting the best education and future opportunities.
October 21st, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Nice try, W&M, but since Jefferson’s only surviving child(well, the white one – the black ones couldn’t get into UVa for another 140 years or so)was too old and the wrong sex to attend UVa by the time the 1st students were enrolled, that story doesn’t fly. Not to mention the fact that UVa, while larger than W&M, is pretty small for the flagship university. As much as it pains me to say it as a Wahoo, Tech is a great school – the rivalry is the typical preppy vs. aggie one you see all over. The one sided rivalry The Tribe has with us, well, that would take years to figure out. It typically goes like this – W&M student/alum “Hey, we’re smarter that the people at UVa. Why, I didn’t even apply because it sucks so much. Hey, look over here, can you hear me?” UVa student/alum – “Did you hear something? No? Hey, how bad will Tech beat us in football this year?”
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