Matthew Yglesias » For the Flip-Flop File

Oct 6th, 2008 at 5:35 pm

For the Flip-Flop File

I hadn’t realized that John McCain flip-flopped on the Law of the Sea Treaty. Add it to the file.

Comments
32

32 Responses to “For the Flip-Flop File”

joejoejoe Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
The Law of the Sea flip-flop is related to energy issues in the Arctic. A functioning Law of the Sea would render broad US claims to Arctic natural resources ridiculous as we’re, erm, not an Arctic country. The best US interests could hope for is an 8% slice that extends from Alaska. That’s not good enough for Big Oil, therefore it’s not good enough for the GOP and John McCain.
Don Williams Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
joejoejoe beat me to it.

Plus the melting of the Arctic is opening up a Northwest passage that would cut thousands of miles off the shipping routes between Europe and Asia. Plus give a fallback if someone blew up the Panama Canal or Suez Canals.

Canada threatened last year to enforce their “sovereignty” over this arising gold mine, but the Pentagon laughed at them.
H-Bob Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Hurricane Ike made Poseidon a “State Sponsor” of terrorism ! How can we enter into a treaty with Poseidon without any pre-conditions !
Don Williams Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Plus you need a sheltered transport corridor for the transport of Arctic Oil when you start drilling.

See http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-04-03-nwpassage-debate_x.htm
Don Williams Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
The Pentagon laughed at Canada because we’ve been sending nuclear submarines into the Arctic Ocean for decades.

The laughter kinda died down when Canada announced that it will be laying down a hydrophone net to surveil the new passage and will be deploying three new “armed” icebreakers.

Its kinda hard to avoid sonar surveillance and destroyers dropping depth charges if you are trapped in a narrow ice channel.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-04-03-nwpassage-debate_x.htm

Anybody up for invading Ontario?
24AheadDotCom Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
The good thing about the LOST is that about the only opposition comes from nuts. That makes it much easier for the nice people (like the U.N. and the dozens of corruptocracies that would benefit) to push their wonderful scheme designed to bring peace and joy and flowers to the world.
Kolohe Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
What’s hilarious about the link is that if you go to the PDF’s, he flipped-flopped *within the time* he took to fill out the survey.

and UNCLOS is a little more complex than what joejoejoe says. Right now, we *don’t* have broad claims to the arctic, and we’re saying *no one else does either*. Our claim may actually be enhanced, depending on where the continental shelf winds up which depends on the new method of measuring it. The real tricky part is that ridge which runs nearly right under the north pole, which Russia called dibs on last year. Everyone else says it BS, and the UNCLOS measurement will probably agree, but it is uncertain.

Its kinda hard to avoid sonar surveillance and destroyers dropping depth charges if you are trapped in a narrow ice channel.

And Mr Williams proves again that he really doesn’t have any idea of what he’s talking about.
Glaivester Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Like with immigration, I don’t see why this flip=flop ought to reassure those conservatives who distruct McCain. It isn’t genuine, so we have no reason to belive that he won’t sell us out when he comes to office. Of course, those who support LOST cannot trust him not to sell us out, so in the end no sane person should trust him.
Caitlyna Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
joejoejoe, you are wrong on US arctic interests and the LOS convention on two points:

First, the US oil industry is a strong supporter of the Convention, both for the Arctic and for other areas where the US has a large extended shelf.

Second, due to the particular nature of the continental margin north of Alaska, the US claim is not limited to the 350 mile limit that applies to some claims, so our potential claim could reach out as much as 600 miles or so. The advantage of the LOS Convention is that if we follow the rules, then every other party to the convention has to recognize our claim

Interestingly, the environmental community also supports the LOS Convention, so John McCain is in the position of siding with social conservatives against both the US energy industry and the environmental community.

And the joke is that the conservatives are convinced that after the election, McCain will flip back to support the convention as he did from 1998 to 2007.
joejoejoe Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Caitlyna – You are correct. I wrongly assumed that the social conservatives were having their passions stirred by GOP business interests. In this case the opposition is just pure black helicopter wingnuttery. I stand corrected.

From Rigzone, 9/24/07:

Described by many as a “constitution for the oceans,” the Law of the Sea provides for a comprehensive framework for navigating and managing the world’s oceans. It delineates offshore jurisdictions, including a 200-mile exclusive economic zone that countries can manage at their discretion, and outlines a comprehensive marine protection program with requirements for marine environmental assessments and enforcement of species protection measures. It would allow countries to apply to extract natural resources outside the 200-mile limit.

More than 150 nations, along with the European Commission, have ratified the Law of the Sea, which took effect in 1994. In the United States, mining interests, the oil and gas industry, the Navy, and the Defense and State departments have thrown their support to the treaty. Ratification requires approval by the Foreign Relations Committee, a floor vote and the signature of the president.

Still, conservative opposition to the treaty lingers, with critics arguing that the Law of the Sea would leave U.S. military operations vulnerable to oversight by an international tribunal created by the treaty — despite statements to the contrary by senior Bush administration officials who have said the treaty would ensure U.S. ships are free to navigate in international waters, including warships and military support ships (Greenwire, July 18).
Voice of Reason Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
After today’s vile, criminal, speeches, where McCain and Palin, in essence, called upon their supporters to assassinate Obama, I’m hoping more of you people are coming around to my point of view.

I hope and pray (yes, pray, literally) that, within 30 days of their landslide defeat, McCain is dead of cancer, and Palin dies a suicide. Whereupon they will both burn in the fires of hell for all eternity.
Don Williams Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Re Kolohe’s comment “Mr Williams proves again that he really doesn’t have any idea of what he’s talking about.”
————-
Well, I was plagarizing from my Tom Clancy novel up to the point where the Canadian ASW helicopter drops the torpedo onto the US sub –but then the fucking torpedo bounced off the fucking ice sheet. So I had to wing it.
Kolohe Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
but then the fucking torpedo bounced off the fucking ice sheet. So I had to wing it.

No, Mr Williams, you heard that torpedo hit that sub. And I was never here.
24AheadDotCom Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
~~ Helpful guide ~~

Above, I was being sarcastic.

joejoejoe was not being sarcastic.

joejoejoe thinks only those who believe in “black helicopter wingnuttery” don’t take complete comfort in “statements to the contrary by senior Bush administration officials”. Because, the history shows that the Bush admin can always be trusted to put U.S. interests first.

It’s odd how “liberals” tend to trust Bush admin officials only when they tell them what they want to hear (see, for instance, #7 here).
cmholm Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
The USN has (quietly) laughed at the Canadian claims to channels between the various islands of the Canadian Northwest Territories (and now Nunavut), because the Canadians didn’t have a technical means for enforcing their claim.

There were two reasons for the USN activity. One, to make sure the Russians weren’t hiding there; two, because the policy of the US is to push for and exercise access to all navigable oceanic waters. Unfortunately, by weakening the Canadian claim, it opened these areas for use by others. But, since the DoD operates on the assumption that it will maintain and exercise the ability to limit any adversary’s freedom of action, this was considered a feature, not a bug.

Now that increasingly ice-free waters renders the sovereignty of northern Canada and adjacent waters at bit more than an academic issue, the Canadian Armed Forces have been opening full time facilities there that don’t have anything to do with NORAD. One of the few areas in the budget where the CAF is getting more goodies and infrastructure are to expand sovereignty patrols up north.
joejoejoe Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
24AheadDotCom – The oil companies are still acting in their own self interest. My first quick reading of this treaty was that energy interests were ginning up opposition. In fact I had that backwards and I acknowledged my mistake.

If you are linking to Ed Meese’s opposition to the Law of the Sea Treaty as evidence that it’s not only nuts that oppose it I’ve got a great joke about a penguin eating ice cream and a blown seal that both you and Ed Meese would love.
Ringo Meza Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Hi Matt,

I was just hoping to get your sense of the potential impact that Rezko’s confessions may have on the race…

Huh?

Rezko who?

Confessions what?

(tee-hee-hee-hee, suppressed giggle)

Check it out, and remember, don’t hate the playa, hate the game:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/ap_on_re_us/fundraiser_trial

This is the equivalent of a stripper jumping out of a big Happy October cake!

Oh, one more thing about the Ayers scandal. Most Americans will be thinking, “Wait, are any of my friends terrorists?”

I don’t know about you, but none of my friends have planted IEDs at the Pentagon and the Congress. I guess that makes me less glamorous (and less craven) than Barack Obama.

Yes indeed, Who ‘is’ Barack Obama? And please don’t parse words on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.
24AheadDotCom Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
joejoejoe: let me explain my first comment to you. Most of the opposition to LOST comes from competely sane archconservatives like PhyllisSchafly. That makes it easy for the corrupt forces pushing LOST – including Bush and the UN – to marginalize the opposition; right-leaning hacks are going to side with Bush and not PhyllisSchafly.

And, that allows poor excuses for pundits like MattY to avoid spending even a second thinking about this: if PhyllisSchafly is against something, they’re for it. They don’t realize they’re being useful idiots for Bush and his buddies, and even if they did they’d rather side with Bush than PhyllisSchafly et al. I’m not just making that up: MattY’s discussion of other sovereignty-leeching topics shows that’s exactly how he operates. Others falling into that same trap include practically every leftie I’ve seen discuss this issue.
LarryM Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Ringo,
Yawn. When, and if, Rezko spills his guts against a variety of corrupt Illinois politicians, it will be at best a very minor embarrassment for Obama, who likely, give his roots, will have some fairly minor connections with one or two of the dirty pols. I will resist another opportunity to compare this to McCain’s corrupt connection Charles Keating.

Oh, you mean you expect Rezko to name Obama as one of those dirty pols? Chortle. It’s far, far, more likely that the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus AND a pony will jump out of that cake you refer to.

I would love to metaphorically grind your nose in the dirt the day after the election, when that corrupt, cowardly, senile, madman and his mentally deficient amoral sidekick get beaten by 10 points and 200 electoral votes. Sadly I expect that you will be too cowardly to visit here after the debacle. But let me give you one piece of advice – from what I hear, suicide, done right, really IS painless, you evil cretin.
LarryM Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Just for any of you who didn’t bother to click through, the linked article doesn’t give any support to Ringo’s deranged fantasy. It does suggest that Rezko is getting ready to sing, but doesn’t suggest or imply for a second that Obama is a target of the investigation. It’s notable in that regard that no one has suggested, outside the wingnutoshere, any kind of corruption involving Obama and Rezko. It’s a non-issue.

The article does restate the totally innocent, and relatively minor links between Rezko and Obama that everyone knows about and no one cares about.
CSI Says:
October 7th, 2008 at 12:17 am
Neocons hate this treaty because it involves actually compromising with other countries, something to which they are opposed to on principle. Is McCain trying to pander to their interests?
suez canal Says:
December 5th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
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For the Flip-Flop File

32 Responses to “For the Flip-Flop File”

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