Oct 2nd, 2008 at 11:16 pm
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October 2nd, 2008 at 11:24 pm
STOP THE PRESSES!
The crew at the Corner think Sarah Palin won.
October 2nd, 2008 at 11:27 pm
This poll is biased. The people who would vote for Palin are too busy filling out their applications for the Team of Mavericks.
October 2nd, 2008 at 11:34 pm
So are you suggesting we don’t want Gomer Pyle as our VP? Inconceivable.
October 2nd, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Who Did the Best Job In the Debate?
Elizabeth May, Canadian Green Party.
(our leader’s debate was at the same time as your vice-presidential. 5-party free for all, serious discussion of the issues in minute detail, angry but civil, and always articulate. seriously, you missed out)
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:08 am
Instead of the famous “would you want to have a beer with” a candidate, how about a question about “would you want to be stuck next to this person on a cross-country flight. Out of Newark. That was delayed.”
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:10 am
Also, her expectations I think were actually higher than Biden. She had to show substance, and she just gave snark. I’d be like having E.D. Hill or Steve Doocy as VP with her in the Naval O.
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:13 am
This can only be one of those debates that the right will “win” after a couple days of mau-mauing.
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:18 am
why does the corner think this debate will provide no fodder for fey? the first skit was based on her acceptance speech at the rnc. Which she supposedly knocked out of the park.
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:19 am
That 36% could think someone who can’t name a newspaper she reads can win a debate damns this debate process.
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:21 am
Everyone at dkos is harping on how Biden’s choked-up moment is the highlight of the debate. I don’t really think that’s the case. I think it will be viewed like Hillary Clinton’s moment in New Hampshire. The McCain campaign will remind everyone of how Hillary was heckled about it, and how sexist is it to praise Biden over something similar.
I should note that I think Biden’s moment was sincere; it was certainly more personal than Hillary’s New Hampshire tear, and thus more plausible. Hillary was also losing her ass after Iowa and the New Hampshire polling reflected it; Obama and Biden are trouncing McCain right now so it doesn’t smack of desperation to me.
But that’s not how it will be spun and it’s not how it will age. It will get overplayed this weekend and people will get cynical about it. Then we’ll hit the debate on Tuesday.
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:34 am
Palin speaking to Biden: “I have great respect for your family also and the honor that you show our military. Barack Obama though, another story there.”
Can we finally admit that the Republicans are questioning Obama’s patriotism?
Also:
1) She started with fear about the economy, and ended with fear about losing our freedom (to whom was unclear). Maybe that’s working for undecided voters, but I found it depressing and decidedly un-Reagan-like.
2) She has latched onto McCain’s theory that all of our problems are due to moral failings that the government must correct. Not institutional failings, not bad incentives (for lenders who could offload bad credit risks into securities) or lack of accountability (for credit rating agencies that issue poorly-researched ratings and say they have no responsibility, they’re just stating an opinion). No, it’s greed and corruption, and apparently McCain/ Palin can make Wall Streeters into angels, just like McCain-Feingold was mysteriously going to do for politicians.
George Will has been annoyed by this self-righteous tendency in McCain for a long time, and McCain’s cockamamie rhetoric about the economic crisis is making me understand why.
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:34 am
It will get overplayed this weekend and people will get cynical about it.
Not necessarily. Saturday brings SNL, and Tina Fey doing her damndest to ensure she doesn’t have to wear the fucking up-do after mid-November. And when the Sunday shows happen, Obama will be in North Carolina. A state that McCain now has to defend, having given up on Michigan.
You’re going to have Smithers-Palin mashups by tomorrow. Gee whiz, you betcha!
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:41 am
The remarkable thing– and maybe it’s the legacy of Karl Rove– is that the “base” sees itself as sufficient to win elections. So raw, directed appeal to the hardcore conservatives, heavy on scorn and bereft of solutions, is seen as a great success by most Republicans.
They’re “cheering for her” (cf. Douthat and others), they see that she remains a theoretically viable candidate, maybe if only in four years, and they claim success tonight. But they’re not one inch closer to winning this election than they were this morning. And when the unemployment numbers come out in the morning, they may have lost even more ground.
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:44 am
Maybe the economic meltdown is making people aware that no one they feel comfortable drinking a beer or burping their babies with can explain to them wtf is going on. Will Rogers was brilliant enough to speak truth to power in a populist and folksy voice, but what passes for folksiness these days is just mugging for a sentimental audience.
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:45 am
Another Poll
Biden 27% – 52,268
Palin 71% – 136,191
Neither 2% – 3,339
Drudge.
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:51 am
So no one else has to waste their time looking for Lem’s source on Drudge: that tally is the survey of visitors to the Drudge Report. It means nothing.
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:51 am
What MattY is failing to tell you is that the CNN poll was heavily weighted one way. If you read the fine print, you’ll see that 78% of those polled are marked as “completely uncommitted voters who are actually paid members of the BHO campaign hand selected by a CNN producer for ‘balance’.”
I kid!
However, perhaps someone more familiar with the topic would care to confirm or deny the Biden gaffe mentioned in the update here. If correct, I’m sure CNN will be all over it.
October 3rd, 2008 at 12:53 am
Wait – your kidding me. Drudge has Palin winning. What about Fox News?
October 3rd, 2008 at 1:00 am
Here’s the quote, from the NY Times transcript:
“There have been 7,000 madrasses built along that border. We should be helping them build schools to compete for those hearts and minds of the people in the region so that we’re actually able to take on terrorism and by the way, that’s where bin Laden lives and we will go at him if we have actually intelligence.”
And here’s the linked comment: “Biden implies that madrassas aren’t schools. I’m sure he knows, but…”
It’s a stretch to say that Biden is referring to “schools” and “madrassas” as exclusive sets. It sounds more like he was distinguishing “madrassas” from “schools [that we are] helping them build.” Maybe it’ll be merit a half-hour on Limbaugh’s show, or Bill O’Reilly will hype it up, but I don’t see this one being significant.
October 3rd, 2008 at 1:15 am
One gaffe Biden made was referring to the Executive as being in Article I of the Constitution: it’s not. Article I establishes Congress, Article II the Executive, and Article III the judiciary. It’s why the conservatives are crazy with their worship of the all-powerful “commander-in-chief.” The legislative branch comes first.
But Biden’s point remains: the office of the VP is in Article II, the Executive Branch. Cheney is crazy.
October 3rd, 2008 at 1:18 am
DG: I was referring to the other Biden gaffe at that page, the one in the update, the one about NATO.
October 3rd, 2008 at 1:38 am
No one really gives a shit at all what you think, LoneWacko.
I’m not clicking on the thing, but have fun pretending that you are anything worth considering in the American political body. After November, it might be worth a clown show to see you trying to rebuild the militia movement or whatever you are going to do after you get done fluffing McCain.
October 3rd, 2008 at 2:05 am
the drudge poll has palin winning????? I’m SHOCKED, SHOCKED I tell you.
October 3rd, 2008 at 2:17 am
The idea that the Vice President is a member of the legislative branch is not a crazy idea made up by Cheney. It was the dominant constitutional theory until quite recently. Vice Presidents were not allowed in cabinet meetings until the early 20th century (I think Coolidge was the first to regularly attend cabinet meetings) for that very reason – the VP was not a member of the executive branch, much less a member of the cabinet, but was an official, elected alongside the president, obviously, who served in the capacity of presiding officer of the upper house.
Now, this is not to say that this argument is any less ridiculous. What responsibilities the vice president is given in modern administrations does not come through his legislative role, but through the president giving him authority within the Executive Office of the President. The idea that these activities of the Vice President, which are not constitutional at all, but are merely delegated by the president and can be given and taken away at will, in the same way that he can give or take away authority from the National Security Adviser or the Communications Director, are not a part of the executive branch is patently absurd.
October 3rd, 2008 at 2:48 am
What MattY isn’t telling you is that Biden, Palin, Gwen Ifill, everyone polled tonight and everyone ever polled is an AgentOfAForeignGovernment. So does Matt. Look at that last name. You deny this because you all work for the MexicanGovernment too, as do the heads of all the networks, which is why I don’t have a three-hour show in primetime. Now click on the fucking link: I’m going to stay up until 3am refreshing my stats to see if I make it past twelve visitors today.
October 3rd, 2008 at 3:12 am
You’d think a political blog’s traffic would increase getting closer to the election, but that would be assuming that anyone gives a shit what you have to say:
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/lonewacko.com
October 3rd, 2008 at 4:02 am
Cincinnati, Ohio Barstool Poll: Biden 60%; Palin 40%.
(Like, totally nonscientific polling of bar customers this evening.)
Seems like people like both Biden and Palin, but they trust Biden and only kinda like Palin.
Most common sentiment: “She had totally jumped the shark with that folksy crap. Make her stop.”
October 3rd, 2008 at 4:10 am
Would only add that the big joke at my workplace tonight was “I sure as heck want change, gosh darn it!”
The pundits were impressed with Palin early in the debate, but she didn’t wear well with us gosh-darned regular middle-class golly-gee folk. That’s really all that needs to be said.
October 3rd, 2008 at 5:47 am
Does Palin know Biden’s first wife died? His little “event” came not to long after Palin made a comment about “Her reward is in heaven”, which either shows Palin didn’t know Biden’s wife died or was a directed attack against Biden.
Palin really came across as that Disney mom who got picked to be VP. “Golly, me, VP? Whoda thunk it?”
I wish Bill Hicks was here.
October 3rd, 2008 at 6:39 am
“Everyone at dkos is harping on how Biden’s choked-up moment is the highlight of the debate. I don’t really think that’s the case. I think it will be viewed like Hillary Clinton’s moment in New Hampshire. The McCain campaign will remind everyone of how Hillary was heckled about it, and how sexist is it to praise Biden over something similar. ”
That would invite huge backlash, since Hillary was crying over losing a campaign, while Biden was crying over losing a wife and a baby. Lindsey Graham already tried to use this tragedy as a slap once when the media was focusing on Sarah Palin’s kids. Then we got another dig from Palin during the debate. I’m glad Biden brought up his loss and truly made people understand that losing a partner and a child is not just political fodder, it’s genuine agony you never really get over.
October 3rd, 2008 at 6:46 am
I think DG is right, and I would emphasize that if the Republican base ends up thinking that this performance makes Palin a legitimate candidate for the Presidency in four years, then it was the most successful VP debate the Democrats have ever had.
October 3rd, 2008 at 7:22 am
Although I don’t doubt the debate was watched by many people last night the truth is that the debate runs twice – Live and then again through interpretations on the morning talk shows.
The CNN poll tells us a lot about the opinion of those who saw the debate and by that measure you can conclude “I guess there aren’t that many folksy voters out there.” But this morning even CNN is playing-up Palin’s folksy appeal and suggesting that she won the debate, with out informing the morning viewers what their own poll showed based on those who viewed the debate.
October 3rd, 2008 at 7:30 am
You mean it won’t convince a lot of independent voters when she suggested that Biden & Obama wanted to ‘wave a white flag of surrender’ in Iraq?
October 3rd, 2008 at 7:36 am
Biden debated an iPod yesterday. It is hard not to win.
“Domo Arigato Mr Roboto!”
October 3rd, 2008 at 7:38 am
You can’t put air back into a burst balloon.
October 3rd, 2008 at 7:41 am
Thomas Frank,
I agree about the importance of secondhand effects, but I don’t think those are solely in the control of the morning shows: the secondhand effects are also created through word-of-mouth, people seeing clips, and so on. And the bottomline is that I don’t think the media can make Palin have “folksy appeal” unless people actually find her folksiness appealing.
And in fact, speaking of secondhand effects, I think a good bet is that SNL is going to highlight her folksiness.
October 3rd, 2008 at 8:02 am
they see that she remains a theoretically viable candidate, maybe if only in four years
Palin has the shelf life of a Chocolate Easter bunny. At 47, she’s already at the outside of her youthful beauty — profile shots show the beginnings of a little neck wattle and that round face of her is gonna have beagle jowls in a couple of years. Plus, her folksy-act is clearly just that: an act. It isn’t part of her the way that Reagan had charm and it irritates more people than it attracts. The fading beauty would be irrelevant if it hadn’t been at the core of why we’re stuck with Palin and more solid Republican women candidates were passed by.
October 3rd, 2008 at 8:30 am
I can’t wait to see the MSM headlines on Google News page this morning.
Every single one of them will have Palin beating or matching Biden – just like every one of them after the last debate had McCain and Obama neck and neck.
And Matt won’t touch that fact with a ten foot pole. He’ll resort to his usual snark about Palin, despite the fact that it’s all irrelevant if the MSM is handing McCain the election.
In fact, here it is right now at 5:30 Pacific Time:
Boston Globe: No fatal slips as Biden, Palin tussle for the title of reformer
CNN: Analysis: Palin gets back on track, but Biden wins debate
Detroit Free Press: Biden, Palin hold their own in VP debate
Associated Press: Analysis: Palin eases the hurt in McCain-land
Newsday: Palin recaptures the magic, but will it work?
Chicago Sun Times: Palin eases GOP jitters, you betcha
San Francisco Chronicle: Pundits agree debate not election game-changer
Los Angeles Times: All eyes were on Palin, but opinions aren’t uniform
Los Angeles Times: Palin and Biden spar in VP debate but neither deals a knockout
Even Joe Klein at Time: Klein: Palin Was Fine, But This Debate Was No Contest
New York Daily News: Sarah Palin holds her own against Joe Biden, but can’t help McCain
Houston Chronicle: Debate did little to sway voters
Reuters: Winking Palin survives debate with folksy style
Red Orbit: Palin, Biden Sidestep Predicted Missteps
You’ll notice none of them really light into Palin at all or suggest that she seriously lost. Even the ones who acknowledge she lost stress that she didn’t screw up badly.
Once again, the debate will be ancient history by Monday and have zero effect on the election. Which means Obama still doesn’t have more than a few points lead on McCain – while McCain – or Bush or Cheney – has some sort of “October Surprise” in store for Obama.
October 3rd, 2008 at 8:36 am
Re John’s comment “the VP was not a member of the executive branch, much less a member of the cabinet, but was an official, elected alongside the president, obviously, who served in the capacity of presiding officer of the upper house.”
—————
Bullshit.
1)Impeachments of the President are tried in the Senate with the Chief Justice of The Supreme Court presiding. That doesn’t mean that the Chief Justice is a member of the Legislative Branch.
2) If you examine the Constitution, you see that the Founders were fairly well-organized — an attempt to make sure things didn’t fall through the crack or were left hanging.
The Office of Vice President is DEFINED in Article II, hence it is part of the Executive Branch. The Vice President is elected by the same Electors who chose the President and originally was merely the second place runner up. I.e, You could have a Democrat President and Republican Vice President. The 12 Amendment changed things.
3) The PRIMARY purpose of the VIce President is to take over as President in the event something kills or incapicitates the President. That obviously is an Executive function.
4) WHY are John Yoo, Gonzales, and David Addington still
licensed to practice law? Weren’t they sworn to uphold the Constitution — NOT to wipe their ass on it?
October 3rd, 2008 at 8:45 am
Palin is the epitome of the two-faced , deceitful Republican who serves wealthy agenda while posing as the common man.
Biden had several opportunities last night to destroy Palin –and made the mistake of passing on them. Example 1: Palin constantly harping on Biden being “partisan” whenever Biden tried to point out the Truth about McCain’s past record. Palin then claimed she and McCain would work with Democrats to get things done — yet she missed NO opportunity to stick the knife every other minute.
Biden should have pointed this out — and should have also noted that Palin’s “bipartisanship” in Alaska consisted of firing the Head of State Police when the Head refused to fired Palin’s brother-in-law, Palin promising the Legislature to cooperate with their investigation, and Palin then stonewalling like crazy –with her, Todd, and her aides refusing to testify under oath.
Yes, this deceitful bitch is a hick. But Dick Cheney was a hick from Wyoming once –because he took on the attitude, mannerisms, powers, and values of a European royal Duke.
Biden should have had the courage to destroy Palin last night — in the coming decades, Democrats will greatly regret that he did not.
Not because Palin is a great politician — she’s not –but because she has no scruples and no love of country, only a low animal amoral cunning.
October 3rd, 2008 at 8:47 am
CORRECTION to 40 above: should read “BEFORE he took on the attitude, mannerisms, powers, and values of a European royal Duke. “
October 3rd, 2008 at 8:53 am
Palin could be a quite powerful right wing evangelical leader. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s where she goes.
She gets to be powerful, vindictive, condemning, and yet there are no objective standards or voter reviews — just money, devotion, fans, and hysterically right wing movements.
Not outside the traditional areas of such movements — predominantly the South and less populous rural states. But still.
October 3rd, 2008 at 8:55 am
Jeffrey Davis writes:
No, Palin is only 44, born Feb.11, 1964, which I know since it makes her a month older than my wife. So I’ll going to have to wait at least another four years to have a President or VP younger than my wife or me.
October 3rd, 2008 at 9:11 am
Agree – no backlash. It’s not like Biden was waiting for the moment to pivot into a prepared talking point about his tragedy. (Unlike Palin who pivoted off every question into unrelated preprepared astroturf.)
He was responding directly to a snarky comment she made about his supposed lack of understanding what it’s like to be a regular person trying to raise a family. I don’t see anyone having the balls to say that was crocodile tears.
October 3rd, 2008 at 9:21 am
Yes, it’s always possible that Cheney et co. will pull out an “October Surprise,” but so far the GOP’s campaign surprises have not only not paid off, but have hurt McCain.
Just because everyone doesn’t agree that an imminent October Surprise will arise and unalterably blow the Democrats out of the water doesn’t make them naive or less revolutionary than thou. Cut it out.
October 3rd, 2008 at 9:22 am
There’s a confusion about the Vice Presidency due to Cheney and Bush’s relationship. The office hasn’t changed simply because Bush affords Cheney quite a bit of power. That’s extra-legal and simply a function of whatever relationship the two men have. The next VP won’t suddenly be able to have a separate intelligence agency or bully members of Congress due to Cheney’s personal power. That aspect is purely ephemeral. The office hasn’t expanded or contracted an iota due to Cheney’s snarling. (Similarly, Congress would have been perfectly within its powers to impeach Bush for the trying to change legislation with his extra-legal signing statements. That they didn’t is to their lasting shame, but it hasn’t made signing statements anything more than a vanity gesture.)
October 3rd, 2008 at 1:09 pm
The reason I know Hack is wrong is that McCain isn’t acting like a man with a ten-point ace in the hole. Rather, every time he gets down a couple points, he clearly panics and goes for the big gesture (and in each case so far, I think in the long run the gesture backfired). Heck, just pulling out of Michigan is enough evidence on this issue–that’s not something you would do if you anticipated a massive across-the-board shift in the polls sometime in October.
October 3rd, 2008 at 7:18 pm
McCain isn’t controlling the “October Surprise” – Bush and Cheney are. McCain has to continue to act like it’s not in the bag, simply because even with such a surprise, there’s no GUARANTEE he will win – short of Bush simply canceling the elections and appointing him President, which isn’t possible.
Face it, if Obama can’t pull a more than ten point lead over a senile, demented old fool like McCain with six weeks to go, Obama has a problem.
El Cid, just because everybody pats themselves on the back that Obama has it all sewn up doesn’t mean they have a fucking clue. Cut it out.
October 3rd, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Again, Hack’s “analysis” makes no sense.
First, it would be stupid and pointless for Bush/Cheney to be planning an “October Surprise” for McCain’s benefit and then not tell McCain all about it so that McCain could plan accordingly. Second, McCain is not just acting like the race will be competitive, which would be the smart play if he was planning for his “October Surprise”. Rather, McCain is acting like he is behind and needs to take big risks, meaning actions which may backfire. Again, doing that when you know some external event is going to make it competitive for you would be very foolish because the risks you are taking are unnecessary in such a case.
Nope, this notion of Hack’s makes no sense. Of course it never did, but McCain’s increasingly desperate and erratic behavior provide all the necessary evidence against this notion.
October 3rd, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Jeffrey,
Didn’t your parents teach you not to make nasty remarks about a woman’s appearance? Be complimentary, or be silent, is the polite thing to do.
Anyway that’s just silly. Palin has lost quite a bit of weight from when she was in high school, judging from the prom picture of her and Todd. Compare her round-ish face in the prom photo with her much leaner features now. I hardly thing she’s in danger of gaining too much neck fat.
October 4th, 2008 at 3:35 am
McCain is behind. Obviously he needs to get desperate, despite the “October Surprise”. Because like I said, yet again, he could still lose DESPITE such a “Surprise”. And if he’s losing badly enough, NO “Surprise” is going to help him.
You can’t comprehend this?
Nobody said the “October Surprise” was a guarantee of a win. What it may do is erase the minor point lead Obama has and ALLOW McCain to win.
That’s entirely different to your glad-handing notion that Obama just has to coast from now on to win.
As for McCain taking “risks” such as Palin – what part of “he’s an idiot” didn’t you understand the first time you became aware of him? Of course he’s doing stupid shit – that’s what he DOES! That has nothing to do with whether or not he could win with a “Surprise”.
If you’re so confident Obama is going to win, then don’t bother arguing the point. Just sit back and smile all the way to the election.
But in that case, if Obama loses, do us all a favor and STFU for the next four years instead of whining about it, which I know the Dems will do because they always do after losing what should have been a “slam-dunk”.
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