Matthew Yglesias » The Luck of the Irish

Sep 22nd, 2008 at 4:01 pm

The Luck of the Irish

John McCain, co-sponsor of an amnesty bill he says he’d vote against, came out swinging this morning on behalf of amnesty for the “50,000 Irish men and women who are in this country illegally at this time.”

I guess I’m still wondering why, if a path to citizenship is so important, McCain said he would vote against it.

Comments
73

73 Responses to “The Luck of the Irish”

David Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Only after we build a wall between us and Ireland. The American people have spoken and John McCain has heard them.
El Cid Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:04 pm
But will they pick our lettuce?
Bahrad Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:18 pm
We have now reached the point in the campaign where McCain, down in the polls, will say anything he can to any audience to get votes, even if the statements all end up contradicting themselves. It’s maybe a couple weeks ahead of schedule - usually candidates wait until the debates when opinion has firmed up and they get truly desperate - but since McCain doesn’t have any real principles aside from saying whatever he thinks is most dramatic at any given moment, one shouldn’t be surprised that he’s ahead of the curve on this.
Matt Conn Lee Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Hey, Matthew, you don’t understand. You seem not to know that the Irish are special people and deserving of special treatment.
aleks Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:23 pm
# El Cid Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:04 pm
But will they pick our lettuce?
***************

They’ll need at least 50 Euros an hour to do it.
Arnold Evans Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:28 pm
He’d vote against a bill he co-sponsored would be a good central plank for a narrative that he’d say anything to get elected.

As Matt pointed out when he was in front of the “liar” movement, reporting datapoints is not as important as tying these datapoints into a narrative and pushing the narrative.
laborlibert Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Did you expect him to say 7 million Mexicans?

I’m not going to give McCain a hard time on this. There are a whole lot of Irish and Italian people in this country. Many of us are anti-immigrant (or anti “brown” immigrant). Why not argue for a sane immigration policy by asking them to consider their own background and history?

Also, to the extent that these Irish/Italian/Polskies are voters who may have supported McCain but for his immigration policy, this could be a shrewd tactic.
jim Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Juan McCain is at it again. The Irish are white and speak English, so maybe if we could come up with a bill that only admitted those illegals, all would be fine.

Has Michelle “Queen of the Concentration Camps” Malkin’s head exploded yet over this? Maybe not, the Irish do have her coveted whiteness.
cminus Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:39 pm
I think McCain is playing to his audience here. The so-called “anti-immigrant” crowd usually draws a line between “legal” and “illegal” immigrants, opposing only the latter. McCain can support the Irish without trouble since the Irish are by definition “legal” immigrants, while still reserving the right to appeal to nativists by opposing “illegal” immigrants (Asian, African, Latin American and Caribbean immigrants, whether documented or undocumented, as well as guest workers, holders of tourist or H1B visas, foreign-born college students, and Nathan Jawai during Toronto road games).
Miatch Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:39 pm
As a proud Irish-Mexican, I’m so confused. McCain are you pandering to me, or being prejudice against me?
veblen Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:40 pm
So, we should find a way for illegal Irish immigrants to stay in the US, and work towards citizenship. Folks who probably flew into JFK or Logan, and then overstayed their visas.

But Mexican and Central American illegal immigrants — whose treks across the desert and through the violent crime of the border region are analagous to nothing so much as the experience of 17th and 18th century Europeans coming to the east coast — are to be excluded.

What’s the word for discriminating on this basis?
kafka Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:44 pm
“What’s the word for discriminating on this basis?”

Most Irish bring education and skills to American, and immigrants from south of the border don’t, I think what your looking for is “common sense”.
Hector Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:45 pm
I’m puzzled. Ireland has (unfortunately) achieved the dubious blessings of prosperity and modernity in the last decade or two- all the things that America promises. So why are Irish people immigrating to the US in any significant number?
SHF Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:45 pm
We are all Irish now!
croatoan Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:49 pm
I thought McCain drove the Irish out in 1904. Or am I confusing him with Grandpa Simpson again?
Asher Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:51 pm
This is pretty egregious (yet hilarious) racial politics.
clarence Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:53 pm
What this his town hall in Scranton — right near Hazelton? Hazelton, where the most anti-Hispanic legislation on renting to “illegals” was passed? No wonder there was only perfunctory applause when he mentioned Hispanic immigrants.

Listen, any Irish who are still in the US illegally after the phenomenal growth of the Irish economy in the 90s and into this century are clearly not the educated, skilled workers Kafka refers to.
tomemos Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:56 pm
“Most Irish bring education and skills to American, and immigrants from south of the border don’t, I think what your looking for is “common sense”.

kafka, if that’s the case, your job is clearly at risk of being taken by an Irish immigrant.
Miatch Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:56 pm
@ Kafka 12

No the word is prejudice, you fool.

Latin Americans are able to bring skills we need to this country, that’s why we’ve hired 12 million of them in the last 10 years. I, again, as an Irish-Mexican, happen to have a degree from Columbia University. Is that good enough for you?
Jason Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Hey, he can still pick on the Spanish. Also, Georgians are going to need to come here in droves soon enough, I’m sure, and will need an aggressive PR campaign to make them the “nice” smallish-East-European-country kin of our newly-young nation. And when will we be able to walk the streets of Adams Morgan, safe from the scourge of drunken Latvians and their “pharmacy” bars? Kick ‘em out, I say!
fostert Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:03 pm
“So why are Irish people immigrating to the US in any significant number?”

Because they can’t afford to live in their own country. The cost of living has skyrocketed in Ireland. An engineer’s salary barely pays the bills there now.
Gene O'Grady Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:10 pm
For what it’s worth, my experience has been that Irish Americans whose families have been here for 75-150 years (a group that does not include me but with which I am very familiar) don’t get along at all with the more recent Irish immigrants. Having dealt with a number of these more recent Irish immigrants I can see why.
kafka Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Oh, now I see! BushCo has ignored the immigration laws because he’s just dying to help poor Hispanics from Mexico. Has nothing to do with the Wall Street cheap labor lobby, because he wouldn’t dream of doing something that would benefit his billionaire friends.

Sheesh!
AssForAHeadDotCom Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:11 pm
[tumbleweed]
Whitey Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:19 pm
What the hell? Clearly I’m missing the context on this, but a) doesn’t this just enforce the view of the GOP as the “white” party (”even Hispanics”, after mentioning some white immigrant groups), b) who the hell even knew there were 50,000 illegal Irish in the country, and why is this an issue worth talking about?

I just don’t understand you, John McCain.
Flynn Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:25 pm
This pander to Irish Americans goes so far, even the president of the U.S. Ireland Alliance can’t support it.

I am very aware of the incalculable contributions the Irish have made, and will continue to make, to America. I am fully supportive of legalising the Irish, but along with everyone else, not at the expense of anyone else. Many Irish remember that their ancestors who arrived in America in the 19th century were greeted with discrimination and were told “no Irish need apply”.

It would be wrong for the Irish now to suggest that “no Mexican need apply”.

That’s some impressive pandering.
Matt B Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Obligatory Blazing Saddles clip.
ringrid Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:38 pm
The guy’s a ranting idiot. I think I’ll move back to Canada where their election campaigns are a merciful 6 weeks or so.
Colatina Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Funniest thread on Yglesias at Think Progress so far.
Hector Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:59 pm
I should add that abortion is still illegal in Ireland, thank God, although I fear that modernity and prosperity will corrupt the soul of Ireland the same way it has done for so many other countries. We could learn a thing or two from their example.
pseudonymous in nc Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:00 pm
While I hate the term, there’s certainly a ‘white ethnic’ constituency in places like PA and NJ (and NY), made up of nth-genners. It’s not just that they yank up the ladder against Hispanics; they also tend not to like African-Americans.

while still reserving the right to appeal to nativists by opposing “illegal” immigrants (Asian, African, Latin American and Caribbean immigrants, whether documented or undocumented

ITYM ‘non-Cuban Caribbean immigrants’; in common parlance, Cubans are never ‘illegal’, and Florida has 27 electoral votes.
Irish Person Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:01 pm
I’m puzzled. Ireland has (unfortunately) achieved the dubious blessings of prosperity and modernity in the last decade or two.

Fuck you, Hector.
Irish Person Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:07 pm
I should add that abortion is still illegal in Ireland, thank God, although I fear that modernity and prosperity will corrupt the soul of Ireland the same way it has done for so many other countries. We could learn a thing or two from their example.

Oh, THAT’s where you’re coming from with the insanity I quoted earlier. Eww. The only thing you could learn from the Irish example is how to export the problem to neighbouring countries (there is actually a government agency that helps Irish women get abortions in England) and that monumentally hypocritical “solution” isn’t geographically feasible for the US.
bdbd Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:10 pm
that’s a hell of a swim, makes the Rio Grande look like a piss trail!
Sock Puppet of the Great Satan Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:19 pm
“I’m puzzled. Ireland has (unfortunately) achieved the dubious blessings of prosperity and modernity in the last decade or two- all the things that America promises. So why are Irish people immigrating to the US in any significant number?”

The irresistable lure of traditional Christian life in Alaska.

Haven’t you heard of the many Irish dying in “the bloody passage of St. Brendan”, paddling their corragh boats through the ice floes to Wasilla, sustained only by holy wafers and a picture of John Paul II, to escape from the twin evils of prosperity and birth control?

(Hands up anyone from Ireland who remembers the graffiti…’clingfilm - an Irish solution to an Irish problem”)

Fostert has it right, though. The illegal Irish who came here in the ’80s and ’90s can’t afford to go back: Dublin is more expensive than any US real estate market save Manhattan. Galway houses are ~$600/sq.ft. Even fuckin’ Belfast is almost as expensive as San Francisco.
Hector Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Irish Person,

Um, you can call it insanity if you like, but it happens to be the truth. The Irish, historically, have made contributions to the civilization of Christendom and the world that were vastly out of proportion to their numbers. The Irish have been a tremendous example to the world, of the virtues of courage, purity, faith, idealism, justice, and general Christian virtue over the last thousand years. Much of the virtue of the Irish people lies in their historical experience of suffering, and in the way they responded to that suffering. The Ireland that made monumnetal contributions to Christian civilization was the Ireland of poor turnip farmers, not the Ireland of wealthy IT programmers. A “modern”, “secular” Ireland drunk on Mammon would simply not be the Ireland of history. Now Ireland is faced with the choice of gaining prosperity and losing their distinct Irish identity and virtues, to be boiled down into the shapeless and soulless European melting point. I am deeply saddened by the threats that I see to the Irish national essence.
Hector Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:31 pm
By the way, Irish Person, the number of Irish women who seek to undermine Irish social values by having abortions in Britain, has decreased over the last few years.
Irish Person Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:56 pm
By the way, Irish Person, the number of Irish women who seek to undermine Irish social values by having abortions in Britain, has decreased over the last few years.

Unsurprising, since sex education has been improving, so you’ll have a younger generation that is less afraid to negotiate condom use and doesn’t need to get (as) drunk before a casual hookup. Lower abortion rates are a sign of a more progressive society.

And you don’t get to speak for Irish social values or define what they are. Our wingnuts are a waning and enfeebled force, thankfully, unlike yours. They’ll die out with the older generation.

As for your lament that Irish people aren’t suffering from poverty and unemployment and a horrifying surfeit of priests any more: we’re not a fucking theme park. Less misery is a good thing. Unless you’re a right wing social conservative, of course. And you are a right wing social conservative, so why am I even bothering here? If we can’t even agree that suffering is bad there’s not much point in having a conversation.
Miatch Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Hey Hector, do you think the Irish people sucked horribly before they became Christians?
24AheadDotCom on this issue Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:00 pm
MattY continues spreading the lie that McCain is against something that he’s clearly for. He simply has a different way of misleading people. BHO and the MexicanGovernment try to mislead people about this issue in one way, McCain does it in another. But, all of them want the same thing. More details on this at my name’s link, including a bit of news about McCain’s appearance you’ll never hear about from MattY both due to ignorance and corruption.

And, on another note, I think things are starting to hit the fan. A look through my logs tomorrow - and others looking through their logs - should be very interesting.
Miatch Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:05 pm
@ 24.com #40

The only thing McCain is “clearly for” is becoming President. He is perfectly willing to adjust any policy positions to help him get there. No one, not even him, really knows where he stands on immigration, because he stands wherever he thinks he has to in order to become President.
Hector Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Irish Person,

I’m from Boston, so many of my close friends are Irish-American. They take their faith seriously, and they know that their faith was the thing that more than anything else maintained the Irish people through through 800 years of oppression. It is a terrible shame that you want to throw away the great contributions that the Irish Nation has made to European and world civilization, so that you can have more money and toys and casual hookups.

Suffering is not inherently a bad thing, no, if it contributes to the development of human virtue. The human virtues as we understand them are dependent on suffering and how we react to it. There could be no courage if there was nothing to fear, and no true generosity if there were no scarcity. As John 15:13 implies, a world without death would be a world without sacrifice and therefore a world without love.

I am not a ‘right wing conservative’ by the way, I generally vote Democrat and I am very far to the left on most issues of economics, foreign policy, and the environment.
Miatch Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Hector, you aren’t going to answer me? What do you think maintained the Irish people for the 6,000 years of culture prior to getting the Jesus juice?
pseudonymous in nc Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Irish Person: Hector likes playing Crusader dress-up. He is, of course, a colossal bag of shite.
pseudonymous in nc Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:46 pm
More details on this at my name’s link

Ah, Wacko Kelly, internet panhandler, once more darkly hinting that Teh Brown Menace is set to rise up and conquer, even while you don’t have the guts to say it outright. Keep hitting refresh on those ad revenue totals, you sad, sad fucker.
Hector Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Miatch,

Was there even an ‘Irish’ nation or did they call themselves something different?

Modern English culture as we know it is in its origin essentially Christian; I wouldn’t have a problem saying the same of Ireland.

Pseudonymous,

I don’t think you really get what I’m saying. I love Ireland- I love the Irish nation, the Irish people, and the role that Ireland has played in both secular and sacred history. Many of my friends are Irish American. I wish only the best for the Irish nation, and it saddens me when I see signs that they will be losing their unique identity and being absorbed into inspid Europe.

My hope is that a worldwide economic collapse will destroy modernity before modernity can destroy the human virtues.
Miatch Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 8:12 pm
So, Hector, basically in your worldview, time begins around 1000 years ago. And the human beings hanging out on this planet for the 200,000 years prior, were all inferior godless jerks?

I for one, would like to think that all my ancestors, whatever gods they chose to worship, were pretty good people.
Jack Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 8:18 pm
OK, so the Americans are supposed to legalise the Irish, the Irish are supposed to legalise (/have legalised) the Poles, and the Poles are going to - hold on. The Americans aren’t supposed to legalise the Mexicans, the Mexicans aren’t supposed to legalise the Poles, the Poles aren’t supposed to legalise the - what the hell?

Can I go to Ireland?
Hector Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Miatch,

Did I say that??

Look, Irish culture as we know it is essentially a Christian culture. Just like Turkish culture is essentially Muslim, today, in spite of the fact that Constantinople was a Christian capital for twice as long as it was a Muslim capital. This should not be that controversial. I’m sure that there was much that was good and noble in Celtic paganism, and I would hope that what was good in Celtic paganism was absorbes into the totality of Christian Irish culture.
24AheadDotCom Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Miatch Says: He is perfectly willing to adjust any policy positions to help him get there.

You’re re-transmitting a falsehood promulgated by MMFA, various MSM sources, and, of course, TP and MattY. McCain is willing to change his tactics, but the end goal remains the same. Saying otherwise shows you’re either a liar or you know little about this issue.

One can see TP in their post and their sockpuppets above trying to start a similar lie: that McCain only supports his plan for the Irish and not for other groups.

McCain has made it quite clear what he wants, and it’s the same thing that the USChamber of Commerce, the MexicanGovernment, and BHO want.
Miatch Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Hector,

Yes you did imply that. To claim that what makes Irish culture great is Christianity, implies that Irish culture prior to Christianity was inferior. To claim that Irish culture is essentially Christian culture, is to diminish all that the Irish did prior to getting the Jesus. You can find Irish people living on farms today who are the direct descendants of people who lived in the same area 4,000 years ago. They are the same people. Christianity did not make them better or worse. And when they move beyond Christianity, they still wont be any better or worse for it.

And one more lil’ history lesson for you: London was founded by Romans. English culture is as much based on Roman mythology (ie, Jupiter, Mars, Venus) as it is on Greek mythology (ie, Jesus, Mary, Peter, and Paul)
Miatch Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 8:44 pm
So, 24.com, you define policy positions as goals? How silly of me, I thought policy positions were implementations of goals, or as you put it, Tactics. Here is a short list of POLICY POSITIONS that McCain has adjusted in order to become president:

He was Against Torture, now he’s for it.

Against Warrantless Wiretapping now he’s for it.

Against Tax Cuts, then for tax cuts, then against tax cuts and now is FOR RAISING FICA taxes.

Against Privitizing Social Security, then for it, now against it, again. Maybe? Who knows?

Honestly, try a google. You’ll find about 1000 more.
pseudonymous in nc Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 9:53 pm
I don’t think you really get what I’m saying.

I get what you are, which is a Renaissance Fair dress-up Christian Warrior, and a colossal bag of shite. I refer you to this Irish religious and cultural hero.

As for the Kellybot: how long is it before TheyAllWorkForTheMexicanGovernment.com is launched in another pathetic attempt to stop people laughing at him?
Hector Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Miatch,

I don’t know what religion you may be. But I will note that the only person insulting anyone’s religion around here, is you insulting mine. Have at it, by the way, it doesn’t really bother me.

Look, when any normal person thinks of Irish culture,it is inevitably bound up with Christianity. The Christian narrative of sacrifice, martyrdom, redemption through suffering, the world as a vale of tears, etc. are all powerfully resonant themes in Irish history. You may not like all these themes, and that’s OK, but they are basic to the Irish national essence.
Gene Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Any chance that Hector is Cardinal Law’s sock puppet?
pseudonymous in nc Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Gene: that would be an ecumenical question. (Hectorer: feck off.)
Hector Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Ahh, why do I even bother. “Give not that which is holy to the dogs, neither cast you your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”
Miatch Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Hector, no one is asking you to bother. Feel free to go away.

At any rate my point was that Irish people were great before, during, and will be equally great after they give up Christianity.
DTM Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:50 am
I find it fascinating that Hector is on the one hand lamenting the possibility that Irish culture will be unduly influenced by pan-European trends, then turning around and claiming that Irish culture is just Christian culture.

By the way, for what it is worth, Christians didn’t invent narratives such as sacrifice and redemption. In fact, they didn’t even invent the glorification of human suffering.
global labor Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:08 am
The Mexicans are suppose to go to Lithuania to replace the people who left to pick potatoes in Ireland.

The shack I purchased in Irishtown in 1992 sold for almost 4x that amount in 2006. I almost made enough money to buy an apartment in Donnybrook.
Richard Steven Hack Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:00 am
Hector: “I am deeply saddened by the threats that I see to the Irish national essence.”

Yeah, well, so is Jim Corr which is why he opposes joining the European Union. He also more or less correctly thinks 9/11 was an “inside job” - although I think he gives too much credence to the more unnecessary conspiracy theories.

However, Ireland started out being more Jewish than Catholic as a result of the major influences of the trade routes from Israel and the Mediterranean up the European coast. It’s even theorized that when Mary Magdalene and her son by Jesus were spirited out of Israel that it was by virtue of Joseph’s trade route business connections that she entered Europe by way of Ireland, subsequently (or alternatively, depending on the theory) making her way to what is now the south of France.

In any event, Jewish influences were considerable in Ireland until the Catholic Church cracked down at one point and brought the native Irish churches under control.

In the meantime, I think Salma Hayek and assorted other Mexicans hold up rather better than the Corrs girls in terms of sheer physicality (much as I love Andrea, she’s never gonna match Salma body-wise or attitude-wise!) Not to mention other Latinas like Roselyn Sanchez, Eva Mendes, and the like.

So I think the Mexicans don’t have to worry too much about the Irish.

Although Andrea and the other Corrs girls are very Catholic. But then so are the Mexicans. So I don’t think you have to worry much about the Irish “national essence”. If they could withstand the British for hundreds of years, they can withstand the clowns in Europe.
Hector Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:58 am
Mr. Hack,

What the fuck? There is _no_ credible evidence that Christ had sexual intercourse with Mary Magdalene, or anyone else for that matter. That people claim there must have been, is just a symptom of how our culture cannot conceive of a sexless kind of love.

Screw off back to Leavenworth.
Hector Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:59 am
(For those not in the know, Mr. Hack has not mentioned that he is a former armed robber, who spent years in Leavenworth for robbing a bank at gunpoint to feed his smack habit.)
Ben Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Pseudo-history and wacked out conspiracy theories — Richie Hack never fails to bring Teh Crazy!

Perhaps the person who is not Mitt Romney with the least self-awareness on the world wide Internets.

Also, I’m curious what Hector thinks about the high degree of syncretism in Irish Catholicism, i.e., its heavily pagan flavor. Is that okay? And is Chuchulain less Irish for not being with the Holy Apostolic Church? What about Joyce, who thought the Church, having fucked Ireland, could go fuck itself?
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The Luck of the Irish

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