Mike Pence
There are very few members of congress with whom I’ve ever had the opportunity to discuss a substantive matter of public policy. But as it happens, one of them — the one with whom I’ve had the second-longest exchange — is Mike Pence (R-IN) who I’ve seen on television today repeatedly discussing the Republican Study Group’s “plan” for the financial crisis. And I can tell you this about Mike Pence: he has no idea what he’s talking about. The man is a fool, who deserves to be laughed at. He’s almost stupid enough to work in cable television.
Specifically, way back in 2005 I got to talk to him about Social Security privatization at a Heritage Foundation event. Obviously, I have my perspective on this and conservatives have theirs. But Pence had a truly peculiar idea. His idea was that the government ought to reassure people about the risks of losses under a privatization plan by having the government guarantee a minimum annuity level pegged to what’s promised under current law. This plan would, according to Pence, save money relative to current law because most people’s stock/bond portfolio would outperform the level needed to provide such an annuity, so the government would only need to kick in for a minority of people. I said I thought this would create a moral hazard problem for bad investors. He had no idea what I was talking about. Seemed unfamiliar with the term. Then I tried to explain it to him, I said that if the government guaranteed to bail you out in case of losses, then investors would make riskier investments and the number of people who need bailing out would rise. He just flat-out denied this, said the presence or absence of a guaranteed bailout would have no impact on investor behavior. He seemed unaware that some portfolios are riskier than others, or that higher average rates of return are associated with greater risk taking. He didn’t know anything at all, in short, about investing, financial markets, or, seemingly, the basic terms of public policy. And yet there he was speaking on the topic at Heritage. He’s a total fraud.
Which is all by way of introducing CAP VP for Economic Policy Michael Ettlinger’s critique of the Pence far-right crisis “plan” which, as you’ll see, is also utterly fraudulent. If cable news networks were run by people with any conscience, any sense of obligation or ethics, they would be treating this plan and its author as the joke they are. But of course they aren’t run by people with any conscience or any sense of ethics, so it’s all just treated as another subject for debate.
86 Responses to “Mike Pence”
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September 26th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
The cable networks run this stuff not because they have no conscience or ethnics– although that might be true. They run this stuff because they know as much about economic policy as Mike Pence himself, and so they have no way of knowing that Pence is a fraud.
September 26th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
While I agree that cable news is hardly run by ethical people, the main problem with this issue is that they are as stupid (or more so) than Pence.
So they can’t actually see that the plan is crap.
It took weeks of internet/non-traditional media hammering the McCain lies to get major media to start touching his mendacity.
We of course don’t have weeks to school them about Pence’s plan.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
You know, I have to tell you, I really enjoy this blog and the insight from everyone who participates. I find it to be refreshing and very informative. I wish there were more blogs like it. Anyway, I felt it was about time I posted, I
September 26th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Matt, buddy, tell us how you really feel about Pence.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Mike Pence is a nice man – but he is simpleton -
He has repeatedly said that the majority of the founding
fathers at the Consitutional Convention were
“Bible Believing Christians” who believed
in the literal truth of the Bible.
This is not an inference of his thought
He actually has said this a number of times.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Mike Pence is a certifiable Moron. We shouldn’t listen to him. And nobody should listen to this guy either:
FROM: http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/
Dallas Federal Reserve Bank President Richard Fisher said the proposed $700 billion rescue of financial institutions backed by Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke would plunge the U.S. government deeper into a fiscal abyss.
The plan by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson to buy troubled assets from financial institutions would put “one more straw on the back of the frightfully encumbered camel that is the federal government ledger,” Fisher said today in the text of a speech in New York. “We are deeply submerged in a vast fiscal chasm.”
Fisher made the comments as the central bank expands its role in the biggest government intrusion into markets since the New Deal, with Bernanke trying to persuade Congress to approve Paulson’s bailout plan…
”The seizures and convulsions we have experienced in the debt and equity markets have been the consequences of a sustained orgy of excess and reckless behavior, not a too-tight monetary policy,” Fisher said to the New York University Money Marketeers Club.
“I was, and I remain skeptical, that lowering the fed funds rate is the most effective antidote,” he said. “Rates held too low, too long during the previous Fed regime were an accomplice to that reckless behavior.”…..
September 26th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Ah, but he’s speaking the Very Serious People approved gibberish, so he’s allowed to be one half of the debate, between which the truth must lie.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
This stuff drives me crazy. You wouldn’t let a guy on ESPN say, “The Yankees won because they scored two touchdowns on a power play during stoppage time,” but with politics anything goes.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
I don’t know why Dems aren’t selling their plan to Republicans as a kind of Social Security privatization. We’re injecting a massive glob of capital into the markets in exchange for equity, plus some partially salvageable assets. Later, we’ll use some of our surplus to support old people. Is it really so different?
September 26th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Matt – you are wrong in the politics
Pelosi and the Dems should not let
the White House play the game
with Pence playing populist fool to Paulson-Peloi grown up
The Democrats have to insist on GOP and McCain support for
any plan.
They cannot risk playing the adult with this
easily demaggued issue.
Let Paulson try to educate Pence
Pence is a nice guy – He is just a simple man – a simpleton
who means well.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
wonkish
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/crisis-at-princeton/
September 26th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
A clever tactic might be for Pelosi to play
possum until the WH and McCain stop
playing chicken.
Pelosi should indicate interest in Boehner-Blount-Pence
and let Paulson freak out.
If Democrats bail out the White House and
please the Establishment MSM and the Cokies
-they will lose big time in potential November
gains.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
I’m originally from Pence’s district in Indiana. You’re right — the man is a fool.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Chris, that’s because average ‘Murkins are interested in sports and understand them.
Finance and Social Security, not so much. There is a lot of financial innumeracy in this country and so I can understand why cable TV news producers’ eyes would glaze over if you tried telling them that they ought to cover this topic in a bit more depth.
But, the average ‘Murkin isn’t interested in the ins and outs, he just wants to know if he’s going to get something for nothing, how much, and if his taxes are going to go up or not. That’s all there is to it.
Just imagine the size of the bailout if Social Security funds had been privatized. The bubble would have been monumental (even compared to the current bailout…) because all of those funds would have been leveraged to the max. And if Joe 6 Pack really thinks that there would not be a SS bailout… ha ha charade you are. A SS piratization would have combined the worst of Wall Street with the worst of our crony capitalism bailout market system.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
When Pence said that a Baghdad market was like a fair in Indiana he should have been laughed out of the country much less the Congress.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
I think it’s a little unfair to criticize him for not knowing the term “moral hazard.” I hadn’t heard it until two weeks ago. I used to use the term “bad incentives.” It’s the same concept, but with different words. The fact that Pence doesn’t seem to understand that we may be offering the wrong incentives is a genuine problem, however. But the bigger problem is not that he doesn’t see the problem, it’s that he thinks the problem is a feature. It’s time to introduce a new term: pro-Aristocracy. That pretty much sums up the Republican plan. And it’s high time we call them on it.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
I don’t know why anyone would assume that the average member of Congress, of either party, is any brighter than Mike Pence.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Re: chrismealy @ #8
Chris -
I saw that game, it was a real humdinger. But the best part was when Jeter hit that three-pointer, from near mid-court, with 1 second left – even though Al Oerter had aced Jeter on the previous serve.
I miss the good old days ….
September 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
that is pretty remarkably that he had no notion of moral hazard. But to be fair, given that the context of the privatization debate was to model after the TSP, it doesn’t seem like moral hazard would have been as relevant as you imagine. I have a TSP and your investment options are significantly limited. You can invest in one of about 5 or 6 funds (T-bills, Small Cap index fund, Large Cap Index Fund, International Index Fund, and I think a Money Morket Fund). With those as your options you can only go so wild.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
“Moral hazard” and “adverse selection” are terms that invariably appear within pages of each other in any intro economics textbook. Not everyone takes economics in college, but anyone presuming to hold forth on a panel discussion on an economic topic (even if it is hosted by the imbeciles at the Heritage Foundation) ought to be familiar with the term.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
“You wouldn’t let a guy on ESPN say, “The Yankees won because they scored two touchdowns on a power play during stoppage time,” but with politics anything goes”
Strange, isn’t it? I have a theory that every new pundit should come from the sportscasting world. They are the only journalists that can tell it like it is. Imagine if sportscasting had the same attitude as political commentary. So Brett Favre throws seven interceptions in a game. Rather than just saying Brett had a bad game, we go to a Jets fan who says that the refs were letting Favre get hit too much. Gotta have balance, right? Well, no. If “balance” means saying BS, then balance isn’t a good thing. If Brett Favre throws seven interceptions, he really had a bad game. Period. End of discussion. Sportscasters know this. And so does Brett Favre. But our political media will never understand this, will they?
September 26th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Simpletons like Pence have been ascendent in the GOP for quit some time. If you go back in history you can see this was the case when Nixon emerged in the post war era.
Nixon stood out from the rest of colleagues on the various red hunting committee because he was so much more intelligent than the rest of them.
But Pence comes from the Simpleton tradition – fearful of intellectuals, disdainful of anything but ‘horse-sense’
The domination of rustics in the GOP was something Chris Caldwell wrote about (from a conservative intellectual POV), but it mostly goes un-commented on by the media fearful of being seen as elitist.
The irony is that most ‘elitist’ reporters have BAs in fields like Communication and that’s about it.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Politico has a new article about the House Republican insurance plan.
Some Wall Street guy is quoted as saying that insurance is for things which are unlikely to happen. But in the current crisis, the bad thing has already happened. The securities have lost most of their value. You can’t go back and insure something after the fact.
Also, from what I have read, part of the problem here is that some of the securities _included_ insurance (in order to get a rating). But since the insurance was not regulated, it was meaningless. One company with a net worth of less than $40 mil provided insurance for $20 bln in bonds.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Republicans like to think that finance = economics. And that knowledge of finance = knowledge of economics.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Remember the RSC plan for Katrina? Cut PBS!
September 26th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Have you ever interviewed Iowa’s Steve King? Oh, my, fuck-ing, gawd!
September 26th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Many on this blog are aware that Bob Somerby
is always beating the dead horse of Gore 2000
Somerby’s Macro point seems to be that Dems
will never recover until they get the media to
admit to the war on Gore because so much stems
from that and the denial game that liberal Gore
haters still engage in.
That’s all debatable — But right now
the Democrats are about to pay a price
if they fail to force the GOP and the media
to hold the Pence types to account.
The current liberal temptation is to ignore the GOP
like Pence et al (Blount is already teasingly inviting them)
and pass Bush’s bill to please the power
establishment.
But they will pay for it – Pence and Company should
be Paulson and Bush’s headache – they
are the ones who should have to deal with the simples
they usually use when they want to stir up war fever.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Steve King from Iowa – barely sentient bumble-bum – He’s like
some sort of character that shows up in Mencken clippings.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Matt you use too many personal pronouns in your posts.
September 26th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
The really dangerous thing about Pence’s “plans” for either privatizing Social Security or bridging the credit crash is that for the first few seconds, they can sound interesting. Unfortunately, I think that’s all the attention many voters give before agreeing with them.
September 26th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Pence is a bit of a throw-back to a kind of Jack Kemp/Ronald Reagan sort of Republican. A bit of a whack job on economics, perhaps. But at least he’s not a card-carrying member of the Minutemen.
September 26th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
It’s time to recognize clearly that the Republican Party is almost wholly invested in bad theories economic and otherwise, incoherent policies, and nonsenical ideas. This country simply will not survive much longer if the GOP remains a national party as it is currently constructed. It must be totally detroyed and replaced with another party or a radically transformed platform entirely.
The only question is what will make the public willing to do this at the voting booth? If the market crashes due to Republican obstructionism and enough people see that this is the case, that might work. Otherwise who knows what will happen or who we’ll take with us when the whole rotten structure collapses.
September 26th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
But it’s important to keep a tiny bit of an open mind. For example Michelle Bachman, who I hesitate to praise because she’s so far to the right, and seems so full of resentment besides, nevertheless made a good point about mark-to-market accounting on TV last night. One of the reason’s we’re supposed to use taxpayer money to buy these assets is so that banks don’t have to sccount for these mortgages at firesale prices, thus wrecking their balance sheets.
Bachman made the really good point that instead of using taxpayer money, why not just temporarily suspend mark-to-market accounting? Allow these banks to account for these mortgages at whatever they think the true value is, thus (temporarily) fixing their balance sheets, and then the Fed can lend the banks any amount of short-term money to deal with a cash-crunch, so the banks don’t have to unload illiquid assets in a frozen market.
If the House Republicans want something concrete in exchange for voting for the bill, a temporary suspension of mark-to-market accounting seems to something that the Democrats and the Treasury should agree to.
September 26th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
““Moral hazard” and “adverse selection” are terms that invariably appear within pages of each other in any intro economics textbook.”
Well crush me up and turn me into oil, I guess I really am a dinosaur. I haven’t taken an economics class in twenty years. I do remember the term “adverse selection,” but “moral hazard” is really new to me. The concept isn’t, of course. Bad incentives have always existed.
September 26th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Seconding Fostert:
“You wouldn’t let a guy on ESPN say, “The Yankees won because they scored two touchdowns on a power play during stoppage time,” but with politics anything goes”
Additional data points:
Keith Olberman was/is a sportscaster who calls them as he sees them- & he knows what he is looking at!
Dennis Miller & El Rushbo were pitiful disasters at NFL football.
September 26th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
What percentage of the U.S. Congress are morons, do you suppose? 25%? 50%? 75%? Are there other countries as prone as the U.S. to electing morons to public office?
September 26th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Actually, the ESPN baseball commentariat is filled with morons. Read Firejoemorgan.com,
September 26th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
if the government guaranteed to bail you out..investors would make riskier investments…number of people who need bailing out would rise. He just flat-out denied this
Uh, markets, bitch?
September 26th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
“Keith Olberman was/is a sportscaster who calls them as he sees them”
I should note that Keith was the guy who inspired my theory.
September 26th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Allow these banks to account for these mortgages at whatever they think the true value is, thus (temporarily) fixing their balance sheets, and then the Fed can lend the banks any amount of short-term money to deal with a cash-crunch, so the banks don’t have to unload illiquid assets in a frozen market.
Roublen: don’t you see the obvious flaw in Bachman’s idea? Permitting banks to pretend that a given asset is worth more than the market is willing to pay gets us, um, exactly nowhere. It certainly doesn’t allow us to repair the balance sheet of a bank. Or, to put it another way, such a “repaired” balance sheet won’t be a reflection of reality, and investors are unlikely to be fooled by such a ruse.
September 26th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Joe Morgan, Steve Phillips, John Kruk, Rick Sutcliffe, Eric Young – all morons and all employed by ESPN to deliver baseball wisdom to the masses. Baseball Tonight is almost as bad as Hardball these days.
September 26th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
And don’t even get me started on Tim McCarver & Joe Buck. Never has a bigger pair of idiots been allowed to call the World Series.
September 26th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Matt Taibbi, 2004:
September 26th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Mike and Maddog on WFAN were indeed vicious – and almost certainly mentally retarded. I understand the charm in propping up sports journalism as some sort of contrast to the political journalism, but it just isn’t true to anyone who pays attention.
September 26th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Jasper, but the reason we’re supposed to be using taxpayer money is that the current market prices are supposed to be firesale prices which don’t reflect the true value of the assets. If you think that’s true, then temporarily relaxing mark-to-market rules is a less drastic measure than actually having taxpayers buy the stuff.
September 26th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
I propose that the only people allowed to comment on TARP must possess, at a minimum and preferably more, one of the following certifications/diplomas/charters:
1. CFA
2. MBA
3. CPA
4. Ph.D. Finance, Economics, or Accounting
5. MS, Financial Engineering
Furthermore, if the term, Gaussian Cupola, means nothing to you, you should remain quiet.
If you do not meet these conditions, the likelihood of you actually understanding what’s going on is very near zero.
September 26th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Matt,
As a cable news insider, I can tell you your diagnosis is off, though the reality is no less depressing. The problem has nothing to do either with conscience or ethics. It stems entirely, and I mean that literally, entirely from the sad fact that nobody where I work truly understands much of anything they report on — nor do they admit it, nor do the editors know more. In fact, many know less.
Not knowing the truth, or even the parameters of it, we resort to lazily circling around it or worse, lazily circling around the wrong spot. We lean on balance, without knowing where or how to locate the center of gravity. Also, there’s a negative side.
September 26th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Yessirree, Mr. Banker, why I figgurs mah doublewide is worth 1 million dollars and that ain’t includin’ the land, so hows about you give me a HELOC for half that amount?
See the problem, roublen?
September 26th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Marshall, you just proved the truth of Matt’s statement. Really. If you don’t know what you are talking about and pretend that you do that is acting as a person without “any conscience, any sense of obligation or ethics.”
September 26th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Shorter Matt: People who went to Harvard should rule the world.
September 26th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
milo, but if you have dishonest management who want to fudge the figures, they can do that no matter what the accounting system. The problem with mark-to-market accounting seems to me that it’s pro-cyclical. It makes booms boomier and busts bustier. So temporarily relaxing mark-to-market rules seems to me worth trying, certainly worth trying as an alternative to using taxpayer money.
I’d also plug John Bogle’s 2002 speech, “Don’t Count On It! The Perils of Numeracy”, which details the accounting tricks companies were using circa 2002. The problem is that I think mark-to-market accounting, and Sarbanes-Oxley more generally, was a bit of a gimmick. It didn’t really fix the old accounting problems, and may have created some new ones.
http://www.vanguard.com/bogle_site/sp20021018.html
September 26th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Shorter Matt: People who a) are not morons and b) know what the hell they’re doing should rule the world.
Sad that it’s such a controversial idea these days.
September 26th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Pence was also the guy who pushed for captured Iraqi documents to be put on the internet so bloggers could research them and come up with better rationales for why we were there. Those included some plans for components of nuclear weapons, conveniently already written in Arabic.
September 26th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Chris wrote: “You wouldn’t let a guy on ESPN say, “The Yankees won because they scored two touchdowns on a power play during stoppage time,” but with politics anything goes.”
Ha! GOPers know that there is no stoppage time in basketball!
September 26th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Milo:
Don’t engage in reductio ad Milum. It was an assessment of my industry, not a muddleheaded self-indictment.
September 26th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Here in Chicago, Mike Pence shows up in the news now and then being a rep from our neighbor. I can confirm that he is as crazy as a shit house rat.
But, to be fair, I’ve traveled a fair bit through his district, and he fits right in over there. In fact, he might be one of the brighter bulbs in a part of Indiana made up of dolts, cretins and snake handlers who are trying to chase away the spirit of witchcraft.
It’s like Wasilla without the moose. Thus, Mike Pence.
September 26th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Jasper, but the reason we’re supposed to be using taxpayer money is that the current market prices are supposed to be firesale prices which don’t reflect the true value of the assets.
Roublen: That’s not true at all (if I understand you correctly). Regrettably, the “firesale” price is the true price — it’s what the market is willing to pay, based on, among other variables, what the market deems is the risk of not getting its principal back.
It’s true that you could allow banks to claim (via suspension of mark-to-market rules) that their mortgage-backed securities are worth XYZ. It’s also unfortunately true that very few investors are likely to believe such claims.
I’m not saying, mind you, that lots of mortgage-baked securities may not rise in value in the fullness of time. Let’s hope they do. I just rather suspect most investors aren’t willing to pay tomorrow’s prices today because of a change in accounting rules.
September 26th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
The problem with Indiana is that all the smart people have already left for other states. Whenever, through the luck of the genetic draw, another smart person is produced, that person also leaves as soon as he or she gets the chance.
September 26th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
A friend of mine (in his 40s) had who he described as “a real douchebag type” for an RA in college.
That RA? Mike Pence.
WF
(who is not kidding)
September 26th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
I like this yglesias. Speaking his mind with little invective added.
September 26th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Marshall -
I don’t think Milo was referring to you specifically, it was more of the generalized “you”. (Maybe that’s not how you intended your reply to read, but it seemed to come across that way.)
September 26th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Simpletons unite!
September 26th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Thanks for this! I am the guy that is trying to retire Mike Pence. http://www.barrywelsh.org
September 27th, 2008 at 9:49 am
roublen….
mark to market is a valuation system used by firms/people who want to know what their assets are worth if they had to liquidate them immediately to pay bills. my 30 plus years on wall street lead me to admire goldman sachs. they eveynight value their assets at mark to market. that’s how they know what to do with them. why do you think warren buffet invest $5 billion in them. he saw their balance sheet and knew what they were worth and what the potential reward/risk was. without mark to market you would have no idea what the true worth of the company is. without that knowledge how does one make a rational investment.
September 27th, 2008 at 11:06 am
I went to college with Mike Pence. (Hanover College, Indiana). Same class, same major, different fraternities. He was a self-righteous prig who thought he was much smarter than warranted. He hasn’t changed.
September 27th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Well, my mind’s not made up on the issue. But to present the other side, here was an op-ed on WSJ editorial page. I don’t agree with everything in the op-ed, but he makes some good points. There were also some good letters in response to the op-ed, generally in favor of mark-to-market.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178603685354943.html?mod=article-outset-box
“During the 1980s, our underlying economic problems were far more serious than the economic problems we’re facing this time around. . .These economic problems led to massive credit problems in the banking and thrift industries. . .It could have been much worse. The country’s 10-largest banks were loaded up with Third World debt that was valued in the markets at cents on the dollar. If we had marked those loans to market prices, virtually every one of them would have been insolvent. . .If we had followed today’s approach during the 1980s, we would have nationalized all of the major banks in the country and thousands of additional banks and thrifts would have failed. I have little doubt that the country would have gone from a serious recession into a depression.. . .”
Here is a bit from one of the letters:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122247046217180743.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
” . . .MTM is not the principal cause of the meltdown. A major cause was treatment of mortgage-backed securities as assets available for sale, and therefore subject to MTM. It is reasonable to value securities at their “intrinsic” value, based on discounted cash flow, and ignore MTM, if they are to be held to maturity and appropriately financed by long-term debt. . .MTM did not create the vulnerability. It merely reported it.”
November 10th, 2008 at 11:07 am
I would like to take a moment to refute the perception that sports journalists “tell it like it is”. They are just as prone to cover up managerial incompetence or on field stupidity as our beloved political pundits.
Example #1 – Tommy Lasorda was regularly called a baseball genius. Because he did a few double subs and sacrificed more often than most managers. Sparky Anderson is not far behind.
Example #2 – Brett Favre. Do any of our TV announcers ever say that he is reckless and makes poor decisions? Gets treated like Dubya, a manly man and all around fun guy.
The list is endless. In fact, you might make a case that political pundits learned from the sports journos.
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