A Wide World Out There
Canadian readers will no doubt dismiss this as an oversimplification, but in the scheme of things Canadians are a lot like Americans. And one respect in which they resemble Americans is that Canadians have some knowledge of American politics and history. But in another respect, this is one of the biggest differences between Canada and the United States — Canadians are intensely familiar with aspects of a foreign country, whereas Americans tend to know almost nothing of the world outside our borders. Take this account of MP Bob Rae on the stump:
He went so far as — we thought the Conservatives were the worst at this kind of hyperbole — to compare Mr. Harper to the president during the Great Depression. “From Mr. Harper … we have ideology, we have personal attacks, we have negativity and we have Herbert Hoover in a blue sweater.”
I’m not sure I’ve ever heard a U.S. politician draw an analogy to any foreign leader other than Churchill or Hitler. And then there’s this from his blog:
We need to build a progessive coalition to defeat the Harperites. This isn’t about saving the NDP’s skin. It’s about defeating, and replacing, a government that doesn’t believe in child care, better health care, a new partnership with first nations, Metis, and Inuit, investment in cities and has no commitment whatsoever to the environment. The NDP doesn’t get that. Jack Layton thinks he’s Obama. What a joke. He’s Ralph Nader, hand on the horn, “no difference between Bush and Al Gore”.
Zing! Obviously in large part this just reflects the realities of Canadian geography. Not many people live in Canada, and Canada’s major population centers are all pretty close to the US border and often far away from each other. Still, it’s striking.
65 Responses to “A Wide World Out There”
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September 18th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
I only know a little about Canadian politics…but wasn’t Bob Rae the NDP premiere of Ontario? There must be some interesting story to why he’s comparing the NDP to Naderites now. Did he go over to the Liberals?
September 18th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
You have to understand that you guys are the noisy neighbours on the block. Whether we want to or not, we have to listen to your thumping music, your screaming fights, your weepy reconciliations, and your spring-squeaking copulations. How could we not be aware of you?
Adding to the complexity, Bob Rae is the former NDP premier of Ontario, who ran into trouble handling a recession in the early 90s. He recently migrated to the Liberals and ran for the leadership, losing to Stephane Dion–who is now scrambling to keep up with Harper. So when Rae takes a shot at NDP leader Jack Layton, it’s just business. And if Dion loses the election, Rae is a strong contender to replace him.
For some reason Ontarians still dislike Rae (though he’s a smart, charming, and witty guy) because of the recession he wasn’t to blame for. But Rae was beaten by the Mike Harris Conservatives, who damn near ruined Ontario’s public service. Harris also destroyed the provincial public health system, leading to various scandals and deaths. Many of Harris’s cabinet ministers are now in the federal cabinet of Stephen Harper, where he keeps them well muzzled.
And with good reason: his agriculture minister recently made some stupid jokes about the listeriosis deaths resulting from poor inspection of processed meat, and has now apologized.
Fond as I am of Bob Rae (and of Stephan Dion), I’m backing Jack Layton. Far from being a Ralph Nader, or a Barack Obama, he’s a pretty decent guy in the tradition of Tommy Douglas (who gave us medicare, and gave America his grandson Kiefer Sutherland).
From a US point of view, Layton must look like Mao with a moustache. But from a Canadian point of view, Obama looks like Thomas Sowell with writing ability. Still, we’re all hoping for Obama to win–NDP, Liberals, and even the old Red Tories who now endure the heavy hand of Stephen Harper.
September 18th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
That kind of Eh-1 saucy campaign talk would be a lot more compelling as some sort of standard to aspire to if the picture didn’t look so much like the SFGITW Dougie Feith.
Wait- Isn’t the Canadian band equivalent of Country Joe and the Fish called …Doug and the Fougs? If you were asked to think up what a “Foug” would look like, is this the guy?
And what if maybe the middle letter in NAFTA doesn’t stand for “Free”?
It could explain a lot.
September 18th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Would an American politician do this?
September 18th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Lab:
Russia is bigger than Canada.
Obama is definitely more popular than McCain by a far margin, but that’s pretty much true elsewhere in the Western world. Canadians’ values would place them closer to Europe than to the US.
Canadian public support for NAFTA is pretty strong. Many people raised their eyebrows at Obama’s notion of re-working NAFTA, and my guess is that doing so would create more problems than it would solve (Canada’s reaction would be “fine, there are some things we’d like to change too”).
Canada is one of the most diverse and racially tolerant countries in the world – although intolerance can happen. Toronto is in fact considered the most cosmopolitan city in the world by the UN.
September 18th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Another fun thing about the Canadian election? The ABC campaign, which is looking pretty tasty. The Conservative premier of Newfoundland, Danny Williams, is an old-school Tory and despises Harper, and he’s launched an national campaign to get people voting Anyone But Conservative.
The gap between the provincial and federal parties is very different from state and federal party identification in the US, even in states with conservative Democrat or liberal Republican governors and legislatures.
But on topic: Canadians aren’t exceptionalists.
September 18th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
I also find Canadian women very attractive.
It’s because they are so cosmopolitan…
September 18th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Bob Rae is one person who can really get my blood boiling. Wanna talk about the true Manchurian Candidate?
He got elected as the first NDP premier in Ontario, to the delight of us lefties who have wandered in the wilderness all these years. But then he ruled like a gutless Liberal, and in part due to economic factors outside his control, he proceeded to ruin the NDP brand in Ontario for at least a generation. After which he proceeded to switch to the Liberal party – which is where he belonged all along.
I live in his (now) riding, and he came to my door this year when he was campaigning in the by-election. When I gave him an earful, and informed him in no uncertain terms that no, he could not count on my support, he tried to be all accommodating, saying “hey – that’s totally OK” – to which I answered “oh – I *know* it’s OK”…
So yeah, not a Bob Rae fan.
September 18th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
As an American, I’ll say that Bob Rae knows how to keep his eye on the prize. He gets that Harper needs to be shown the door as the most important thing in the elections. That people need to put aside petty squabbles so that the Conservatives and Harper don’t ruin Canada.
September 18th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Rich: Yes, this is the same Bob Rae who was the Premier of Ontario. He later switched to the Federal Liberals in time for the race to succeed Paul Martin in the party’s leadership – which eventually went to Stephane Dion.
Matt: Actually, there is a very strong Canadian cohesion across Canada (or English Canada, anyways). The reason why Canadians know so much about US politics is primarily because it’s so hard to escape exposure.
As you know, Canadians are also going to the polls this fall (Oct 14th), and believe it or not, many Canadians are more interested in the US election than in their own. I think this is mostly due to the fact that US politicians are so much more entertaining than their Canadian counterparts.
September 18th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
McCain = Margaret Thatcher in drag.
There you go.
September 18th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Phil- I read in the Toronto Globe & Mail online that a poll of Canucks showed them favoring Obama by 4 to 1. That’s got to say something about relative levels of racial tolerance. That, and it could indicate how they view NAFTA. Or maybe from that distance they can see McCain for what he is.
Canada is the biggest country in the world, with one of the smaller rates of populations, with about the same average wealth, and a pretty good guaranteed health plan.
Something to keep in mind if things go badly in November.
September 18th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Just wanted to drop in and gloat that our federal election is only five weeks long from start to finish.
I’m already sick of ads with Harper in them, with his sweater vests and his dead dead dead inside eyes, but still… just a little under four weeks, and we can go back to ignoring Ottawa.
September 18th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
You know, it’s been a while since I worked in a large office, but one thing I remember is that I barely knew the people in the cubicles next to me but I damn sure knew my bosses and even my bosses’ bosses. I can’t help but think of that when I hear the complaint that Americans know precious little about our neighbors. Attention tends to focus on size and not proximity.
September 18th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Canada’s always had bit more room for egghead politicians (Trudeau), but it’s pretty overwhelming right now. PM Harper has an MA in Economics & ran a major think tank; Liberal leader Dion has a PhD (from Paris); NDP leader Layton is another PhD; Green Party leader May has a couple of honourary doctorates and is working on her Theology degree.
However, the main reason Canadians are so tuned into the American presidential campaign is the Moose. We like ‘em… Sarah don’t. GO MOOSE!
September 18th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
1) Ryan is right on about size and power. Few Americans know much about Canada, but the folks from Ontario know fuck all about Saskatchewan, and folks from Regina know less about La Ronge.
2) Hector, being able to successfully co-exist with people very different from you who also want to co-exist peacefully is, in fact, a VERY good thing. It also means great authentic “foreign” cuisine, but only locals know where to find it.
3) I’m trying to adjust to the fact that McKingford is from Toronto. After ten years away, my ear must be off: I mistook “Ornery Scotch” for “American dickhead.” But “left” is far inferior to “opportunist” as a modifier to “centre”.
4) JonF: You are Canada’s Mexico.
September 18th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
I’m pretty sure most canadians know american history better than they know canadian history.
If Bob Rae had made an allusion to say.. Mackenzie Bowell, or Louis St.Laurent, I know I’d be lost. (I had to look those names up on wikipedia).
September 18th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Re: Toronto is in fact considered the most cosmopolitan city in the world by the UN.
As if being “cosmopolitan” is a good thing.
September 18th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Canadians are, however, very nice and friendly people in my experience. I also find Canadian women very attractive.
September 18th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
I remember talking to a Canadian kid once in high school. I was impressed with how much he knew about American politics and history, so I asked him for a brief rundown on Canadian history. Who is the Canadian George Washington? Who are the country’s icons, its heroes, its traitors?
After a brief pause he started talking about Queen Elizabeth, John MacDonald, and Tommy Dougalas. I listened to him for a few minutes and then broke in,
“I’m sorry, but this is really boring,” I said.
He sighed. “I know. Why do you think I read American history?”
September 18th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
<emThe Liberals are centrist on the best of days, with no left modifier necessary.
Not so much. As the Star noted this week, the business wing of the party is restless under Dion. The Liberals have gone to the left of the NDP on carbon pricing (which should be shameful for New Democrats, yet apparently isn’t). They’ve made fairly serious child-care and education policy announcements this week. Ultimately, they are slightly left of centre.
By the way, Obama’s remarks about program review and government spending reform are straight out of Paul Martin, Canada’s finance minister in the 1990s. While a dismal prime minister later on, program review has been Paul Martin’s gift to Blair, Sarkozy and now Obama, which is pretty impressive.
September 18th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Rae’s falling out with the New Democrats was mainly due to differing views on Israel, but yes, he was a New Democrat.
The Liberals in Canada are doing a lot of things wrong, but give them credit where credit it due — they’re a huge, mainstream party that is speaking truth about carbon pricing. The Conservatives in Canada are too ideologically right-wing to endorse Schwartzenegger/Cameron-style environmental policy reform, so the Liberals are taking a substantive policy fight to them. It’s nice to see these ideas coming from the centre-left rather than the centre-right, where they often have to go to find mass appeal.
Also, it cannot be overstated how utterly disinterested Canada is in their own election. Completely, completely disinterested.
September 18th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Re: Many people raised their eyebrows at Obama’s notion of re-working NAFTA, and my guess is that doing so would create more problems than it would solve
Very few Americans even think of Canada when they think about NAFTA. If NAFTA were between just the US and Canada it would seldom figure in political debate at all. It’s the Mexico corner of the NAFTA triangle that is controversial in the US, since many Americans are convinced Americans jobsd have gone south of the border. Canadian labor costs are in line with our own, and we don’t have a problem with illegal Canadian immigrants.
September 18th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
It’s nice to see these ideas coming from the centre-left
The Liberals are centrist on the best of days, with no left modifier necessary.
September 18th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Didn’t McCain just equate Jose Zapatero with Hugo Chavez?
September 18th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
If NAFTA were between just the US and Canada it would seldom figure in political debate at all
There’s a huge trade dispute with Canada over lumber, with much bitterness:
September 18th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Here’s a brief primer on Canadian history and why we tend to pay attention to the US. It basically divides Canada into various historical periods.
The Time Before the Europeans (Except for the Vikings)
The French Period With Voyageurs, Beaver Pelts, and the First American Invasion
The British Conquest (And Québec Won’t Let You Forget It)
The Unpleasantness in the South and the Second American Invasion
The War Of 1812, The Third American Invasion and WE KICKED YOUR ASSES!
That Bit of Time Where You Had Slavery and We Didn’t, Justifying Our National Moral Superiority
Bunch of Meetings, Finally Decided to Form a Country To Mutually Defend Against An American Invasion
The Railroad, Expansion West, Forming the RCMP to Stop Another American Invasion
World War I, Fighting for the Old Country. Both of Them.
The Depression. Stupid Americans Can’t Control Their Economy.
World War II, Part 1: The Americans Don’t Seem to Be Here, Again
World War II, Part 2: The Americans Finally Decide the Show Up
Korea, And the Goddamn Americans Always Forget We Were There
Peacekeeping, The 1960s, Trudeau, Mulroney Blowing Reagan, Americans Not Keeping To Deal They Signed, Goddamn Americans Losing Control of Their Economy Again…
September 18th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Some of us Americans used to pay attention to Pierre Trudeau’s wife back in the day.
September 18th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Yuck – sorry for that formatting. Wrong button.
September 18th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Bob Rae is a very smart guy. He is a Rhodes scholar and international constitutional expert who has performed with great distinction on diplomatic missions and as chairman of a commission on higher educational reform.
He was much less successful as the NDP premier of Ontario in the early 90’s. He won a fluke election victory in a tight, three way race. Rae infuriated union supporters with cutbacks and layoffs. He was also burdened by MPs and cabinet members who had never run anything. Many were well-meaning teachers, social workers and community organizers. After going down to defeat, Rae spent more than a decade as a lawyer before joining the Liberal party and contesting the leadership. He lost in a wide-open convention that went to four ballots. But now it looks like the Liberals may have picked the wrong guy: an uber-wonky professor who can’t relate to people.
You’re right that Rae knows a lot about US politics. His father was a Canadian diplomat and Rae lived in Washington for a time. His famous — and oft told — story is about being he paperboy to both Richard Nixon and Estes Kefauver. Pat Nixon tipped him a quarter at Christmas while Kefauver gave him 20 bucks. Rae claims this made him a Democrat.
The knock on Rae has always been that he was never REALLY socialist — it was always an intellectual, debating society type of engagment.
Rae is my local MP in downtown Toronto. For a 60 year old, he is surprisingly hip. He personally updates his Facebook status twice a day from his blackberry.
We met at a fun run two weeks ago. In our three minute discussion, we discusssed Twitter and Sarah Palin. Canadian politics never came up.
And it was from Rae that I first learned of the Kilkenny letter. He had it 24 hours before it hit the blogosphere.
September 18th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Also, it cannot be overstated how utterly disinterested Canada is in their own election. Completely, completely disinterested.
I think you mean “uninterested”. We are far from disinterested.
This is a pointless election, called well before the time it should have been called, but it may yet yield a Conservative majority to replace their minority. Bugger.
September 18th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
i know it’s not too far off from Churchill, but the neocons have often referenced (directly and indirectly) Neville Chamberlain and his treacherous ways of appeasement!
September 18th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
I think you mean “uninterested”.
In fact, the leaders debate up here is the same night as the Biden-Palin debate. It’s widely expected that vastly more people will be tuning into the the American channels to (hopefully) see a righteous ass-whupping of Caribou Barbie than will tune in to see the Weasel, the Idiot, the Twit, the French Guy and Wosserface.
September 18th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Hector writes: As if being “cosmopolitan” is a good thing.
I certainly don’t see why it’s a bad thing. I don’t see how Toronto is suffering from it – in fact, Toronto is thriving culturally because of it.
September 18th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
If Canada were #1, rather than essentially an adjunct of the United States, Canadians would be similarly uninterested.
Assertion without evidence, based upon sample size of one.
Show your work. With links.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:14 am
When I was in high school I considered Reagan a Peronist. The only kids who knew what I meant were the ones who saw “Evita”.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:50 am
20th century historical foreign leaders whom I would not be surprised if an American politician mentioned in some capacity:
Neville Chamberlain
Chiang Kai-shek
Fidel Castro (he’s historical now!)
Winston Churchill
Charles De Gaulle
Mikhail Gorbachev
Adolf Hitler
Ho Chi Minh
Saddam Hussein
Nikita Khrushchev
Mao Zedong
Golda Meir
Muhammad Reza Pahlavi
Benito Mussolini
Joseph Stalin
Margaret Thatcher
Perhaps some others. Obviously, Americans aren’t familiar with any Canadian historical figures (with the possible exception, among people of a certain age, of Pierre Trudeau), but I think there’s a fair number of foreign leaders who wouldn’t be too surprising to see brought up.
On the other hand, Herbert Hoover would seem to be at a level of importance rather below that, and it’s odd that a Canadian would mention Hoover rather than their own Depression era figures (Richard Bedford Bennett seems to have occupied a position in Canadian history roughly analogous to Hoover’s in American history). And I’d be shocked if an American politician referenced Stanley Baldwin or Léon Blum, say, who were both prominent politicians in what were then powerful countries at around the same time period.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:06 am
In a real sense, the USA is everybody’s second culture, and most know something about it. Americans, too, of course. So Canadians knowing more US history than vice versa doesn’t really make them much more “international”. Now if they know more about Japan, China, India, Nigeria, Turkey, and Russia, well, then you’ve got something.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:10 am
But in another respect, this is one of the biggest differences between Canada and the United States — Canadians are intensely familiar with aspects of a foreign country, whereas Americans tend to know almost nothing of the world outside our borders.
You’re exaggerating absurdly, but to the extent that Americans do pay less attention to the rest of the world than the rest of the world pays to America it’s because the U.S. is just so much more important and influential than any other country. And in some ways more important than all other countries combined. If Canada were #1, rather than essentially an adjunct of the United States, Canadians would be similarly uninterested.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:39 am
I lived in Australia for a while, and people hearing my North American accent would frequently ask if I was Canadian. Now, I doubt if many Australians can distinguish the small differences between my Pacific Northwest American English and Canadian English. Finally I started asking why they thought I was Canadian and got the following reply:
Americans never mind being taken for Canadian, but Canadians hate always being taken for Americans, so it’s safer to ask if the person is Canadian.
September 19th, 2008 at 3:24 am
Re: It is common to criticize Americans about Vietnam while conveniently ignoring the atrocities of the North Vietnamese, cutting off limbs and beheading village elders as examples to those cooperating with the U.S.
Except that we went them one further, since we killed people (at My Lai, and elsewhere) who hadn’t been collaborating with anyone.
Those atrocities also don’t necessarily make their _cause_ a bad one any more than the firebombing of Dresden made it a bad cause to fight the Nazis.
Canadia was quite right not to participate in that war, and to condemn it. Korea is probably a different story.
September 19th, 2008 at 3:30 am
That’s what sprang to my mind too — though usually (as in the case of Bush with Obama) it serves to show that neocons have a very poor grasp of historical events and what appeasement really is.
September 19th, 2008 at 3:46 am
Thing is, American history is pretty important for understanding Canadian history (not so much vice versa, alas), so we’re all taught some American history in high school. The English-speaking part of the country was founded by Loyalists (you call them “Tories”); Confederation in 1867 was substantially owing to fear of invasion by the huge, victorious Union army; etc. But it’s a different aspect of American history. I doubt Canadians generally know much about Andrew Jackson, Teddy Roosevelt, or, say, the New Deal. Apart from what they recall of high school American history, they generally know those parts of American history which are essential to popular culture: Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, JFK.
Canadianophiles among our American comrades may be interested to know that the first ever big-budget Canadian war movie, “Passchendaele,” is about to be released. It’s about WWI, in which we had a relatively glorious part (glorious amidst all the horror, of course), and for my money it’s bar none the greatest depiction of trench warfare ever put on film.
September 19th, 2008 at 6:48 am
Re: You are Canada’s Mexico.
Nonsense. Labor costs in the US are pretty much on par with those in Canada– may even be somewhat higher due to the fact that healthcare is a direct labor expense in the US. Hence, no “giant sucking sound” of businesses sending Canadian jobs over the border to the US. Also, I don’t think Canada has a problem with its borders being overrun by low-skill, low-education immigrants looking for work.
Re: There’s a huge trade dispute with Canada over lumber, with much bitterness:
Yes, I am aware of that– but only because I am very well read and also I’m a fan of Canada (grew up just twenty five miles from the border and used to spend a fair amount of time over there). The average blue collar Joe on a bar stool knows nothing about that (unless he happens to work in lumber) and he cares less. What everyone in the US “knows” is that all the good jobs went to Mexico. Everyone in the US (other than a few rightwing goose-stepper types) likes Canada, evenm if they know nothing more about it than hockey, good beer and Mounties. Mexico is, to say the least, controversial on more than one front.
Re: the First American Invasion
Um, wouldn’t that have been the English Invasion since the United States did not yet exist, and whatever happened in North America involving English-speakers was being stage-managed out of London?
Re: Canadians are intensely familiar with aspects of a foreign country, whereas Americans tend to know almost nothing of the world outside our borders.
I recall a camping trip in Canada in September of 1998 when I met up with a Canadian guy and his teenage son in the literal Middle Of No Where Back Woods Ontario– and the guy asked me if I’d heard the latest about the Monica Lewinsky scandal.
September 19th, 2008 at 6:59 am
Right and left are relative things and in many ways Canada is more conservative than the U.S. if conservative means not rocking the boat; otherwise we are socially more progressive than the average American. In fact Senator Obama is at least as conservative as Steven Harper yet The Canadian left Loves Obama as rapturously as most Democrats. The only thing in which they differ substantially is on abortion however the likelihood that abortion becomes illegal in Canada is nil, nothing nada!
As a Canadian who follows American politics intently I would support Senator Obama and most likely Stephen Harper; of course this is blasphemous but I believe that Canadians need to get off their high horses and take responsibility for their actions (or inaction). It is easy to criticize the U.S. because they have serious responsibilities in the world while we stand on the sidelines (except Afghanistan, WW2 and Korea) and pooh pooh American actions. It is common to criticize Americans about Vietnam while conveniently ignoring the atrocities of the North Vietnamese, cutting off limbs and beheading village elders as examples to those cooperating with the U.S.
Yes, here in Canada, we love or hate Americans with a passion, but make no mistake, most of us are damned glad you guys are around! (Despite GW Bush).
Thanks
September 19th, 2008 at 8:15 am
It doesn’t hurt when American history is part of your high school curriculum alongside Canadian history. At least, that’s how it was at my school out east.
Truth is, American history came across as much more interesting in high school, whereas it seems that most students didn’t particularly enjoy the history of the fur and lumber trades in Canada (odd, that). Thinking about it now, though, I’m wondering why we didn’t study more of Canada’s political history back in high school. Some of the most interesting Canadian history I’ve learned is stuff that I read on my own during and after university.
Truth is, our history could be a much more interesting high school subject, depending on which parts of it you teach.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Nothing wrong with being boring, in fact, if being exciting means a lot of wars and social unrest, I’ll take boring over exciting, thank you very much. The EU is incredibly boring, but it’s also the best thing that ever happened to Europe. If you want excitement, go rent a DVD.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:11 am
The Liberals have gone to the left of the NDP on carbon pricing (which should be shameful for New Democrats, yet apparently isn’t).
I call bullshit.
The Liberals are promoting a carbon tax; this tax is both regressive and with a tax incidence that falls upon consumers.
The NDP has long supported a cap and trade plan, the tax incidence of which will fall on corporate polluters.
The Liberals have a long history of running to the left and governing from the right, so how the Liberal campaign is really of little consequence. Perfectly telling is that Stephane Dion was Canada’s Environment Minister, and did sweet fuck all to address Canada’s Kyoto requirements. Other than have Rick Mercer do some commercials urging Canadians to join the One Ton Challenge (which was never really explained), the Liberals did not do a single thing on carbon emissions between 1998 and their defeat in 2006. As a result, rather than cut emissions by 6% below 1990 levels (as required by Kyoto), under Liberal management, Canada’s emissions are actually *up* almost 30%. The fact is, on emissions, Canadians are among the very worst in the world, to the point where we make the US look better – and most of that is due to the Liberal inertia.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:54 am
As a Green Party supporter and constituent of Bob Rae in the proud, marijuana-tolerating, gay-pride celebrating, multi-cultural riding of Toronto Centre and I can tell you: Bob Rae sounds as out of touch to most Canadians as he would most Americans.
It happens that me and my venti-sipping, latte liberal co-constituents would never vote for a party other than the Liberals. It’s probably the safest Liberal party seat in Canada.
As an aside: Bob Rae is known widely as a spectacularly failed minority premier of Ontario whose poor economic leadership drove Ontario into a period of harsh conservative rule that gutted Ontario services from transit to welfare.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Re: Nothing wrong with being boring, in fact, if being exciting means a lot of wars and social unrest, I’ll take boring over exciting, thank you very much. The EU is incredibly boring, but it’s also the best thing that ever happened to Europe. If you want excitement, go rent a DVD.
Hear the words of a true believer of the modern hedonist dystopia. Someone who sees no value in virtue, struggle or sacrifice, and whose ultimate values are wealth, freedom and comfort. A clearer exception of the moral bankruptcy of liberal modernity is difficult to imagine. Of course, in Mr. Novakant’s cheerful garden-suburb dystopia lies the seeds of its own destruction. A hedonist society can never inspire the minds of its citizens in the same way that an austere society can, since hedonism undermines the very values that are needed to give people a sense of purpose in their lives and faith in the future. Hence, in the end the hedonist societies will always fall to the austere ones, in the same way that Rome fell to the Goths.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
The Canadian case is a very interesting one. Extremely, actually.
Generally, you’re going to see a lot of American comparisons in this election simply because Stephen Harper is probably the most Republican candidate Canada has ever seen. He styles himself as some sort of John Howard or Maggie Thatcher redux, but his policies and tactics (from what I’ve seen) come straight out of the Republican playbook.
What’s striking is that a party desperately running away from its own history of economic mismanagement would bring up that period. Bob Rae was premier, yes, but responsibility for the mess more likes in the hands of former conservative PM Brian Mulroney and his hand-picked cronies at the Canadian equivalent of the Fed. Harper was once best buddies with Mulroney, but Mulroney has been accused of doing very, very bad things on behalf of lobbyist buddies, so Harper has been avoiding him to avoid compounding his own scandal problems.
What’s also striking is the serious division on the left, which has supporters of the NDP savagely attacking the Liberals for generally-progressive policies that would be anathema to the right-wing Harper. Jack Layton and his party seems honestly willing to deliver a victory to Harper, if it gives his own party the opportunity to be the next British or Australian Labour Party.
(Case in point, McKingford there, who seems to think that Liberals’ past problems with climate change are somehow more damning that the conservatives’ open hostility to the very concept and close ties to the oil patch.)
The Liberals are having a hell of a time this time around, though, since they never really developed a netroots like the American one. They can’t use it to fundraise, they can’t use it to affect the agenda, and they can’t use it to identify and dispatch volunteers. All the things that Obama is using to win are pretty much out of reach, which is a major reason things are going so wrong for them.
In any case, it’s all symptoms of that old political science problem of a FPTP system with multiple parties. Either the system changes, or the parties collapse into two dominant ones. The former seems unlikely. The latter, possibly inevitable.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Oh, and in case you’re wondering about what that “blue sweater” thing is… the Conservatives rolled out a series of ads to try to make their scowling, prickly, take-no-prisoners leader seem more friendly and cuddly. He talks about his kids wearing a blue sweater-vest while soothing music plays in the background.
It, ah, hasn’t quite worked. To use an analogy I’ve read before: “if you give a wolf a poodle cut, you won’t get a poodle. You’ll just get a pissed-off wolf.”
September 19th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
“The Liberals are having a hell of a time this time around, though, since they never really developed a netroots like the American one. They can’t use it to fundraise, they can’t use it to affect the agenda, and they can’t use it to identify and dispatch volunteers. All the things that Obama is using to win are pretty much out of reach, which is a major reason things are going so wrong for them.”
I’m not sure this matters as much in Canada – campaign finance strictures are so confining that each party can easily raise the maximum allowed per riding (about 70k), obviating the need to raise more.
The netroots isn’t as crucial here because we are not (yet) fighting a culture war. The contrast between the elections is staggering, because it reveals the existence of a quite broad societal consensus in Canada that is lacking in the States.
September 19th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
(Case in point, McKingford there, who seems to think that Liberals’ past problems with climate change are somehow more damning that the conservatives’ open hostility to the very concept and close ties to the oil patch.)
I think you have misread the argument. If you want to argue that the Conservatives are terrible on the environment, you will get no argument from me.
But that wasn’t the issue in contention. The point I was arguing against was the claim that the Liberals were to the left of the NDP on carbon pricing. Relevant to that issue is their current proposals (in which I say that the NDP cap and trade proposal is more progressive than the Liberals’ carbon tax), in addition to the Liberals’ recent performance while in office.
If you want me to concede that the Liberals would be better than the Tories on carbon emissions, I will. But that’s a new argument, and not the one I was discussing.
September 19th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Labdancer wrote:
“Wait- Isn’t the Canadian band equivalent of Country Joe and the Fish called …Doug and the Fougs? If you were asked to think up what a “Foug” would look like, is this the guy?”
I think the Canadian band you meant was called “Doug and The Slugs”.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:12 am
Re: Hear the words of a true believer of the modern hedonist dystopia.
Hector, there’s something (a lot, really) to be said for pedestrian virtues, since for one thing that’s all most people are capable of. Besides which, with pedestrian virtues the worst you get are pedestrian vices. Few Mother Teresas to be sure, but also few Dr. Mengeles. And if “boring” is the price to pay for a land where most children are well-fed, healthy and well educated that’s hardly a ghastly price. Nor can any Christian desire injustice and misery, and definitely not to be afflicted on others!
Meanwhile if you want high drama and heroism and the resounding clash of Good and Evil you can always read/rent the Lord Of The Rings, or meditate on the death and resurrection of Christ.
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Además de poder escuchar la canción, descargarla o agregarla a tus listas preferidas puedes encontrar a otros usuarios y compartir tu música con ellos.
Hace mucho que no utilizo emule, sino este buscador de música.
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