Russia Gets Cheeky
Russian legislator calls for conditions-based withdrawal from Georgia, rejecting artificial timetables:
However, lawmaker Konstantin Kosachev, head of the Russian parliament’s foreign affairs committee, said Moscow will withdraw only when it is “assured that Georgians will not continue to use military force” in the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Russian troops will leave “sooner or later,” Kosachev said, saying the timetable depends “definitely on how Georgians will continue to behave.”
“If I would ask you in response to the same question how fast the American forces can leave Iraq, for example, the answer would be as soon as we have guarantees for peace and security there,” Kosachev said. “The same answer would be toward this situation.”
Now I think it would be silly to think that Putin would be more eager to withdraw from Georgia if the United States were willing to leave Iraq. The people running Russia are assertive nationalists just like the people running the United States, and neither group has any particular desire to do what other people want. It is, however, always worth recalling that it would be easier for the United States to rally an international coalition for the defense of sound international norms (don’t invade and occupy foreign countries on dubious pretexts, etc.) if we ourselves were not flagrant violators of those norms. At the end of the day, a world of universal or near-universal compliance with these norms is much better for the United States — and for justice, and for the world — than is a world of constant violation of the norms.
27 Responses to “Russia Gets Cheeky”
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August 18th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Umm, not so much. Europe is highly unlikely to respond all that strongly, given how much energy they get from Russia. They’ll push about as hard as we push on, say, Saudi Arabia.
IMHO, this is mostly a convenient kick by the Russians at a pro-Western nation in their “near abroad” - they were highly ticked off by our support of the Kosovars (given their historic support for the Serbs). They couldn’t do much about that, but Georgia gives them something nearby that they can tweak the West with at relatively low cost.
Long term, Russia is a paper tiger. They are suffering from a catastrophic demographic problem - their death rate is higher than their birth rate. Within a decade, it will be very, very hard for them to field any kind of military worth talking about.
August 18th, 2008 at 11:53 am
OMG. Who could have ever foreseen this happening?? Well, except for everybody but the brain dead neo-cons.
August 18th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Long term, Russia is a paper tiger. They are suffering from a catastrophic demographic problem - their death rate is higher than their birth rate. Within a decade, it will be very, very hard for them to field any kind of military worth talking about.
Maybe then they will just switch to old geezers pushing buttons on nuclear missile consoles.
August 18th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
And I am sure Putin probably told this guy to do it, too. The Russian legislature is about as independent as ours.
August 18th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
To Calvin (4):
You underestimate the Russian legislature.
They act within pre-determined boundaries, but their are a number of colorful characters there (to say the least) quite capable of producing an anti-American aphorism all by there lonesomes.
That’s why they put them there.
Don’t forget - Russia is not China - there is a large degree of freedom of expression - just not freedom to politically organize.
August 18th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
3. Dan
You’re living back in the 90’s. The death rate has stabilized, and there is a real focus on immigration of Russians in neighboring countries.
People have been thinking Russia was a have-been country since about the 16th century, and they always seem to pull a rabbit out of the hat.
In a word: Sputnik!
August 18th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Russia also appears to have followed the United State’s lead in fabricating evidence to justify their invasion. I suppose we can lend them some of our Iraqi informants to gin up some evidence if they have a hard time. Maybe Nigeria was selling yellowcake to South Ossetia as well.
August 18th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Oh so they want to be cheeky?
I’d point out just as they fought to keep Chechnya from seceding, Georgia can prevent those province from seceding. It’s an internal affair. Don’t mess with Georgia’s sovereignty!
Oh and by the way, we’re putting Ukraine and Georgia on the fast track to NATO.
How ya like them apples????
(you can stay in the G8 though)
August 18th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Regardless of the differing estimates of Ossetian casualties in the initial Georgian attack, there is little doubt that Georgia has been planning to attack Ossetia and Abkhaz for years now - and indeed did so a day or so after proclaiming the desire for a ceasefire. So the notion that Russia “fabricated evidence” to justify their invasion is bullshit.
In any event, the “real politik” about this is that Georgia is a neocon client state and the neocon purpose is to put NATO military bases on Russia’s borders. Naturally, Russia isn’t going to stand for that any more than the US stood for Russian missiles in Cuba.
As for Georgia on the “fast track” to NATO - dream on. Germany and France have serious reservations about that concept - and nobody is paying any attention to Bush these days.
August 18th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
@8 Peter
There were no Georgian peacekeepers to maintain order in Chechnya when it descended into total chaos under “autonomy”.
There were no Ossetians blowing up apartment buildings and killing thousands in Tblisi.
It was the Georgians bombing apartment buildings.
Kosovo is certainly the nearest comparison - dragging Chechnya into this situation is a serious distortion.
It’s as if the Cypriots bombed Turkish Larnaca and we faulted the Turks for reacting massively.
August 18th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Further to my 10.
“There were no Ossetians blowing up apartment buildings and killing thousands in Tblisi.”
Unlike the thousands who died in Moscow from Chechen terrorists.
August 18th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
I look at it this way - the longer Russia stays in Georgia, the less likely it is that the US or Israel will attack Iran, No-one in the Pentagon is going to allow four wars to be in progress while the US military is so stretched by two wars. Expect the Russians to quit Georgia proper on January 20th, 2009 if Obama wins and never if McCain wins.
August 18th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
LOL, Cheeky, looks like McSame kinda sorta LOL
RB
http://www.Privacy-Center.Net
August 18th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Did I miss something? Was Georgia in violation of several UN resolutions? Did they invade and take over Russia in recent history like IRAQ did with Kuwait? Did Georgia use chemical weapons on their neighbors and own people? You can’t compare the two, the international community was telling IRAQ to comply and they would not. In this case Russia has violated what the international community regards as the international territorial boundaries of Georgia.
August 19th, 2008 at 12:24 am
@Justin, Kuwait isn’t occupying Iraq, the U.S. is. Georgia invaded South Ossetia. It’s actually a direct parallel, unless I’m missing something. Russia is very clever justifying their occupation of Georgia based on the precedent the U.S. set in Iraq.
August 19th, 2008 at 1:59 am
August 18th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Justin Says:
Did I miss something?
Sure seems like it. In a sneak attack coinciding with the Olympic Opening Ceremony Georgian artillery nearly leveled Tshinvali killing over a thousand Russian citizens that lived there. The footage of destroyed towns that the US media is showing claiming how horrible Russia is? Yeah, that would be Tshinvali you dumbasses, destruction done by Saakashvili your ‘democratic ally’.
Its more of a parallel with the 9/11 attacks, a horrifying unprovoked terrorist incident followed up by a relentless and crushing military counterattack as a response.
Did Georgia use chemical weapons on their neighbors and own people? They used high explosive shells and rocket warheads to blow them to pieces, does that not count? Funnily enough, just like when Saddam used “Made in the USA!” brand gas to murder kurds and iranians (with full US backing and support from notable people connected to the present day govt like Rumsfeld and Cheney), Saakashvili has also used US weapons to murder the helpless - while the US govt cheers him on just like they did with Saddam back in the day.
Real nice bunch of people, the georgians. “Hey this Mikheil Saakashvili guy can speak English, has white skin, and looks good in a suit behind a podium, he must not be a bad guy or a terrorist at all!!” Is that how things work?
August 19th, 2008 at 2:01 am
@9
Good to see that at least one person here is informed.
August 19th, 2008 at 5:34 am
I’m from Germany and shocked when i heard our Chancelor Merkes speaking about “support for Georgia an there’s no doubt about the integrity and sovereignty of Georgia - South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Georgia” - WHAT does she know? DOES not the will of the people living there count? WHAT’S with the U.S.A, didn’t they fight for their independance (they had allies, too) - helping Georgia to supress these people is like helping England to supress the Americans back in 1775-1783 … I would never shoot the Bavarians (e.g.) if the decided to be independend.
August 19th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Abkhazia and South Ossetia (as well as Adjaria) - were autonomous territories even during the days of the Soviet Union. When Georgia announced it’s independence - it anulled their autonomy, with the famous “In georgia - there are only georgians” quote to go along with it. Not suprisingly - the former autonomous territories did not go along with that decision, hence the ceaseless warfare. Look it up, it’s in the wikipedia as well. Further complicating this picture of perfect Georgian land - is the fact that the territories are fairly ethnically different from the main Georgia - containing large percentages of russians, among other nationalities.
So it’s not like there’s some undisputed reason why this territory belongs to Georgia - they just choose to draw their borders a particular way, while understandably the separatists don’t quite agree.
August 19th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Anyway, all the criticism towards Russia may have its place if Russia plans to occupy Georgia. But that remains to be seen, and so far i haven’t personally heard of any intentions to do that. Russian forces will withdraw, just not tripping over themselves in a hurry because Bush said so.
Saakashvili commited a war crime ordering artillery attack on civilian population. It wasn’t even collateral damage - it was a dirrect strike on a capital city.
I am really surprised how there are still some people around the message boards (and apparently in government and news media) - who somehow feel that territorial claims justify commiting atrocities.
By the way - one of Saakashvili’s election promises - was “only peaceful diplomatic solution to the Abkhazia and Ossetia problems”. Also wikipedia - look it up.
August 19th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
to Russian Aggressor: right on. just want to add that us and pretty much all western media dont even mention the fact that Abkhazia was attacked first. Free and objective press at work. And ahead of all channels, main democratic freedom protector: CNN! As for Saakashvili, i dont think he is mentally sound.Another beautiful addition to the Bush’s circle of friends. One uglier than the other. Did u see that cheesy meeting of “freedom fighting” presidents in Tbilisy? Poland, Ukraine and so on. It looked like a freak show. F. Nazcys…
August 19th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Here’s a pretty decent explanation of the conflict that i agree with and wouldn’t be able to word better myself:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/600/42/370026.htm
The article fails however to mention the innocent lives lost. Maybe it wasn’t the topic.
On related note - it’s actually quite curious how the Ossetian civilian losses caused by the use of August 7 georgian truck-mounted rocket assault on a densely populated city hardly get any mention at all during the news broadcasts here in US. Could it be that if those casualties were to be acknowledged - then the question of war crimes wouldn’t be far behind?
Ask yourself, whether you’d feel differently about the territorial struggle of Georgia - if it were your family peaceful homes who were the target of military assault.
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