Iraq and Georgia
Victor Davis Hanson is predictably furious at suggestions that Americans rightly appalled at Russia’s conduct in Georgia should consider the importance of us leading by example and not mounting unilateral invasions of our own:
Let me get this straight: getting a Senate and House majority to authorize a bipartisan joint war-resolution, going to the UN, assembling a coalition, having a national and world debate on the wisdom of such an operation from December 2001 to March 2003, and then attacking a genocidal dictator, and staying on to foster a constitutional democracy are apparently the same “charge” “example” as an autocracy suddenly invading its democratic neighbor during the Olympics, and staying on to annex some of its territory?
It’s noteworthy that the vast majority of considerations Hanson brings to bear here are plainly irrelevant. House and Senate votes? Olympics? So what? Similarly, the idea that the mere existence of a worldwide debate — a debate in which the vast majority of the world lined up on the “don’t invade” side — legitimizes the Iraq invasion is laughable. The other considerations Hanson has on tap are substantive ones. He thinks, wrongly, that the invasion of Iraq was wise and moral.
That’s an important debate to have. But the procedural issue Hanson tries to skirt with hand-waving references to the Olympics is important as well. To make a long story short, Hanson’s preferred international rule is “the United States can invade weaker countries when it wants to, but other countries can’t.” The merits of that position aside, it’s clearly not going to attract any support in Moscow or Beijing or, for that matter, Paris or New Delhi or Brasilia or Pretoria. In effect Hanson is asking for a world in which the United States invades where we please but Russia and China and other major countries also invade where they please, and then Hanson rages impotently against the injustice of it all. An alternative proposal would be for the United States to try to work with the other major powers on developing a set of international rules of the road we can all live with — probably a procedural rule based on the United Nations Charter or else perhaps a sphere of influence rule — and that also allows us to cooperate on major issues such as nuclear proliferation, climate change, terrorism, economic development, and epidemic disease.
79 Responses to “Iraq and Georgia”
Register
RSSLogin
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog RollAbout Matt YglesiasContact Me
Donate
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Great Post
If you want more on what Georgia was thinking when attacked this piece in the FT is important:
Tbilisi admits misjudging Russia
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0d8beefe-6fad-11dd-986f-0000779fd18c.html
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:34 pm
good lord–is old v.d. hanson still around?
first a failed academic, then a failed armchair-warrior, now a failed pundit–do we still have to listen to him?
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Well, Victor, perhaps the Russians took your advice to heart. The part about how One Big Battle that demonstrates one side’s vast superiority is actually more humane than allowing low-level hostilities to continue.
Or maybe Putin, like you, is a two-bit thug who blows smoke to hide the fact that he just gets off on seeing is guyz blow up doze other guyz.
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
The title of the piece. A Pavlovian Response, is funny.
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:47 pm
The US public believes in the Pax Americana, that’s why the support for the Iraq invasion was so strong. It just denies this, especially when things go wrong.
The only difference is that Hanson is willing to admit it and the rest of us aren’t.
Both Obama and McCain are promising to increase military spending, as if spending as much as the rest of the world combined wasn’t enough already.
People (implicitly) believe that the only way to maintain our expansive lifestyle is by being the world’s only superpower. And the way to do this is through unchallengeable military superiority. Soft power, invasion, it doesn’t matter what we do as long as we can keep driving SUV’s and living in McMansions.
Unfortunately for us the rest of the world is starting to develop the ability to counter our strength through economic means. No pol is willing to address the new reality. The consequences won’t be pretty.
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Or maybe Putin, like you, is a two-bit thug who blows smoke to hide the fact that he just gets off on seeing is guyz blow up doze other guyz.
And yet the “anti-war” left is rationalizing Putin’s behaviour just as they minimized how bad Saddam was.
Would Obama say the same thing about Kosovo? Or is this just politics, playing to the anti-war side before picking pro-war Bayh?
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:55 pm
It was Barry that brought up the fact that the world was focused on the Olympics dumbass.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:04 pm
I see joe from Lowell is also familiar with VDH!
That guy is a Republican loyalist first and a historian second. My guess is that if McCain was backing Russia then Georgia would be Sparta, South Ossetia would be Messenia, and Putin the great liberator Epaminondas.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:04 pm
The administration is always touting our ability to debate as justification for their actions even though public opinion is firmly against them. Bush grandly allows us the right to dissent even while ignoring public opinion, common sense, and the very Constitution in his pursuit of megalomaniacal power. The public comment periods required by law exist merely so the administration can assemble a list of maladjusts for future surveillance. Even if the comments run 9 to 1 against, the administration will not consider changing the proposed policy one bit.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:07 pm
I forgot to add that I am a paranoid asshat.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Putin staged his invasion during the Olympics in order to blunt world opinion. The American President was slapping the butts of beach volleyball players. The press around the world was concentrated on the games.
However, that PR aspect of the timing of the invasion doesn’t really weigh into the moral or practical questions of whether the invasion was justified or warranted. Should we get kudos for not waiting until the Olympics to invade Iraq?
I’m personally finding it hard to come to an understanding of the truth of the situation. Both Russia and Georgia are outright lying about the situation on the ground. Some of the only good reporting I’ve seen has been from McClatchy who actually has reporters in the area and out of the direct control of either military.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:10 pm
I’m honored to be spoofed!
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Perhaps he needs a time out, or a new nappy.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:13 pm
If I tilt my tinfoil hat just right I can pick up McClatchy news broadcasts in my bottom fillings, thats how I know. I’m also jealous that the girls volleyball team got their asses slapped instead of me.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:16 pm
“I’m honored to be spoofed!”
I’m also a schizophrenic, who often doesnt remember what each personality is doing.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Actually, Hanson’s not an historian, he’s a classicist — there’s a big difference in training: classics people tend to focus more exclusively on the quality of a limited number of texts in Greek and Latin, whereas historians spend much of their time dealing with the extremely vast number of documents produced by human history over the whole world. History values context a lot more, I would say.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Is this post represenative of Heads in the Sand? Because if so, I may have to finally go out and buy it…
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Hanson mentions going to the UN but doesn’t acknowledge that the UN said “No”.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Allow me to suggest a labor-saving device. You really need only one all-purpose comment to respond to anything VDH writes: “Victor Davis Hanson is insane and a fucking idiot to boot.”
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:56 pm
LaBonne??? – Fuck off frenchy.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:59 pm
And yet the “anti-war” left is rationalizing Putin’s behaviour just as they minimized how bad Saddam was.
True, in the sense that they neither minimized how bad Saddam was, not justified Putin’s behavior.
0=0. Congratulations, you’re finally right about something.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Hey, Russia is just following the Neo-Con Guide to Foreign Relations. Sometimes you have to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Contrasting with Iraq is not nearly as accurate as doing so with Yugoslavia in the 90’s. That is how the Russians see it and have said so publicly. They overtook a breakaway area with the claim that they were just saving them from genocide of the majority population.
The problem for partisans is obvious, it is Clinton’s policy that is being held out as an example of US hypocracy, but it doesn’t fit into the “Blame everything on Bush” talking point
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:16 pm
http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373298
As anticipated (see EDM, July 11, August 4) Moscow has initiated an offensive military operation by proxy against Georgia in South Ossetia. Although the blow had been expected in upper Abkhazia and may yet materialize there, Russia shifted the direction of attack to the South Ossetian front.
The brazen attacks during the night of August 7 to 8 in South Ossetia left Tbilisi with no choice but to respond. Continuing Georgian restraint would have resulted in irreparable human, territorial, and political losses. Moscow’s military and propaganda operation bears the hallmarks of its blitzkriegs in Transnistria in 1992 and Abkhazia in 1993. Georgia’s defensive response in South Ossetia since August 8 is legally within the country’s rights under international law and militarily commensurate with the attacks.
———————–
The above is a detailed account of the lead-up to the Georgian invasion.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Since we believe in democracy so much why not let the people on South Ossetia just vote on what they want to do? Oh that’s right I forgot they don’t actually wnat to be part of Georgia so that won’t work. We just need to make sure that the democratic country of Georgia maintain its territoral integrity not its democratic integrity.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Sometimes you have to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall.
And if there’s oil involved, so much the better (Georgia has an oil pipeline which, AFAIK, is the only route for Caspian crude to leave the region without passing through Russia).
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
“The problem for partisans is obvious, it is Clinton’s policy that is being held out as an example of US hypocracy, but it doesn’t fit into the “Blame everything on Bush” talking point”
But since Clinton isn’t President anymore, and since the Kosovo operation was actually relatively popular with the rest of the world, it would have been a simple task for President Bush to deflect and defuse Russian excuses.
It is the actions of the Bush administration that have crippled America’s moral standing and influence in the world. It is the actions of the Bush administration that has tied up our military in Iraq and paralyzed our ability to respond to something like the Georgia situation.
The suggestion that somehow Putin and his toy president were going to win the global PR war over Georgia by invoking Clinton’s Kosovo bombing is laughable.
Mike
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
The problem for partisans is obvious, it is Clinton’s policy that is being held out as an example of US hypocracy, but it doesn’t fit into the “Blame everything on Bush” talking point
Right. Leading by example means ignoring the UN over Kosovo. Hanson should have pointed to that but he’s a moron. Plus conservatives at the time were bashing Clinton over Kosovo. Why should we give a shit about the Kosavars? Same thing you hear from certain callous liberals about Georgia. It’s cynical.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:33 pm
I hate this moral equivalent arguement of the left (Iraq = Georgia). Thanks for pointing out the ignorance of the left on these issues. It is not bad/evil USA…it is USA a power for good in the world. If the left finally gets it they may actually win some presidential electrions Idiots!
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Wow, your article worked just like Borat. Publish a serious sounding but ludicrous position to see what kind of morons will come out of the woodwork to agree with you. Good show.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:45 pm
The lesson the Russians learned from the Iraq war is that some folks, when it serves their domestic purposes, will only cry foul when the Americans do things. Perhaps they don’t see the subtleties of Western debate, perhaps they know us all too well.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
The lesson the Russians learned from the Iraq war is that some folks, when it serves their domestic purposes
I love the use of “some folks” when used in a comment decrying American political debate.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:50 pm
A war with Russia would look more like Threads and The Day After rather than Hanson’s favorite movie 300. But if there are survivors the would revert to looking a set out of 300 including all the deformed freaks.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Mr. Yglesias – It didn’t take you long to start parroting the official Soviet, oops, I mean Russian line that the Georgia war is the moral equivalent of Iraq, did it?
If you would like to understand why this is a ludicrous position, check out my blog entry: http://sanityinjection.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/georgia-part-iii-rejecting-russianleftist-claims-of-moral-equivalency/
It contains a link to a column by a British analyst, which should be helpful since you folks on the left think Europeans always know better than Americans about everything.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:52 pm
A war with Russia would look more like “Threads” and “The Day After” rather than Hanson’s favorite movie “300.” But if there are survivors the would revert to looking a set out of “300″ including all the deformed freaks.
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Let’s flip this over. How can good, conscientious progressives criticize President Bush but defend Russia?
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Let’s flip this over. How can good, conscientious progressives criticize President Bush but defend Russia?
Who are the good conscientious progressives defending Russia?
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Besides the moral hypocrisy of this blog… the question is who benefited from this conflict, given that there are now missiles in Poland and McCain just had his first lead on Obama? Next, Russian missiles will be back in Cuba.
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Here’s what I don’t understand….everyone who was against the Iraq war (for justifiable reasons IMHO) was outraged at America. Millions took to the streets in Europe and the U.S., and America is universally hated throughout the world for having invaded Iraq. Yet with Russia, not a peep from anyone. No demonstrations, just nothing. At this point (now that Russia has taken over Georgia’s pipeline and occupied many cities far beyond S. Ossetia) Russia can no longer claim its invasion was self defense. They are acting as a predator in this case, not unlike the U.S. in Iraq, yet no one is speaking out against Russia as they do the U.S. Anyone against the war in Iraq yet defending Russia’s Georgian adventure is a hypocrite in my view.
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:26 pm
This author is incredibly naive. So is that VD Hanson guy though. Wars and human suffering are, unfortunately, inevitable. Pretending that every conflict is going to be resolved through some sort of international charter is a joke. Let’s move past this dreamland. Oh, and McCain benefited because Obama fumbled.
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:30 pm
The witlessness of Republican commentators never ceases to amaze. We’re saying that the best safeguard against big countries invading little ones at will is to set up international safeguards against…big countries invading little countries. The Bush invasion of Iraq made things like the Russian invasion of Georgia easier to accomplish and removed our moral leverage. Bush and his cronies led the Georgians into believing that they had backup which they didn’t have. Bush/McCain were making threats that they had no intention of following up on.
Unless, of course, you’re a Republican. In which case it’s OK when we do something and not-OK when another country does something because we’re Good and they’re Evil. Pointing out that no one in the world takes us seriously because we also invaded another country gets morphed into buying the Russian line, blah blah blah. But we’re talking about Bush supporters, so I guess we can understand the confusion.
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:31 pm
now that Russia has taken over Georgia’s pipeline and occupied many cities far beyond S. Ossetia
…because American news are 99% propaganda, so relax… Georgia still has its pipeline and Russian peacekeepers are back to S.Ossetia.
They are acting as a predator in this case, not unlike the U.S. in Iraq
Americans learn a new country when US invades it to “protect it’s interests”. S.Ossetia-Georgia conflict is 200 years old.
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:33 pm
“…— a debate in which the vast majority of the world lined up on the “don’t invade” side —…”
Odd that you can get United Nations approval, who in the eyes of the left represent the “vast majority of the world” and according to them should have lots more influence over what we do, for the invasion of Iraq. You guys need to decide what you want and get consistent!
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Fox news brainwashing goes wrong…
and the truth about WHO started the war in South Ossetia comes out…
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Basically Inglesias wants us to come together with Putin and
the Premier of China hold hands and sing “All we are saying is give peace a chance.”
Can anyone imagine Putin in the John Lennon role. Give me a break!
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Fox news brainwashing goes wrong…
and the truth about WHO started the war in South Ossetia comes out…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Russia can no longer claim its invasion was self defense. They are acting as a predator in this case, not unlike the U.S. in Iraq, yet no one is speaking out against Russia as they do the U.S.
It’s okay to act like a predator if you’re not the U.S. Since the US is top dog and supposed to lead by example, the US can be used as an alibi for bad behavior. It’s okay if Saddam is a predator and annexes Kuwait. It’s okay if Putin is a predator and occupies a democracy and member of the UN. These are just opportunities to make fun of Bush.
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:49 pm
The author is right. There are no obvious parallels between Iraq and Georgia. To compare these two, Iraqi need to live in Mexico, bomb Houston for 14 hours, killing >1000 of poor Texans and form an alliance with Chavez and Castro to install missiles on the Texas border.
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Republicans are so consistently idiots, it’s truly amazing. So if you take the bad situation of using Russia’s invasion of Georgia to criticize America’s invasion of Iraq or intervention in Kosovo, you’re apologizing for Putin.
Let me give you guys a hint: I think George Bush is a war criminal! You might disagree that Putin is comparable to Bush, but you shouldn’t assume that I’m making any apologies for Putin by performing the comparison. Is it possible for these people to make more than one step in a line of reasoning before the whole line of thought collapses into their nationalistic world view?
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:02 pm
9-11 really did happen numbskulls, we have the right to defend ourselves in the manner we see fit and screw the UN they are th lifeless meaningless pile of Garbage they always were and will be. Your people are the kind who would wait until the tanks are on the beaches of Long Island to say Oh maybe we should do something. Putin will continue don’t keep you head in the sand.
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:14 pm
This is the most blind little essay I have read in a long time. If your logic is to be followed, then the US has every right to over run Cuba because they are close and we do not like them. I think not. So long as Cuba does not make overt military moves against us, we have no right to do to them what Russia is during to Georgia. What Russia is doing is something that will cause them trouble and resentment for a long time. As Tallyrand said of one of Napoleon’s rash adventures, “It was worse than immoral, it was a mistake.” And so it is with Putin.
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:15 pm
What a brilliant idea!? That is if somebody like the US is willing to kick your teeth in when you don’t follow those rules and sing cumbaya in tune. Until then, the real world will dictate that the stronger powers do what they must/want based on what they perceive to be their own best interests.
VDH’s point is that the Russians didn’t even try to follow any rules. So yeah, go get the UN to solve this one. You people are idiots.
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:36 pm
To John Kelly:
“we have no right to do to them what Russia is during to Georgia”
What Russia IS doing to Georgia? Destroying its military infrastructure… that’s it. Everything else you see on TV is American and Georgian propaganda. Look here for a change:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ
Georgia started the conflict by bombing an Ossetian town where Russian peacekeepers were stationed and Russian citizen lived.
How is Cuba bombing Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp for analogy? What would US do? It would be a dream come true for W and his military cronies.
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:42 pm
An alternative proposal would be for the United States to try to work with the other major powers on developing a set of international rules of the road we can all live with — probably a procedural rule based on the United Nations Charter or else perhaps a sphere of influence rule — and that also allows us to cooperate on major issues such as nuclear proliferation, climate change, terrorism, economic development, and epidemic disease.
How idiotic.
The goal of the US in this instance has been to build a coalition willing and able to deter Russian agression.
Russia’s has effectively shown how toothless those agreements have were, and to both leverage and utilize its energy production.
Russian intent was to oppose American & European aims. To fail to recognize this is idiotic; to suppose the failure is a lack of ability to communicate – fatuous.
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:58 pm
While one could easily dissect the US led invasion of Iraq with the goal of drawing what are frankly intellectually weak parallels to the Russian invasion of Georgia, the question naturally begged in doing so is…what would have made the US led invasion sufficiently different enough in hazey minds of the moral equivalence crowd as to, in contrast to the Russian invasion, stand as justifiable?? How many security council resolutions are needed? 5, 10? How many did Iraq ignore…how many has Georgia ingnored? None last I checked. Putting our views of the rightness or wrongness of the Iraq war aside, what specifically WOULD have made it ‘good?’ If tons of nerve gas were found? If a few more mass graves were dug up? If the French agreed? If Iraq were ‘next door?’ Maybe if a poll of hollywood’s elite was found to be supportive? The problem with this “America is just as bad” mind set is that the fundamental logic supporting it would make any action beyond our borders innately wrong unless the Euro’s and the left like it. Ultimately the reason behind this way of looking at the affairs of nations is to avoid taking a stand, to give a wide birth to the monsters we fear by belittling the ones we we have no reason to fear in the ill advised belief that that will somehow garner the monster’s favor.
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:59 pm
From Hanson’s Wikipedia entry:
Hanson is a registered Democrat, but a conservative who voted for George W. Bush in the 2000 and 2004 elections. He is not a neoconservative, though he agrees with some neoconservative views. Feeling that the current Democratic party does not have a morally responsible approach to foreign policy and no longer addresses the concerns of ordinary Americans, Hanson writes: “The Democratic Party reminds me of the Republicans circa 1965 or so—impotent, shrill, no ideas, conspiratorial, reactive, out-of-touch with most Americans, isolationist, and full of embarrassing spokesmen.”
Hanson sees rural values as underpinning successful democracies, whether they be of ancient Athens or the modern United States. He writes that America has remained democratic despite the loss of rural values but the democratic ethos is now very different from in the past.
August 22nd, 2008 at 6:18 pm
If it’s not clear by now, I’ll be explicit: the left has given the impression that it does not give a damn about the Iraqis all the while feigning the moral high ground in every debate on the subject.
Iraq: No more apologies
August 22nd, 2008 at 6:19 pm
It’s amazing how many dead-enders there are still. I haven’t heard from them in so long because I think many of the usual trolls have given up the fight. But criticize the wrong hero and you draw their ire in mass…
August 22nd, 2008 at 7:50 pm
But since Clinton isn’t President anymore, and since the Kosovo operation was actually relatively popular with the rest of the world, it would have been a simple task for President Bush to deflect and defuse Russian excuses.
It is the actions of the Bush administration that have crippled America’s moral standing and influence in the world. It is the actions of the Bush administration that has tied up our military in Iraq and paralyzed our ability to respond to something like the Georgia situation.
No kidding Clinton isn’t President, however, history has shown us that those who ruled England and France during WW I influenced the actions of the Germans long after their reign of power ended.I also don’t think the Russians really care about who was President when NATO bombed Serbia, the overall philosophy of NATO isn’t that drastically different ten years after the fact.
Secondly, the bombing of Yugoslavia was not popular with the Russians nor was it popular with the Chinese, we bombed their embassy during that war. It was popular with a certain class of Europeans who found allegations (which were never proven according Chomsky) of genocide on European soil worthy of action, yet ignored it when it happenned in places where skin tone is a bit darker than that of Northern Italians (think of the Kurds, or Rwandians)
Also, this drumbeat about the US being in Iraq is a very irrelevent arguement. For it to be relevent, it would need to be based upon the assumption that if we were not in Iraq, and the Russians invaded Georgia, then the US would have put the use of force, or at least the threat of such force, against Russia on the table. Unless those who harp about our lack of military power are ready to admit to such a militaristic mindset, they should stop bringing up an option they are thoroughly unprepared and unwilling to use.
August 22nd, 2008 at 11:47 pm
US invading Iraq vs. Russia invading Georgia:
In terms of suffering caused to the greatest number of people:
Both were bad but the invasion of Iraq was worse.
In terms of human suffering and damage done to the invaded country on a per/population basis:
Both were bad but the invasion of Iraq was worse.
In terms of distance between the publicly professed benign intent and the intent as judged through actual decisions made:
Both were bad but the invasion of Iraq was worse.
In terms of undermining democratic aspirations of the invading country:
Both were bad but the invasion of Iraq was worse.
In terms of suffering and damage done to the people of the invading country:
Both were bad but the invasion of Iraq was worse.
In terms of destabilizing a geopolitical region that could in the future harm both the invaded, invadees, and the nations surrounding the invaded nation:
Both were bad and we’ll see about the future, but probably the invasion of Iraq was worse.
Post script:
I can relate to the inability for abstract thought and emotional maturity of, for instance, a 5 year old. But I really can’t tell what’s going on inside the heads of the posters here who have stated that “the left takes Russia’s side but doesn’t support the US against Iraq”.
Like, what can happen to a brain that makes it interested enough in politics to read a blog like this and attempt to be informed about the world and create, nay write down, thoughts that are so painstakingly ornamented with ignorance, delusion, and stupidity. I’m baffled. Granted, the anti-left posters here obviously aren’t the “intelligent conservative” crowd, but still. At least demonstrate the ability to understand your opponents’ argument. Are they not even aware that they don’t understand it? Can you be that illiterate?
August 23rd, 2008 at 12:11 am
b9n10t,
Your first point is pointless. It’s like saying that the US effort in WWII was the worst of the three because so many more people suffered and died in that war.
Point number two is pointless as well. The people of Iraq were suffering and that was going to happen with or without an invasion. At least now Iraq’s neighbors don’t have to worry about being invaded by Iraq so in reality the suffering quotient was reduced by the invasion of Iraq. On the flip side, the invasion of Georgia increased suffering.
Point three isn’t even worth a rebuttal.
Point four, how in the world was the invasion of Iraq worse for American democratic aspirations than the invasion of Georgia for Russian democratic aspirations? One would have to assume that Russia has democratic aspirations…
Point five, you finally got something right but only on the face of it. Since democracy in America is no worse off we can recover any time we wish. In Russia, Putin has his boot on his people’s necks… Who would prefer to be Russian rather than American for the next ten years?
Point six, like you said, we’ll have to wait and see. Besides, there is so much left to happen that can and probably will affect the outcomes that we have to keep playing the game because it isn’t over. It’s never over.
Post Script
I repeat, you people are idiots.
August 23rd, 2008 at 1:00 am
Your first point is pointless. It’s like saying that the US effort in WWII was the worst of the three because so many more people suffered and died in that war.
We’re the idiots? Who do you think started the Iraq war? The whole criticism of the Iraq War starts from the argument that it was a war of choice. In this manner, WWII was pretty qualitatively different. But if you choose to invade a country that is not currently at war with you, you have to justify your actions in the face of the deaths caused. This is about as simple as a concept gets.
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:15 am
Einar:
It’s like saying that the US effort in WWII was the worst of the three because so many more people suffered and died in that war.
For this to be true, Iraq 2003 would have to be the equivalent of 40’s Germany. I mean that’s not even remotely sane.
The people of Iraq were suffering and that was going to happen with or without an invasion. At least now Iraq’s neighbors don’t have to worry about being invaded by Iraq…
The people of Iraq experienced sharp increases in mortality, poverty, stress, and displacement as well as political repression because of the US invasion. Saddam was an evil dictator. The US actually managed to make the situation worse. And Iraq’s neighbors, nations that in the recent past had been invaded by Iraq, opposed the US invasion. Iran, Kuwait. The Arab states were uniformly against it.
Point three isn’t even worth a rebuttal.
Why? At least show me that you comprehend it.
Point four, how in the world was the invasion of Iraq worse for American democratic aspirations than the invasion of Georgia for Russian democratic aspirations? One would have to assume that Russia has democratic aspirations…
This point actually rests on the assumption that the US has a much higher democratic potential than Russia. The US invasion of Iraq undermined US democracy because the invasion’s justification was a fraud. Bush lied. The ruling elites mislead the public into a war of choice. Consciously. If the ruling elites had come to power as a military coup: well, there was no effective popular will to thwart in the first place. But Bush and the neocons came into office having lost the popular vote but at least having been elected by essentially half the country. The Congress that passed the Authorization was elected. The fraud entailed the manipulation of the (already subservient to Washington) media, whose effectiveness as a public institution has democratic ramifications. Again, in Russia, the media has far less further to fall.
Furthermore, the conduct of this war has enabled the undermining of the Constitution (which will be bulwark or our republican democracy if we ever get it), enabled repressive state institutions, enabled vast amounts of public corruption, and made a much greater share of what the government does obscure and unaccountable to its citizens (such is the nature of war and the culture of militarism).
Finally, (remember I’m contrasting the US to Russia) the Russian invasion of Georgia is very popular in Russia. The US invasion of Iraq is not very popular and only had about 50% support among the US citizenry at its inception.
August 24th, 2008 at 10:06 am
Great Post.
http://www.piriketseverler.tr.gg/Site-Haritasi.htm
August 24th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
b9n10t,
You disqualify Germany because it is of a different scale but do compare Georgia…?
The second paragraph goes straight to the point. Only an idiot would expect things to improve in the short term during a war. Realistically, things get worse during wars. It is the long term outcome that they should be judged by. My bet is that Iraq will look a heck of lot better in 10-20-50 years than it would have if there had been no war. Try to say the same about South Ossetia.
It’s funny that for all of the “Bush Lied” and undermined our democracy charges there have been no real, wait for it, charges… PROVE you are not lying about Bush lying and take it to court. Certainly with a Dem Congress this should be doable if there is any kind of proof at all. Until that happens you should get a job inflating balloons.
The fact is that Russia had turned democratic but Putin undermined that and has used wars to strengthen and solidify his hold on power. For all of your hot air you can’t say the same about Bush. Come this time next year Bush will be retired whether we invaded Iraq or not, whether we won or lost. Putin on the other hand, he’s served his term(s) and still has power.
A reminder of what kind of government we don’t have – it is not a direct democracy. The popularity of a particular issue or war doesn’t get voted on. We elect people to represent and lead. That is how it worked and works. If you don’t like that move to another country that has the form of government you think you want.
Number three, be specific and make a point by point comparison of what was said and what was done. My assumption is that you are talking about oil. How much oil have we taken from Iraq? What else is in Iraq for us to want? I think you just can’t stand that a Rep did it instead of a Dem (bombing Serbia was okay with you I’ll bet).
November 22nd, 2008 at 4:18 am
Very Good job.
November 28th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
good lord–is old v.d.
GO WEBSİTE
November 28th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
http://www.makkale.blogcu.com
December 6th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
http://liginmaclari.blogcu.com/ankaragucu-galatasaray-canli-izle-ankaragucu-galatasaray-macini-canli-izle-ankaragucu-galatasaray-online-izle-ankaragucu-galatasaray-lig-tv-izle_30604141.html
March 2nd, 2009 at 7:02 am
levitraI want to say – thank you for this!
March 11th, 2009 at 6:05 am
If you have to do it, you might as well do it right
March 14th, 2009 at 7:09 am
Great site. Good info
xanax
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:54 am
tramadol
Excellent site. It was pleasant to me.
April 2nd, 2009 at 6:38 am
I bookmarked this site. Thank you for good job!
buy cheap viagra
April 9th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
I bookmarked this site, Thank you for good job! viagra
April 14th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Incredible site!
viagra