Matthew Yglesias » How Quickly We Forget

Aug 13th, 2008 at 4:40 pm

How Quickly We Forget

Watch in amazement as John McCain condemns Russia for having the temerity to cross an international boundary — “in the 21st century, nations don’t invade other nations.”

We all recall, of course, John McCain’s outrage when the United States violated this rule back in 2003.

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50 Responses to “How Quickly We Forget”

Grand Moff Texan Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Yes, and the McCain campaign accused Obama of launching political attacks during the crisis … after accusing Obama of being “in sync with Moscow.”

John McCain: too fucking senile to remember what he just said.
.
kid bitzer Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
agreed, it’s nauseating.

but it’s not going to lose him a single vote, either in the actual electorate, or in his inner circle of worshipers, a.k.a. the washington press elite.

the belief that we are above the law is sufficiently ingrained that most people won’t even see a problem here, or will take your finding it problematic as a sign that you hate america.
Mark Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
This is absurd. America is in fact the world’s last, best hope. We didn’t invade anyone–we liberate. As a matter of fact America is quite intentionally helping spark a democratic revolution in the middle east because America has always been in the business of spreading democracy. Sometimes we love democracy too much and make certain mistakes. But no one can doubt that the reason for why we do what we do relates entirely to our historical and providential mission to spread liberty across the globe. America is a moral force. For America, Liberty has always been job one.
Octavian Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Wow.
Mark Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
To add let me just re-post a comment from an earlier thread, by Peter K:

“The Cato dude links to Bay of Pigs, but that was a long time ago - during the Cold War - when has the US recently undermined a democratic country?”

Of course I’ll do Peter one better–Castro wasn’t democratically elected. So in fact the United States has never ever undermined a single democratic government. And why would we when, to paraphrase Andrew Sullivan, Democracy-spreading is what American foreign policy is all about.
sherifffruitfly Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
I think he honestly can’t remember that far back. And all of his comments are based upon his gut feeling about what he *thinks* he thinks based upon extrapolating from what his interlocutor says.
Toady Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
In 1984, Daniel Ortega won 63% of the vote.
raff Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Last night Jon Stewart had a clip of a McCain aide (I forget who) saying basically the same thing, but adding a caveat: “in the 21st century, nations don’t invade other nations… in Europe.”

McCain obviously just forgot the last part of his talking point. So, invasion in Europe in the 21st century? No dice. In the Mid East? Meh, not so much.
Warmwaterpenguin Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
@Mark

We’ve undermined our fair share of liberty when it was in our interests. Lasting, stable, functional democracies form when the people themselves make them, when those people in the employ of a corrupt government choose to support their fellow man over their orders. This has been the case with every successful democracy on earth. Occasionally a Tieneman Square happens where the tank drivers decide to say no, they won’t run over their countrymen and regimes are toppled.

We don’t mobilize to spread democracy. We mobilize for our interests or the interests of our leaders or both. This has always been the case. We don’t plant functional democracies; we use democracy as a cover from which we can plant puppet friends.
Toady Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Heh, didn’t notice the Arbenz portrait in the next post down. 60% of the vote in 1950.
Curtis Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Didn’t we support Pinochet’s toppling of Allende in Chile? I don’t know for certain that Allende was elected, but I certainly thought so.
Peter K. Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
During the Cold War the US undermined plenty of democratic governments, especially when they were leftist or “communist”. But the Cold War is over.

Now it’s done through “color” revolutions which anti-war people dislike for some reason (maybe b/c neocons beat their chests about them).

I agree McCain is being hypocritical - god I hope he loses- but my favorite is the Russians going on about human rights - when during the 90s they leveled Chechnya and slaughtered civilians there. Plus they provided diplomatic cover for the Serbs’ ethnic cleansings (not to mention Sudan, etc.)
Curtis Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
And isn’t Georgia in Asia? I know I can’t keep all of my former Soviet states straight, but I thought Georgia was Asian.
Mark Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
I agree completely. Of course some say Hamas was “democratically elected” but there’s no proof of that. Not much proof that we undermined Hamas anyway, really.
Mark Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
My agreement is with Peter K.

Of course anti-war, that is to say, anti-democracy promotion, people detest the color revolutions. Their opposition has been deafening. Examples proliferate.
Toady Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Allende won a plurality of the vote in 1970, but no candidate was able to achieve a majority. As dictated by the Chilean constitution, Congress selected Allende from the top two candidates.

So Allende didn’t win a majority of the vote, but he did attain the Chilean presidency through a free and democratic election.

I don’t think it has been firmly established that the U.S. played a role in the coup, but the CIA was certainly playing footsie with rightist elements in the Chilean military prior to Allende’s ouster.
pseudonymous in nc Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Of course anti-war, that is to say, anti-democracy promotion, people detest the color revolutions.

Of course people like Mark, that is to say, goat fuckers, are shining examples of why ‘liberal hawks’ should shut the fuck up.
Ned Resnikoff Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
In all fairness to John McCain, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t actually live in the 21st century.
Toady Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Who is it, precisely, that detests the “color revolutions”? I would definitely call myself anti-war, and most of those I associate with would, as well. I don’t know anyone who wasn’t pleased with Rose, Orange, and Tulip. Gotov je, as they say. I thought Cedar was a promising step, but it’s difficult for any informed person not to be cynical about Lebanese politics.
Timothy Cleaveland Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Dear Mark– I think you also forgot that the CIA overthrew Mossadeq in 1953, and was indirectly involved in the murder of Patrice Lumumba in 1961. Facts are troubling when they obstruct our view from behind the rose-colored glasses.
James Robertson Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Remind me again how many of Georgia’s neighbors have been invaded by Georgia? Then remind me how much oil money their government uses to fund terrorism?

Maybe after you wrap your head around those questions, you’ll notice that the parallels with Iraq aren’t as close as you seem to think.
Johnson Delegate Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
@Mark
The Confederate States of America?
Among others.
Toady Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Remind me again how many of Georgia’s neighbors have been invaded by Georgia?

According to the Abkhazians, Ossettes, and Russians, two.
Jose Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
The US was part of the coup against Salvador Allende democratically elected in Chile. This occured ironically on 9/11/1973. The US was involved in the attempted coup against Hugo Chavez in venezuela. The US was involved in the overthrow of Haitian President Jean Bertrand Aristide. The US interfered through the CIA with terrorism in Jamaica to destroy Michael Manley. The US foreign policy has nothing to do with Democracy or with ethical noble purposes. US foreign policy Its purely a naked struggle for power uber alles.
Jose Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
I don’t think it has been firmly established that the U.S. played a role in the coup, but the CIA was certainly playing footsie with rightist elements in the Chilean military prior to Allende’s ouster.

The US government [ kissinger] used its Diplomatic pouches to send to Right wing plotters the weapon to kill Chilean General Schneider. He was Chief of staff and would have stopped the coup against Allende by Pinochet. The reason the weapons were sent was not because of a lack of weapons in Chile to carry out an assassination. It was as proof to the coup plotters that The US had their back.
Mark Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
I agree with James Robertson. As he points out, Iraq had just invaded Kuwait, so our liberation was clearly of a different order. Of course, I’ll go James one step further. Liberating a country is justified even if the liberated country’s transgression is 10, 20, 30 years in the past. There is no statute of limitations on justice, especially when you’re dealing with the United States, which is, to paraphrase Michael Tomasky, a beacon of freedom onto the world.

Anyway, I’m a little surprised at the outrage being expressed here. I’m only repeating the sort of thing which is regularly put forth in elite op-ed pages (NYTimes, Wash Post) and opinion journals (TNR, American Prospect, Weekly Standard, Atlantic Monthly) on a daily, weekly basis. Here’s a task for the anti-American around here: Find one prominent liberal columnist or intellectual who doesn’t admit that the reason we invaded Iraq is because of our mission of freedom. Usually such liberals preface their remarks with phrases like “mis-guided” “messianistic” “delusional”, but never is the point denied. Everyone in the know knows: American foreign policy is the active spreading of democracy.
Sean Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Mark:

You’ll not find much love for the “elite op-ed pages” in this corner of the net. You are seriously delusional, please read something that is not written by the “elites” and troll somewhere else.
Mark Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
“You’ll not find much love for the “elite op-ed pages” in this corner of the net. You are seriously delusional, please read something that is not written by the “elites” and troll somewhere else.”

You mean not read Newsweek, Time, the Atlantic Monthly, the American Prospect, ALDaily.com, etc. etc. What other sources of information are there? Matthew Yglesias, Atlantic Monthly junior editor?
Richard Steven Hack Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Mark must take the same ketamine as Robert Powell - he sounds the same. Anybody who doesn’t know by now that Iraq was all about oil, war profits and Israel is totally delusional.

Where is Powell, by the way? We got nitwit Robertson over here, why not Powell?
Gabriel Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
What I want to know is why anyone here is wasting their time arguing with someone so historically ignorant he could make a statement like

“But no one can doubt that the reason for why we do what we do relates entirely to our historical and providential mission to spread liberty across the globe. America is a moral force. For America, Liberty has always been job one.”

I mean, he even invokes the word “providential”; that we’ve been given this mission by God.

For the condensed version, Mark, you could try “Overthrow” by Stephen Kinzer. No mention of “God” or “Liberty” in it though; just Bananas, Sugar, Oil, and Military Bases.

For another take on “God” and “Liberty”, I leave you with Mark Twain-

–

I left these shores, at Vancouver, a red-hot imperialist. I wanted the American eagle to go screaming into the Pacific. It seemed tiresome and tame for it to content itself with the Rockies. Why not spread its wings over the Philippines, I asked myself? And I thought it would be a real good thing to do.

I said to myself, here are a people who have suffered for three centuries. We can make them as free as ourselves, give them a government and country of their own, put a miniature of the American constitution afloat in the Pacific, start a brand new republic to take its place among the free nations of the world. It seemed to me a great task to which we had addressed ourselves.

But I have thought some more, since then, and I have read carefully the treaty of Paris, and I have seen that we do not intend to free, but to subjugate the people of the Philippines. We have gone there to conquer, not to redeem.

We have also pledged the power of this country to maintain and protect the abominable system established in the Philippines by the Friars.

It should, it seems to me, be our pleasure and duty to make those people free, and let them deal with their own domestic questions in their own way. And so I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land.
Mark Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Gabriel,

I’ll just ask you to find a single prominent liberal voice who doesn’t agree with me in the main.
Joey, Georgia USA Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
There is only one Georgia State that I, expect to give my life in defense of and that as you all know, that would be the Empire State of the South ours truly The State of Georgia in the United States of America. Senator McCain, his campaign staff of neocon lobbyists and their supporters can go and sacrifice their own for giving false hopes, lies and empty promises to the government of Georgia the ex-Soviet state of the USSR, unless they had designed all along to confront Russia militarily, because an economic chokehold on Russia, even if possible, would most likely cause it to react like a cornered rat. We are all Georgians only when it matters first and foremost with our own State of Georgia, USA. The words and deeds of Senator McCain, his neocons cohorts and consorts have undeniably proven that they are ready, willing and able to bring on World War III even before they are elected to succeed Bush/Cheney. All Americans who plan on voting for Senator McCain should be fully aware that they are effectively preparing for World War III. The facts speak for themselves, in a recent article by AP’s Pete Yost, “Four months ago, on the same day that Scheunemann’s partner signed the latest $200,000 agreement with Georgia, McCain spoke with Saakashvili by phone. The senator then issued a strong statement saying that ‘we must not allow Russia to believe it has a free hand to engage in policies that undermine Georgian sovereignty.’” .Go read the whole article and research before you vote.
Ed Marshall Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Mark is pulling your chain, and he is making a sad point.
McGuff Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
So, what are we supposed to do about the Russian’s?

Borrow money from the Chinese in order to attack them?

Divert soldiers from Iraq in order to safeguard Georgia?

Sacrifice our own oil and gas to ship it to Europe?
Richard Steven Hack Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Mark: “I’ll just ask you to find a single prominent liberal voice who doesn’t agree with me in the main.”

Why should I listen to any other moron who buys into this bullshit?

I give Yglesias crap for being a “liberal interventionist” disguised as a “liberal internationalist” for exactly the same reasons. ANY such attitude is just a guise for US corporate imperialism.

You’re just another lame propagandist of the Robert Powell ilk.

Or on ketamine.
Maynard Handley Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Mark: “Of course I’ll do Peter one better–Castro wasn’t democratically elected. So in fact the United States has never ever undermined a single democratic government. ”

Well apart from Iran and Palestine, nowadays, of course. (To be fair, the US hasn’t actually undermined them, simply tried to do so.)
The US did, of course, try and succeed in Iran in 1953. And Congo in 1960.
And there was the whole deal with Panama way back when in 1903.
Those are just the examples that immediately spring to my mind. I’m sure there are others.

And, to be fair, we do need to remember all those NON-democratically elected governments that the US did its best to keep that way. South Africa is a good example, Indonesia another.
Don Williams Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Re Mark’s comment “I’ll just ask you to find a single prominent liberal voice who doesn’t agree with me in the main.”
———–
Are those the “liberal voices” covertly funded and directed by the US Government’s National Endowment for Democracy?
See http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=National_Endowment_for_Democracy

Re Sourcewatch’s complaints about NED’s opaque operations, the CIA Directorate of Operations was similarly opaque when it was doing the same job — covert subversion of foreign governments

As I noted earlier, this job was taken away from CIA and given to US political operatives. Probably because the political operatives were less constrained by morality.
Don Williams Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
When you hear news reports from Georgia, remember New York Times reporter Regine Alexandre.

See http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Regine_Alexandre
fnook Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Democracy is magic, like the magical kingdom of Disneyland.
DTM Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Personally, I pegged Mark for parody starting with Post #3, and nothing that came after has changed my mind.
Harvey Lobster Says:
August 13th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
We have helped to overthrow democratically elected governments, attempted to do so, or provided comfort and support to autocratic regimes when strong pro-democracy movements existed in recent history in, minimally, these countries:

Chile, Haiti, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Pakistan, South Africa (most outrageous of all - Mandela was released in 1990, for God’s sake!), the Palestinian Authority, and much of the rest of the Middle East (e.g., supporting our friends in Egypt, etc.) To argue that the U.S. has been consistently pro-democracy, even in the last five years, is *laughable*.

We have promoted democracy with reasonable consistency *in Europe*. We have been, on the balance, anti-democracy in Latin America, the Middle East, and Africa. Our behavior in East Asia is more of a mixed bag — any experts on Korea or Tawain want to make sense of our problematic behavior there? How about our “democratic” support of Marcos or Suharto?

As far as prominent liberal voices who don’t agree with Mark? Well, pro-corporate, neo-imperialist “liberals” *do* agree with him.

For counterexamples, how about Ralph Nader and Noam Chomsky, flawed figures who at least can speak the truth about our foreign policy?
Not as stupid as Will Allen Says:
August 14th, 2008 at 1:20 am
Don’t worry Richard Steven Hack, the idiots like Powell aren’t far away. They are never far away. People so stupid that they think the Iraqi people had it coming are not just the bane of polite society (and a blight on rational fucking discourse), they are ubiquitous.

Warmongering idiots like James Robertson will always find excuses why “those people” had it coming. Never mind that the 3000 dead Americans are dwarfed by the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. Never mind that, even if it were a revenge thing it’s revenge on the wrong fucking people. Those kind of niggling details don’t bother idiots like James Robertson. All that kind of loathsome scum cares about is that they get to see video of children blown to pieces for the crime of being brown in the wrong place.
novakant Says:
August 14th, 2008 at 2:15 am
Is Mark some sort of performance artist?
Anthony Damiani Says:
August 14th, 2008 at 6:19 am
Is Mark some sort of performance artist?

I know! That’s what I thought!

America is in fact the world’s last, best hope. We didn’t invade anyone–we liberate.

It took me three reads to realize he wasn’t being sarcastic.
SLC Says:
August 14th, 2008 at 8:42 am
I’m sure that Mr. Yglesias will want to comment on todays’ column by his favorite columnist on the subject of Georgia and Russia.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/13/AR2008081303365.html?sub=AR
Harvey Lobster Says:
August 14th, 2008 at 9:04 am
I’m sure that Mr. Yglesias will want to comment on todays’ column by his favorite columnist on the subject of Georgia and Russia.

That article is marginally better than Krauthammer’s usual idiocy - if only because he understands that we have no military options.

He’s still an idiot, though. First he argues — and I understand the reasoning — that with the “Finlandization” (now there’s a term!) of Georgia, Russia becomes “master of the Caspian Basin.” Those of us who are a little more awake might have understood that Russia never stopped being “master of the Caspian Basin,” and that our very inability to respond to the invasion of Georgia *proves* that Russia was, de facto, in control all along. But whatever. The man’s a psychiatrist, not a poli sci professor - cut him some slack.

Then the funny part comes. Krauthammer wants to scare off the big, bad bear by boycotting the 2014 olympics and expelling Russia from the G8. Scary!

Look, special K, what would *you* do if you were a tyrant? Have a nice olympic games and a nice economic summit, or “be master of the Caspian basin?” Maybe we *should* boycott the olympics and expell Russia from the G8 - but don’t expect it to work, gen

The crazy talk really begins when he talks about arming a Georgian government in exile, if necessary. So he’d cheerfully risk another cold war for the *benefit* of starting another Chechnyan war?

There, my friends, is one of the great geopolitical minds of our time. Bow in awe.
Njorl Says:
August 14th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
And isn’t Georgia in Asia? I know I can’t keep all of my former Soviet states straight, but I thought Georgia was Asian.

Hard to say. The Caucasus mountains are part of the border (I think). Counter clockwise, Europe’s borders are the Arctic and Atlantic oceans, the Mediterranean, the Dardanelles-Marmara-Bosporus, the Black Sea, the Caucasus mountains, the Caspian sea, the Ural River, the Ural mountains. The trouble is Europe isn’t really a continent. It is a few peninsulas jutting off Asia.
Sam Bolivar Says:
August 16th, 2008 at 12:27 am
@ Mark (concerning your comments #3, #5, #26, et al):

Sir, I used to agree with much of what you wrote - back when I was ignorant. Fortunately, I started doing more reading, and started thinking for myself. If I, a VERY ‘patriotic’ American back then, can change, you certainly can - unless of course, you are a paid government/military shill, in which case probably nothing I wrote would change your (non-objective, even closed) mind. Apparently you are currently:
1) virtually totally blinded by ‘patriotic fervor’;
2) quite naive;
and/or,
3) (willfully?) ignorant of our nation’s dirty past. You MUST read some books other than those promoted on Faux News! (I recommend “Killing Hope” by William Blum, and “Addicted to War” (a non-fiction comic book) by Joel Andreas). Excerpts from “Killing Hope” are viewable here: . According to something I read, Blum’s book contains more info on US-led aggression since WWII than even a Congressional study on the topic came up with. It lists over 50 chapters detailing US military aggression against other sovereign nations - and that’s just since WWII!

Blum is also the author of “Rogue State - a Guide to the World’s Only Superpower”, and other books. For more on Blum and his work:
http://www.catalystmedia.org.uk/issues/nerve2/blum.htm
America’s most feared man
By Darren Guy

http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol1/cia.html
The CIA, Contras, Gangs, and Crack
Volume 1, Number 11
November 1996
Written by William Blum, a Washington, DC based writer on foreign policy and intelligence matters.

*********
Mark, I presume you’re intelligent. Please THINK about why the U.S. (and Israel, too, but that’s off-topic) are so hated, mistrusted, even despised around the world. There are plenty of reasons. You want to be considered credible, right? Don’t die ignorant and misled… for your own sake. It’s not easy, but we must all face the dirty truth.
Sam Bolivar Says:
August 16th, 2008 at 12:29 am
Follow-up on last post, to Mark:

Oops - the link I tried to post for Blum’s book “Killing Hope” is here:
http://www.doublestandards.org/blum19.html

Sorry about that.
NutellaonToast Says:
August 19th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
We also recall yours, don’t we Matty boy.

Matt Yglesias

How Quickly We Forget

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Matt Yglesias

How Quickly We Forget

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