Aug 11th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Escalation
This seems about the time to say that whatever my serious disagreements with the Russia hawks’ take on the overall context in which we should understand the Russia-Georgia conflict, Russia has now escalated beyond the point where there’s justification for what they’re doing. The Georgian have called for a cease-fire and have withdrawn from South Ossetia — under the circumstances there’s no legitimate reason for the Russians to keep advancing and attacking.
47 Responses to “Escalation”
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August 11th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
How realistic would a boycott of russian oil or gas be? Or any other sanctions?
August 11th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
I don’t quite understand how this particular conflict can go from justified to unjustified by a matter of degree or distance.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Matt,
It’s not that us NeoCons ( I wish we had a good logo and t-shirt design for such a groovy name) are looking for bad guys to fill up the vacuum left behind after the Cold War. Rather it’s that the history of the past century has proven that there really are bad guys out there — sic Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hussein, Bin Ladin, etc. and if we tolerate little bad guys long enough they become big bad guys and cost millions of lives.
Now, granted we are not blameless in this game vis a vis Cambodia and the rise of the Khmer Rouge as a direct result of the illegal Cambodian war, but nonetheless the truth remains as long as the conditions for tyranny to grow exist — then it will continue to exist and grow. The reverse may not be true in the long run, but unless we try to eliminate the conditions for Tyranny, we will never know if we can eliminate it forever.
A closing thought, engraved on the pedestal at the bottom of the steps of the US Archives are the words, “Vigilance is the eternal price of freedom.” Let us not forget that.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Attacking and advancing with no legitimate reasons is one of the few things the Russian state has historically done well and here you are criticising them for it.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Maybe it’s because the Russians want to support their troops.
That seems to justify any amount of American mayhem.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
The sentiment that “Vigilance is the eternal price of freedom” was not expressed that we might remain vigilant against the evolution of foreign dictators. Rather, that vigilance refers to a watchful eye meant for our own leadership. The founding fathers revolted against their own government; they did not follow this up with a regime change for France or the Netherlands.
The inherent flaw in the Neocon worldview is that it breaks regimes down into the ‘good guys’ and the ‘bad guys’ and assumes that we fall into the former category. Certainly there are ‘bad guys’ out there, but the good guys are capable of more than a few monstrous acts of their own. America does not possess the moral authority to dictate how other states run their affairs. Once we derived authority from shared world opinion and established values like the Geneva conventions. Without a law higher than our own judgement to determine who exactly the ‘bad guys’ are and how a ‘good guy’ must deal with their enemies to remain good, the categories are meaningless.
The Neocon worldview is childish, simplistic, and dangerous.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
It’s not that us NeoCons ( I wish we had a good logo and t-shirt design for such a groovy name) are looking for bad guys to fill up the vacuum left behind after the Cold War.
I’m afraid you’re too kind to your ideological comrades; quite a large percentage of you are, in fact, looking for bad guys. Some explicitly so.
What’s so interesting about using this issue as an way to justify neoconservatism is that what Putin’s government is doing is an almost perfect example of neoconservative thought put into action. Russia is defending its invasion by appealing to security (Georgian resistance to Ossetian separatists threatens Russian security) and to humanitarianism and democracy (the Ossetians want to join mother Russia in order to have a better life and be free from the Georgian government.) It’s a neoconservative dream.
Can you imagine if Iranian separatists wanted to join Iraq, and Iran responded by bombing them? Can you imagine how fast we would invade Iran? Can you imagine how Kagan and Kristol et al. would foam at the mouth?
August 11th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
What makes anyone believe that Putin, as former KGB, has forgotten what “client state” means.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
McGuff:
Maybe it’s because the Russians want to support their troops.
As a resident of the planet Earth and a human being above all else – sure I pay US taxes and am subject to subtle pro-US propaganda all the time – I don’t see a moral equivalency.
Russia is aiming to overthrow an elected government. Putin is running the Russian government even though he supposedly retired (kind of Orwellian).
Saddam was a cruel unelected dictator. The Taliban weren’t exactly democratic and wouldn’t turn over Osama. (”He’s our guest”)
Obviously the US can’t go to war with Russia and I don’t think they should kick Russia out of the G8 (besides I don’t think the rest of the G8 would go along with that)>
That seems to justify any amount of American mayhem.
The more liberal Russians are against the invasion of Georgia, just as they were they against the mass slaughter in Chechnya.
Apparently peaceniks like you can’t make fine distinctions. Or do you just like to “stick it to the man”?
August 11th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
As a resident of the planet Earth and a human being above all else – sure I pay US taxes and am subject to subtle pro-US propaganda all the time – I don’t see a moral equivalency.
This is the most tried (and tired) defense of foreign policy exceptionalism there is. It doesn’t matter if the United States is more or less moral than Russia or any other international actor. The actions of the United States have moral content, regardless of their relative worth. It was wrong for the United States to invade Iraq; the fact that Putin is despicable and Russia a “bad” country” doesn’t change that.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
In an interview with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer yesterday morning, the Georgian president mentioned what was written on an unexploded bomb attached to a shot-down Russian plane: “This is for Americans. This is for NATO.”
I think that explains the Russian position. What goes around comes around. Bush has pursued a “who’s gonna stop us?” foreign policy for years. Now it’s Putin’s turn.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
It depends on how you value nations, Peter. Both Georgia *and* Iraq were sovereign nations; the distinction between them as democratic or non-democratic is only important to….well to us. One might well argue that Russia is *more* justified than we were if one chooses to assess based on other distinctions. Iraq, for instance, was stable; Georgia, on the other hand, couldn’t reign Ossetia in. Georgia spent a human lifetime as a part of the Soviet Empire; Iraq, on the other hand, has never been ours. Georgia is proximal to Russia and hostile to her interests; Iraq is a world away from the US.
Let’s all cut the moral equivalency crap and talk about why this is actually happening and why we can’t stop it. Control of Georgia’s regime is good for Russia’s oil money just as Iraq’s was supposed to be for us. Here we are, the only member of Nato pushing for our good buddy to get brought into the club *while* trying to spite Russia at every turn (G8 anyone?). Isn’t it possible that Russia feels a teensy bit threatened by our imperial attitude? Their fragile economy is based on oil. How does it look for us to blatantly try and capitalize on our relationship with Georgia *while* waging an oil war in the Middle East *while* posturing that we may expand that war to Iran?
The big countries are scrabbling for oil. The lesser powers are caught in their wake. How is this surprising and what exactly can we do but bluster? We squandered the good will, economic power, and moral highground that left us a superpower while Russia fell. In the meantime, while we’ve been deflating our own influence, Russia has been recovering. Certainly we’re still the bigger dog, but they are no longer utterly outclassed. Russia sees itself at a crossroads. She must either assert power and remain a world player, or she must roll over to US demands and become so irrelevant she is kicked out of G8. What did you all think would happen?
August 11th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Yes, and? There is an implication here that it is our business. It certainly is not, at all, in any way, shape or form.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
According to Fukuyama, in the 1990’s the neocons at the Weekly Standard were looking for a foreign enemy because they felt that having a foreign enemy helped Republicans at the polls. China was chosen over the Islamic world at the time because as a state, China was easier to use as a threat.
While I’m not saying there are equivalents, but you can see parallels in the Vietnam War and its effect on American nationalism. We stopped the elections in the 1950’s that were supposed to come with the end of the Franco-Vietnamese War because we didn’t want Ho Chi Minh to win, which is how we ended up with South Vietnam as a client state. Once we were in there, the Right kept on saying we needed to win because losing would be an insult to our boys who had died, meaning “support the troops.” This is how nationalism works and we need to start understanding that and how we are subject to the same emotions as any other people.
In addition, apparently Bush was fine with the coup against the elected president of Thailand not too long ago.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
One thing about war — or any kind of fight— is that one party can’t decide to end it if the other party wants to continue it.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
“How realistic would a boycott of russian oil or gas be?”
Uh, let’s see. The US imports, I am guessing, zero Russian oil and gas. The Europeans import most of it. I suspect that the US telling Europe to suck it up and do without will not go down especially well.
Meanwhile, I suspect the Chinese and Indians will happily sign a contract with Russia to take their oil and gas from now till the end of time.
Or to put it differently, how well’s that boycott of Iranian oil and gas working out? What, you mean there isn’t one? In spite of GWB’s claim that they are the most evilest, most dangerousest, most naughtiest nation in human history???
This is what happens when you behave like a coke-snorting drunkard who believes jesus will save you from the consequences of your actions. You spend 25 years wasting oil, then discover that, no matter how much you may hate the people who still have it, you have to deal with them on THEIR terms.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
“Rather it’s that the history of the past century has proven that there really are bad guys out there — sic Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hussein, Bin Ladin, etc. and if we tolerate little bad guys long enough they become big bad guys and cost millions of lives.”
Really? Pinochet? Galtieri? Sukarno (one million dead)? Mobutu Sese Seko?
Notice what these names all have in common?
August 11th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
I agree with most of what Matthew has said on this issue. But to play devil’s advocate for a moment, I think their is a solid case to argue that what Russia is doing what now is entirely rational. Russia’s aims now are 1) to weaken Georgia to the point that they are never able to seriously contemplate retaining these regions again and become more subservient to Moscow; 2) send a message to other near abroad countries (i.e. Ukraine) what the consequences are for challenging the Kremlin and that Moscow’s interest in these areas will always be more intense than the West so that these countries cannot count on NATO support; and 3) make the West think twice about what expanding NATO to these countries would exactly mean in terms of their level of commitment.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
The justification for the Russions advancing in Georgia is ‘they can.’ This is what some of my elders in the past have termed ‘a teaching moment.’ From the minute the idiots running Georgia started this the only question has been how far the Russians were going to go to make sure everyone learns the appropriate lessons. My guess is pretty far.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Crucial questions:
1. Did the White House KNOW about the intention and decision of Georgia to invade South-Ossetia?
2. IF YES: Why did they allow it – or let it happen – or were not capable to stop the all too risky enterprise?
3. IF NO: How is possible for the USA not to be informed, given the fact that Georgia is a very close ally who ought to inform his big friend and supporter before such a risky enterprise as challenging Russia with military might? How is it possible they they did not get information via informal channels?
Yes or no? — Anyway, you can sense how INCOMPETENT the current US foreign politics must be.
Now US standing in the Caucasian area is in peril. Not the end of the world, but quite a defeat and some disadvantage for the future. And US prestige has received a new blow.
So there is a 4th question: How is such outrageous incompetence in foreign politics possible? What’s wrong with this government?
August 11th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Hehe, welcome to the rest of the world, loudmouth Americans. You can’t boss everyone around anymore. Pretty soon you’ll learn to live with it like everyone else.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
As an avid reader of the Corner, I have been well educated in these matters and can provide the Russian’s “justifications.”
1. Rubble doesn’t make trouble.
2. A brief, ferocious punitive raid followed by a rapid withdrawal is just the thing to advance national interests.
Meanwhile, there’s something to be said for this: “it’s not in America’s interest for it to become the received wisdom that any foreign politician in a turbulent nation who aligns himself with Washington is setting himself up for a Foggy Bottom sucker-punch and a violent end.” That suggests to me that it’s not in America’s interest to make promises we don’t intend to keep to shifty or foolish leaders. The Cornerites seem to draw a different lesson from it.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Have the Georgians actually left Ossetia? My read is that they left the positions formerly held by the Russians but not left the areas they used to control.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
” Did the White House KNOW about the intention and decision of Georgia to invade South-Ossetia>”
No doubt about it. And Israel knew, too, because their military advisers helped plan it. So either Israel shafted the US by keeping it secret, or the US knew.
Either way, the fly in the ointment here is Israel. That country needs to be taken down – now – before they start any more wars around the world. Right now, Israel has THE most pernicious political influence on the planet – in the US, in the Middle East, in Africa, in the Far East, and in Europe. Their spies are everywhere, their military sales are everywhere, their drug dealers are everywhere, and they need to go.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Can the govt of Georgia really have believed that the US or NATO would do anything more than talk in this situation? If so they’re fools — probably fools who have been listening to a lot of lying hints. Russia has said over and over that it would not allow Georgia to attack South Ossetia militarily.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
I guess the Russians think Saakashvili is an evildoer who has threatened the peace and freedom of the world. Maybe Putin feels a moral obligation to make the world a better place by enforcing regime change in Georgia.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
I’m really curious who’s ass you pulled that out of. Strawman arguments are annoying; overtly ignorant and antisemitic strawman arguments simply expose you as a gullible fool.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Daily LLama: the truth remains as long as the conditions for tyranny to grow exist — then it will continue to exist and grow.
Tyranny has at least two flavors/colors: foreign and domestic (like white wine and red). Blush wines are made from treating white wine grapes like red ones for just a bit (skins left in the mix a while).
Are the two ‘Georgian’ breakaway areas foreign or domestic to either Georgia or Russia? Certainly the separatists in those areas don’t think of themselves as Georgian, and they carry Russian passports.
From the domestic point of view tyranny can be just as creeping as it is in foreign relations. Bush and Cheney have not only been practicing the art here at home, but have been exporting it (for oil? for ‘democracy’? for ’self determination’, for ‘empire’?) in frequent doses whereever they detect ‘terrorism’ or ‘wmd’s’, or ‘people wanting to be free’.
What goes around comes around….
The Caucasus has NEVER been stable, even with iron-hand rule. Georgia is the pimple on the bear’s ass, and it got infected with some dangerous ideas imported from the far abroad instead of the near abroad. Guess who carried the virus?
August 11th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Re Frank Jacobs
Mr. Jacobs is probably new to this blog as I don’t recall him commenting when Mr. Yglesias was over at the Atlantic Monthly. Therefore, he is probably not familiar with Mr. Hack so allow me to enlighten him.
Mr. Richard Steven Hack is a graduate of the Federal Penitentiary at Leavenworth where he spent 9 fun filled years incarcerated for holding up a bank at gun point. Mr. Hack thought he was a big man when he stuck a gun in a bank tellers’ face and demanded the cash in the latters’ drawer under the threat of termination with extreme prejudice. Since being released, Mr. Hack has, on this blog, advocated the assassination of police officers, threatened to shove radio talk show host Michael Savage off a curb into traffic, indicated that he would like to steal a nuclear weapon from Israels’ nuclear arsenal, provided that Osama bin Laden advances him 1 billion dollars, among other fantasies. In short, Mr. Hack is quite round the bend and is, in fact, raving bonkers as the British would say. However, his ravings do have the virtue of providing the blog with a little levity so he is tolerated. He makes a nice counterpoint to the blogs favorite conspiracy monger, Mr. Don Williams and its’ resident fascist, Mr. Chris Ford. In addition, there is the resident admirer of Adolf Hitler, Mr. Trevor, who claims that his father is a Federal Judge appointed by President Richard Nixon. Enjoy!
August 11th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
And our resident Zionist freak is one SLC who continually lobbies for extermination of the Palestinians (not to mention all Arabs) while at the same time saying he really doesn’t like Israelis either.
As for Jacobs, if he’s as clueless about Israel’s influences in the world as he sounds, it’s no surprise that he doesn’t understand what’s going on.
And I still don’t remember threatening to shove Michael Savage into traffic. I think SLC made that one up out of whole cloth.
Ah, here it is! This is what I actually said on that occasion:
Also, SLC misrepresents my bank robbery. I didn’t rob one teller, I robbed the entire line of tellers. And as I was leaving, two women came into the bank. Seeing me in a black mask, they began to get frightened. I told them, “Forget it, it’s over, I’m out of here.”
They smiled at me as if I had just made their day exciting.
Of course, once they realized the bank was robbed and they weren’t going to get any business done there that day, they probably got pissed at me, too.
You can’t please everybody.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
What idiot apologists for the war crimes of George W. Bush tend to ignore with their simpleminded invocation of Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin (along with their willful neglect of the rest of the right-wing supported thugs like Pinochet) is that Saddam Husein’s crimes, no matter how great they were, were not worthy of the mass punishment meted out by turning Iraq into a basket case.
There is a class of moron (they’ll be here soon enough) who claims that the war on Iraq gave the Iraqis freedom. These monsters ignore the fact that political freedom is only one kind of freedom and that being enslaved by chaos and politically free isn’t a choice that can be made for a people. When you take that choice from the people in question you are a scumbag. Worse, you are aiding and abetting war crimes.
For those giving succor to the loathsome “neo-cons,” you are welcome to make your case for the slaughter of Iraqis. But I guarantee you it will fail. There is a reason why George W. Bush and company felt obligated to lie about Iraq. There is a reason the American people are now convinced that assaulting the people of Iraq was the wrong thing to do. The war was a war of aggression – no justification that relies on the facts can deny that.
(I miss the preview)
August 11th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Saakashvili does have history with cease-fires:
The Independent, Friday 08/08/08
So why should the Russians trust him?
August 12th, 2008 at 1:11 am
‘Gary Brecher’ noted the same thing as blowback: the Georgian attack took place during a ceasefire hangover.
But there’s a reason for Russia to keep on keeping on, and even a legitimate one if you consider it a legitimate Russian interest to show Saakashvili who’s boss. He’s Tony Soprano, Putin’s straight outta NYC.
August 12th, 2008 at 7:28 am
The Republicans must see this all as a plus as their old archenemy, the Red Menace, is coming back. Truly a fine accomplishment for Condoleeza. Islamofascism was getting a little played out.
August 12th, 2008 at 7:35 am
Is Israel’s support for Georgia a topic that merit’s serious discussion? I’m not sure, but Hack didn’t invent it. Debka File, a website claiming ties to Israel’s security establishment reports:
August 12th, 2008 at 9:18 am
Remember when we invaded Haiti in the 90s? That’s what this is.
Unfortunately, our invasion of Iraq justifies anything that Russia or China could ever hope to do; simultaneously, it’s shown huge weaknesses in our military capabilities.
We need to get used to this sort of thing. Thanks, Republicans.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:27 am
Re Arnold Evans
Is Israel’s support for Georgia a topic that merit’s serious discussion?
In Mr. Evans usual mode of blaming Israel for everything evil in the world, he forgets that the relationship between Israel and Georgia is fully supported and blessed by the Bush administration. In selling arms to Georgia, Israel is acting as a surrogate for us. This allows us to claim that we are not selling arms to Georgia, Israel is. Anybody remember Iran/Contra?
This is why I favor phasing out US aid to Israel. The aid forces the Government of Israel to act in ways that are not necessarily in the best interest of that country. It would seem that irritating Russia is not in Israels’ best interest.
Re Richard Steven Hack
Gee, Mr. Hack threatened to blow away several bank tellers, not just one. What a guy! By the way Mr. Hack, I consider it a great compliment to be labeled a Zionist by you.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:14 am
That was “Zionist freak”, SLC.
One could call M. J. Rosenberg a Zionist, as he does, but not a “Zionist freak”.
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