The Trouble With Terminator 2
I agree with Jonah Goldberg and his readers about the very important subject of Terminator 2, especially the correspondent who observes:
I loved it initially, but the sad truth is that, while T2 was awesome when it came out, 90% of that awesomeness was the new digital effects. Now that those techniques are commonplace, the movie has to fall back on its characters and story, which were weak, annoying, and confused.
It’s worth, however, being clear that there’s a very specific problem here: The sequel’s tragic mishandling of the time travel paradox. The first film has this dead right — the machines’ efforts to go back in time and change the past by assassinating Sarah Connor are not only doomed to fail, but indeed bring about the result they were intended to prevent, namely the conception of John Connor. This is a time-honored literary trope going back, in its way, to Oedipus Rex and is certainly the correct way to handle time travel plots.
Terminator 2 casts all this to the wind with some vague talk about how the future is not yet written. And because T2 operates within the bad “you can change the future” paradigm, T3 winds up making little-to-know sense from the very beginning.
65 Responses to “The Trouble With Terminator 2”
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October 30th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Seriously, what voice recognition software are you using?
October 30th, 2007 at 9:38 am
here is another problem with the film that Lucas replicated with his Star Wars prequels: How to up the violence while at the same time not alienate kids who are now into the film and its characters?
So we have the laughable idea of the villain of the first film now being the *hero* who only shoots people in the knees. You can see the wheels turning in Cameron’s head, “This way, we can still have all that cool shooting but the moms won’t complain about the excessive violence because he’s not actually killing people!”
Kinda like Lucas having droid armies in the Prequels which enabled him to have constant bloodless battles (which had little drama but that’s another point).
I think this is the central flaw with Terminator 2 and, watching it now, it seems nothing more than a cheap, overlong, retread of the original.
Frankly, I’d rather my kid saw violence within a meaningful context than just random bloodless shoot-em-ups; I think T2 and the Prequels are laughable for this whacked reasoning of wanting violence/action without any of the consequences — as if I didn’t understand the violence in Star Wars in 1977 when I was 10? I felt something when Kenobi died; I can’t imagine a kid feeling anything with T2 or the Prequels.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:39 am
I still like T2. The dialogue’s pretty good for the genre: “How many [police]?” “Uh, all of them, I think.”
However, I did make the mistake of recalling that the violence was well within my 11-year-old’s tolerance and thus renting it for us to watch, without remembering that every fifth word is “motherfucker” or somesuch. Naturally, my mother-in-law happened to drop in that evening.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:39 am
I have a feeling this discussion has travelled here from the past.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:41 am
I can offer you proofreading services for, like, a dollar a post . . . okay, fifty cents a post? Seriously. “Undue” for “undo,” “know” for “no” . . . know spell checquer cannes help ewe with that. We can use IM or something.
You shouldn’t worry about writing up to Atlantic’s past standards, but good god, man, you should spell up to them.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:42 am
I can offer you proofreading services for, like, a dollar a post . . . okay, fifty cents a post? Seriously. “Undue” for “undo,” “know” for “no” . . . know spell checquer cannes help ewe with that. We can use IM or something.
You shouldn’t worry about writing up to Atlantic’s past standards, but good god, man, you should spell up to them.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:44 am
It is an ironclad rule of blogs that if you criticize someone else’s spelling, you will make an egregious error yourself in the process. Sorry.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:48 am
i kind of liked “little-to-know” myself. i certainly wondered if it was deliberate (and maybe it was?)
anyway.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:48 am
little-to-know?
Anyway, I think that the time travel paradox has been successfully handled in a number of different ways. The way you identify is typically used as a source of irony. For other purposes, though, authors have successfully used “butterfly effect” models of time travel – most obviously Ray Bradbury. And, of course, the “alternate realities” model has frequently been used in comics and other popular media to allow the writers to play with ideas without messing up their main plotline.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:51 am
“Kinda like Lucas having droid armies in the Prequels which enabled him to have constant bloodless battles (which had little drama but that’s another point).”
The plots for the movies have been around long before the original movies where created. It was always going to be a droid army. This is not something Lucas came up with to persuade moms.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:52 am
Let me anticipate a future post along this line, re The Matrix: It’s impossible to “farm” comatose humans as a source of energy, because growing the food to keep them alive requires more energy than the human body puts out. (The “First Law Of Thermodynamics,” applied.)
Also, when something (e.g., a spaceship) explodes in a vacuum (e.g, outer space) it doesn’t make any sound. Even at the age of ten, I was personally offended by the lack of verisimilitude when the Death Star noisily went “BOOM.”
October 30th, 2007 at 10:00 am
I had to laugh reading Anderson’s post because almost the EXACT same thing happened to my Dad when he rented it for me oh so long ago.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:15 am
So we have the laughable idea of the villain of the first film now being the *hero* who only shoots people in the knees.
Kneepcapping? That’s what the IRA was infamous for. OK, it’s better than getting shot in the head I guess, but still.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:28 am
“The plots for the movies have been around long before the original movies where created. It was always going to be a droid army. This is not something Lucas came up with to persuade moms.”
Step away from the koolaid, my friend. The idea that Lucas had anything more than some vague ideas in his noggin before the original movies were created is balderdash. (NERD ALERT!) If Lucas had this stuff planned out all along, why did he go back and have Greedo shoot first?
As for T2…well, it IS an action movie. Judged on that level, it’s a pretty damn good story. I suspect Jonah and company have a problem with the movie because it’s underlying message conflicts with their “kill’em all” view of the world.
Mike
October 30th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Actually T3 is more consistent with T1 than you indicate. No matter what John Conner does, Judgement Day turns out to be inevitable. The killer robot from the future’s attempt to kill John Conner is futile but so is Connor’s attempt to stop nuclear Armageddon.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:40 am
I think that by trope you really mean topos. Trope refers to a class of rhetorical figures such as metonomy, metaphor, etc. Topos is a commonplace in a particular context, such as the time-travel paradox in science fiction.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:42 am
1) I suspect that a lot of young women found the Sarah Conner character of interest. Remember when she gave the perverted guard the asswhipping with the broom handle? Nice sound effects. (”Thud!”)
2) And dealing with the poor psychologist:
“Ow!! You broke my arm”
“The human body has 256 bones. That’s one”
3) Plus the one-handed pumping of the shotgun was pretty neat. As was the ass-chewing she gave the defense engineer. And her views on men as fathers.
In my opinion, Linda Hamilton was far more impressive than Arnold. T3 suffered greatly from her absence.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:45 am
(I mean, what is the best movie that exists in which a child plays a main character? I can’t think of any great ones.)
Well, off the top of my head– “The 400 Blows” and “Secret of the Beehive.” And even though I hated “Pan’s Labyrinth,” I thought the little girl did a pretty good job with her part. But I suspect you were implying “mainstream Hollywood” when you said “movie–” if that’s true, then I pretty much agree.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:50 am
Ah, yes. Plus the desert arms cache. Gotta admire a woman with her own arms cache. Especially when it includes heavy machines guns and grenade launchers.
Plus the idea of the Mexican desert as a place to flee TO as a refuge FROM the USA. Every survivalist out there was nodding “YES!” in the theater.
Linda Hamilton made even Angelina Jolie look like a simpering flower.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:54 am
I felt something when Kenobi died; I can’t imagine a kid feeling anything with T2 or the Prequels.
Episode 1 had basically the exact same scene in it, only the guy that died was also a mentor to the little kid character. I imagine that being fairly impactful on kids, particularly those kids who weren’t comparing the movie to their own 20-year-old memories.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:56 am
Plus Linda Hamilton put out the idea that speaking a foreign language (Spanish) and not treating foreigners like shit might have survival value for an American. An idea definitely before it’s time –but one i suspect will be increasingly popular.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:56 am
I really wonder what the requirements of being an “assistant editor” for The Atlantic Monthly are, because the ability to write clear, error-free English is certainly not on the list. As many of us have pointed out here time after time, this is not about typos.
Also, I’m still baffled by Matt’s refusal to correct any of his blatant errors after they have been pointed out; it’s as if he’s saying, “I have written what I have written. So eat it.” Lots of bloggers make mistakes, but they at least go back and correct them once they notice them or once they are pointed out. Actually, this leads me to believe “Matt” might be a bot.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:03 am
Actually, I think people who complain loudly about trivial typos are far more annoying than the typos.
lus I have to wonder what’s provoking such emotional and hilarious indignation?? — did some schoolchildren laugh at the poster earlier this morning –maybe mock the poster with cruel derision?
Causing a suppressed emotional reaction (embarrassed humiliation slowing turning to anger ) which is leaking out here??
October 30th, 2007 at 11:07 am
It’s weird to me that you consider T2’s time travel conception to be just cut-and-dried wrong. Isn’t the whole thing with time travel that we don’t know which is really paradoxical or impossible? I mean there’s a pretty big paradox in the original too. (That said, it’s a much better movie than T2, although their aims are so different its not really a fair comparison.)
Incidentally, the smartest science guy I know, a physicist who went to MIT, says that the time travel in Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure is the best system he’s seen in a movie. Like where they say “Bill, remember to go back and time and unlock this door before now later”, and it’s unlocked.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Best thing I’ve read about T2, from DF Wallace
October 30th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Gully: The sole source for all claims that the storylines for all six (except when it was going to be nine) Star Wars movies were all written out in advance of the release of the 1977 movie is, as far as anyone has ever determined, George Lucas, after the release of “Star Wars”. The number of people who have independently confirmed the existence of said scripts is zero.
(This brief digression into fannish wanking courtesy of your local Committee to remind people that George Lucas is a hack and that everything you liked about the original trilogy was probably written by Leigh Brackett.)
October 30th, 2007 at 11:35 am
It’s weird to me that you consider T2’s time travel conception to be just cut-and-dried wrong. Isn’t the whole thing with time travel that we don’t know which is really paradoxical or impossible?
Indeed. It’s weird, and often inconsistent or at least confusing even within fictional worlds. In Stargate SG: 1, the past was unchanged from the present (when the team went back to 1969, Hammond always knew that they had gone back), but the present was successfully changed from the future (a future version of the team sent a warning back to the present to avoid a certain planet, and they did). In Back to the Future, relatively small changes were made, like improving Marty’s family, and Doc had no problems with trying to fix a change made by someone else, but he was still afraid of causing an actual paradox in Back to the Future 2. In X-Men, Days of Future Past was successfully averted, but as I understand it, it’s unclear whether the past was actually changed or future-Shadowcat simply created a new, seperate timeline. And I don’t think we even know what’s going on in Heroes.
I remember one novel I read called The X President, which included time travel. But it’s a new technology, and the travelers basically say they aren’t sure how changing the past works. They consider three possibilities: you can’t change it at all; you can change it but interactions are so chaotic and random that the new timeline you create will probably not be what you were hoping to create, and there are an infinite number of timelines anyway so it doesn’t matter; or you can change it and there will be some minor unpredictable changes but you’re pretty likely to get the overall result you expect. When pressed, the time travelers admit that they’re assuming the third option is correct just because there’s no point otherwise.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Yeah, sure, but none of that matters. What matters: Summer Glau kicking ass.
October 30th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Gully: The sole source for all claims that the storylines for all six (except when it was going to be nine) Star Wars movies were all written out in advance of the release of the 1977 movie is, as far as anyone has ever determined, George Lucas, after the release of “Star Wars”. The number of people who have independently confirmed the existence of said scripts is zero.
And the number of people who conclude from the budding romance between Luke and Leia in the first film that it’s utter bilge is legion.
October 30th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
The sole source for all claims that the storylines for all six (except when it was going to be nine) Star Wars movies were all written out in advance of the release of the 1977 movie is, as far as anyone has ever determined, George Lucas, after the release of “Star Wars”. The number of people who have independently confirmed the existence of said scripts is zero.
I remember reading the novelization of tyhe original movie before the movie came out–there was no hint of a basis for the 3 later prequels. Not to mention, it ought to be clear to anyone seeing the movies that Lucas was forced to change Han Solo from side kick to romantic lead after Harrison Ford became a big star through Indiana Jones–plainly, Luke was originally supposed to get the girl, and only later did they decide to reconcile their contradictions by making the girl Luke’s long-lsot sister . . .
October 30th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
T2 was an obvious piece of shit immediately upon arrival. The special effects were innovative, but there was nothing else to the movie. T2 was essentially f/x porn, as David Foster Wallace put it.
October 30th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
rea you are partially wrong. I too read that novelization around the time Star Wars came out in 1977 and it does indeed contain some weird prologue/preface which gives a very bare hint that this is part of a larger story.
It even uses the name Mace Windu or some variation.
BUT that does not mean Lucas had all 9 thought out, let alone scripted.
I got a set of the Ralph McQuarrie conceptual paintings in late 1997 that supposedly Lucas originally used to sell the film to Fox and even at that late date you can see Lucas had many different ideas at work.
I think he had, at best, some set pieces he wanted to use and no more than an outline of the whole series.
Besides, even the clumsiest writer could have a better scene in V or VI explaining why Kenobi lied about Luke’s father in IV.
The McQuarrie art had some characters as one character like Luke/Leia and Han/Obi Wan — in fact, having just Leia and an Obi Wan figure more closely matches Kurosawa’s Hidden Fortress which Lucas admits ripping off.
And some scenes in the McQuarrie art are clearly things he used later in other places but not in the first Star Wars.
Lucas just backed himself into a corner by saying there were 9 as anyone who saw the prequels could tell you.
3 films, only one of which deals with the turn to evil by Anakin and the clone wars?
what was the point?
In my mind, I grew up thinking there was some amazing backstory to obi wan and anakin and the clone wars and there was barely a hint of that stuff in Sith.
That is the only necessary prequel, IMHO.
And as for Matt’s typos, their multitude makes me think he is being at least a little arrogant by not correcting them.
Especially since Atlantic’s money and standards are now behind him.
October 30th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Fritz Leiber did great things with time-travel paradoxes in his “Change War” series, which includes the novel The Big Time and many short stories. In that series time is highly resistant to change. It will bring itself back into alignment as soon as possible. In one story a time traveler tries to prevent a suicide by removing the gun from the apartment. Various other possibilities occur to put the bullet in the person’s head — the traveler eliminates these possibilities, until finally a bullet-sized meteorite hits her between the eyes.
October 30th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Matt, I have to disagree about the time travel “problem” in T2. If the T1000 hadn’t been sent to kill John, then the T800 wouldn’t have been sent to protect him, then Sarah wouldn’t have tried to escape. It’s because of this that John realizes that it’s actually important for him to become a “great military leader” instead of thinking that it’s a delusion of Sarah’s. Without meeting the T800 and seeing Sarah, he would have just ended up in juvie for stealing money from ATMs. I always (well, not when I was a little kid) took the end part about the future being unwritten as ironic, since according to the rules of time travel, if by destroying the arm and the chip and killing Dyson they *had* prevented Judgment Day, then the machines wouldn’t have sent the T1000, etc. etc. A pretty interesting comment on fate/free will from the guy who brought us Titanic.
And I didn’t see T3, so I can’t comment on its adherence to the rules of time travel.
About the kneecapping, I always took it to be a source of comic relief. When the entire LAPD is outside Cyberdyne, he shoots a bunch of grenades, blah blah, and then his HUD reads, “HUMAN CASUALTIES: 0.0″ That’s pretty funny, as is the “He’ll live” comment from the first time he does it.
October 30th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
T3 suffered from being a cheese fest as opposed to actually taking its own story seriously, as the first two did. T3 also suffered from tossing out the limiting-but-in-a-good-way rule of how the bad guy could not travel back with guns and other weapons.
T2 had lots of cool! effects that had nothing to do with the new cooler! effects. The entire sequence of Ahnold and the kid escaping on the motorcycle, for example.
Also, T2 had lots of little touches that bump a good movie up to a great movie. The bad guy “melts” his way through a cell door, but has to pause because his handgun gets stuck on the other side. Stuff like that.
Now, if you want to argue about the “I know why you cry” thing at the end, you’ll get no argument from me.
October 30th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
T2 takes a smart approach to a movie that really wasn’t designed to have a sequel. Yes, the ending is open-ended in the first one, but obviously, the Terminator is out of the picture. You could go repetitive by having Arny come back as a villain, but instead we get him as the good guy. That’s a nice inversion on the last one. Then you face him off with a newer, more improved version, which ups the ante. Instead of having Sarah and her child being together and close, you have them apart, and Sarah basically discredited in his eyes. John Connor gets to start from being a juvenile delinquent using his abilities for selfish reasons, and gets to transition to being a more heroic kid. It’s not Howards End, but unlike so many films, the actions scenes are not arbitrary, and are filled with nice touches.
I think the important thing about movies like the Star Wars Prequels and T2 is that at least the people who made these movies cared about doing more than just what was required.
Moreover, I think its worth noting that these pioneering effects films often bear the brunt of the effort of figuring out how to do these effects, which other movies can follow through on for their own purposes.
We have to stop thinking of special effects as being special, but as being another way to tell the story. Yes, it requires effort, but it’s not always a bad thing to have somebody in charge who’s willing to put together the effort to consider the work overall.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Anyone who did not cry when the T-101 sacrificed himself in the end of T2 has the heart of a soulless, godless machine.
October 30th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
>> If Lucas had this stuff planned out all along, why did he go back and have Greedo shoot first?
October 30th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
trevelyan, I agree with your point about Lucas’ use of violence but, seriously, why ruin the one good bit of humor in the first film? Besides, Han shooting first reveals everything about his character in one instance AND makes the audience wonder if Luke and Obi Wan will be entirely safe riding on his ship.
That point is meaningless now as Ep. 3 has Chewie fighting alongside Yoda. So the surprise of meeting him and Han is gone for the most part if you watch all six films in order.
I like Lucas, I really do. I think he accomplishes some amazing things in what are mainstream films. I just don’t think he had much written out in advance.
Those McQuarrie paintings I saw in 1977 revealed that the films could have gone in many different directions.
I think he crammed what he could into the first one and then tried to back out of the corner and show Anakin as Luke’s father, etc.
October 30th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
T3 is in many ways a retread of T2, but I think it’s a better movie that suffers from not showing us much (story- or effects-wise) that we didn’t already see in T2. Yeah, the effects were new in T2, and the T-1000 is awesome, but I remember re-watching it on laserdisc just a few years after it was released and thinking much less of it than I did the first time, nothing but a bunch of macho posturing. The motorcycle pursuit scene is pretty much the only saving grace of T2. Linda Hamilton may be an iconic “tough chick”, but the lady can’t act. Nick Stahl is a better actor than Edward Furlong. And ramsters is right – showing that history can’t be changed is a lot more chilling than showing that it can.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
“It’s an ironclad law in all six of the films that aggressors lose.”
That’s not how EMPIRE really works out, is it? Unless you consider Luke going to rescue his friends as “aggresive”.
The truth of the matter is that old, rich Lucas has a much more simplistic creative vision than young, hungry Lucas. To old Lucas, Han is a “good guy” and good guy’s don’t shoot people first with guns hidden under the table. Young Lucas recognized that doing that is precisely what made the Han character (and the Luke character!) work so well in the first movie.
Likewise, I’d argue the “shades of gray” that Lucas weaves through the prequels are more evidence of a simplistic creative vision. He’s no longer willing to embrace and exploit a clear division between good and evil, he has to make himself “feel” smart by muddying things up. Or to put it another way, I think it’s a much better story of sin and redemption if Anakin Skywalker DOESN’T have a butt-load of reasons to turn to the Dark Side.
Mike
October 30th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
[i]It’s an ironclad law in all six of the films that aggressors lose. [/i]
Yeah, like in [i]Sith[/i], when Palpatine tries to overthrow the Republic, and kill all the Jedi, and it like totally blows up in his face! Or in Empire, when they assault Hoth, only to be beaten back, and fail to capture Han on Bespin.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
On how much Lucas did in advance:
I remember hearing as a 11-12 year old kid just after Jedi came out that the Vader got the way he was because he fell in a pit of lava. So at least the ending for Sith was known about twenty years in advance.
On kids in movies:
Sixth Sense was a good film. In fact, if the Sixth sense kid was picked for Phantom instead of the one they used, I believe that alone would have salvaged that movie.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
I think T2 still stands up.
It’s a typical “escaping from an invincible monster” movie, and if you look at it that way, it’s a pretty darn good film, although I will admit that the middle part where they blow up Cyberdyne is a bit of a digression from that.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
>> That’s not how EMPIRE really works out, is it? Unless you consider Luke going to rescue his friends as “aggresive”. > Yeah, like in [i]Sith[/i], when Palpatine tries to overthrow the Republic, and kill all the Jedi, and it like totally blows up in his face!
@Anthony – If the title of the second film isn’t enough, remember that Palpatine is ushered into power by the “good guys” (technically: by Jar Jar, whose purpose is actually symbolic). Lucas’ apparent obsession with making such a tightly symbolic piece of pop art might be one reason the first three films don’t really succeed on an emotional level: the director doesn’t appear to empathize with his leads.
http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/38/clones1.htm
This is an excellent article worth reading reading if you’re skeptical. It is dead-on. It’s no accident that Palpatine’s final seduction of Anakin takes place before a water ballet.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:22 am
“I mean, what is the best movie that exists in which a child plays a main character? I can’t think of any great ones”
ET? A Christmas Story? Grave of the Fireflies? Miyazaki’s entire ouevre?
T2 is still an awesome action movie, even though the effects are dated. It has a couple of awesome chase scenes. The scene where the T800 uses a crappy motor bike to flee from the T100 in a semi is classic, as well as the scene later on where they’re fleeing in a car, while the T1000 chases them on foot. Plus, the T1000 is one of the greatest villains in the history of film. He’s a shapeshifter that can impersonate anyone he touches, and an unstoppable killing machine.
October 31st, 2007 at 3:39 am
“I mean, what is the best movie that exists in which a child plays a main character? I can’t think of any great ones”
you cant front on the goonies, son.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:27 pm
There are too many discrepancies between the first Star Wars trilogy and the prequels for me to believe Lucas planned them in advance. In addition to the examples people have already mentioned, the Force went from being a mystical energy field to something you can blood test for, R2D2 forgot he could fly and shoot laser beams, and storm troopers went from varying sizes to clones.
October 31st, 2007 at 4:35 pm
“There are too many discrepancies between the first Star Wars trilogy and the prequels for me to believe Lucas planned them in advance.”
Heck, consider the differences between STAR WARS and the next two films. In SW, Darth Vader is taking orders from Grand Moff Tarkin and getting lip from a junior officer, like he’s just another agent of the Empire, not the Emperor’s right hand man. And there’s no hint the Emperor is anything more than a human political leader.
(I do love the explanation somebody came up with, that the destruction of the Death Star killed so many Imperials that Vader was vaulted up the chain of command. Which is invalidated by the prequels, of course.)
Mike
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