Today in Mosque Madness
Team Gingrich gets both dumber and more offensive chatting with Salon’s Justin Elliot:
Newt Ginrich’s spokesman told Salon in a phone interview today that building a mosque at Ground Zero “would be like putting a statue of Mussolini or Marx at Arlington National Cemetery.”
Asked what the 19th century German philosopher had ever done to America, Gingrich spokesman Rick Tyler said: “Well let’s go with Lenin then.” Tyler explained that he was talking about Lenin, who died in 1924, as representative of the Cold War and ideologies opposed to America.
And here we actually get to the nub of the problem. Joking about the exact scope of the proposed mosque exclusion zone the issue here is whether or not we should be defining Islam, as such, as an “ideolog[y] opposed to America” comparable to the ideology that powered the Soviet Union. I say “no,” Team Newt says yes. That’s both repugnant and strategically disastrous.
Meanwhile, the Anti-Defamation League embarrasses itself by abandoning the organization’s normal support for freedom of religion in a statement that condemns the anti-Muslim bigotry fueling the mosque’s opponents while endorsing their policy objectives. If the ADL wants to see Jewish/Muslim relations in America head down the toilet, this a sound strategy. Otherwise you might want to stick with J Street whose President, Jeremy Ben Ami, has his eye on the big picture:
The principle at stake in the Cordoba House controversy goes to the heart of American democracy and the value we place on freedom of religion. Should one religious group in this country be treated differently than another? We believe the answer is no.
As Mayor Bloomberg has said, proposing a church or a synagogue for that site would raise no questions. The Muslim community has an equal right to build a community center wherever it is legal to do so. We would hope the American Jewish community would be at the forefront of standing up for the freedom and equality of a religious minority looking to exercise its legal rights in the United States, rather than casting aspersions on its funders and giving in to the fear-mongerers and pandering politicians urging it to relocate.
American Jews have normally understood that minority groups in this country have an interest in sticking together. Today the right is going after mosques as un-American, but the principle of intolerance versus liberalism winds up implicating us all sooner or later.
78 Responses to “Today in Mosque Madness”
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July 30th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Y’know what else we should keep away from “Ground Zero”? Anything having to do with airplanes. No Boeing offices, for instance, and no travel agencies.
They just bring up bad memories for that neighborhood.
July 30th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
+1 for Team Newt for not Godwinning themselves right off the bat.
July 30th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
As I said on Twitter:
“#Mosque @ #groundzero seems like something that could easily be Coased out w/ property rights. 2 bad ppl r rent-seekers”
July 30th, 2010 at 2:48 pm
As I said on Twitter:
“#Mosque @ #groundzero seems like something that could easily be Coased out w/ property rights. 2 bad ppl r rent-seekers.”
July 30th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
Why do they hate our freedoms? Seriously. Freedom of religion is a pretty fundamental part of what makes America America. These clowns should be laughed out of town.
July 30th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
Gingrich, Palin et al are so contemptible on this issue that even using snark to make fun of them is uncomfortable.
This is simply outright evil and so unAmerican that they should be shunned by polite society. They are truly beyond the pale, they should be treated like grand wizards of the KKK.
July 30th, 2010 at 2:54 pm
You do know what Islam did to India? Why do you want US to suffer the same fate?
July 30th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Hatin’ the Mooslems is so 2001. All the kewl kidz are hating on the Mexicanos.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
Gregor – you do know what Islam did to preserve and advance science and math while Europe was in the depths of the Dark Ages? Oh wait, I bet you’re anti science too.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
So just to recap, the main right-wing grievances of the past couple of weeks have been:
1) An irrelevant black power group that didn’t actually intimidate voters at a municipal polling site.
2) An African-American bureaucrat who didn’t actually say something racist on tape several years ago.
3) The proposed construction of what’s not actually a mosque at what’s not actually Ground Zero.
You’d think that a few of the saner conservatives would have said enough already. And yet, lockstep.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
Like many conservatives, Newt Gingrich, in 1985, denounced President Reagan’s rapprochement with Gorbachev as potentially “the most dangerous summit for the West since Adolf Hitler met with Chamberlain in 1938 at Munich.”
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/08/chamberlainappeasement-cliche_31.html
If there’s anything to be learned from WWII, it’s this: there are Hitlers everywhere all the time, and if we don’t identify and hate enemies, one of the plethora of lurking Hitlers will arise and murder all the white conservatives.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
And yet, lockstep.
More like lemmings over the edge of the cliff.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
“You do know what Islam did to India? Why do you want US to suffer the same fate?”
Islam turned India into the richest and most powerful empire in the world. And under Akbar the Great, also the empire with the greatest religious freedom. That doesn’t sound so bad. Of course, later Mughal rulers would get greedy and put the empire so far into debt that they couldn’t pay their army. That made them ripe for the picking for England. But the greed and decadence of the later Mughal rulers is pretty much forbidden by Islam. Not that any Muslim leaders seem to care.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Prevented the development of tandori pork chops?
July 30th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Yes, it made India a bastion of democracy and diversity despite very real problems and violence when politicians stir up hatred (like Gingrich!). It made a society where Muslims celebrate Diwali and Hindus go to Iftaar parties. Yes, what a fate.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
To emphasize something Zach says in passing: Matt keeps calling this a ‘mosque’, but it’s not.
Similarly, it is also not a monument. The ‘wingers clearly are imagining some big imposing thing that people would stand in front of and have their picture taken, maybe with a plaque. (Yesterday some commenter here said we shouldn’t be ‘commemorating’ Islam.) It’s not a tourist attraction or public memorial. It’s a working building, people! If you have business there, you go in and go about your business. If you don’t, there’s no need to even notice it at all. The analogy to a statue of Lenin (or anyone) is nonsensical on this most basic of grounds.
It’s hard to discuss this sensibly when people are all fuzzy on what sort of structure we’re even talking about.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
“Well let’s go with Lenin then.”
When did we start putting statues in ANC of the leaders of countries we’ve invaded?
July 30th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Hmm, my comments must taste good today.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
I DO think Islam is a religion opposed to the ideas America was founded on. But we must always be true to those ideals and thus there is no question in my mind that the Cordoba center should be built since the builders have followed the law. My like or dislike of its construction is irrelevant.
That’s fucking Originalism Newty.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
You do know what Islam did to India? Why do you want US to suffer the same fate?
Right, because the building of one community center will cause hundreds of millions of Americans to become Muslim. God, you’re stupid.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
“You do know what Islam did to India? Why do you want US to suffer the same fate?”
Islam turned india into the richest and most powerful empire in the world. And under Akbar the Great, also the empire with the greatest religious freedom. That doesn’t sound so bad. Of course, later Mughal rulers would get greedy and put the empire so far into debt that they couldn’t pay their army. That made them ripe for the picking for England. But the greed and decadence of the later Mughal rulers is pretty much forbidden by Islam. Not that any Muslim leaders seem to care. (Random words at the end to fool the comment eater)
July 30th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
“Should one religious group in this country be treated differently than another? We believe the answer is no.”
While I agree with that sentiment, legal precedent is somewhat mixed on it. During Prohibition, an exemption was carved out for the sacramental use of wine by Catholics and Jews. When peyote and marijuana were banned, no such exemptions were granted for Native Americans and Rastafarians. Both Native Americans and Rastafarians went to the Supreme Court and won some exemptions, but some states don’t allow for those exemptions. So far, it’s not clear if the states must allow sacramental use for these substances. So one thing is clear: in practice, all religions are not created equal. The law clearly favors Christianity and Judaism over all others, even if the US Constitution does not. A similar issue came up with Santeria’s use of ritual slaughter. They had to go all the way to the US Supreme Court as well. And it has always been legal to slaughter animals, just not in a religious setting. The US has a long history of writing laws aimed at ‘undesirable’ religions. (random words at the end to fool the comment eater)
July 30th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
You do know what Islam did to India?
Built the Taj mahal.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
building a mosque at Ground Zero “would be like putting a statue of Mussolini or Marx at Arlington National Cemetery.”
Why, it’d be like putting a statue of the traitors Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson in Virginia, right within the siteline of where American soldiers died defending the US from their treachery!
Confederacy supporters: doesn’t it stab you in the heart, as it does ours throughout the mainstream? Peaceful Southerners, please refudiate.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
First they came for the Muslims, and I did not speak out, for I was a member of the ADL.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
You do know what Islam did to India? Why do you want US to suffer the same fate?
Once again, we see the conservative assumption that the US (not to mention Christianity) is desperately weak and vulnerable — as if one community center risks causing mass conversions and civil strife. Whereas liberals are confident the US could absorb such an introduction without any ill effect. Remind me, which side is anti-American?
July 30th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
Well, Marx did support the Union and opposed the confederacy.
And putting up a memorial to someone who was anti-confederate, especially in arlington (Home of Lee!), is a mortal insult to “real america”.
July 30th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
@IM: Well, Marx did support the Union and opposed the confederacy.
And putting up a memorial to someone who was anti-confederate, especially in arlington (Home of Lee!), is a mortal insult to “real america”.
Ouch! That’s gonna leave a mark!
July 30th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
Why do they hate our freedoms? Seriously. Freedom of religion is a pretty fundamental part of what makes America America. These clowns should be laughed out of town.
Never been to Salem, Massachusetts, have you. Gingrich is just taking part in a very old American tradition.
July 30th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
We should also create a political activities exclusion zone around the 9/11 site, because after all, it was political fervor (tied to a few other things) that led to the attacks. So no campaign offices, no think tanks, and while we’re at it, no books about the Middle East may be displayed or possessed within the 9/11 exclusion site.
Also, too, since many of the hijackers were Saudi nationals, no Saudi Arabians shall be allowed near the site, nor can their money be connected to any lease-holder or anyone who does business in the new buildings after their completion. And, with Saudi money being a key force behind Fox News, Fox won’t be allowed to report from anywhere near the 9/11 site.
Although you might be able to find something exactly like my ideas on a right-wing site, my ideas are sarcastic Swiftian riffs on the outrageous ideas behind the anti-Muslim fervor, used for rhetorical purposes. At the American Prospect, Adam Serwer puts it well today: “I learned a very important lesson in Hebrew School that I have retained my entire life. If they can deny freedom to a single individual because of who they are, they can do it to anyone. Someone at the ADL needs to go back to Hebrew School.”
July 30th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
Why do they hate the troops?
The whole strategy is to convince the Muslim world that we’re only fighting the terrorists, and we just want to bring them the light of freedom. Bush, to his credit, kept a lid on this sort of shit.
We should emphasize the strategic aspects more.
July 30th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
This is too easy, but…”First they came for the Muslims, and I did not object, for I was not a Muslim…”
July 30th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
@Zach
I believe that the issue that is being raised is that the Obama administration and the Democratic Party are not governing race relations well, and is charged with using the government agencies to favor African Americans, Hispanics and Muslims rather than governing equally. That, and that it is very unfair to demand that conservatives denounce race baiting whites when they themselves might be stoking racial tension for political advantage themselves.
Look, I understand that a lot of these charges based on exaggerated or bogus facts, but in general I think the Liberals are trying to fight the facts without fighting the charge and then engaging in the “I’m not racist, you are. No you are” tit for tat that solves nothing.
If you can’t answer those overall charges with an emphatic “NO, Obama is not doing that and neither are we”, then expect that there will be consequences. (And frankly, if those charges are true, then it could hardly be said that Liberals were very progressive at all.)
July 30th, 2010 at 4:50 pm
I hate Islam as much as the next xenophobe, but if you are going to let them in the country in the first place, you can hardly tell them they are not allowed to buy available property and use it as they wish (assuming it complies with applicable zoning laws).
July 30th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
First they came for the Muslims, and I did not speak out, for I was a member of the ADL.
That’s some industrial grade snark right there. Kudos!
July 30th, 2010 at 5:14 pm
#32 for the win. I surprised it took 32 comments. That saying has been so abused by the paranoid right wingers lately, but here’s a situation where it actually applies.
July 30th, 2010 at 6:07 pm
What’s extra sad is the scary level of social acceptability that anti-Islamic prejudice enjoys in our country, particularly in the media and in a lot of establishment discourse. FOX News, National Review, the Weekly Standard, Commentary, the New Republic, etc., across the conservative and neoliberal media spectrum, anti-Muslim bigotry in subtle and not so subtle forms is accepted and propagated. It’s partly this general media climate of hate and bigotry which has made space for the ravings of the loopy Gingrichian right. No other religious group in America today receives the degree of elite-sanctioned Hate that Muslims do, our crooked & bigoted Establishment deserves a big portion of the blame for the fact that Newt’s ravings are an accepted part of the conversation.
And yes, this is absolutely sick, unacceptable prejudice. Freedom of religion is a bedrock American principle. Given their whole self-narrative, it’s kind of amazing (if unsurprising) to see conservatives fighting against religious freedom.
July 30th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Thank goodness there are no prominent statues of Lenin anywhere in Lower Manhattan…
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/houston/67.redsquare.jpg
July 30th, 2010 at 8:00 pm
It is “madness”. Those people taking dogs and singing songs at Muslims have gone completely around the bend. This kind of mob hysteria is frightening to me, and I don’t scare easily. Even normally harmless people can be swept up in a wave of hysteria and do things they wouldn’t normally do. The last thing we need as a nation right now is voices in the media encouraging people to form scapegoating mobs. Never underestimate the human ability to make a bad situation worse. I suppose that keeping attention off the people responsible for this terrible economy has its perks for a few cruel bastards, but those cruel bastards aren’t concerned with national well-being no matter what they say.
July 30th, 2010 at 8:10 pm
If you’re going to endorse a Muslim cultural center two blocks from Ground Zero, I’m going to endorse a KKK chapter two blocks from the White House.
Fair is fair…
July 30th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
Hey Shooter
If you guys want to put your KKK chapter headquarters over there, go for it.
July 30th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
“I’m going to endorse a KKK chapter two blocks from the White House.
Fair is fair…”
Do what you want. I have no problem with it, but I obviously don’t endorse it. Although endorsing the KKK won’t exactly improve your image. Hopefully, you can get Beck and Limbaugh to go along with your plan. Hell, get Queen Sarah and Newt Gingrich to go along, too. Then it will be clear to America exactly where they stand. And it’s nice to know that you, Shooter242, are a supporter of the KKK. You deserve credit for taking that bold stance. Most racists are afraid to admit it.
July 30th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
Irony. Is. Dead.
July 30th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
Pooter also endorses putting oranges in apple pie.
Last time I checked, the KKK wasn’t a religion. Though if Pooter wants to claim his donations to the Klan as tax-deductible church tithes, that’s between him and the IRS.
July 30th, 2010 at 10:33 pm
Considering that you’ve gone out of your way to prove that you’re a racist piece of shit, no one is surprised that you’d support Klan.
July 30th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
Newt Gingrich wants the government to push people around based on their religion, because he wants to fight a religious war.
You know, like the Taliban.
July 31st, 2010 at 12:15 am
My, my. For a bunch people preaching tolerance the intolerance is palpable.
I’m sure that just like Muslims are good and bad, there are good klansmen and bad klansmen. Take Robert Byrd for instance. Apparently he was a good klansman. But how do you tell good klansmen from bad klansmen, when they’re wearing sheets? I don’t know. How do you tell good Muslims from bad Muslims? I don’t know…
Interestingly, I understand that this mosque is but a portion of a cultural center, celebrating all things Islamic.
Well, in that case we could have KKK cultural center smack in the heart of DC with a neon sign of a burning cross and Confederate flags festooned everywhere. Perhaps a heavily edited version of “Roots” playing on the hour, in the cinema. “Decorate your sheet” days perhaps?
It’s a cultural thing you know. Free speech and all that. But I have to say, I should think it would make the local African-American population a little discomfited. Oh well, who cares. The principle is what’s important.
July 31st, 2010 at 1:39 am
Shooter242,
You’re a f**king moron if you don’t realize the problems with your analogy between the Ku Klux Klan and Islam.
July 31st, 2010 at 2:01 am
– ga73@#15 says: “Yes, it made India a bastion of democracy and diversity”
The Indian people are proud of their secular and diverse democracy, but it is so inspite of Islam and not because of it. To see why, just look at the nasty Islamist and Jihadist cesspool that Pakistan, Republic of India’s cousin, turned into.
– Noor Jahan@#23 says: “Built the Taj mahal.”
Noor Jahan, I used to think that. But I am no longer sure after looking at this photographic evidence compiled by Stephen Knapp:
Taj Mahal: Was it a Vedic Temple?
The Photographic Evidence
A Presentation Assembled by Stephen Knapp, Available at http://www.stephen-knapp.com
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm
That compilation of photos strongly indicates that the Taj Mahal may have beein built on top of some pre-existing structure with Hindu motifs. The Indian government, upon Muslim groups’ prodding, refuses to allow access to scientists for investigating the inner parts of the Taj Mahal to perform carbon dating and other analyses, which alone indicates that they maybe hiding something that they don’t want the world to know.
A US-educated Indian scientist seems to have somehow found some access, and his recently published work determines that the Taj Mahal used measurement standards from the ancient Indian treatise (for metrology and other things) known as the Arthashastra (by Chanakya, an Indian genuius from the Mauryan era, 2nd-3rd century BC):
Arthashastra@Taj Mahal
New Insights on the Modular Planning of the Taj Mahal
Dr. R. Balasubramaniam
IIT, Kanpur, India.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23387140/Arthashastra-Taj-Mahal-IIT-Kanpur
I am not trying to undermine Muslim-Indians’ cultural contributions to India (or Muslim-Indian contributions to today’s India, which are aplenty in many fields): the Muslim-Indian culture that emerged during those centuries of Islamic invasions and conversions did contribute some nice things like Urdu poetry, Ghazals (songs), some wonderful dance genres, some variations of Indian cuisines etc.
However, there exist enough reasons for doubting the official/textbook story we have been told about Shah Jahan building the Taj mahal from scratch for his beloved wife Noor Jahan. That he may have had an existing structure (a Rajput palace with a temple in its compound is a possibility) retrofitted into the beautiful memorial is a distinct possibility, and the only way we can know the truth is if qualified scientists are allowed free access for investigating the Taj Mahal structure throughly.
July 31st, 2010 at 6:50 am
Isn’t Gingrich a Catholic? For most of American history, Protestant Americans held Catholic Americans and immigrants to be very suspect in their patriotism and loyalty. It really didn’t change till Kennedy was elected President.
July 31st, 2010 at 8:07 am
And you’re the same if you don’t recognize the ability of both to produce large amounts of anxiety when in proximity to certain national landmarks. Duh..
July 31st, 2010 at 8:07 am
And you’re the same if you don’t recognize the ability of both to produce large amounts of anxiety when in proximity to certain national landmarks. Duh…
July 31st, 2010 at 10:11 am
Robert Byrd QUIT and DENOUNCED the Klan, you disingenuous moron. THAT’S how you can tell he was good. The people who actually wore the robes are all bad.
Ever notice that the only racists ever denounced by the right are the repentant ones?
July 31st, 2010 at 10:12 am
You’re a f**king moron if you don’t realize the problems with your analogy between the Ku Klux Klan and Islam.
… and disingenuous twat if you pretend not to know that Byrd quit and denounced the Klan.
And a shitty American, if you endorse pushing people around for their religion.
July 31st, 2010 at 10:15 am
Peaceful people praying and doing business produce a large amount of anxiety, if their religion isn’t the same as Shooter’s.
Bed wetter. Grow a pair.
July 31st, 2010 at 10:23 am
Shooter242 says:
July 31st, 2010 at 12:15 am
My, my. For a bunch people preaching tolerance the intolerance is palpable.
Disagreement is not intolerance.
You can feel any way you want, but when you’re wrong, you’re wrong.
Wingnuts have so little understanding or concern about tolerance and intolerance that they literally cannot recognize them when they see them. “You’re all saying I’m wrong, huh? Well, that’s intolerance!”
Dumbass.
July 31st, 2010 at 10:45 am
This is what makes conservatives so hilarious, they somehow think the standard rules of logic don’t apply to them.
See, it doesn’t matter that Pooter’s analogy is hopelessly and irrevocably flawed, all that matters is that he is afraid of something. Priceless.
July 31st, 2010 at 10:53 am
ROFL. all that matters is that he is afraid of something. Priceless.
Isn’t that the motivator of climate change theology? Fear of what MIGHT happen? For that matter it’s the fuel for all religions in the world.
But hey, if you’re OK with a KKK chapter two blocks from the White House, I’ll get a message to Robert Byrd’s relatives, or better yet David Duke, giving them the OK.
July 31st, 2010 at 12:07 pm
Hey Matt – do you always refer to yourself as a “we”?
July 31st, 2010 at 12:24 pm
“This is what makes conservatives so hilarious, they somehow think the standard rules of logic don’t apply to them.”
They also think that copying a logical construction that was true for a certain set of propositions and conclusions can retroactively make their own propositions true and conclusions valid, regardless of the actual, independent truth value of those propositions.
P1: The KKK were terrorists.
P2: Some people are therefore afraid of the KKK.
C1: Therefore, building a KKK HQ will bother people.
P1a: Muslims are terrorists.
P2a: Some people are therefore afraid of Muslims.
C1a: Therefore, building an Islamic center will bother people.
Because the second syllogism follows the same reasoning of the first, Shooter thinks he can go back and declare P1a true.
Logic: UR NOT DOIN IT RITE.
July 31st, 2010 at 12:26 pm
“Isn’t that the motivator of climate change theology?”
I don’t know what this “theology” you mention is.
I do know that the motivator for concern about climate change is demonstrable scientific evidence.
Unlike your specious claim that Islam must be a terroristic organization like the Klan, based on nothing buy all the soiled underwear you’ve piled up.
July 31st, 2010 at 2:03 pm
You beat me to it, but yes, exactly. Again, Pooter clearly doesn’t understand how analogies work.
Not only that, but both propositions represent a violation of the excluded middle fallacy. It’s possible to be a KKK member and not be a terrorist. It’s possible to be a Muslim and not be a terrorist, and so forth.
I couldn’t possibly care less where the KKK tried to build anything. They’ve, and their views, have become so marginalized it wouldn’t matter at all. Besides, the point is about the basic freedom of religion, which in no way applies to an analogy about the KKK. Which is what has went right over your head.
July 31st, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Actually Mr. Smith you’re a little late. Why not take the time to look at #47. Tsk.
July 31st, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Ever notice that the only time Republicans ever criticize someone affiliated with the Klan is when they quit and denounce the group and its beliefs?
Why is that?
July 31st, 2010 at 2:31 pm
fostert: “Islam turned India into the richest and most powerful empire in the world.”
That’s not an accurate claim, foster.
India was already rich, powerful and sophisticated (for the times) before the Islamic invaders struck it around 1000 AD.
Using the standard historical GDP estimates (by Prof. Angus Maddison), India had a 33% share of the world GDP around 0 AD, about 30% in 1000 AD, about 25% in the 1500-1750, and that share fell down to 3% by the time the British left in 1947.
There was no significant increase or decrease in India’s estimated GDP during the Moghal rule (1526-1707AD), but there was a notable drop from 30% to 25% during 1000-1500 AD while the other Islamic invasions (Sultanates etc) were underway in North India.
July 31st, 2010 at 3:33 pm
If the Republican party wanted to build its national headquarters next to Ground Zero, I’m reasonably sure that Mr. Yglesias would have a shit fit about it. If that were the case, he would be readily able to come up with a whole host of reasons why such an act would be tasteless, even if if the construction and the intended use were both perfectly legal.
I would hope that no religious or political movement would seek to exploit Ground Zero for its own purposes. Fortunately, that doesn’t seem to be happening with this particular project — for one, it’s far enough away from the site to avoid that taint. But if it was exploitative, then a negative response to it would be understandable and not necessarily racist.
Speaking of exploitation, Mr. Yglesias is indulging in his share of it with these posts. It’s a cultural center, not a mosque, and it’s disingenuous, exploitative and factually wrong to claim that it is a mosque. If Newt didn’t exist, Mr. Yglesias would feel compelled to invent him.
July 31st, 2010 at 3:37 pm
If the Republican party wanted to build its national headquarters next to Ground Zero, I’m reasonably sure that Mr. Yglesias would have a shit fit about it.
Silly RW: the national GOP only goes to New York for conventions. And hookers.
July 31st, 2010 at 3:50 pm
If the Republican party wanted to build its national headquarters next to Ground Zero, I’m reasonably sure that Mr. Yglesias would have a shit fit about it. If that were the case, he would be readily able to come up with a whole host of reasons why such an act would be tasteless, even if if the construction and the intended use were both perfectly legal.
I’m reasonably sure you are 100% wrong about Mr. Yglesias’s hypothetical reaction.
July 31st, 2010 at 4:25 pm
This whole conversation is based on language being used to obfuscate meaning. The community sanctioned structure is NOT A MOSQUE and is NOT AT GROUND ZERO. People are working themselves into a righteous froth over a tissue of lies. Assiduously put forth by people who have nothing substantive to offer but need public attention. Since when do conservative “values” consist of telling a community what they can and can’t build? We have a process for deciding ourselves what to build in New York City and it working fine in this case, thank If you don’t know that the not-a-mosque community center is two blocks from Ground Zero and therefore in practically another neighborhood by NYC standards then you don’t know enough to comment. Not that the delusional ever count on reason and knowledge when they get to commenting. There is a great old American tradition called “butt out and mind your own business”. Right up there with freedom of religion and local control of local issues.
July 31st, 2010 at 7:29 pm
Local control of issues? That would be the local control leading to nothing but a huge hole in the ground after nearly ten years? Tsk.
Perhaps if you locals got your act together, this wouldn’t be an issue.
July 31st, 2010 at 7:30 pm
Local control of issues? That would be the local control leading to nothing but a huge hole in the ground after nearly ten years? Tsk.
Perhaps if you locals got your act together, this wouldn’t be an issue…
July 31st, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Local control of issues? That would be the local control leading to nothing but a huge hole in the ground after nearly ten years? Tsk.
Perhaps if you locals got your act together, this wouldn’t be an issue….
July 31st, 2010 at 8:00 pm
RW says:
July 31st, 2010 at 3:33 pm
If the Republican party wanted to build its national headquarters next to Ground Zero, I’m reasonably sure that Mr. Yglesias would have a shit fit about it.
*facepalm*
The RNC headquarters is next to the United States Capitol. Yglesian shit-fit not yet observed.
Local control of issues? That would be the local control leading to nothing but a huge hole in the ground after nearly ten years?
Uh, no. Control of the WTC is divided between the state, the Port Authority, and the guy who owned the twin towers. There is no local control.
July 31st, 2010 at 8:40 pm
The RNC headquarters is next to the United States Capitol. Yglesian shit-fit not yet observed.
As usual, you miss the point. At least you’re consistent.
July 31st, 2010 at 9:13 pm
[...] question isn’t Why is Newt Gingrich such an intolerably ignorant idiot? so much as Why do liberal intellectuals continue to tolerate his ignorance and evade serious [...]
August 1st, 2010 at 1:45 pm
These Gingrich/Palin dinosaurs need to understand that Islam is a wonderful religion. A religion of peace. A religion of progress. A religion that values the equal rights of women and condemns violence in all its forms.
Is that about right? Do I have the general theme of you commenters nailed down correctly?
What I really think:
1) opposition to this mosque is silly, counterproductive and self-defeating.
2) OPPOSING this opposition by trumpeting the wonderful civilized progress of the Muslim world in the 1200s or some such (while EUROPE was in the DARK AGES!!!) is just about a direct analog to Gingrich and Palin in terms of stupidity.
Oddly enough, the stupidity of Palin has some sort of theoretical grounding in reality. (Islam in fact being generally a violent and nihilistic cult inimical to all the values that you dilettantes take for granted.)
Whereas the stupidity of the Yglesias commenters emanates from their residence in a kind of dream world in which they probably imagine they could travel to Gaza and walk around for more than a day or two without ending up beheaded on the internet.
So to the commenters I say this: get off your fixed-gear bicycles. Get out of your parents’ basements. Shed your ironic pre-distressed tee shirts. Join the real world and stop trying to defend the indefensible. Because a neofascist dullard like Sarah Palin opposes something does not mean you ninnies must immediately attempt to validate it by ignoring facts as obvious as the Elvis Costello glasses on your collective faces.
Love,
Black 27.
Proud Anti-Hipster Troll.
August 1st, 2010 at 1:47 pm
The RNC headquarters is next to the United States Capitol. Yglesian shit-fit not yet observed.
As usual, you completely miss the point.
August 1st, 2010 at 2:40 pm
So shooter, you believe that the principles of emotion should come before the constitution, am I right? That is mob rule, not rule of law. While im hoping that your support for the KKK is a snark, dont you see that the exact same argument was used pro-segregation? That blacks on white buses would cause fear among the women and children?
The real issue here is that there is obviously a play going sponsored by various factions to create a momentum of masshysteria against Islam. Its kind of funny that its the same ones hawking for an attack on Iran thats doing the rabbel-rousing. But hey, if Palin wins the election for president, at least I will get to see Armageddon in my lifetime! Think its time to go hindu, they always have a backup-life…